Dr. King and the White Progressive

[bravenak]

In response, King penned his famous “Letter from a Birmingham Jail,” in which he noted that freedom must be demanded by the oppressed and that there’s no such thing as a “well-timed” direction action in the eyes of the oppressed:

We know through painful experience that freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed. Frankly, I have yet to engage in a direct action campaign that was “well timed” in the view of those who have not suffered unduly from the disease of segregation. For years now I have heard the word “Wait!” It rings in the ear of every Negro with piercing familiarity. This “Wait” has almost always meant “Never.” We must come to see, with one of our distinguished jurists, that “justice too long delayed is justice denied.”

King also criticized the white moderate, noting that they seemed more devoted to order than to justice:

I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.” Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

King also pointed out that it was not the protesters engaged in nonviolent direct action who were the cause of racial tension, but rather that the protesters were merely bringing that tension to light:

http://rhrealitycheck.org/ablc/2015/08/13/dr-king-white-progressive/

[JonLeibowitz]

1. Did you or author misspell moderate as progressive? MLK didn't mention progressives in your excerpt

[bravenak]

2. Nope!!

[Scootaloo]

177. Are you sure?

King's words:

I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice

Your title:

Dr. King and the White Progressive

"Progressive" and "moderate" were not synonyms then, nor are they synonyms now. Now either you mixed up somewhere, or you're being intentionally dishonest.

[AtomicKitten]

191. Yah, I'm going with the latter.

[Truprogressive85]

46. He talked about white moderate

aka establishment that wanted to keep the status quo

[jkbRN]

99. clearly the OP did do that

"Nope" isn't a sufficient answer when there were 2 questions posed to you.

[Bonobo]

158. Well done. You should elaborate.

It seems clear to me that MLK was talking about the establishment, status quo Whites who are not willing to actually go the extra step for social and economic justice.

There is one candidate who embodies that and it is not Sanders. It is Clinton.

[NCTraveler]

3. Excellent read. I would like to say something about the general points made in the article.

Yourself, 1strong, liberalstal, and many others have made these exact points here over and over again since the beginning of the primaries. Seems it isn't being discussed as often anymore as many of your were dismissed or ridiculed by over half of the regular posting members of this board. Some of us were reading instead of trying to shoot you down by any rhetoric necessary. There are true intellectuals on this board who have taken the time to educate us.

[bravenak]

4. Thank you. I really mean that.

[MaggieD]

8. +1

Bravenak is an example of what still makes DU an interesting place to visit.

[BlueCaliDem]

67. + 1000. Truth, MaggieD.

I wholeheartedly concur. Bravenak keeps it real when things appear to go off the deep end around here.

[randys1]

86. Indeed, and how about that Martin guy...

I mean holy hell, an intellectual and a passionate lover of the human race, filled with grace and charisma unlike any other.

Wish I coulda met him, like I did Maya Angelou (as a kid)

[kath]

124. "Keeps it real"? she is not who she pretends to be.

see this PM (un-hide post #5) where she admits she is only pretending to like Hillary:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/128075924#post5

I have seen another PM/DU mail where she said "I still hate Hillary" (in addition to saying "fuck" or "fucking" at least 10 times - she sends lost of really nasty, abusive, harassing PMs -which used to be a bannable offense around here.)

[BlueCaliDem]

130. Very unfortunate PM, but it doesn't negate the fact that bravenak is keeping it real

when it comes to the #BlackLivesMatter movement and the continued struggle for equal rights for African Americans - in addition to Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s position who, in his day, viewed neither the Republican nor Democratic Party favorably. What I read in that unfortunate PM was pain - pain born out of anger and disillusion. I understand why. She so wanted to support Bernie Sanders, but his supporters have turned her off on him.

But through it all, she strives to keep the record straight before its spun into a 180 case of revisionism to be used by either Party, or any presidential candidate, for political expediency.

IMO, whether or not she really is a Hillary Clinton supporter is immaterial to the fact that she's passionate about equal rights for all. That's what I mean by keeping it real.

[bravenak]

137. I blindly trusted in Bernie.

[BlueCaliDem]

174. Well, I blindly trusted John Edwards in 2007.

Nobody's perfect.

I guess we can say that we're all allowed to make errors...as long as we rectify them when it counts.

[MaggieD]

134. Doesn't matter to me who she supports

She is smart, intellectual, gets her point across with as few words as I have ever seen (I find that amazing about her). I am a fan regardless of who she supports.

[bravenak]

139. I swear I need to photograph my ballot just to calm people upset nerves.

I do not have to love a candidate. My vote counts the same as theirs. That is why it pisses some off. My vote would have meant more to Bernie. Now, it goes to the default candidate. The winner. Hillary. They also know that I would not have been as vigorous had not this summer happened. Therefore the scare quotes are upsetting. 'Support' oooooh, scary!

[MaggieD]

143. Anyone who "loves" or idolizes a politican....

.... is politically naïve in my book. Politicians have to do what they have to do to advance the agenda of their party as best as possible. And sometimes it is not pretty.

There is nothing to "love" about politicians, IMO. We need 'em, but it's foolish to "love" them. Every single one of them will disappoint you at some point. It's the nature of politics.

[bravenak]

144. Seriously.

All that matters is if they are on the same side I am on and keeping the supreme court neutral, or actually, getting it neutral. No legislation will pass this congress. I do not want to be fooled. I do not like promises. Steady progress and an ability to stay up with the times. Willingness to evolve. This loving politicians and pretending they have no flaws thing bothers me.

[mcar]

83. True!

[MeNMyVolt]

9. Agree 100% n/t

[MineralMan]

5. Standing near the back of the crowd

in Montgomery, listening to Dr. King give his "How Long?" speech, I was awed by his words but, as a 19 year old white kid who had driven there from California, I had no idea what I could do to help. I asked a man standing near me what I could do. He simply said, "Listen closely."

Best answer ever. That's what I did, from then on. I acted on what I heard by trying to pass what I heard along to other white people like myself.

[bravenak]

6. Thank you MM, you are awesomesauce!

[leftofcool]

35. +1

[LiberalArkie]

106. I was generally in the back also. It was the blacks protest. Us white people were

there to support them and add to the numbers. If I remember correctly, it has been a long time, but I think the police used to start grabbing people from the back and slapping them around with the batons and work their way forward. At least that is where I got knocked in the noggin. I think once they got some of the back down then the firetrucks were called in to hose down the front. That way no violence by the police was filmed, just the part of "the police just peacefully dispersing the crowd" while hoping that the blacks would turn violent so they would have an excuse to shoot.

[MineralMan]

107. It's too bad all of that was before cell phones and a camera in

every hand. I saw a few people with 8mm movie cameras, but not many. All of those were pointed at Dr. King in Montgomery, though.

There were other white people at that speech. Most, like me, were at the rear of the crowd. That was instinctive. It wasn't our day that day. The day belonged to others, no question.

[LiberalArkie]

121. I think that if it wasn't for lot of the brave white preachers and college kids that

Mississippi and Alabama police would have had no problem killing all the protesters present. A lot did die, but not in front of the public.

But I still hold that peaceful protests always wins.

People have posted "what's with all this talk of dead leaders" or something to that affect. Well the dead heroes are where I learned the proper way to do things. The dead leaders learned it from the Bible where Jesus said “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.

[MineralMan]

122. Yes.

[randys1]

116. An honor to know you...You are displaying the brilliance and decency I know all of us white

folks are capable of being when presented with this issue, right on as I used to say

[gwheezie]

7. My 1st thought of netroots was

Back in the day, where would the civil rights movement have been standing at that event?
Also, knowing Bernie had been marching and protesting back in the day, where would the young Bernie been standing at that event?

[bravenak]

10. He would be in the back, as usual.

We would be up front, supporting. Protesting. Being loud. As usual.

[JonLeibowitz]

11. You don't seem to respect very much the young activists at UChicago who fought for civil rights

[bravenak]

15. I respect the black folks who were the civil rights movement.

The other I thank for supporting us but they are not black civil rights icons. We decide who to honor.

[JonLeibowitz]

22. Well if you don't show the allies any respect i don't know what to say. Sad.

[bravenak]

24. Thanking them is respecting them. No pedastals.

[JonLeibowitz]

31. Your statement in post 15 stands in stark contrast.

[bravenak]

34. Whatever. Maybe you take things out of context?

[JonLeibowitz]

42. I didn't. Just calling out inconsistencies as i see them.

[bravenak]

43. .

[wildeyed]

77. Part of being an ally is understanding that it is not about you.

It's about a commitment to justice and action. If you show up consistently and do the right thing, there might be trust and friendship, but no one owes you respect or recognition.

[JonLeibowitz]

84. Perhaps, but it is still telling that bravenak is openly disrespectful.

[randys1]

88. Where did she show disrespect? Be specific please

[JonLeibowitz]

101. See post 10

[randys1]

102. So Bernie deserves parity with

the people who are actually being shot when the shit goes down?

No white person then or now, regardless of the fact that white supporters have been shot during this or back then, deserves or WANTS parity in this.

Stop speaking for Bernie...

[JonLeibowitz]

108. Did i say anything about parity?

Don't put words in my mouth.

Saying someone would be in the back, i.e. not a fullthroated supporter, who led civil rights demonstrations back in the day is a pretty wildly inaccurate and disrespectful statement. Disrespectful to both Bernie and any fair account of history.

[randys1]

114. You and others who insist on speaking for Bernie and taking offense anytime

a POC says something you dont like, is making things worse for Bernie and his campaign.

As a Bernie supporter, I wish I knew how to stop it.

But in the case of white folks who do this, it cant be stopped. Us white folk think we know what is best most of the time and it is hard telling us we dont.

[wildeyed]

109. That is not disrespect that is true.

Allies are SUPPOSED to be in the back. They are helpers, not the main event.

Going to a few speeches and demonstrations is great, but that does not make you a martyr or a superstar. My mom and dad did all that stuff too. They are good liberals and raised us kids to be anti-racism, but I never heard them make a big deal about that stuff. It was just the right thing to do.

[JonLeibowitz]

113. What about leading and organizing demonstrations?

[wildeyed]

115. What about it?

Are you referring to something specific?

[JonLeibowitz]

118. You don't lead a demonstration from the back of the room

[wildeyed]

146. OK. Are you referring to something specific?

I am not up on all the flame wars and in fighting here right now so you are going to have to actually type what you mean for me to understand. It seems like you are a white person accusing a black person of being uppity for not showing proper respect to a white daddy figure. If this is true, then it is really problematic on many, many levels and emblematic of why people distrust your candidate.

[JonLeibowitz]

150. Okay, let me try to be a little clearer, which I perhaps wasn't

I am talking only of Post #10, by bravenak (who incidentally is not actually a Clinton supporter and is only posing as one to denigrate Bernie). Also note that my screen name has nothing to do with my ethnicity (which is nobody's business, I prefer to have my posts evaluated on what I say not who I am), it is simply an homage to Jon Stewart.

bravenak said:

He would be in the back, as usual.

We would be up front, supporting. Protesting. Being loud. As usual.

This is bothersome, because it is misrepresenting history: it implies that Bernie was not a leader in organizing civil rights demonstrations and instead "supported from behind". This is simply untrue. It isn't a matter of black vs. white "respecting" Bernie, it is a matter of respecting the actual historical record of who civil rights activists were. He actually was up front supporting and protesting and being loud. bravenak is just ignoring the historical record to spin a false narrative of how Bernie would act if he were a young college student today. That is what I mean by the disrespect for Bernie and the historical record.

Pictures of Bernie protesting and supporting from the front:



?quality=75&strip=color&w=1100

[bravenak]

157. At that event (Netroots)that was referenced by the poster I replied to.....

All of the protesters were BLACK!!!!! Those that joined them, fell in behind. Like I said, I would have been up FRONT protesting LOUDLY. As I did support them LOUDLY right here. Did he join in with their protest and I missed it?

[Empowerer]

163. I see 3 black people in the top photo and none in the bottom

This may have been the front of something and, whatever it was, it was surely something good and laudable. But it certainly can't be argued that anyone in either of these photos was protesting or supporting "from the front."

[JonLeibowitz]

168. They were protesting segregation of Blacks at Uchicago. He LED the efforts.

[wildeyed]

183. Actually, bravenak is really a Clinton supporter who only PRETENDED to like Sanders

and then flipped back to Clinton to throw everyone off the scent. It is part of a complicated plot. The Bernie Bug is also in on the plot! Who knew!?!? Somebody on an anonymous internet board said it, so I know it is true....

But anyway, racial equality is a footnote in Bernie Sander's history. He went to March on Washington. He got arrest once protesting for civil rights in Chicago. Good on him. Really. But he is not an icon or a martyr. Trying to represent him as such just looks weak. Honestly, you would do better to say, yeah, I see you point bravenak, civil rights movement is really more about black people than about my white candidate. But he was a supporter then and he is good on death penalty, war on drugs, etc, all programs that disproportionately effect black citizens. I hope you will consider voting for him based on the strength of his record on those issues and his willingness to listen to BLM activists now. And then stop talking.

[JonLeibowitz]

184. I did see the PM. There is no conspiracy but hers.

I'll think about the rest of your post more on this SFO-BOS flight and get back to you

[randys1]

120. I felt out of place in Seattle surrounded by African AMericans and other minorities

as what I was joining in with them to say actually had nothing to do with me.

Cops simply dont instantly gun down white guys when suspected of jaywalking or playing with a toy or being high on ecstasy

It was more that I felt presumptuous, what right did I have to be with them


According to some here I not only have that right but I am supposed to be at the front getting all the attention


NOT

jesus what bullshit

[MineralMan]

103. Actually, no she isn't.

You just don't like what she said. There is a difference.

[wildeyed]

105. Am I missing something? This must be spillover from another thread.

How is bravenak disrespectful? Demanding respect for allies makes you a bad ally. Because as an ally, it is not about you. It is also not about your candidate unless he is John Lewis. It is about justice. There is fulfillment from being part of a team that you feel is doing meaningful work and the intellectual challenge of trying to see the world from a different point of view. But, alas, no gold stars unless you made the list of Civil Rights Martyrs.

https://www.splcenter.org/what-we-do/civil-rights-memorial/civil-rights-martyrs

[JonLeibowitz]

110. I was referring to post 10

[JTFrog]

117. Oh, for fuck's sake.

This is some surreal shit at DU these days.

[randys1]

123. And yet the poster reflects the attitudes of MILLIONS of white americans, many of them

so called liberals or progressives.

It reminds me of the people who say they are fine with Gay folks as long as they dont flaunt it in public.

In other words we will at best tolerate you and only under our conditions.

We can educate them?

I cant, I dont know shit about this other than what I can learn, but people with first hand experience can.

[JonLeibowitz]

132. Did i say anything of the kind? No.

[libdem4life]

16. How prescient.

[bravenak]

23. I always am

[forsaken mortal]

12. That constant appeal to order is something I've noticed among a lot of whites

They seem to have no concept that the oppressed aren't going to find justice by respecting order. No one will listen to their concerns, or be motivated into action against deeply entrenched societal mores, unless upheaval happens. I think this constant appeal to "order" is just another way of trying to keep the oppressed in their place.

[bravenak]

19. It gets disheartening for sure.

[randys1]

93. Reminds me of yesterday, Rahm instantly coming out and saying "gotta be peaceful"

Day after day after day Black people being shot or beaten, others too, not just Black folks, but they are told that they must never respond with anything other than sugar and spice


This country is so lucky the African American community are so reasonable, peaceful, and so on...

Imagine a certain other group putting up with this shit for this long?

Yeah RIGHT

[Skidmore]

13. Bravenak, thank you for sharing that most excellent essay.

This author dealt thoroughly with all of the nuances of the blind spot of the white progressive. The AA community has waited for a "more convenient season" for too long.

[bravenak]

20. Thank you so much.

She is the smartest lady on the internet.

[hootinholler]

14. !

He also praised those white allies—”few in quantity,” but “big in quality”—who were in the trenches with him and committed to social revolution:

I am thankful, however, that some of our white brothers in the South have grasped the meaning of this social revolution and committed themselves to it. They are still all too few in quantity, but they are big in quality. Some—such as Ralph McGill, Lillian Smith, Harry Golden, James McBride Dabbs, Ann Braden and Sarah Patton Boyle—have written about our struggle in eloquent and prophetic terms. Others have marched with us down nameless streets of the South. They have languished in filthy, roach infested jails, suffering the abuse and brutality of policemen who view them as “dirty nigger-lovers.” Unlike so many of their moderate brothers and sisters, they have recognized the urgency of the moment and sensed the need for powerful “action” antidotes to combat the disease of segregation.

Bernie's entire life has revolved around action.

[bravenak]

18. And I thank them too..

But they are NOT BLACK CIVIL RIGHTS ICONS, not the LEADERS, not the MOVEMENT. They helped. It was our movement and always will be. Appropriation is not appreciated.

[hootinholler]

32. Do I have this right?

Is your point that Bernie has somehow appropriated MLK's legacy?

[bravenak]

45. Did I ever use his name one time in my op? No. I did not.

[hootinholler]

50. So this isn't about Bernie then?

Why did you post in GD: P?

[bravenak]

52. It is about black voting rights, civil rights and the history of blacks in politics.

Since blm is In the news this primary season in a political way, and as they are the succesor to MLK and the legacy of the civil rights movement, I though people might like a history lesson on black leaders such as mlk and what he though of the political processes and the elected leaders. Oeople need to know this stuff to choose the right candidate this primary season. One who will uphold the legacy of MLK, rather than appropriate his legacy to win.

[hootinholler]

54. Cool!

So which candidate is appropriating MLK's legacy to win?

I would hate to be on the wrong side of this issue.

[bravenak]

56. The candidates want the SUPPORT of BLM.

Others do the appropriating.

[hootinholler]

60. So you mis-spoke?

When you said:

Oeople(sic) need to know this stuff to choose the right candidate this primary season. One who will uphold the legacy of MLK, rather than appropriate his legacy to win.

You weren't really trying to talk about any candidates? What were you trying to say?

Who are the others doing this?

[bravenak]

66. Oooh!! Look at that!! I always spell words incorrectly!

[hootinholler]

79. .

[bravenak]

80. Awww!

[Vattel]

160. Nice persistence. You have more patience than I do.

[bravenak]

162. .

[Vattel]

159. They were a part of the movement and deserve as much respect as others who

made similar contributions. Their skin color is irrelevant to their level of sacrifice and contribution and to the honor and respect that they deserve.

[bravenak]

161. They were not the reason for the movement. It was not their movement. They did not start it.

I thank them. I HONOR the oppressed.

[lovemydog]

17. He criticized white moderates,

liberals, self-described progressives (thought that term wasn't used much back then), conservatives, and anyone else who stood in the way of racial progress.

Love doesn't identify with labels or get overly defensive about looking in our hearts.

Cheers for bringing this stuff forward bravenak.

[bravenak]

21. Yep!

[AgingAmerican]

25. King was a professed Democratic Socialist

Would he prefer a Democratic Socialist over a 'moderate', whatever that is...??? Would he reject Sanders because of his ethnicity and skin color? No, he would embrace him and all of his closely held beliefs.

[bravenak]

28. He would decide for HIMSELF.

[Sheepshank]

138. Democrates don't always vote for Democrats...

...Republicans don't always vote for Republicans. Why should any one assume that a posthumously applied with fairy dust, political designation, would guarantee that MLK would vote for Bernie?

I posted this form an link provided by Maggie D "King was not a partisan and never endorsed any political candidate". If you can find me a link that [rovide MLK's political affiliation and endorsements, that may change my mind for 50 years ago...not for 2015-16

THis has got to be the most inane argument going around Du today.

[AgingAmerican]

189. What is the ideology of 'Moderates'?

?? You must know because you put out a lot of effort defending one. List the basic ideology of 'moderate' if one exists.

[Sheepshank]

200. Just for the record...is Moderate a bad thing?

Are only purists, far lefties of any political value in this world? Based on the comments, and pressures to act and believe only in far Left socialist policies, I don't think I fit and know I dont agree with the totality of the Bernie supporter ideologies and tactics. Is everyone else wrong because YOU attempt to apply what you are trying to create as an insulting label that applies to those that are not Bernie supporters?

[AgingAmerican]

205. So you don't know either

nt

[Sheepshank]

207. Only you here attempt to label and attempt to state anything other than purity

is of no value.

Reminds me of the RW attempt to paint "liberal" as a dirty word. This is exactly what you are doing...exactly.

Have fun with the 25% far lefties you attempt to glorify

[TheProgressive]

26. Isn't this a form of race baiting?

I would think that this thread would have been alerted...

[bravenak]

27. How so? They are the WORDS OF MLK!

[TheProgressive]

36. Your post, not MLK

race baiting: the unfair use of statements about race to try to influence the actions or attitudes of a particular group of people

[bravenak]

37. This post is a HISTORY LESSON!

[randys1]

111. A Black liberal being accused of race baiting on an allegedly liberal board

getting sick of this shit, i bet you are as well

[bravenak]

112. Used to it

[TheProgressive]

156. Please see my post #155

[freshwest]

55. Going back in time from Obama to MLK...

Those who use that term don't realize the finger they are pointing at you points at themselves simultaneously.



So who's baiting who in that pic?

[JonLeibowitz]

38. If nothing else this post deserves a resurrection

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251776157

[randys1]

126. You seem angry that you are not getting enough appreciation from Black people, why is that?

You link to a thread where white progressive males are complaining, or as my mother would have said, whining

[JonLeibowitz]

131. That is not my complaint at all.

[leftofcool]

44. The words of MLK constitute race baiting?

Are you serious??????????????

[wildeyed]

147. Go home, you're drunk.

I hope. At least that would be an excuse.

[TheProgressive]

149. Thanks very much for your personal attack...

Luckily I view such attacks as your problem....

[wildeyed]

152. It is a problem when discussing MLK and his legacy is seen as race baiting. n/t

[TheProgressive]

155. "Dr. King and the White Progressive™"

This is the title of the article this thread links to. Here is the first paragraph:

"In the wake of the white progressive think pieces decrying the Black Lives Matter activists as rude, stupid, immature, idiots, bullies, participating in a circular firing squad, or alienating allies—as well as similar sentiments expressed on Facebook, Twitter, and in the comments of my previous articles (here and here)—the parallels between the white moderates whom Dr. Martin Luther King criticized in 1963 and certain white progressives whom many Black activists are criticizing in 2015 are clear."

How does the author know that they are 'white' and that they are 'progressive'.

Definition of race baiting: the unfair use of statements about race to try to influence the actions or attitudes of a particular group of people"

Anybody, of any race, can race bait...

My post is extremely accurate in my opinion...

[wildeyed]

176. She expressed an opinion that you don't like.

Not the same as race baiting. Grow some skin, it's not always about you.

[villager]

29. So to be clear... Hillary, then, is *not* a "white moderate?"

[bravenak]

39. Dunno

[villager]

41. Oh, I think you do. nt

[bravenak]

47. Hmmm

[Truprogressive85]

51. oh yes she is

HRC is white moderate

[Broward]

53. Worse, she's a conservative.

[leftofcool]

48. Of course. Much easier to ignore, eh?

[Bread and Circus]

57. Ignore the fact that white moderates compromise Clinton's base?

[sufrommich]

65. Do you have two accounts here?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=481104

[bravenak]

75. Nice find

[George II]

94. Try three - vincenz, bigvincenz, and Big Vincenz!

[Bobbie Jo]

100. Oh dear.

[zappaman]

95. Hello MIRT?

Whoopsie!

[George II]

104. Sorry, I was incorrect, just bigvincenz and Big Vincenz.

[Romulox]

33. "King also criticized the white moderate..." Not "progressive"... MODERATE.

[bravenak]

40. He criticised all political persuasions. Go look at his history.

[Romulox]

62. The passage you quoted criticizes the WHITE MODERATE...you're misrepresenting it. nt

[bravenak]

69. That's nice. I copied the title verbatim.

[Romulox]

85. The title given by some Blogger. Not MLK's words. nt

[bravenak]

87. So

[Romulox]

90. So *YOU* are the one supporting the White Moderate. Irony alert! nt

[bravenak]

92. They are ALL MODERATES.

He was talking moderate on race issues. All of them.

[Romulox]

96. Nope. One is a SOSHIALIST, the other is a Big Money Wall Street "Moderate".

[bravenak]

97. Wrong

I'm to the left of ONE HUNDRED PERCENT OF THE CANDIDATES..
They look the same from way the hell over here. Depth perception or whatever; perspective...

[Romulox]

98. Nope. You can't be "to the left" and support the Rightwing candidate. Don't work. nt

[randys1]

127. Would you like to do a "left" contest with me? You see I support Bernie but if he isnt the

nominee I will do everything in my power to get Hillary elected.

So I am not left according to you.

Do you want to compare with me and ask the crowd here who is more left?

I will start

1. no human being should be allowed, ever, to own land...(including myself, of course)


your turn

[JonLeibowitz]

133. The point is it is premature to support the candidate on the right since we don't yet have a nominee

[bravenak]

142. Most land should be returned to tribes to manage, section by section and a portion given to the

Descendants Of slaves.
If they want to contest, we will win all day. The tribes can decide if they want certain folks in their sector. A portion can be allocated to the decendants of the immigrants so no one will be homeless. I have sooo many ideas for reparations to oppressed groups.

[Duckhunter935]

178. you said earlier those were his words

is that not true?

[BainsBane]

140. You do get that this is not the 1960s, right?

and that political labels that applied fifty years ago are not determinative today? The point is the behavior, not the label. That is for anyone who cares about substance as opposed to empty labels. Some claim to be "progressive" while advancing one right-wing position after another. King's point was about the ways in which well meaning people impede racial justice. It was not about moderates vs. "progressives" fifty years in the future. This obsession with labels is vacuous, completely meaningless. More importantly, it reveals a refusal to reflect on the problem of racial justice.

[Romulox]

145. You have no more right to edit Dr. King's words today than you did in the 1960s.

[lovemydog]

63. Yes.

And I've got someone on another thread trying to tell me that my 'opinion' about this is wrong. I've read his history. As have you. I think we'll still get people telling us we are wrong. Oh well. Maybe some will open their hearts a little, enough to read more of his writings, read more of his history.

[bravenak]

73. I think they should google him.

[lovemydog]

74. That would be a good start.

[BainsBane]

89. Told you, didn't I?

[bravenak]

91. You damn sure did

[Bread and Circus]

49. Aren't white moderates Clinton's base?

Personally I don't think we sould be talking about Martin Luther King here on DU Primaries as I dont think we would know what he would say if he were alive today.

It is obvious Sanders supporters are trying to exploit his credibility. They should stop.

But on the other hand Clinton did employ racist tactics vs Obama in 2007 / 2008. That is a documented fact. So...yeah maybe we shouldn't try so hard to ignore that. She is not racist, but she is definitely an opportunist.

Additionally, her base, which she describes as "hard working white Americans" (her words not mine), is basically comprised of white moderates that aim to promote the status quo. They were the ones who supported her in 2007/2008 and they are the ones supporting her now.

So... I don't know.... what was supposed to be the takeaway from the original post? Don't be white? Don't be moderate? Don't be a white moderate? But vote for Clinton?

[bravenak]

68. If you say so.

Seems to me her base is the Obama coalition. Most blacks, women, hispanics and white democrats seem to be her base.

[JI7]

119. her base is minorities

[Bread and Circus]

179. Really? because they weren't there for her 8 years ago...

They are not a base, they are fair weathered friends.

Big difference.

[JI7]

181. she won all minority groups otherc than african americans

And that was because they loved Obama .

[Bread and Circus]

182. Her base is "hardworking white Americans", she said so herself.

Oh yeah... while you are at it please post how well she did with her African American base in 2007/2008. It wasn't very good.

[JI7]

187. she didn't say they were her base . she didn't do well with african american voters because they

loved Obama. but she was still popular among the group. and the fact that she has such a huge lead right now is proof of it.

[Bread and Circus]

192. White moderates were the base of Clinton's 18,000,000 votes.

Blacks turned their back on her for Obama. It is true Hispanics/Latinos went 2 to 1 for Clinton in 2008 but they were definitely a relatively smaller portion of the total 18,000,000 votes.

It was moderate whites that voted for her then and it is moderate whites voting for her now. That's her base and that why she made the "hardworking white Americans" comment. Do you think when said that it was an accident or a racist faux pas? No, she was trying to turn out her base.

[JI7]

194. most whites vote republican

White population is higher than minority.

[Bread and Circus]

195. You are very confused as to who voted for Clinton in 2008

Your most recent statement is a non sequiter as well. Perhaps you don't understand who voted for Clinton in the 2008 Democratic Primaries, mainly white moderates.

On the other hand it was an alliance between white progressives and blacks who put Obama over the top in 2008.

I am sorry but that's the truth. The numbers don't lie.

[JI7]

196. I'm not confused at all. you dismissed the hispanic vote

Based on what you say no minority can be anyone's base since their numbers are small.

And right now black people are supporting Clinton mostly . If Obama did not run in 2008 she would have kept those votes then also.

[Bread and Circus]

198. The hispanics went 2 to 1 for clinton but it was still a small portion of the 18,000,000 votes

And blacks abandoned her extensively and severely. When people abandon you that's not a base.

But the people who are with her then and with her now are white moderates. That is a base.

I guess you can throw hispanics in there too, if that makes you feel better.

But they are historically moderate.

So to say minorities are her base is misleading.

[JI7]

199. hahaha . Based on that only white people can form anyone's base

[William769]

58. Kick & highly recommended!

[Hortensis]

59. This is a good post, thanks, Bravenak. I think we

studied Dr. King's letter in high school, but I didn't really remember it. I like this part too.

I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that law and order exist for the purpose of establishing justice and that when they fail in this purpose they become the dangerously structured dams that block the flow of social progress.

I think it's a shame, though, that this writer didn't also direct her attention to the vast, mostly white political middle -- moderates leaning both liberal and conservative -- instead of criticizing the behavior of some mostly radical Bernie supporters, whom they and she are misidentifying as "progressives," a fringe group that'll probably dissolve six different directions before long.

Unfortunately, Dr. King is still 100% right that very large parts of both the problem and the solution still belong to moderates, and all others, who prefer comfortable stasis to living up to our great national principle of equality of all.

[bravenak]

70. I think she did what she set out to do.

She knows her stuff. Highly educated. Moreso than many who she is discussing. She is looking at the ideology not the label.

[Hortensis]

76. Yes, and she's being read. But the Bernie followers she's

discussing are relatively few and very likely to stop being a cohesive group before long. Many probably won't even bother to vote once the man who sparked their enthusiasm is off the ticket. I understand they are irritating, but these are not the people Dr. King thought important to bring up to the moral mark.

[bravenak]

78. I'll try then

[Hortensis]

81. :) Give it a press for me too.

[bravenak]

82. I will. I have years of work ahead of me.

[Cha]

64. Imani Gandy tells it.. From your link..

In the wake of the white progressive think pieces decrying the Black Lives Matter activists as rude, stupid, immature, idiots, bullies, participating in a circular firing squad, or alienating allies—as well as similar sentiments expressed on Facebook, Twitter, and in the comments of my previous articles (here and here)—the parallels between the white moderates whom Dr. Martin Luther King criticized in 1963 and certain white progressives whom many Black activists are criticizing in 2015 are clear.

A little background will elucidate the point.

Thank you, bravenak~

[bravenak]

71. Yep!!!

[Cha]

72. ..

[Starry Messenger]

125. Boy, people are going out of their way to misunderstand what she's saying.

Maybe people should read the whole thing.

"The similarities between the white moderate of the 1960s and the white progressive™ of 2015 are remarkable.

And yet many white progressives who are behaving more like the white clergymen who opposed King than the white allies who supported King are the first to criticize the Black Lives Matter activists for not being more like King. They are demanding that Black people follow King’s teachings.

But the King far too many white folks are holding out as an exemplar for current civil rights activists is not the real King. It’s the whitewashed hagiographic version of King. It ignores that King was a disruptor. It ignores that King was a lawbreaker. It ignores that King was not beholden to protesting the right thing, at the right time, in the right space according to white moderates’ timetable."

[randys1]

128. I cant imagine doing what King did, the nerve and raw courage it took is overwhelming.

And I cant imagine being a white member of SNCC back then, you were literally risking your life and your family.

And those same people alive today can be proud for sure, but I bet you wont find a single one of them, Bernie included, who will feel the need to tell Black people their own history or what they should and should not be thinking.

[bravenak]

129. The point of this was so obvious that the were forced to miss it.

[lovemydog]

151. Exactly.

Lots of projection on their part. Got nothing to do with the original post or the article.

Hope you enjoy a wonderful Thanksgiving Starry Messenger.

[Starry Messenger]

153. Thank you, and to you too!

Going great so far, have done all the tasks, I'm even done with my Xmas shopping early this year. From here on in, it's family and food!

[lovemydog]

154. Yay!

I have to go pick up seltzer water for a feast at some friends tomorrow. That's all they trust me to 'cook' rofl.

[Number23]

173. And it also ignores that King was a loud, proud and UNABASHED supporter of black rights

and liberation. Who was actually getting MORE radical towards the end than less. His work for his children and for his people. And I TRULY cannot understand the unwavering need some had to deny or de-emphasize this.

His work on black civil rights and black liberation are the reason that anyone knows his name. It was the reason he won the Nobel Peace Prize. It's the reason he is revered around the world. And it was the reason he was killed.

[ismnotwasm]

135. K&R

[MisterP]

136. the people swinging ten degrees to the right of center when the weather turns foul are trying to use

"Love Me, I'm a Liberal" to indict everyone who stays twenty degrees to the left rain or shine!

[bravenak]

141. Or, maybe folks need to stop in infighting or stop getting upset when the fight doesn't go their way

They are all moderates to me. All to MY RIGHT. All of them. So hearing them call other right wing make me wonder why two groups standing so far to my right think they are lefter than the other. From my perspective they are in the same bunch, far to my right.

[Cheese Sandwich]

175. +1 this

I support the messages of Dr King here and also the full consistent application of those ideas.

[kath]

186. Ha! Nailed it.

[riversedge]

148. Thank you so much.--good readk. And REC

[Empowerer]

164. Thank you

I admire your thoughtfulness and your patience.

The reactions you are getting from so-called liberals is one of the reasons I rarely participate in DU anymore. But it's good to see you trying to shine a light on some important issues.

[bravenak]

166. I appreciate your comments, thank you.

[Thinkingabout]

165. K & R

Enjoyed, don't stop now.

[bravenak]

167. .

[Blue_In_AK]

169. As a white progressive,

I've learned not to touch African-American issues on DU with a 10-foot pole. There is apparently nothing we can do right.

Carry on...

[bravenak]

170. Can listen and not try to take control.

Speak but not try to be the center of discussion.

[Blue_In_AK]

172. You will note, I think, that I don't say much.

[bravenak]

185. I know. You are cool.

[Martin Eden]

171. Most. Dishonest. Thread. Title. Ever.

King spoke of the "white moderate" not the "white progressive."

The two are not synonymous.

Hillary Clinton is a moderate.

Bernie Sanders is a progressive.

[eridani]

180. Nothing in there about progressives--he said white "moderates"

This is an example of the degenerate Reagan thinking that has moved discourse so far to the right. What was "moderate" then is apparently "progressive" now.

[doxyluv13]

188. Haven't you posted this same wrong equivalancy before?

moderates and progressives are different . check your dictionary. please change this misleading title.

[99Forever]

197. Actual truth isn't relevent to slacktavists.

It's all about the stir.

[jfern]

190. No, he was not complaining about white progressives

[Live and Learn]

193. If one feels progressives (for whatever invalid reasons) are the problem, one should

probably vote for the most conservative party candidate (because conservative causes have always done so much more AAs). But, of course you already have endorsed her, haven't you? There I go preaching to the choir again.

[bravenak]

201. MLK felt that his allies were hard to deal with since they were in wait mode.

They wanted him to wait wait wait wait for equality. And look!! We are still waiting. Imagine that.

[jfern]

202. This is such utter bullshit

When he was talking about white moderates, he wasn't talking about progressives, and especially not white members of the SNCC.

The project was organized by the Council of Federated Organizations (COFO), a coalition of the Mississippi branches of the four major civil rights organizations (SNCC, CORE, NAACP and SCLC). Most of the impetus, leadership, and financing for the Summer Project came from the SNCC. Robert Parris Moses (Bob Moses), SNCC field secretary and co-director of COFO, directed the summer project.[1]

Well over 1,000 out-of-state volunteers participated in Freedom Summer alongside thousands of black Mississippians. Most of the volunteers were young, most of them from the North, 90 percent were white, and many were Jewish. Two one-week orientation sessions for the volunteers were held at Western College for Women in Oxford, Ohio (now part of Miami University), from June 14 to June 27,[6] after Berea College backed out of hosting the sessions due to alumni pressure.[7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_Summer

[Lucky Luciano]

203. Hah Imani Gandy. I remember her.

She used to go to a bunch of rave clubs in Los Angeles when I was in grad school. A bunch of my friends were lawyers and she often was with them. I didn't know her too well though myself.

[bravenak]

204. She finished law school and worked for a while.

She's cool. I never met her when I was all up in Hollywood, though. Different crowd. I was a hoodster, she was a college girl. I like her.

[aikoaiko]

206. It's a great document. He also lamented certain Black rights tactics

I have tried to stand between these two forces, saying that we need emulate neither the "do nothingism" of the complacent nor the hatred and despair of the black nationalist. For there is the more excellent way of love and nonviolent protest. I am grateful to God that, through the influence of the Negro church, the way of nonviolence became an integral part of our struggle. If this philosophy had not emerged, by now many streets of the South would, I am convinced, be flowing with blood. And I am further convinced that if our white brothers dismiss as "rabble rousers" and "outside agitators" those of us who employ nonviolent direct action, and if they refuse to support our nonviolent efforts, millions of Negroes will, out of frustration and despair, seek solace and security in black nationalist ideologies--a development that would inevitably lead to a frightening racial nightmare."

MLKs nonviolent direct action, sadly, is seen as passé and denigrated by some contemporary Black activists as "respectability politics".

Thank you for reminding us to read the whole letter.

[bravenak]

208. Yes.

He was saying if non violent tactics did not work, then people would stop believing in it and go to black nationalism... And the violence that comes with it. Things are not much better now than then. It did not work. He was violently murdered for his nonviolent actions. Then cities burned.,
I worry that cities will start burning again. And that it will never stop. We need to stop pretending we can do nothing about racism. It's bullshit.

[aikoaiko]

209. I agree that is bullshit to say that nothing can be done about racism

It just seems like I'm preoccupied with trying to understand microaggressions and sometimes defending against the accusations of it toward me or people in my group, that I don't have time to even consider how to help save lives.

[bravenak]

210. Decide what most important.

Arguing about whether you offended, of just listening to see how you can help. Usually you will be told exactly what the problem is. We care more about living than being offended. You can still help.

[aikoaiko]

211. I want to help.

I think it wasn't until our exchange on this thread that I realized I've been thinking black lives activists don't want me around if I don't agree with everything in this article.

I'd like to join you in saying that shooting black men in the back or who otherwise pose no threat is fucked up and must stop. I'd like to join you in saying that police escalating encounters with black folks to the point where lethal force is given the benefit of the doubt is fucked up and must stop.

But I've been spending most of my time on race issue thinking about, trying to understand, commenting, and, yes, sometime pushing back on whether I am a white supremacist.

You're a good person Bravenak. I sometimes poke back when I think you're poking people like me, but I appreciate your efforts on a certain level.

[bravenak]

212. There are alot of ways to help.

You can get active with your local BLM. Make sure to go to jury duty, and we need more good ones on grand juries. Write complaints to law enforcement so they know where the people stand.
Not only that, there are programs to mentor to disadvantaged youth. Push for laws for body cams and civilian boards that review police conduct.
You are not a white supremacist. You live in a nation founded on that principle, but it is not your fault. Your job is to reject that philosophy and not let it consume you. You know, sometime people just want somebody to listen and understand, you can do that. Be there. Offer a hand. Complain. Magnify the voices of the powerless.

[aikoaiko]

213. Will do more of each except the mentoring

I'm still trying to figure out how to raise my 10-year old son into a good man.

Thank you for this conversation.

[bravenak]

214. Thank you for helping.

And may your son grow up to be awesome.