Hillary Supporters' strategy becomes clear

[HerbChestnut]

Over these last couple of weeks the tone from some of the Hillary camp has changed. Sure, they've always been a bit condescending and superior, but lately they've employed new tactics to distract from the real issues.

1. Distort Bernie's positions, which includes telling half truths. An example is the current healthcare debate. Bernie wants to install a universal healthcare system based on Medicare, but all you hear from the Hillary camp is, "Bernie wants to raise taxes on the middle class!!" Well, I suppose this is true, but it doesn't tell the whole story. Bernie's healthcare legislation would impose a 2.2% tax on people earning <$250,000, and the tax would scale from there in a progressive fashion. However, the tax increase would be more than offset by eliminating private insurance payments and end up *saving* tax payers money overall. Funny how that last bit never seems to get mentioned.

2. Claim Bernie won't be able to get anything passed in Congress and that he's being dishonest to the American people. This one is just sad because it's a self fulfilling prophecy and partially explains why we don't have a more progressive government. If you aren't willing to vote for the candidate that wants a progressive agenda, how do you ever expect to get one passed through Congress? It's not that complicated.

3. Cite poll after poll after poll claiming Bernie can't win and his supporters are just wasting their time. First of all, it's never a waste of time to support a candidate you sincerely believe in. I know enthusiasm is something lacking from the Clinton campaign, but some people believe that we can make this country a better place. Electing Bernie is a big step toward achieving that goal. Secondly, it would be foolish to give up 2 months out from the first votes being cast. The race is tighter than anybody thought it would be, and there's still a long ways to go.

4. Ignore facts at the convenience of their own beliefs. It's called cognitive dissonance, and boy is it ripe these days. Never mind the fact that Clinton's agenda and tone these last few weeks has echoed Republicans (Invoking 9/11 during the debate, campaigning against Universal Healthcare because it "raises taxes on the middle class&quot , but they pretend that Bernie doesn't offer any concrete policy proposals and that even if he did he doesn't offer a way to pay for them. Look, we're all adults here. We can all do our own research. The fact is, Bernie has offered detailed policy plans on a number of issues and ways to pay for them. I posted a handful on this very board about a month ago, all of which came directly from his website. If you were really concerned about what Bernie is proposing and how he intends to pay for it then you'd be out there looking up the information. It is readily available.

5. Turn anything Bernie related into something negative. There was a post yesterday about Bernie eating lunch, and a Hillary supporter came in just to post something derogatory. Seriously.

[Orsino]

1. This message board isn't a battle to be won.

The real fight's outside.

[HerbChestnut]

3. You're right

I just needed to blow off some steam. But that said, if there's any lurkers or undecideds out there who might be influenced by what's said here then they need to know what's going on.

[Hortensis]

20. Herb, actually Hillary's mostly focusing on the GOP candidates.

The black cloud threatening American from the right is what she's talking about in speech after speech. (My term, not hers.)

[HerbChestnut]

22. She's made some swipes against Bernie lately

But for the most part, you're right, she's okay with ignoring her primary competition. Unfortunately, that's not what some of her supporters on this board are doing.

[Hortensis]

25. Whatever. I personally think we should all be shuddering

and focused against what that black cloud represents. Everything else is frivolous in comparison.

[HerbChestnut]

26. I agree to a point.

But we shouldn't be so focused on only beating the Republicans that we lose sight of what's going on in-house. We should be fighting for the candidate we believe best represents us.

[Hortensis]

29. IMO the candidate who best represents us MUST be

the one who can beat, for instance, Ted Cruz. The most extreme and unstable candidate in an extreme field just got a big bump. Here's a Wash Post piece on the new momentum of someone we CANNOT allow to become president.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2015/11/24/ted-cruz-could-actually-be-the-republican-nominee-for-president/

[HerbChestnut]

38. I think we can kill two birds with one stone.

I have never seen Republicans be as universally ridiculed as we've seen them during this campaign cycle. Apparently, the RNC is floating Romney as the saving grace if they can't get their act together. It is my firm belief that any candidate the Democrats nominate will have an excellent chance of beating the Republican nominee in the general.

[Hortensis]

40. Hope so. Cruz is picking up the evangelicals Carson

is losing. Yesterday I heard that was 25% so far. Cruz may be "universally despised" by colleagues on both sides of the aisle, but he has raised almost as much money as Jeb Bush!

Religious right/GOP base vote + hundreds of millions in donations + brilliant intellect + good speaker = a real race.

I think Hillary should beat such a dangerous and flawed person, but if he becomes the GOP's nominee I'd breathe a lot easier if a little fairy told me The Anointed One would decompensate and be carried away in restraints before next November.

[JDPriestly]

55. The argument here is about who the candidate is that can bring voters to the polls and beat

a Republican in November 2016.

I think it is Bernie. He gets people to move, to get up and go to his rallies. People at his speeches are excited. Hey. Mention Bernie's name to a group of young people and just listen to the reaction.

Bernie is the candidate who can win in 2016. Hillary -- not so much.

[msrizzo]

60. Come on, that works both ways....

Bernie's not going around digging up every right wing meme going back to the 90s either, but that doesn't stop some of his supporters from doing it.

[JDPriestly]

51. Then why is she moving rightward so early?

Her tax talk?

Her war-mongering? Sure. We have to fight ISIS. But talking about w no-fly zone when the Russians are already in the fly zone????

If you are going to war, don't talk about your plans to early. What poor military strategy.

The list of Hillary's rightward moves is pretty long.

What does she have against single-payer?

Single-payer will overall cost less than what we have now and free investment money for areas in which we need it. We should try to have efficient, great healthcare for less money, not inefficient, sketchy healthcare for more money but also more profit for the already rich. That's Bernie's plan.

Her economic plan is growth. Sounds great, but if you have growth and the biggest portion of the benefit of the growth goes to the oligarchs, what good is that for the rest of us?

The problem now is disparity in wealth, spreading the economic gains from growth while continuing growth, not just growth in itself. Bernie wants to tax specific kinds of income so that the growth benefits everyone.

Hillary's proposals are just too little, too late.

No wonder the Hillary fans are on the negative. They have very little if anything to be positive about.

Feel the Bern!

[MADem]

54. It's only on DU that this is a 'thing.'

Of course, it's only on DU that people thought Kucinich had a shot.

[Hortensis]

92. :) I wasn't here for Kucinich, but, I can see it. Sure.

[Agschmid]

17. This...

So much this.

[freedom fighter jh]

44. *Some* of it's to be fought here.

Is it worthwhile to support Bernie and go out and fight for him when he seems unelectable and his agenda seems impossible? That's a question for DUers. So how real the "unelectable" and "impossible agenda" memes are is also a question for DUers.

Lots of debunking needs to be done outside of DU. As well as some right here.

[dogknob]

2. You forgot "Hope Bernie runs out of money and has to drop out before the convention." n/t

[MADem]

57. He won't run out of money--he's embraced the Super Pac concept.

He took that line out of his stump speech--now it's time for some of those rich guys who like Bernie to start paying his bills.

And his loyal donors will keep funding him for probably longer than they should.

They'll see the handwriting on the wall after Super Tuesday.

[sabrina 1]

4. All true. But the one thing they won't do is talk about issues. And the main they have failed to do

is to stop Bernie's momentum. He has gained enormously in the polls in the past month across all demographics.

So looks like the old negative politics just aren't working for them.

[Godhumor]

10. The thing with polls is it very easy to see if a claim about them is true

Let's take a look at RCP and see if your claim is correct.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/2016_democratic_presidential_nomination-3824.html

Now, I may be wrong, but the brown line that has gone from mid30s to 30 in the past few weeks seems to belong to Bernie. And the purple line that has remained consistently in the upper 50s appears to be Clinton.

But hey, trending down is the same as trending up, right?

[sabrina 1]

21. The other thing with polls is there are so many of them. Like this one eg, which shows

Hillary not just trending down but plummeting in just on month while Bernie's trend upwards is amazing:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/128078422

[Major Hogwash]

63. She also pooh-poohed the idea of attending a MoveOn.org debate.

She has totally miscalculated the social media affect . . once again.

[Historic NY]

27. +1

[UglyGreed]

5. Kick

& R

[WillyT]

6. HUGE K & R !!! - THANK YOU !!!

[LiberalArkie]

7. And the results are-----

On Tue Nov 24, 2015, 12:17 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Hillary Supporters' strategy becomes clear
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251845083

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Divisive over the top attack on all DU Hillary supporters claiming they all "always" "distort" and "turn anything related to Bernie into something negative." This OP is just one big callout of DUers and whining about getting "something derogatory" posted about Bernie on a GDP thread.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Nov 24, 2015, 12:23 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Dear Alerter, you are the exact person the poster is talking about.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: another day, another alert from "primaries"...
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The truth seems to hurt
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Not an anyone supporter right now, but do we really need this?
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No reason to hide this at all. It's right in keeping with the tone of GD

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[HerbChestnut]

9. Yep, saw it coming.

But what needs to be said needs to be said.

[LiberalArkie]

15. Yea, but we have a few more months for people to make fools of

themselves on both(all) sides. Hey it's politics, not like it's real life. As the great intellectual Mogo once said "We are just pawns in the great game of life".

[SoapBox]

34. OMG!

And there was a virtually identical OP by a Hiller, running Bernie down on all of the above points...no Alert on that post.

Just disgraceful.

[Plucketeer]

69. Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo..........

No one would be THAT thin-skinned - would they??? Reminds me of the alert I got the other day for suggesting Dame Hillary was a B***h thru my use of the GENDERLESS word "canine". I think my lucky stars I am not endowed with that degree of paranoia.

[LiberalArkie]

8. And the poster has not joined any of the sects here.

Not a follower of the fly, or the fly swatter, or the Bernie/Che, or Hillary or anything.

[FrostyAusty]

11. TBH here's the difference between supporters on DU

Whenever I see a PRO Hillary post on here it is only about her poll numbers or regurgitating a RW talking point.

However, there are often numerous Bernie posts that talk about his policies, proposals, and character.

My question is: Why the stark difference in posting behavior?

I think it's quite simple really, when you are forced to take a long hard look at each candidate it becomes clear who is the people's candidate is and who the corporate candidate is.

Feeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeel the Bern!!!

[upaloopa]

14. Because we don't need to make up shit

Madam President

[FrostyAusty]

16. Keep drinking the Clinton Kool-aid

You are playing make believe if you believe Hillary represents anything other than Corporate America and establishment.

[Scootaloo]

81. Except to call Sanders a rapist.

To call him a segregationist. To claim that he's protecting pedophiles. To claim that he's a republican with his head between women's legs. To accuse him of being a "disloyal jew.' To assert his only supporters are white supremacists. On, and on, and on.

[Vincardog]

19. ++ good

[senz]

41. True and well said.

Glad you're here, FrostyAusty.

[litlbilly]

52. Perfectly said. Excatly the way i would put it.

[upaloopa]

12. Strategy? We don't need no stinking strategy

Strategy for what? We are winning. Hillary will be President.

[HerbChestnut]

13. See point #3

[sabrina 1]

23. So you think your candidate is inevitable then? Well great keep on thinking that way

Meantime I believe that anyone asking voters for this job needs to explain why they should get it.

And maybe NO STRATEGY isn't working so well as voters begin to pay more attention. See here eg:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/128078422

[retrowire]

31. mmm yes sweet complacency

you just stay comfy and reliant on her, we'll keep volunteering and donating for Bernie.

[JimDandy]

39. Bernie supporters are counting on that for the win.

[bravenak]

32. .

[Laser102]

33. Confidence of winners. No need to go negative when your candidate is on her way to the White House.

[global1]

18. When They Say Bernie Won't Be Able To Get Anything Passed In Congress....

How in the hell do they think that Hillary will ever get anything passed in Congress. Hillary's treatment by Congress - if we don't have a 'political revolution' that Bernie is calling for - will even be more negative and grid locking than President Obama's.

Without talking candidates - I ask people that I know are Hillary supporters - if they would like to break up the banks? if they would like to send their kids to college for free? if they would like to not have to worry about being bankrupted by an illness? if they would like our infrastructure to be repaired? if they would like to wean ourselves away from fossil fuels? if they would like to stop giving tax breaks to corporations that are sending our jobs overseas? if they would like to have a living minimum wage of $15.00 per hour? if they would like to have equal pay for women workers? if they would like to bring back manufacturing jobs to the U.S.? if they would like to eliminate loopholes that let corporations pay no U.S. federal income tax?

Almost to the person - they are for all these things. I get them saying 'yes'.

Then I talk political revolution - the need to put the right people in Congress that will push for these. The need for the People to take back the House and Senate and demand these things from Congress.

That's when I start talking up Bernie and the need for a groundswell of support for a person that tells it like it is and does have a plan.

When one takes some of Bernie's points separately - it is easy for them to take shots at them. But when one looks at Bernie's points in totality - that are intertwining - one can see how they can be achieved.

Put people to work on infrastructure and give them jobs and a decent income - where they feel secure again - they start spending money. Money spent to buy things puts other people to work and gets the economy churning again. People buy things and pay sales tax. More things bought - the more sales tax generated - all of a sudden there's money available to get things accomplished. People will feel comfortable that they can afford a house - -property taxes kick in. Have a tax on speculative stock purchasing - lots of money becomes available for things like free college. Eliminate loopholes so corporations that pay no tax - begin to pay their fair share - more money available.

You see where I'm going on this. If Bernie's points are put into effect - we really move to a recovery and we re-establish a strong middle class that supports the economy.

I've always wondered what the corporations are thinking by dumping on the middle class. At some point there will be a breaking point where people won't be able to buy the very things that the corporations are selling. And we spiral down even further.

I see that Bernie has a plan. A well put together plan to break this spiral and he provides us the best chance at doing this.

I know a lot of Hillary supporters and the bulk of their support come in the form of two major things: 1. they want to have a woman president and 2. they believe that it is her time - that she is next in line for the job - because she was passed by Obama the last time. They feel she is owed the presidency.

I really don't see Hillary supporters talking the issues like the Bernie supporters do. To me that is just asking for more of the same from Congress and keeping the status quo. Is it any wonder why Wall St., the banksters, the corporations, the MSM is pushing for Hillary. They all like the status quo. Is it any wonder why all those same groups blackout or talk negatively about Bernie. They are terribly afraid of what he would do to their warm, cozy, comfortable world.

Sorry for the rant - but that's how I'm feeling this a.m.

[Scuba]

24. /\_/\_This right here_/\_/\

[think]

30. Great post. Thank you /nt

[bvar22]

47. Summed it up well.

Thoughtful, logical, pragmatic, and well presented.
Thank You!

DURec for your post.

[tularetom]

62. I disagree - Hillary would be able to get things passed in Congress

* The Syria War Resolution

* The Iran War Resolution

* The Permanent and Irrevocable Support for Israel Act

* The Retroactive and Future Immunity from Prosecution for Investment Bankers Act

* Blanket Exemption from Environmental Regulations for Fracking, Coal Mining and Offshore Drilling

* The TPP (Unless Obama takes her off the hook by approving it first)

* A ton of other trade agreements aimed ultimately at disenfranchisement of the American voter

[jeff47]

67. Ya know, I think if Clinton proposed those, the Republicans would still have to oppose them

just to placate their base. Yes...their base is that fucking crazy.

[Major Hogwash]

64. Great post!

You should be on fire this afternoon if you're that hot about politics so early in the morning!

Glad you're on our side!

[jeff47]

66. If a Republican votes for any Clinton-backed bill, they will lose their next primary.

And barring a miracle, the Republicans will control the House until at least 2022.

So if Clinton wins, we're in for years of government shutdown and debt limit battles that can only be "won" by fucking over Democrats.

The problem isn't Republican politicians - there are plenty who would negotiate in good faith. The problem is Republicans and Fox have been telling the Republican base that Clinton is Satan incarnate for the last 20 years, and the base believes them. Thus anything Clinton supports would instantly be loathed by the base as if it was proposed by Satan. Even the "Puppies and Kittens Are Cute Act of 2017".

Meanwhile, O'Malley and Sanders would "only" be despised at "generic Democrat" levels. They'd be evil socialists just like every other Democrat since there is not 20 years of utter hatred built in the base for them. They will still face opposition from the party that doesn't actually want to govern, but it will not be to the degree faced by Clinton.

After all, the Benghazi committee's still running. And the base loves it. Even after Clinton's testimony.

[dpatbrown]

28. Right out of Karl Rove's playbook.

They are now employing one of Rove's most obnoxious tacit, go after his strength

[cantbeserious]

80. Makes One Wonder If Rove Is On Retainer

eom

[stupidicus]

35. this is a natural result of the rightwing stench she has always had

it's easier to paint the opposition as the stinky one than to try to cover up her stench

that thay've chosen offensive offense as their primary defense is really a measure of their awareness that sticking to past and present records isn't a winner in terms of New Deal dem goals

they're merely identifying themselves as 3rdway/new dem types, and that's about it.

good post

[ejbr]

36. Not sure if someone addressed this

But another smoke screen that irks me is that "Bernie has been trying to get this done for 30 years with no results" As if this is necessarily a reflection of Bernie and his leadership. I imagine there may have been a congressman in the 1820s who tried to end slavery. Because he didn't accomplish that or couldn't lead others to the same conclusion means he was wrong on substance or someone to be ridiculed? Maybe it is not Bernie and his ideas that are the problem...just sayin'/food for thought. Maybe this society is the one who is naive if the status quo is acceptable to it.

Is he perfect? No. He already admitted this at Liberty U., but we should strive for higher ideals nevertheless.

[jeff47]

68. FDR, Truman and LBJ all fought for single-payer.

I really want a Clinton supporter to tell me they were "not effective".

[ejbr]

70. +1 n/t

[Fairgo]

37. It has been trending Reagan

I am still reeling from the supply side schooling I got from an HRC supplicant. Did you know that the 99% are in a symbiotic relationship with the 1%? Yes, they create the jobs, we create the means by which they create they jobs. Labour and our ownership of same did not register in this vine ripened piece of monkey fruit.

[bvar22]

48. LOL

" Labour and our ownership of same did not register in this vine ripened piece of monkey fruit."

I mean REALLY laughing Out Loud.

[BootinUp]

42. My reaction

When a large group of the DU community starts crying like babies about tactics by a small group.

[JaneyVee]

43. LOL. Everyone knows about 'Bernie supporters'.

[McCamy Taylor]

45. Who needs strategy when you are winning?

[guillaumeb]

61. Winning without a clear idea of what one hopes to accomplish

serves nothing. The strategy is obviously to overwhelm with money and hope that the "inevitability" of the candidacy is enough to compensate for a neo-liberal, third way, soft center right politics.

[Major Hogwash]

65. How is she winning?

Not one single vote has been cast yet!!!

[cui bono]

78. Like this?

[smiley]

53. Uugh

I really wished I hadn't followed that link. That is definitely not a reality based thread.
😊

[ConservativeDemocrat]

76. It's clearly reality based when talking about the DU

I always distinguish between the Bernie supporters in real life and the ones you find here. Among other things, 85% of Bernie supporters like Hillary too, and over 90% of them say they will vote for Hillary in the general election if their she wins the Democratic nomination.

This outright hatred of mainstream Democrats that you see among the writers here isn't common.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[in_cog_ni_to]

83. Aaaawe...Thatcher's getting under their skin. Truth hurts.

The comparison is spot on. Anyone can read about Thatcherism on Thatcher's Wiki page.
Thatcher = Clinton If they didn't like Thatcher, they should be voting for O'Malley or Sanders. It's that simple.

PEACE
LOVE
BERNIE

[JoePhilly]

49. The guy talking about "cognitive dissonance" is calling others "condescending".

Rather funny.

[marym625]

50. K&R!

Well written, clear, concise and accurate. "..and boy is it ripe here."

I would add the current, consistent, meme "he's never accomplished anything" as a ridiculous, outright lie. Again, so easy to fact check. And when you do, you discover he's one of the most effective and liberal legislator around.

Bravo! Or Brava! Whichever the case may be

[merrily]

56. In all fairness,

how dare Sanders eat lunch?

[Trajan]

58. There are Hillary supporters on this forum?

I didn't notice ....

[Betty Karlson]

59. Thanks for the explanation.

You see things much clearer than I do.

[noiretextatique]

71. clearly there is a huge rift within the party: time to stop pretending

and that's the bottom line. i am tired of voting for centrists who differ little from republicons on economic issues. that's one of the really blatantly dishonest memes the clinton camp has been pushing by attacking sanders on social issues. it is laughably dishonest because they came to power by being republicon lite on economic AND social issues.

[George II]

72. I wonder why I never heard of this "strategy".

[beam me up scottie]

74. Really, George? Because you use #s 1, 4 and 5 frequently.

You posted a bankster Bernie meme which was factually incorrect:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251640125


And then there was this gem - asking what took Bernie "so long" to propose an equal rights amendment when he actually proposed it back in 2001, you then moved the goal posts because everything Bernie does is NOT GOOD ENUFF and more hilarity ensued:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=766764

[Paka]

73. Good Vent

It gets really tiresome. So often, certain ones just come in to say something snarky no matter what the discussion is about.

[Samantha]

75. Thank you for taking the time and having the patience to write this thread

I followed Senator Sanders for some time before he announced he was running. I always admired him as someone who is very intelligent, very honest, and right on point on a myriad of issues. I thought it would really be great if he one day ran for President, but I thought he would not take it on because of his age and the stress of running. So when he did announce, I was overjoyed.

I totally understand everyone does not agree on the issues, but I do not understand why people stoop to make sleazy allegations against Bernie Sanders when they could instead just argue against his positions on issues. Making stuff up is not a substitute for a civilized political discussion, and in that regard your thread goes a long way to rebut a lot of incorrect information.

Thanks again, recommended

Sam

[Cary]

77. Must we have an us versus them between ourselves?

Are not "conservatives" odious and pernicious enough? With Trump decreeing that people deserve to get roughed up and all of the overt bigotry and racism and xenophobia are they not lurching to the right?

They are a dangerous ideology. Can't we fight them instead of ourselves?

[Thespian2]

79. Huge K & R !!!

[AtomicKitten]

82. After the kamikaze campaign Clinton ran in 2007/08, pay her fans no never mind.

[Enthusiast]

84. Kicked and recommended a whole bunch!

[billhicks76]

85. They Lie And Even Worse Censor

Their feelings are more important than anyone else's. They censor anything their brains can't handle. I truly hate many of them here. And that's the weirdest thing to say because I love most and live by love more than anything else. They must really suck.

[DanTex]

86. Try to get your facts straight.

For example, Bernie's senate single payer bill (he hasn't given any specifics in his campaign, so that's all we have to work with) includes both a 2.2% income tax increase and a 6.7% payroll tax, for a total increase of 8.7%. Also, that bill used a financial transaction tax to pay for part of the program, but in his campaign, he is already using that to fund free college, so he has to find more taxes somewhere.

"Ignore facts at the convenience of their own beliefs." Might want to look in the mirror.

[Tarc]

87. Yes, the strategy is very clear

1) Talk to the voters
2) Convince them that you are the best person for the job
3) If more of them say they prefer your vision over the other candidate's, you win.

My gosh, how diabolical.

[treestar]

88. So? Are they supposed to roll over?

They are trying to win. Bernie needs a better strategy, then. Complaining about HRC trying to win is silly. He has to do something to beat her himself, not complain about how she is winning.

[blackspade]

89. But ponies and unicorns! Or something....

[RBInMaine]

90. Nonsense. And the attacks on Hillary from the Bernie side are CONSTANT and MUCH MORE. Enough.