Thom Hartmann - How Stupid Has the Democratic Party Become?

[Ferd Berfel]

Republicans haven’t taken over red states; Democrats have lost them by not running as real Democrats.

That’s my big takeaway from Alec MacGillis’ fascinating look into the biggest political mystery of our time: why poor white people in red states are not bothering to turn out to vote, leaving the field to Republicans elected by more affluent whites in those states.

There a lot of theories as to why this happens.

http://www.thomhartmann.com/blog/2015/11/how-stupid-has-democratic-party-become

[Kalidurga]

1. It's good to know he is still reading DU.

[ChiciB1]

59. I Try To Watch Him Every Day, But If I Can't I Have My ROKU

and can listen later. He's always quoting someone from here, names that I see all the time. Apparently he's checking out DU during his show all the time.

I LOVE him!

[upaloopa]

2. I can't stand to listen to Thom Hartman's show

right now. He is so in the tank for Bernie he is even making up shit.

Today he said, "Bernie is leading in several states, New Hampshire for instance."

Then the Bernie supporter phone calls drive me up a wall. They call in with their facebook page names as if facebook will elect Bernie. That's preaching to the choir.

I think like DU things will get back to normal after the primaries.

[bigwillq]

5. Then don't listen.

Problem solved.

[Rockyj]

6. Actually, Thom...

doesn't allow any real negative talk about Hillary, and he encourages his audience to vote for her if she becomes our nominee.

[ChiciB1]

60. Says It Almost Every Single Day! I Watch, I Know! n/t

[GusBob]

7. I listen. I like his show

But you are right, normally he is very careful with his words. He is a stickler for accuracy. Lately he has been bending the truth a bit....

[Cleita]

49. What an out and out fabrication. Any time Thom has given out wrong information is because his source

got it wrong, he has corrected it and loudly. This doesn't happen very often because he has really good fact checkers on his staff. If you think he's bending the truth, it's probably because what you think is the truth hasn't been all that true.

[NurseJackie]

9. Agreed ...

I listened and tried to figure out what all the fuss was about. But it was something that just did not appeal to me.

[DianeK]

13. whoa...

you are sounding like you are in a cult or something..seriously...get a grip!

[leftofcool]

16. Bernie is not leading in any state.

[liberal_patriot_md]

34. You do realize why he is "in the tank" don't you?

Sanders has been a regular on his show almost from the start. Not only a regular, but the segment he did - Brunch with Bernie - was Sanders taking unscreened calls from listeners and responding to any and all topics.

Can you imagine another politician doing that?

Maybe also he simply thinks that Sanders has positions that fall more in line with his beliefs.

[Plucketeer]

48. That's really a great point.

I'd never considered whether any other hopefuls would field unscreeened calls. Hoo Boy! No script - No way!

[dsc]

53. O'Malley has been on his show at least once doing just that

something that something called research could have ascertained.

[Plucketeer]

55. He and Bernie

would be almost indiscernible in their replies. But now take a corporate lackey.... I'm not gonna look to see the who and when of Thom's guests unless I wanna make a specific and detailed point. Thanks

[liberalmike27]

35. Because

He knows Bernie is the only, and best Democrat in the race.

He will regularly say Hillary would still be 1000 times better than any Republican.

Let's face it, Sanders is definitely a better Democrat, at least in his appeal to the poorest part of the Democratic voters, who are the base. Of course that isn't Hillary's target demographic, which is upper-middle to middle class, white collar workers.

[Cleita]

46. Since no radio station carries him in our area, why would you have to listen?

It takes some effort to get him over satellite or on stream. btw, he had some really nice things to say about Hillary today.

[Rockyj]

64. So this is OKAY?

&feature=youtu.be
All I can say is the Hillary Camp must be running afraid and sadly it will get worst.
She's BENT on dividing us...
BTW please contact this station!

[AgingAmerican]

71. lol

You poor thing, you! Thom is right. The third way® experiment is a failure.

Given the choice between a real Republican and a Democrat that acts like a Republican, voters, especially Independents will vote for the REAL Republican every time.

[brooklynite]

3. Would a "real Democrat" have won Louisiana"?

[BootinUp]

8. Thats what I love about this better strategy crap

first off its the same netroots meme thats been going around since heck, more than 12 years. Yet there is not a single example of its successful use in all that time. Never mind that it makes absolutely no sense anyways.

[liberalmike27]

36. Been so long

Since a real Democrat actually ran, anywhere in the South it is hard to say. We are dealing with trying to break through a bunch of brainwashing that has stained the voting population of "should be democrats," with right-wing ideas, and a nearly masochistic bent, of self-denial. It's a sort of "You must vote for these people, who will f**k you over," vibe. Many masochistic southerners will go right along with it, just like most southerners who didn't even own slaves went and fought for all of the huge, plantation owners, who did.

[Recursion]

68. Bullshit. Vallian Senegal ran for LA Senate in 2014 as a strongly progressive Democrat

and received one quarter of one percent of the vote in the jungle primary.

[MFrohike]

58. Heh

Maybe not, but there's a ton of Blue Dogs who couldn't even win competitive districts with the full support of Steve Israel and the DCCC.

[GusBob]

4. Why does "food stamp recipients" = democrats?

Like automatically give people welfare they turn Democrats, or are they already Democrats?

[liberalmike27]

38. Those unfortunate people

Who find themselves temporarily on public assistance, are certainly part of the base of the Democratic Party, or should be. But the Lion's share of the people who should be Democratic voters are the people who work week to week, who barely make enough to survive, perhaps a little more. At least economically, if you're closer to the bottom, if after a few months or less you'd be out of money, perhaps kicked out of your home or apartment if you lost your job, then you should economically be voting for Democrats.

The social issues are great, not that you having power over women you don't know, and their reproductive rights puts any money in your pocket, or if you think you are voting for a black, or gay, or Hispanic hating guy does anything at all for you--or a gun lover, for that matter. All that stuff you can still do, but vote for the Democrat that will steady your life, should you hit bumps along the way, like almost everyone does.

Besides, the only party that ever actually does anything to help people get jobs, and move off of Welfare, food stamps, or other forms of assistance, are Democrats. Clearly tax cuts for the rich have done nothing at all to change any of that. We've been trying it for decades now, and all Rich republicans do it create jobs in third world countries, and deposit money into their accounts.

[w0nderer]

51. as 'working poor'

i have run into a fair (if not big) share of 'R' voters

because 'your' ss check..isn't welfare...theirs is!
because 'your' food stamps ..aren't welfare...welfare is them over there..outta my taxes!


and so forth

divide and conquer is running wild in the usa

[LiberalArkie]

76. Quote from the Bernmeister

“They told white workers who were earning pennies an hour, ‘Hey, you think you’re in trouble, but you’re better off than the blacks,'” he said. “And they told straight people, ‘You’re better off than those gay people.’ And they pitted men against women. It’s always playing one group against another. That’s how the rich got richer while everybody else was fighting each other. Our job is to build a nation in which we all stand together.”

[passiveporcupine]

67. The more money you make the more you pay in taxes

Unless you have an accountant who can help you avoid paying a lot. So the more you make, the more appealing the republican platform of "lower taxes and smaller government" is.

Unfortunately, you lose all your compassion for poor people when you become a republican. It's just the way they are wired.

This country has a problem with taxes. Too many people feel like they are being robbed of their money, and they don't want to pay for social needs. Look at how hard it is to get people to pay more money for local schools...they really have to fight for things they need.

In Norway, they "pay their taxes with joy"...because they appreciate the services they get in exchange. We have bad ass attitudes here.

When people fall on hard times and need assistance, even if they were republican before, they suddenly realize how important those services are, and it probably does swing them to the democratic party. They learn to have a little empathy. The party of ALL the people (even the poor), and the party of compassion.

Thom makes an excellent point here:

It’s time for Democrats to embrace and run on their party’s core values, the kind of values represented by people like Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Lyndon Johnson, and Bernie Sanders, who up until recently didn't even call himself a Democrat!

That’s the only way Democrats can hope to win elections in red states again.

It really is that simple, because, as Harry Truman once said, “Given a choice between a Republican and a Democrat who acts like a Republican; the voters will pick the Republican every time!”

Third way Domocrats are the reason many dems or poor have given up on voting at all. And because of that, they probably don't participate in polls, and they don't watch ads or debates. They need an outreach group to try to encourage them that there is finally a real Democrat running again and it's time to get back in the game. They are so tuned out because they think nobody represents them any more.

And for Hill supporters, if you have trouble listening to Thom, maybe it's because you are so in the bag for Hillary that you no longer care about the people she does not represent. The poor.

[rhett o rick]

10. Big Money (like Goldman-Sachs) has coopted the leadership of the Democratic Party.

Those supporting Sen Sanders recognize the we the people have to take back our Party and then take back our democracy.

[Enthusiast]

22. Correct.

[Phlem]

23. Spot On.

[sadoldgirl]

11. I think that he may

have forgotten about the "Southern Strategy".
And, unfortunately, it may not just exist in
the South anymore.

[firebrand80]

12. We need to run centrist candidates in Red States

Obama is hurting Dems in red states because he's center-left. I love Obama, and I'm not saying being center-left is a bad thing, but it does have negative consequences in some instances.

[mmonk]

15. Like Hagan in my state? She lost.

Last edited Tue Nov 24, 2015, 10:46 AM - Edit history (2)

The right wingers left the party in the south long ago. Why would we want one to represent us?

[firebrand80]

17. Doesn't mean they'll always win

They'll still probably lose a majority of the time, but it gives us a lot better shot.

The idea that Dems are going to win by running liberal candidates in conservative states is just silly.

[dsc]

32. Hagan is no right winger

she is pro choice, favored marriage equality, voted for the ACA, voted for gun control, and a whole host of other things. Also she very nearly won and likely would have if not for Ebola and ISIS.

[liberalmike27]

40. Says a lot

That you immediately list a rift of social issues, as the only defining characteristics of what comprises a "lefty" democrat. Yet you totally omit all economic issues.

That's a little like eating green beans at a thanksgiving meal, and leaving out the turkey, the mashed potatoes, the deviled eggs, and the pies.

The core things that make you liberal aren't social issues. They're lie garnish, yea, we agree with them. But they don't pay payments on your car, your utility bills, the rent, save money, send you on vacations, keep you alive and steady between jobs. They aren't a $15 minimum wages, being pro-gay doesn't' create good jobs here in America or levy against trade agreements that deliberately ship whole factories away to third world countries, making unemployment higher, and inevitably dragging already low salaries down further, and increasing the disparity of wealth.

You define what is wrong with the modern neoliberal, what is wrong with Hillary, what has been wrong with Bill, and Barack, even Carter to some extent. Since Johnson, there really has been no real Democrat. It's time we got a Democrat back into office, that puts the meal back into thanksgiving. Social issues are great, but they don't pay the bills.

[dsc]

43. glad my rights are garnish to you

BTW you know all those economic progressives you love from history, a whole fuck lot of them got into office with gay votes who voted for them despite the fact they didn't support us much, if at all. Again, glad to know my rights are so trivial to you. Oh and one other thing, the ACA, on what planet is that merely a social issue? Posters like you are why gay posters here are often disgusted with Sanders supporters.

[liberalmike27]

65. Just so you know

I support all of those social issues.

I'm just saying their importance is minimal in comparison to the economic damage we've had inflicted, by decades of no focus on populism.

And if you didn't know this, other divisions become more minimal, when the economic situation improves for people. Keep people fighting other battles, and maybe they won't feel you picking their pockets.

[winter is coming]

70. I disagree. Social issues aren't "minimal". Economic issues are important, but so are social ones.

The notion that we can't pursue both is often put forward by people unwilling to advocate for both, or sometimes either. It's a false choice.

[dsc]

74. Whether one can is irrelvant

what is relevant is whether one will. Sanders in his career has shown he won't. Yes he casts good votes but does nothing else at all in regards to these issues. For him it is all economics all the time. This supporter channels him rather well in that regard.

[Kentonio]

77. You consider making strong political speeches in support of issues to be nothing?

Even when they are made far in advance of public opinion, at great political cost to the politician, because he genuinely wants to help move public opinion in the right direction? That is nothing?

[dsc]

78. but he didn't do that, that is my point

He said nothing, not a god damned thing in favor of marriage equality prior to his state enacting it in 2009. I have asked over and over and over and over again and over and over and over again I got nada, nihil, not a god damned thing.

[Kentonio]

79. So that negates the decades of support for gay rights reaching back to the 1970's?

I can understand being annoyed that he didn't jump in on gay marriage as early as some, but how many people were earlier supporters on gay issues long before marriage was even on the radar? Genuine question.

[dsc]

80. I can find no words or deeds at all other than a pride proclamation

for which he was 1 of 5 votes and the letter in the 1970's. Burlilngton didn't have any laws banning discrimination in housing or employment nor did he advocate for such laws to give one example. In comparison Hillary led the effort at State to give as many rights go gay couples as she could given DOMA. Sanders is all economy all the time and no time or care for anything else. That is the man's career.

[Kentonio]

83. His support was a bit more than just a letter and a proclamation to be fair..

http://www.queerty.com/32-years-before-marriage-equality-bernie-sanders-fought-for-gay-rights-20150719

In honesty though I don't think its been a huge part of his past career. I think its fair to say though that like many other issues, its one that when it has come up he's pretty much always come down on the side of fairness and equality and tried to provide what support he could. Economy is central to his beliefs, but there's a reason he's always been considered a wide eyed radical by his opponents, he's never been afraid to speak out on social issues.

[dsc]

85. No it pretty much hasn't

Frankly he wouldn't lead on this issue at all if he were elected unless he acted differently as President than he has in any other level of government he has been in. I could be wrong, frankly Obama was a pleasant surprise on this issue late in his first term and into his second, so anything is possible.

[noiretextatique]

86. and the irony is: drumroll: hillary was against marriage equity

before she was for it isn't it INSANE to see supposed democrats arguing that the person who has been consistent about social AND economic issues is somehow lesser than the person who constantly wafffles...on everything?

[zeemike]

50. Well said.

The problem is that they have gotten us to trade off economic issues for social ones...and insist that if you want one you hate the other...the false dichotomy plan.

And I suspect that those who only care about the social ones don't have economic problems...and as long as they get theirs they don't give a shit about the rest.

[dsc]

52. again thanks for agreeing my rights are garnish

all I can say if your attitude and the attitude of others like you are why I wouldn't vote for Sanders in a primary is a million years.

[zeemike]

61. Well that is the perfect example of the false dichotomy.

Because economic justice concerns me it means I garnish your rights...and that don't even make sense.
And you cast me and others as the enemy...which makes even less sense.
Unless of course you don't care about anything but yourself and what you want.

[liberalmike27]

66. ZeeMike Makes a Good Point

You quickly stated something I clearly did not mean, and inveighed against it.

It's been pretty common for Hillary "supporters," to accuse Sanders of being gay-bashing, racist, and Misogynist, when in fact he's been supporting all those issues AND POPULISM ever since before he began his political career as a Mayor. And this was way back when Hillary was still a Goldwater girl.

Certainly you guys are being disingenuous.

[dsc]

73. you typed the words

you own them. you also called them minimal in a later post. Words have meaning even when typed by you.

[dsc]

72. you said well said

to a post that explicitly said that gay rights and other social issues are garnish. You typed the words, now own them.

[zeemike]

81. Well yes I do own them

And I am not ashamed to agree with this...

The core things that make you liberal aren't social issues. They're lie garnish, yea, we agree with them. But they don't pay payments on your car, your utility bills, the rent, save money, send you on vacations, keep you alive and steady between jobs. They aren't a $15 minimum wages, being pro-gay doesn't' create good jobs here in America or levy against trade agreements that deliberately ship whole factories away to third world countries, making unemployment higher, and inevitably dragging already low salaries down further, and increasing the disparity of wealth.

What is shameful to me is that some liberals would shit all over this to continue the status quo on economic issues...which effects 90% of the people gay and strait.
I can only conclude it comes from those in the 10% who like things just the way they are.

[dsc]

82. so you think my rights are garnish

those are the words you think are fine. So why again, should I not call you out on them?

[zeemike]

84. If you think your rights are the only thing that matters then yes.

They are garnished. So call me out as if I had committed some unforgivable sin for having an opinion that differs from yours.

If there is a single issue that defines what a Democrat is then we are indeed a week party. And will continue to lose to the GOP as we have in the past decade.

[zeemike]

18. Obama by his own admision is a moderate Republican

In the Democratic party...not center left.

But there lies the problem, things have been redefined and by doing it shifts everything to the right.
And the right triangulates by calling Obama a leftist, socialist marxist...and we come to accept a moderate Republican position as the left.

But that's the third way.

[Enthusiast]

24. I will not accept the concept of a moderate Republican equaling a center left Democrat.

Nonsense of this magnitude will not fly with a huge majority of us on DU.

It isn't fresh thinking, it is dishonesty.

[liberalmike27]

42. Moderate Republicans?

Where are they? Was that the two guys who tried to run as Democrats last time, and have already withdrawn because we said "we don't need no stinkin' republicans running heah."

[Phlem]

26. The Third Way,

the Democratic version of socialism for the 1%. Always has been, always will be.

[Phlem]

30. We did all this during the last midterms.

Where have you been?

And we lost miserably back then too.

[Juicy_Bellows]

63. Welp, now I don't have to reply directly to them.

So I'll answer your question to them for you.

I was on the moon!

(seriously, let's run centrists against pubs in red states - whoa boy)

[ozone_man]

31. Obama isn't center left

He's center right, firmly in the corporate wing like Hillary.

He's not a real Democrat in the FDR sense. That is why he can't carry red states. Might as well vote for a real Republican over Republic can lite. Bernie represents the real change that Obama spoke of, but never intended to enact. His campaign contributors were the same as Hillary Clinton's. Top 10 Wall Street firms.

[Todays_Illusion]

14. The Democratic Party is so stupid they are trying to run Bernie Sanders out of the race and

the entire propaganda operation pretending to be news is helping.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/15/us/examining-who-runs-the-united-states.html?smid=re-share&_r=1&module=ArrowsNav&contentCollection=U.S.&action=keypress&region=FixedLeft&pgtype=article

The part about the Republicans working to erase Trump and the Democratic shoving Bernie Sanders is about two thirds of the way down.

[Enthusiast]

19. I would not cross the street to vote for a right leaning "Democrat".

And I'll be the judge of what constitutes right leaning even when they refer to themselves as centrist.

[marym625]

21. +100!

[Phlem]

27. Bingo!

I stand with you.

[marym625]

20. K&R!

I was planning on posting this tonight. Great article.

[Enthusiast]

25. K&R! This post should have hundreds of recommendations!

Let's discuss this.

[LWolf]

28. He's right.

Republicans haven’t taken over red states; Democrats have lost them by not running as real Democrats.

And off go the neo-liberal wing losing those states to throw him under the bus.

[Phlem]

29. K&R!!!!

Amen.

[stupidicus]

33. it's been very painful to helplessly watch, and battling 3rdwayers

isn't really much different than battling their rightwing cousins.

You can lead them to facts/the truth, but you can't make them think.

[Snow Leopard]

37. There are a lot

Of poor people that lean republican. They view democrats has giving hand outs.

[cer7711]

39. "Stupid" isn't the right word. Better words & phrases for this phenomenon would be . . .

Last edited Mon Nov 23, 2015, 09:41 PM - Edit history (1)

. . . "corrupt", "co-opted", "bankster-bought", "FDR amnesiacs", "blue-dog plutocratic pets", and "working-class hostile/middle-class indifferent."

Or as certain members of the Democratic elite (having learned all the wrong lessons from the Reagan era) might tell us with an unctuous smile whilst nervously eyeing their fat, corporate-padded bank accounts: "We're the adults in the room, honey. We're third-way, triangulating, less-is-more, eternally-'evolving' Wall Street toadies who know how to get things done, by god! Don't you know that Wall Street is where the power is? Stop asking for a glitter-farting unicorn (single-payer, affordable college education, a return to 1950s tax rates, re-institution of job-protecting tariffs, enforcement of the Sherman Antitrust Act, restoration of Glass-Steagall) and sit the fuck back down, Mr. Whiner, until ordered to vote again."

What contempt they must have for the (according to a recent study) near 50% of US households who can't weather a $400 unexpected expense without it turning into a major crisis! It's our fault, you see, that we work harder and harder while falling farther and farther behind. We're just too f---ing stupid, lazy, unlucky and/or hopelessly under-skilled to thrive in this new down-sized, corporate-welfare-driven, too-big-to-fail, "free trade" (hah!), "right-sized", worker-hostile economy.

http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20150607/PC05/150609735/1013/could-you-cover-400-expense

It's democratic socialism or mass social upheaval--one way or another, revolution is coming . . .

[BuelahWitch]

41. They were stupid to drop the 50 State Strategy

Sometimes I think they don't want to win so they can whine to our faces and laugh at us behind closed doors.

[fbc]

44. Spoiler Alert:

very stupid

[KoKo]

45. The "History" is all here on DU!

[ut oh]

47. When one feels like their vote doesn't count for anything....

why bother to take the time to vote? Especially if that means, leaving work early/showing up late, or having to take time off (no pay) to do it. People, especially the poor, are too swamped in trying to stay afloat to get out and vote.

Besides, when one looks at a system that has been co-opted by the wealthy to favor the wealthy, it further disenfranchises voters...

The fact that the electoral college means that urban residents' votes count less than rural voters also adds to that disenfranchisement.

Leaders who are obviously bought out by the highest bidder and knowing that as an individual your vote means little unless you are in swing state...

To add to that:

Voter ID laws
Removal of weekend voting
Shortening the hours of polling places
Other tactics that make voting more difficult

All this leads to reductions in interest in voting and harms our democracy greatly. Having Dems that are GOP-lite, just adds to the pile.

[Agnosticsherbet]

54. Louisiana Democrat John Bel Edwards wib running as a pro-life Democrat.

Is he a real Democrat.

Louisiana governor's race election results: 7 interesting facts

Voting on actual election day in the primary and runoff was basically the same -- around 30 percent. But early voting jumped 36,000 votes from the primary to the runoff, accounting for 92 percent of all increased voting from the primary to the runoff, according to Ed Chervenak, a political scientist at the University of New Orleans that studies election returns.

An interesting take on what it really takes to win as a Democrat. And it is not because we have a stupid party.

What it takes to win is find a Democrat who appeals to the people in a state rather than apply an ideological test on a candidate.

I don't agree with John Bel Edwards Pro-life stand. But I welcome him as a Democrat.

[OkSustainAg]

56. I am a blue bastion in a red state.

The reason people keep voting against there own best interest is the have accepted the crazy talking point that everyone is punching Jesus in the face. They are bigots and haters. They believe they are not successfully rich because they are not doing it right. I go into the doughnut shop or the parts store and hear the crap all the time. Even in the schools. The Democratic party in Oklahoma see themselves as just like republicans. We have Democratic candidates running adds with them at the gun range.

[ColesCountyDem]

62. Oklahoma is the Southern Baptist's answer to Utah and the Mormons.

Both are thinly-veiled theocracies.

[rjsquirrel]

57. Not stupid enough

to buy the GOLD he's shilling to end of days typeS.

[MaggieD]

69. LOL!

Don't bet on that.

[Scuba]

75. Proved right here in Wisconsin, where Squat Wanker won 3 times against corpo-Dems while ...

... the "Madison lesbian liberal" won a US Senate seat.

Lesson: Run a corpo-Dem and you lose; run a progressive and you win.