2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumIf MLK were alive today...
I believe in my heart of hearts that a candidate like Bernie would not be necessary or rather, would likely be the norm.
I believe in my heart of hearts that the US would be a vastly different country today.
I believe that the poor people's campaign would have been a powerful block to be reckoned with. I also believe that is why Dr King was assassinated.
That is one reason why I have trouble giving credence to the notion that Bernie is twisting Dr King's legacy, which seems to be the talking point (and not just on DU) since Killer Mike's most excellent introduction of Bernie in Atlanta and his subsequent assertion that Bernie aligns closely with Dr King's ideals.
For example there is a highly commented post that quotes a single paragraph from an article on another website. Now that paragraph asserts that "people enjoy bastardizing King’s quotes." The funny part of that is that of the 5 points points raised, Bernie aligns well with them.
There are many other examples of this talking point here on DU and out there on the internet. I certainly hope that it drives people to objectively compare Bernie's life, actions and platform to their understanding of what Dr King was all about. When that happens there will be a lot more people feeling the Bern.
So, my thanks to camp weathervane for pushing this issue.
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Uncle Joe
(65,045 posts)Thanks for the thread, hootinholler.
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)
daleanime
(17,796 posts)
Autumn
(48,949 posts)Bernie and Bernie supporters talking about MLK makes a certain group of people very uncomfortable. I'm just going to come out and say it, I believe that it's because a certain candidate just doesn't stack up too well in comparison.
hootinholler
(26,451 posts)I've always found that candidate to be somewhat uncertain.
Autumn
(48,949 posts)
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)
BlueCaliDem
(15,438 posts)president nor the fact that Sanders "thought it would be a good thing for democracy" to primary said first Black president. That much I know for sure. Everything else is speculation.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)...he would have been standing beside "Black Mike" enthusiastically endorsing Bernie.
SEE? You are just making stuff up!
We can ALL play THAT game.
Truth is, YOU have no clue as to what MLK would do today.
I hope he would have already been President for 8 years.
BlueCaliDem
(15,438 posts)
ucrdem
(15,720 posts) JTFrog
(14,274 posts)
DemocratSinceBirth
(101,833 posts)https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=%22Black+Mike%22
???
JTFrog
(14,274 posts)What's next? "Black Obama"? I mean, who could expect anyone to remember a name like Barack? Or Latifah? Or Souljah?
You guys want to keep holding up these POC icons as some sort of trophies, why not show them at least an inkling of respect?
FFS
bravenak
(34,648 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)My husband is Black Mike. They call him that ironically. He's cafe au lait.
sheshe2
(97,379 posts)FFS! His name is Killer Mike.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)Would be the candidate MLK would have endorsed. I am going to go with John Lewis' choice, Hillary Clinton.
DemocratSinceBirth
(101,833 posts)Just like we don't know who Nat Turner, W. E. B. Du Bois, Booker T. Washington, Marcus Garvey, Ralph Ellison, Malcolm X, and so son and so forth would support...Let's let them rest in peace and not rob them of their nuance and complexity...
Since this is coming up again and again there is no man that was closer to Dr. King that is still alive and he is supporting Hillary:
In 1964, Young was named executive director of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference (SCLC), becoming, in that capacity, one of King's principal lieutenants. As a colleague and friend of Martin Luther King Jr., he was a strategist and negotiator during the Civil Rights Campaigns in Birmingham (1963), St. Augustine (1964), Selma (1965), and Atlanta (1966). He was jailed for his participation in civil rights demonstrations, both in Selma, Alabama, and in St. Augustine, Florida. The movement gained congressional passage of the 1964 Civil Rights Act and 1965 Voting Rights Act. Young was with King in Memphis, Tennessee, when King was assassinated in 1968.[5]
Shared first with the AJC, the list shows how Clinton has captured the support of the biggest names in Georgia Democratic politics, starting with civil rights hero and U.S. Rep. John Lewis. Clinton backers include Atlanta Mayor Kasim Reed, former Ambassador to the U.N. Andrew Young, state Democratic Party chairman DuBose Porter and a slew of Gold Dome leaders.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/10/7/1428736/-Civil-Rights-heroes-John-Lewis-and-Andrew-Young-Supporting-Hillary
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)Hillary Clinton, they have said they do and this is a good answer for me. Besides these two have been two great Americans. If Bernie could convince these two to change their endorsement then it would be good for Bernie, if not then it stands where it stands today.
DemocratSinceBirth
(101,833 posts)EOM
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(101,833 posts)EOM
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)To know we have elected the first black for president and know it was from the work he and others has done over the years has made it possible to have elected the first black as president.
DemocratSinceBirth
(101,833 posts)EOM
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(101,833 posts)But you have to be careful when you take historical figures out of their times and place them in your/our times.
JustAnotherGen
(38,024 posts)hootinholler
(26,451 posts)It's a demonstration of how wells are poisoned.
sheshe2
(97,379 posts)28. I think you might be correct, this is an attempt to convince POC Bernie
Would be the candidate MLK would have endorsed. I am going to go with John Lewis' choice, Hillary Clinton.
By listening to John Lewis's words while he is very much alive? Or making stuff up about how a dead icon would view the election.
AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)For instance, saying in an interview with the Atlantic that Obama is to blame for the rise of ISIS. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/08/hillary-clinton-failure-to-help-syrian-rebels-led-to-the-rise-of-isis/375832/&ved=0ahUKEwiG6rXPzLHJAhUY-mMKHRSOD44QFggbMAA&usg=AFQjCNGnrTfVsyEy8k5GCiZlqu6mHlqfeg&sig2=MI2uiG6Nzr8zO-3-guOuSA
And that he's doing it wrong in Syria and Libya.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chapman/ct-hillary-clinton-barack-obama-bernie-sanders-john-kerry-1115-20151113-column.html
Bernie's gentle suggestion (Bernie is always respectful when speaking of Obama) that a primary challenge in 2012 might move Obama back to the ideals of the left pales in comparison to the damaging remarks by Clinton.
BlueCaliDem
(15,438 posts)out of the White House. I'm certain Rev. King would've been criticizing President Obama and some of his decisions, as well, but I seriously doubt he'd support Sanders' public call to primary him, however "gently".
The whole idea behind Rev. King's fight was to empower Blacks so that they'd be equal to Whites in every which way. That's all he ever wanted. He wasn't into "coddling" African Americans, but in empowering them, and that trajectory would NOT include booting the first Black president out of office.
Response to BlueCaliDem (Reply #71)
AtomicKitten This message was self-deleted by its author.
AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)Bernie suggested a debate vis a vis a primary opponent to remind Pres Obama of what he ran and was elected on, instead of veering off into Third Way policy. He never suggested replacing him but rather a debate on policy. The suggestion was fact-based and innocuous.
I will reiterate Hillary blamed the president for the rise of ISIS. Think about that for a minute. That's a really shitty, disrespectful, wrong-headed, and out of line thing to say particularly coming from his SOS. And since you veered into racial politics, I will remind you of the nasty, disrespectful, and shamefully racist campaign Hillary ran against the president in 2008. She and by extension your line of argument re: Bernie don't have a leg to stand on.
BlueCaliDem
(15,438 posts)the Black community. They're looking long-term. But Obama was the start; the beginning; the symbol of struggle for the civil rights movement today. The Black community understand that he's "a man, not a savior", as Rev. Calvin O. Butts III, head of the historic Abyssinian Church in Harlem for 40 years has said.
From ABC News 11/07/2012:
"Change takes time, and to come to this place in time is a sign," Martin Luther King's sister, Christine King Farris, told ABCNews.com in 2008. "This takes me back to my brother's last speech in Memphis," the now 85-year-old college professor said on Election Day that year. "He said, 'I may not get there with you,' but we -- not some Americans, but all Americans - will get to the Promised Land. We are accepted as full-fledged citizens of this country."
But actually going on Thom Hartmann's show, on the Ed Schultz show, and on The Brian Lehrer radio show, calling for a primary challenger for the first Black president of the United States (however "gently"
while said president was already deluged by an avalanche of negative coverage from the press - and without pointing out the unprecedented obstructionism by Republicans in Congress (of which he is a part of) - is what the Black community believes is damaging - to their pride and to their cause. It undermines the reputation of their strongest symbol of civil rights, and it's part of the reason why they came out in unprecedented numbers in 2012 to vote for Obama's reelection.
In 2011, Sanders called for a primary challenge to Obama, saying: “I think one of the reasons the president has been able to move so far to the right is that there is no primary opposition to him… I think it would be a good idea if President Obama faced some primary opposition.”
One is acceptable to the Black community. The other is not. I seriously doubt Civil Rights leader, MLK Jr., would have patted Sanders on the back for his public call to primary President Obama.
However much you dislike Hillary Clinton, she's never gone so far as to make public appearances opining that President Obama should be primaried because "it would be good for democracry" or because people cannot believe "how weak he's been" when negotiating with Republicans. That's damaging.
And since you veered into racial politics,
I didn't "veer into racial politics". You did. The OP suggests that MLK Jr. would have supported Sanders. I made the case, based on MLK Jr.'s past, fighting for equality for Blacks - which gave birth to the Civil Rights Movement, which was an African American movement for equal rights (just like #BlackLivesMatter) - that it's not all too difficult to see that he would NOT have approved of Sanders' call to challenge the first Black president of the United States, as explained above.
I will remind you of the nasty, disrespectful, and shamefully racist campaign Hillary
And it's why the African American community switched completely over to Senator Obama -something Sanders should have thought about before calling for a primary challenger for President Obama. Yes? Thanks for providing proof that she and my line of argument definitely does have a leg to stand on re: Bernie.
African Americans are taking Sanders' call for a 2011 primary challenger to President Obama, personally, as you can see with his 8% support in the Black community in South Carolina.
Although poll numbers go up and down, there's one constant: Sanders is making no inroads with the African American community and if he can't change that weak trajectory, he's toast.
And as they say, figures don't lie. Liars figure.
smiley
(1,432 posts)Did you know MLK personally?
I tend to believe he would've had plenty of criticism for many of Obama's decisions.
BlueCaliDem
(15,438 posts)Here's a hint: for civil rights and equality under the law for Black people.
Everything he's ever fought for was for oppressed Black Americans, who are, even to this very day, the most oppressed. most subjugated, and most impoverished people of the United States.
He would've been proud to see Barack Hussein Obama win the presidential election, and he would've been by his side. Do you think he'd take kindly to Sanders' criticism of President Obama and this White man's call to primary the first Black president of the United States especially when it were Republicans obstructing him the way they have? Take off your Sanders for President cap for a few seconds and think rationally about this for a moment.
smiley
(1,432 posts)MLK struggled for the well being of all races. To argue that only shows it is you who does not know the history of what MLK stood for. Maybe you should actually read his I Have A dream Speech. I'm pretty sure that wasn't just about black people.
But I absolutely agree he would've been proud of Obama's accomplishments but I also believe he would've criticized some of his decisions. Would he have agreed with Bernie calling for a primary of Obama? I can't say. And neither can you. It's pure speculation for both of us and quite irrational to think otherwise.
Btw... If you want to talk about the most oppressed people in the U.S. Why don't you go talk to a Native American and get back to me.
BlueCaliDem
(15,438 posts)Of course he'd want ALL people, regardless of skin color, to enjoy equal rights, but Black people, in particular, were the people he and his organizers through the Civil Rights Movement, fought hardest for.
The Civil Rights movement was a campaign of AFRICAN AMERICANS.
Would he have agreed with Bernie calling for a primary of Obama? I can't say.
I can. If Rev. King were alive today, and a White man (no matter how color blind he is, and I know Sanders IS color blind, among other things) calls to primary President Obama, the first Black man to successfully become the president of the United States, how do you think Rev. King would have reacted? Think he'll say it's a-ok?
Had Bernie Sanders gone to any Black neighborhood in America and opined that maybe it would be a good idea for democracy if President Obama - who was already getting the least favorable news coverage in U.S. media as it was - got a primary challenger, he would have quickly found out just what Rev. King would've thought about that. In fact, Blacks are still deeply upset with Sanders for doing stunt. Remember, Blacks came out in the biggest numbers to date that year to vote for President Obama. Ask yourself why.
smiley
(1,432 posts)but the problem with your current assertion is that Bernie never campaigned for a primary challenger. He made a passing remark that it might be worth considering to have a primary challenger. He didnt go door to door as you suggest.
What you regard as fact is still pure speculation and quite a bit of generalizing in regards to how black people are feeling about Mr. Sanders.
BlueCaliDem
(15,438 posts)It's because there isn't one...except, maybe, for the one in your own mind.
but the problem with your current assertion is that Bernie never campaigned for a primary challenger. He made a passing remark
Again, the problem must be in your own mind because although Sanders never actively campaigned for a primary challenger to President Obama - and I never asserted such a thing - it doesn't take away from the fact that he was making this "passing remark" on the Thom Hartmann show, the Ed Schultz show, and the Brian Lehrer radio show. That's not simply a "passing remark".
He didnt go door to door as you suggest.
Where, exactly, did I suggest he'd gone "door to door"? I clearly posed a scenario. The word "had" should've tipped you off. Or are you just being purposely obtuse?
What you regard as fact is still pure speculation and quite a bit of generalizing in regards to how black people are feeling about Mr. Sanders.
Poll after poll after poll show Sanders' weakness with Black voters. As they say, smiley, figures don't lie. Liars figure. I'll leave it at that.
sheshe2
(97,379 posts)Please stay focused on the discussion at hand.
Thank you.
okasha
(11,573 posts)"It's all about little white me, me ME!"
If you want to have a serious conversation about Native Americans, start a thread. Begin by telling us what Sanders has done for us. Is he willing to enforce the broken treaties? Has he even recognized that our young men suffer from an incarceration rate as disproportionate as African Americans'?
Don't try to play one-up with people of color to promote your hero.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I want to discuss the rapes and the fact that they suffer even MORE POVERTY. In my area they are treated even worse than we are. If I take my black self into a store, they do not follow me if there is an Alaska native they can harass.
okasha
(11,573 posts)It's just another attempt at co-option. I don't believe he gives a flying damn about any people of color.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I hope he does not pay your demographic too much attention. It is not as fun as it looks.
okasha
(11,573 posts)I don't want to see threads about who Crazy Horse would endorse.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Autumn
(48,949 posts)the man certainly valued his allies
I would also like to express my appreciation to Mayor Hartsfield for his constrictive leadership throughout this whole struggle. I have always argued that the silent multitude of the South, who sincerely want fair play to be the hallmark of our society, needed support and encouragement available only from its major leadership to enable them to give open expression to their belief. I consider that Mayor Hartsfield's action illustrates the soundness of this course.5 The best antidote to degeneration of conflict of opinion into maliciousness and violence is statesman-like, firm, expressions of the moral issues giving active support to proper resolution.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)They blamed it for their candidate's loss in 2008, after using it as an attack against hte man for a year, and now they can't think of anything else.
BlueCaliDem
(15,438 posts)I've made the case in this thread that he most certainly would have criticized President Obama, but ONLY where it was fair to criticize him. But, of course, unlike Sanders, I believe Rev. King would take all the variables in account - including Congress' unprecedented Republican obstructionism - before taking his criticisms public.
I seriously doubt, though, that he would have called for a primary challenger to the first Black U.S. president, considering that all Americans, especially within the African American community, consider Obama's White House win as a symbol of the struggles and a victory for civil rights.
Autumn
(48,949 posts)This is what the OP claims
I believe in my heart of hearts that a candidate like Bernie would not be necessary or rather, would likely be the norm.
I believe in my heart of hearts that the US would be a vastly different country today.
I believe that the poor people's campaign would have been a powerful block to be reckoned with. I also believe that is why Dr King was assassinated.
So, my thanks to camp weathervane for pushing this issue.
As to your issues about Obama and MLK and Bernie I am bothered by none of that. Obama goes down in history in 2016 and we get a new president and I agree with the entire quote and reasoning Bernie gave regarding a primary. No one knows what Dr. King would have done or said. We only know his actions and words up to a certain point. The rest is all speculation.
BlueCaliDem
(15,438 posts)Autumn
(48,949 posts)The speculation come in on your assertion as to what MLK would do in regards to criticisms of Obama and what actions he would have done there.
BlueCaliDem
(15,438 posts)he'd be more aligned with Bernie Sanders, clearly implying that Rev. King would have supported Bernie Sanders. If you're fine with the OP making these assertions, then you should be ok with me for doing the very same thing. I mean, IF you're fair.
Autumn
(48,949 posts)The OP did no such thing. Out of those 5 points listed in that linked OP Bernie lines up better with MLK on his stand on those issues than Hillary but that in no way implies that MLK would endorse Bernie, that simply asserts an opinion by a person. You may have read what the OP said as an implication, I learned a long time ago not to put words in someone else's mouth. We can play this game all day long but I have better thing to do than sit here while you attempt to convince me words are in an OP that simply aren't there.
hootinholler
(26,451 posts)Um, where?
This twisting is what we deal with day in and day out.
BlueCaliDem
(15,438 posts)If MLK were alive today...I believe in my heart of hearts that a candidate like Bernie would not be necessary or rather, would likely be the norm.
since Killer Mike's most excellent introduction of Bernie in Atlanta and his subsequent assertion that Bernie aligns closely with Dr King's ideals.
I certainly hope that it drives people to objectively compare Bernie's life, actions and platform to their understanding of what Dr King was all about. When that happens there will be a lot more people feeling the Bern.
If that's not strong implication that Rev. King would have endorsed Bernie Sanders without actually coming out and saying the "e" word, then I don't know what is.
hootinholler
(26,451 posts)For demonstrating the exact point the OP is about.
Were you already logged in when you clicked the camp weathervane link?
Response to hootinholler (Reply #203)
Post removed
LiberalArkie
(19,745 posts)On Sat Nov 28, 2015, 03:39 PM an alert was sent on the following post:
No, thank YOU
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=856090
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Cha
(318,746 posts)
MuttLikeMe
(279 posts)
Number23
(24,544 posts)being appropriated by others, particularly others that don't give the first damn about us as a people. Conservatives have claimed MLK for decades. Communists have also claimed MLK. Socialists have claimed MLK.
The main thing we do know about MLK is that he was a passionate advocate for black people and black rights. It's the reason the entire world knows his name. It's the reason he was beaten and jailed. It's the reason he was killed. We also know that he didn't endorse politicians.
So I don't know who Camp Weathervane is but if they are joining black people in asking non-blacks to stop chasing the black vote by insulting the very people they are pretending to woo, then good for them. Perhaps people should listen instead of acting as though they know better (YET AGAIN) when with every word, they show that they know absolutely nothing.
BlueCheese
(2,522 posts)They use it to imply that her positions change based on the prevailing wind.
I have serious doubts myself about whether using terms like that is helpful, either in promoting reasonable discussion, or in convincing Clinton supporters to change their minds.
Number23
(24,544 posts)Truly.
I'm interested in talking with people here as human beings. It seems that some here constantly have something to sell. Their pitch is way too hard. When it's too hard, it insults and denigrates other people. Objectifying others, constantly attacking Hillary supporters or Sanders supporters, it's just tiresome & exhausting.
I will gladly talk with anyone here who is interested in talking as people. Not as pawns to sell something. Whatever they're trying to 'sell' - I'm not buying. I hope people will read more about King's life and legacy. Read books by and about him in their entirety. Stop using him as a slogan for someone else's campaign. It's insulting.
I'm not saying stop talking about him. I'm saying stop claiming that he would endorse someone's presidential campaign. His entire life and legacy was about far more than that. It was about advocacy for black people and black rights. And also for the poor and downtrodden from every walk of life. That should not be interpreted as endorsing Bernie or Hillary or anyone running for President. My guess, based on what I've read, is that he would have been able to work with them on some issues but also that he would have kept demanding more, out of love and dignity. And that would have made some of the politicians and some of their more rabid supporters uncomfortable. Because he was not into doing what they want him to do.
The things you're saying are accurate. They are based in history, history that's available to anyone else who wants to learn more about Dr. King. I urge anyone reading this to learn more, beyond the sloganeering or cut and paste excerpts that appear like advertising slogans.
Thanks for talking like a human being and not a shrill mouthpiece.
BlueCheese
(2,522 posts)
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)I hope you're enjoying a nice post-Thanksgiving holiday weekend.
I'm chowing on leftovers from friends. Just saw a documentary called Unbranded, about some folks who rode a dozen wild horses all the way from Mexico to Canada. Highly recommended. Have a great weekend!
tishaLA
(14,769 posts)
jalan48
(14,914 posts)A black man who grew up in difficult circumstances and who became a renowned nero-surgeon. I don't think Dr. King would be supporting any one candidate, I believe he would be focused on racial and economic inequality like he did in the 60's.
Number23
(24,544 posts)And think that I have even PRETENDED to allude that MLK would support him or anyone else, that goes a long towards explaining your confusion.
It's so funny to see DUers butcher the names of black folks. (This isn't necessarily directed at you btw but it just reminded me) I see people acting like Killer Mike's endorsement of Sanders is the greatest thing since eggs and ham but call him "Big Mike" or, even more hilariously "Black Mike."
Yeah, his endorsement is so massive and so important that we can't even be bothered to get his name right! 
jalan48
(14,914 posts)I don't think MLK would support him either, but then I can't speak for him. I do think he would be fighting for the rights of the disadvantaged though, regardless of color.
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)The issues that he concerned himself with went beyond one candidate or another.
His writings are available free online and in book form at places like amazon.
Here's a good place to start:
https://kinginstitute.stanford.edu/king-papers/about-papers-project
jalan48
(14,914 posts)He was beyond endorsing, I agree. I have read a bit by and about him, I was in college when he was assassinated. And then, only a few months later Robert Kennedy was killed. Strange coincidence.
DemocratSinceBirth
(101,833 posts)It would be odd for someone to think that was s rapper's real name.
BTW, someone here confused Queen Latifah and Sister Souljah and still hasn't corrected the spelling of their names despite having a month to do so.
kath
(10,565 posts)here and elsewhere, whether the people concerned are white, black, brown, red, yellow, orange or purple. They even make typos.
Number23
(24,544 posts)bit, a LOT) is the greatest thing since sliced bread. 
Not buying what you're selling. Never have. Never will.
sheshe2
(97,379 posts)I use to roll it up into tiny balls and shoot them across the kitchen.
murielm99
(32,967 posts)It was allowed to stay, 5-2.
sheshe2
(97,379 posts)Ha. Sadly you are not.
Would you please mail me the results. Please, thanks murielm99.
George II
(67,782 posts)
I grew up on Wonder Bread.
murielm99
(32,967 posts)Fried bacon sandwiches with Wonder Bread.
Sugar sandwiches. Put some butter or margarine on a piece of Wonder Bread. Load it down with sugar. Fold it over and run back outside with it, to eat it on the run while playing. If your hands were dirty and grubby, all the better!
Of course, we did have all the healthy stuff, too. My family had a garden. I don't think we ate as much meat, and it was fresher, without all the additives. My mother went to a butcher who had a meat counter. She ordered each thing individually and had it wrapped. We had a milkman. When we lived in an area that was off his route, we went to a creamery.
I was able to do a number of those things while my kids were growing up. But I still live in the country, so I can think about what I eat, and make choices.
George II
(67,782 posts)...about 5 years old at the time:
murielm99
(32,967 posts)I don't remember Howdy Doody having such a deep voice. Wasn't he supposed to be a little boy puppet?
SidDithers
(44,333 posts)DU's foremost expert on MLK and the black experience managed to butcher that one.
Sid
JTFrog
(14,274 posts)And the recent "Queen Latifa" "Sista Soulja" moment.
DU is pretty hostile and toxic right now.
kath
(10,565 posts)You're not suggesting he would be supporting Ben Carlson.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=854305
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Grotesquely inappropriate snark with no basis in the remark it replies to. Please hide this stinker, thank you.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Nov 27, 2015, 04:42 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
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Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: This doesn't even read as though it's replying to the right post. Ben Carson? Where in the original post does THAT come from? I'm willing to believe that this person misunderstood the post he was replying to or didn't consider that a reader wouldn't read it in the tone the poster imagined, but associating MLK with Ben Carson still seems hide-worthy to me.
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Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.
jalan48
(14,914 posts)I don't believe King is anything like Carson other than they are both black. I don't think people can all be lumped in a particular group simply because of race.
kath
(10,565 posts)that you were responding to the part of Number 23's post about "The main thing we do know about MLK is that he was a passionate advocate for black people and black rights." , which could be taken (as some posters have been wont to do here) as implying that King was lumping people in a particular group simply because of race. Some people on DU have been doing this "lumping" and implying that King did so too -- especially when they mis-use King's statement about white MODERATES to imply that he had disdain for ALL white people, conveniently ignoring favorable statements he made about white people(liberals) who SUPPORTED the movement for equality.
jalan48
(14,914 posts)Even though King fought for black rights he was fighting for more than that. He reached out to all people, regardless of color. Just because Ben Carson is black it doesn't mean that Dr. King, would support Carson's ideas if King were alive today. It's about more than race.
he also spoke out quite vigorously against the war in Vietnam. Would be interesting to ponder what he might think about all of the US's wars in the past 50 years... Reading his complete statements about the Vietnam war in detail might shed some light on his opinions on war in general and the MIC and how hawk-ish or not he might be in today's climate...
jalan48
(14,914 posts)He was also working on a "Poor People's" march in DC that would have included people of all races-it was about the economic inequality that existed in the US at that time. . He was killed during the time of the planning for this march.
kath
(10,565 posts)the color of their skin...
Number23
(24,544 posts)And once again, that comment was in reference to his children. He wanted them and other black children to be judged by the content of their character and not their skin color.
But you and jalan please continue with your public/private conversation. It is absolutely hilarious.
Number23
(24,544 posts)TALKING about??!
Number23
(24,544 posts)34. The context of your post wasn't real clear,but I have enough neurons to rub together to figure out
that you were responding to the part of Number 23's post about "The main thing we do know about MLK is that he was a passionate advocate for black people and black rights." , which could be taken (as some posters have been wont to do here) as implying that King was lumping people in a particular group simply because of race. Some people on DU have been doing this "lumping" and implying that King did so too -- especially when they mis-use King's statement about white MODERATES to imply that he had disdain for ALL white people, conveniently ignoring favorable statements he made about white people(liberals) who SUPPORTED the movement for equality.
Please spell out what this "race lumping" you're talking about means.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)Exactly.
And I said I was going to stay off DU today..... (And leaving, hopefully, right after I hit "post." That is my intention, anyway.)
I'm a Bernie supporter. But I just don't understand what is with this (as I perceive it) obsession with "MLK would have supported Bernie." And the obsession (again, as I perceive it) with getting people to agree.
Nobody knows, OK? Although I find the information that he did not endorse politicians (had not noticed one way or the other, at the time) pretty conclusive. Give it a rest?
And "Camp Weathervane" doesn't help either, as pointed out below. I desperately don't want Hillary to be the nominee, but name-calling (as opposed to pointing out specific actions) kinda bugs me.
Just my $0.02.
Number23
(24,544 posts)on DU lately and I promised myself I'd stay away today.
And even knowing that the "MLK would endorse Bernie" is the lowest form of baiting and applauded by the most clueless, hateful people here, I still find myself drawn in for no other reason than the blatant IGNORANCE and wilful distortion. But that's my own fault for getting sucked in. I'm usually much better at not allowing that to happen.
But there is something about the deliberate white washing (pun intended) of MLK by too many here that just sets my teeth on edge and gets me fighting. And sometimes it's hard to let the stupidity just sit there unchallenged.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)Number23
(24,544 posts)
cheapdate
(3,811 posts)I think you should leave some room below, because race-baiting can most certainly go lower than that.
Number23
(24,544 posts)I have no doubt you think your statement is correct. And that many others here would agree with you.
cheapdate
(3,811 posts)I believe lower forms of race-baiting exist -- much, much lower.
I stand by my statement, as it appears you stand by yours.
Number23
(24,544 posts)people all over the world to prop up a candidate for office. And it's even more egregious when the long dead icon is being used because he is a minority and the candidate in question has a very widely known, widely discussed issue connecting with minority communities.
If you think that anything lower than that exists in politics, I'm as equally unsurprised as I am uncaring.
hootinholler
(26,451 posts)That might be a tad lower.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)This may well be my last post here.
"Cudgel"??
That's what I perceive some Bernie "supporters" as trying to do.
And I'm a Bernie "supporter." (I'll put that in quotes so as to not seem to be differentiating.)
My solace is that I don't think DU will make any difference. I really need to get outta here.
hootinholler
(26,451 posts)Really?
Then I suggest you haven't been paying attention.
The M.O. has been to poison the well asserting that Bernie has no fucks to give for minorities and then use any reference to a stellar civil rights record as a cudgel to beat down voices they would rather not hear. When the reference doesn't quite fit their narrative, it gets twisted much as it has in this thread.
This has been going on since the day Bernie announced. This latest round has been to assert by implication that white Bernie supporters have co-opted Dr King's legacy because they can't or won't play that card with Killer Mike directly.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)Thank goodness DU won't make any difference. Hope Bernie can survive his "supporters."
Juicy_Bellows
(2,427 posts)cheapdate
(3,811 posts)Even if the point seems to elude some.
Number23
(24,544 posts)for your trouble. So well done. Not that I suspect it will make even the tiniest bit of difference. Not to you.
hootinholler
(26,451 posts)That's your assertion? In addition to the post I referenced int the OP, here are 3 more that do just that.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=842847
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=847832
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=848558
Here's one that uses cultural difference as a cudgel:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=849621
Those are all currently on the first page right here in GD: P. The tactic goes way back here. But that doesn't make the tiniest bit of difference. Not to you.
There is one here claiming to be a Sanders supporter and her concern is noted, and I missed the parts where you are telling those posters to knock it off.
Number23
(24,544 posts)
And if I'm not mistaken, bravenak posts ARTICLES. You know things that have been written by OTHER PEOPLE.
In one of the ones that she posted recently, it was Sanders himself that started the MLK comparisons. Bravenak didn't use that cudgel on Sanders. He used it on himself. And if he had better advisers they'd probably tell him that's not a way to go about endearing yourself to the black community.
Killer Mike's comment that "Sanders was an extension of MLK" was incredibly stupid but the brother has a right to his opinion. And bravenak's post about MLK upsetting white people as much today as BLM is every bit the spot on, 100% truth. The truth is when MLK was alive, he was absolutely DESPISED by the vast majority of white people. BLM is actually doing better among whites today, and that includes Sanders supporters still mouth frothing over their unmitigated GALL to interrupt him at a few events, than King ever did among the whites of his day. For every incredibly brave, conscientious white person that supported King, there were probably 20 that wanted him dead.
And why would I tell any Sanders supporters who are disgusted by your OP as everyone else to knock it off? Those need to be the first people that you listen to. But like I said, we both know that you won't. Thanks for confirming it.
cheapdate
(3,811 posts)what it is and how it works, and furthermore I reject your self-declared prerogative to serve as the self-appointed trustee of MLK's legacy.
MLK will forever stand among the most important figures in our nation's history. His legacy is our legacy, and by "our" I mean Americans. People will be invoking the example of MLK long after you and I are gone from this world. You can't control it and neither can I.
I have nothing more to say to you.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)So he's my father's legacy, who was a terrible racist? He's a modern-day skinhead's legacy?
I gotta get out of here. If it would make a difference in the primary or the general I might hang around, but it won't.
cheapdate
(3,811 posts)Our American legacy includes all of it, the good and the bad. Japanese internment camps and the women's suffrage movement. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. and General Robert E. Lee. Sitting Bull and Theodore Roosevelt. Allen Ginsberg and Senator Eugene McCarthy.
Do what you will, but you won't escape our history.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)I'm out. Hope Bernie can survive his "supporters."
cheapdate
(3,811 posts)SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)cheapdate
(3,811 posts)Autumn
(48,949 posts)SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)Autumn
(48,949 posts)Autumn
(48,949 posts)Thank you for this post.
Number23
(24,544 posts)What an embarrassingly stupid thing to post. Not only have I done no such thing, but you are skipping like Little Red Riding Hood past this odious OP -- which is doing the EXACT thing that you are trying to criticize me for -- so that you can launch your idiotic retorts to a black person who takes issue with people co-opting King's legacy in order to prop up their political candidate.
I have nothing more to say to you.
Judging by your contemptible responses, it's really too bad you didn't take that position from the very start.
cheapdate
(3,811 posts)is your reckless outburst in post #49 -- whereupon a heated but civil discussion turned uncivil. You say you "promised myself I'd stay away today" yet you managed to make an appearance just to declaim the "ignorance" and "hateful" character of those others in the conversation with whom you disagree.
No one other than you resorted to those terms prior to your outburst. You lose.
Number23
(24,544 posts)You guys have dug a whole for yourselves so big, wide and deep it will take 100 years of academic research to adequately study and close it. I am not the one creating the ignorant hostility. I am merely one of DOZENS of people calling it out.
So very curious that I am the one you decided to "grace" with your comments.
JI7
(93,546 posts)Who not listen to them.
And i have no idea how someone got the idea that king would endorse carson from your post.
Number23
(24,544 posts)many others.
But like I said, there is something about the deliberate attempts to distort and whitewash MLK's legacy that sets my teeth on edge. I just won't stand for it.
Number23
(24,544 posts)JI7
(93,546 posts)But i said before that these people have been posting this type of stuff even before Sanders was running.
I think they hate Clinton and other democrats more than they support sanders.
Autumn
(48,949 posts)I believe in my heart of hearts that a candidate like Bernie would not be necessary or rather, would likely be the norm.
I believe in my heart of hearts that the US would be a vastly different country today.
I believe that the poor people's campaign would have been a powerful block to be reckoned with. I also believe that is why Dr King was assassinated.
How is it embarrassing when a black rapper endorses and praised Bernie Sanders because that black man considers Bernie to closely fit his beliefs and ideals?
How is it embarrassing when it is pointed out that 5 points from an article posted here, that those points raised in that article are stands that Bernie has been in agreement on? Which part is embarrassing?
kath
(10,565 posts)Hmmmm.
Great post, with very good points, Autumn.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)But not for trying to tie him to Bernie, and especially for trying to get others to agree. I would even say bludgeoning others (just MHO) to agree.
Bernie stands on his own. I'm a Bernie supporter.
I learned here that MLK did not endorse politicians. Maybe we could leave it at that?
Or not. Whatever. I really don't think DU is going to affect the election, either primary or general, and I really should stop spending my time here, therefore.
hootinholler
(26,451 posts)In YHO of course.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)Thank whomever that DU will make no difference whatsoever in either the primary or the general.
This has decided me. I'm going to try to find out where my friends went and then get out of Dodge.
And why you think this is helpful to Bernie I have no idea. (I'm charitably assuming you do think that, although your logic escapes me.)
bravenak
(34,648 posts) SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)I've really gotta get outta here. Hope this place doesn't hurt Bernie too much. Silly me! I think/hope it is irrelevant, although I will say I have learned a lot here.
I may have asked you before, but could you please pm me links to where I should go for good conversation?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)You can try dailykos, our friend Kev is there, and I have an account. If enough of us migrate I will too.
I understand what you mean.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)And try to ignore everything else.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Whichever forums or groups are the worst, trash. You can trash key words too. I put killer mike in my trash can so I don't have to see a hundred posts a day about him. A few other key words too.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)At least in that instance, it made some conversations I was interested in unintelligible. So that's the last time I did that.
But that was ignoring an individual, come to think of it. I've not tried trashing entire forums or groups. Guess I should give it a shot.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)It won't come up in latest threads. I did that. I only see gdp when I feel like going there on purpose.
Autumn
(48,949 posts)I fail to see any bludgeoning of others in the OP to get them to agree, so if it's there you'll have to point it out. A discussion board is a place to discuss issues and events. A black man compared Bernie to MLK so that makes it a current event for discussion.
Surely a black man like Killer Mike has every right to endorse whom he chooses, and if he chooses Bernie and gives a speech no one has a right to complain about his feeling on MLK and Bernie. Bernie supporters who wish to discuss it have every right to do so.
No MLK didn't endorse but he did support, I posted that down thread. As for leaving it at that, no one here has to discuss MLK if they chose not to but those who do want to discuss him have every right to do so. As a Bernie supporters I believe Bernie stand on his own also and head and shoulders above the rest.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)And also previous posts of this ilk.
I desperately want Bernie to win and Hillary to not. And I'm not going to change that based on some of his "supporters."
But I'm really sick of some "supporters" tone, tone-deafness, lack of listening (IMHO), name-calling.
Fortunately, DU will not make a difference in the primary or the general.
I stay here because it's seriously the only format I like and I like enough of the people.
But a lot of the people seem to have gone elsewhere, and format isn't everything.
I really need to get out of Dodge. Wonder if there's an app that lets you block yourself from websites in your own best interest?
Autumn
(48,949 posts)if you want to "get out of Dodge"
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)Thank goodness DU won't actually affect anything. I'll miss the mild amusement, but I really should be doing better things with my time anyway.
hootinholler
(26,451 posts)He'll take care of the rest.
Ask Walt Star.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)I'm mildly interested, not having anything much else to do at the moment.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I was not here yet.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)I'm not demanding to be banned, nor even "threatening" to leave. Just expressing an opinion and a hope that I can act in my own best interest.
I'd try to help Bernie here if I thought I could. I don't. I don't think anyone can - it's been tried
bravenak
(34,648 posts)He needs to pay attention
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)Since Thom Hartmann hosted "Brunch with Bernie" for over a decade, and also quotes this place, you'd think. Anybody got Hartmann's ear? You'd think he'd notice on his own. Or Bernie, but I'd really expect Hartmann to notice.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)He knows.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)I hear him talk about white privilege on my way in to work. And hear him quote DU. He needs to speak up here.
Yeah, I know I'm saying "you should," which gets my back up. But I don't have a radio/TV talk show.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Nothing will matter unless BERNIE says it. His job. He needs to FIRE DIVINE. His campaign manager. Fire him.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)I admit to not paying enough attention in enough detail.
Please tell me about this campaign manager of whom you speak.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)OK, I take it back about DU not making a difference.
This should be front-page news for people who want progressives to win.
I am about to be physically ill.
Thank you for this information, which in a rational world I should have known but didn't. My very bad.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)people are ignoring stuff that bothers them. Not you. Just people.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)Probably a Heinlein quote about that, but I gotta go to bed now.
Really can't afford to ignore reality if you want your candidate to win, though. And I do, desperately.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I am ambivalent in all actuality. But this stuff bothers me immensly. Good night.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)People - what are you gonna do?
Read _Double Star_? Or _Take Back Your Government_?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I know I'm gonna log off of here and read me a romance or a mystery. Or Dance With Dragons in German. Working my way through slowly. I figure, once I finish that tome, I'll be able to read anything in german. Then, french! Same book.
joshcryer
(62,536 posts)It's speculating about what MLK would've done in a continuation of the regular race baiting articles that Sanders "supporters" can't let go ever since BLM.
We can argue all day and night about what MLK would've done or could've done, but I suspect that not much would've been different. He would've fought for a basic income but it would not have passed. He probably would've focused on redlining and breaking up redlining in various cities, that may have had an impact, since we still see redlining today. Probably would have fought against the drug war, but it would've been a losing battle with the rise of the neocons.
But I'm not going to fight with the OP about this, because I know what it is, just a cludge between Sanders "supporters" and most of the AA posters who see it that way as well. And if you disagree, why is it that so many AA posters here are pissed off?
Autumn
(48,949 posts)I believe in my heart of hearts that a candidate like Bernie would not be necessary or rather, would likely be the norm.
I believe in my heart of hearts that the US would be a vastly different country today.
I believe that the poor people's campaign would have been a powerful block to be reckoned with. I also believe that is why Dr King was assassinated.
You must have missed the link in the OP to a black rapper endorsing Sanders in a speech and talking about his views and his comparisons of Bernie to MLK
But Sanders supporters should shut up not talk about an endorsement of the candidate they support by a black rapper, on a political discussion board so nobody gets pissed.
Yeah right.
joshcryer
(62,536 posts)But this isn't a Killer King endorsement thread. This is speculation thread about MLK ushering in more Sanders' types which I don't think is established at all. It's piggybacking off of sentiment and appropriating MLK's legacy.
Of course, there's the tidbit about the endorsement. Killer King did not in any way make the comparison. He said Sanders was "like an extension of Dr. King," which is perfectly reasonable. Killer King did not in any way imply that "Bernie would not be necessary or rather, would likely be the norm" if MLK wasn't assassinated.
See where this is going? It's completely convoluted crap to rile up AA posters.
And to underscore that point? The part of the OP you're leaving out that supposedly "praises MLK" directly uses it to call out an AA poster who chose to highlight a part of of an MLK article against misquoting, in order to mock that poster ("The funny part of that" .
And btw, I thought the shit posting about Killer Mikes lyrics (in order to stir shit over his endorsement) was shot down pretty damn fucking fine by the AA community here, but no, the AA community won't get credit for that. They were more annoyed by the trotting KM out over and over as some sort of prize. Which ironically the OP is doing, while also using MLK as speculation fuel.
Autumn
(48,949 posts)to skip those and not comment.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)That's the way I perceive it as well. And not just KM. And I'm so sick of it.
Yeah, I said I was getting out of here. I'm off right now to try to figure out how to "trash" a forum. Many thanks to those who stay and try to discuss, but I don't think it's ever going to work. There is no real communication going on here.
Puglover
(16,380 posts)Seriously.
You are right about one thing. There is no communication going on here. Physician heal thyself.
Autumn
(48,949 posts)
joshcryer
(62,536 posts)Not one iota. They are just slacktivists who are using Sanders for their own agenda. I meet none of these people with these toxic ideas in real life. Only online.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)Seriously afraid, as in "Bernie might not win on account of them."
murielm99
(32,967 posts)get to decide what MLK would do?
(Damn...I was going to stay out of this thread, then I got involved in the Wonder Bread thingy. Oh well...)
Every time I see one of these fucking sideshows all I think is "you're hurting not helping you idiots."
Bobbie Jo
(14,344 posts)Just stop. This crusade is getting increasingly cringeworthy with every proclimation.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)
MisterP
(23,730 posts)99Forever
(14,524 posts)
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts) WillyT
(72,631 posts)
alittlelark
(19,138 posts)
If MLK were alive today...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251854150
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
"my thanks to camp weathervane"
This kind of name calling is uncalled for. It doesn't help any of our candidates and it just fosters divisiveness.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Nov 27, 2015, 04:24 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: This OP connects a current member of DU here 'highly commented post' with a nasty insult here 'camp weathervane'. The OP said that post was pushing an issue that it then thanked 'camp weathevane' for and linked to a site that has been a sore spot here on DU. Spurring many nasty, contentious, juvenile, over the top, snotty, childish, name calling, petty, ridiculous, threads that have made DU SUCK TREMENDOUSLY for everyone. I'm going to guess that the OP hasn't had enough of that kind of environment and needed more of it and decided to start this tacky and tremendously suck worthy thread. Thanks for starting something that makes DU suck. Hide.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I would like to alert on the ALERTER !!!!
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: A celebrity introducing Sen. Sanders did make the reference to Dr. King. The comparison can be argued in its own right. The degree of disagreement engendered is still well within the zone of political discussion. There's nothing to suggest that the comparison itself is disruptive or inappropriate.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Grow up, crybaby.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.
hootinholler
(26,451 posts)When they clicked on camp weathervane.
The assertions being made about this post are informative.
OnyxCollie
(9,958 posts)AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service
Mail Message
On Fri Nov 27, 2015, 04:15 PM an alert was sent on the following post:
If MLK were alive today...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251854150
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
"my thanks to camp weathervane"
This kind of name calling is uncalled for. It doesn't help any of our candidates and it just fosters divisiveness.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Nov 27, 2015, 04:24 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: This OP connects a current member of DU here 'highly commented post' with a nasty insult here 'camp weathervane'. The OP said that post was pushing an issue that it then thanked 'camp weathevane' for and linked to a site that has been a sore spot here on DU. Spurring many nasty, contentious, juvenile, over the top, snotty, childish, name calling, petty, ridiculous, threads that have made DU SUCK TREMENDOUSLY for everyone. I'm going to guess that the OP hasn't had enough of that kind of environment and needed more of it and decided to start this tacky and tremendously suck worthy thread. Thanks for starting something that makes DU suck. Hide.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I would like to alert on the ALERTER !!!!
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: A celebrity introducing Sen. Sanders did make the reference to Dr. King. The comparison can be argued in its own right. The degree of disagreement engendered is still well within the zone of political discussion. There's nothing to suggest that the comparison itself is disruptive or inappropriate.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Grow up, crybaby.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)I have to vote for Bernie.
marym625
(17,997 posts)But not surprising shit is being twisted. Again.
K&R
ucrdem
(15,720 posts)It doesn't get better the deeper you dig.
BainsBane
(57,746 posts)I imagine people would be treating him as they do Black Lives Matter. It's easy to revere a figure from a half century ago, someone who doesn't challenge white privilege today. What actual commitment to Civil Rights means is standing up for racial equality--black lives--rather than reducing a movement to the equivalent of a campaign ad, as though King's legacy means nothing more than promoting a single man's political career. I will take my lessons on King's legacy from African Americans and historians, not from those whose singular fixation is a promoting one member of the political elite.
I don't know what Bernie has said about King or what that conversation on DU has been. I have, however, seen people here repeatedly proclaim that people of color are uninformed or suffering from Stockholm Syndrome because they refuse to prioritize the career of one politician above black lives, and above a Civil Rights movement to save those lives, and because they don't vote as a self-entitled segment of the white elite demands. In the face of such hostility to the rights and voices of African Americans, this attempt at appropriating King's legacy for political propaganda is particularly pernicious. Those who see the majority of African Americans as unfit to make their own democratic choices unsurprisingly feel entitled to take from black folks, including their very history, even as they denounce a contemporary Civil Rights movements as insufficiently deferential to white "progressives" and Bernie in particular.
We have a Civil Rights movement going on right now today--people continuing to carry on the struggle than MLK started. We all know how various Americans have responded to that movement, who has declared it a Soros conspiracy, who insisted that BLM had no right to interrupt some as important as Bernie Sanders. That tells us much of what we need to know about what people's views on race and civil rights are. The whitewashing of King's legacy and opportunistic appropriation of history is a continuation of those same efforts. Civil Rights becomes about Bernie. He is what matters most--not the horrific, violent racism that afflicts America today or the historic and contemporary struggle for racial equality, but Bernie.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)I'm out once I can pry myself away from this thread. (I'm only human...)
I comfort myself that DU has no effect IRL and that Bernie and/or his people do not know what is going on here (I assume).
Thom Hartmann does quote this place - I think he should rethink that.
Number23
(24,544 posts)and the many other sane, decent, non-clueless, non-hostile, non-paternalistic Sanders supporters. And hopefully the echo chamber DU has become this year hasn't run all of you off or rattled too many brains.
I told F4lconF16 in his post in the AA forum, where he as a young white man was bemoaning and face palming over these people as well, that it was up to him and other Sanders supporters to fix this shit. Although Falcon made it VERY clear that he was not a Sanders supporter (and one of the reasons for that being the caliber of other Sanders supporters) I think my point to him still stands.
This sad OP has 39 recs on the biggest pro-Bernie web site outside of berniesanders.com. And a slew of other white people, including Sanders supporters of many hues, are openly noting how revolting it is. Now you and I know it probably won't make one lick of difference to the OP and his crew but there may be somebody else reading this train wreck and who may see how black members and clued in whites -- including clued in Sanders supporters -- are responding to it and decide, "hey I was going to do a poster/button of Bernie with MLK but now maybe I won't. This kind of stuff seems to do alot more harm than good."
You have got an incredibly tough job but I know that you're up for it. And you won't be alone. Not even close.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)I'm really disgusted here, and, as it stands, hope I am right about DU not making any difference.
Response to Number23 (Reply #134)
Post removed
joshcryer
(62,536 posts)Social media is its own beast. I've been castigated about this before by other AA posters here and there's nothing I can fucking do. I can't post in the Sanders group any criticism of the tactics being displayed, I got banned for that once already. I have too many "supporters" on ignore, so I can't defend myself when attacked. It falls on deaf ears. There's literally nothing I can say or do to make Sanders "supporters" stand back and stop polarizing the AA community here or have a modicum of respect. I learned that the hard way over BLM and how utterly vile crap was allowed to stay and even championed.
If you're not nasty you're not good enough. BTW, I leveled this same criticism at Bill over at the HRCS forum. It's like, wow, to be a Clinton supporter you have to be downright nasty to Sanders supporters, and vice versa?
Fuck it. I'll just close my browser or put you on ignore.
Number23
(24,544 posts)They come after the posters who are rightfully upset about this kind of idiocy. Sanders supporters up and down the Internet have called these people out. IT DOES NOTHING. As bravenak said, it probably won't stop until Sanders himself says something. And probably even then it won't have an impact. Because these people have convinced themselves that they are right and every body else is wrong even though this is the reason that SO MANY PEOPLE have said that they are reticent about supporting Sanders. This is one of the main reasons that he is losing!
And some of them aren't even content enough to speak for dead black people, they want to talk for LIVING ones too, as the ever so special individual who keeps popping up to "remind" me of what I allegedly said during the 2008 primaries, but never, EVER has links to support any of their idiotic assertions, proves over and over again. Not that anything she's talking about has fuck all to do with anything anyway.
Many of the black posters here don't bother anymore. We have long since stopped. Sanders supporters have got to be the ones to step up and do this. Who else is going to do this??? Everyone else is immediately ignored. You guys have got to try to save this man from his own "supporters."
joshcryer
(62,536 posts)If Sanders loses it won't be because of his internet "supporters" who aren't actually going anything to get him elected. It's one thing to win internet polls and maybe get someone to retweet something Sanders related.
It's another thing entirely to get people to vote for or caucus for Sanders. IRL canvasing and voter registration. It's fucking cold out too.
Are those internet "supporters" potential real life volunteers? Not really, in 2012 the Green Party got more votes than it did since Nader (oh, yeah, forgot to mention just how upset these petty "liberals" were with regards to Obama). Are they really going to fight? Nope.
So we potentially suffer from the same thing Dean did, in that our social media presence doesn't represent out ground game. That's why I've been out there recently, not too active, but I did sign up. And if we do lose? At least I have a very good shot of sending my delegate to the DNC supporting Sanders. It's not likely to be on me and other Sanders supporters I'm working with.
Number23
(24,544 posts)it the DU echo chamber. But you're right and our points are similar that this place seems to cause people to feed off each other. The cluelessness gets exacerbated here because many folks with a diversity of opinion have left or don't bother trying to penetrate the bubble. Just shake our heads and move on rather than engage because we know it will go nowhere.
That's why I've been out there recently, not too active, but I did sign up. And if we do lose? At least I have a very good shot of sending my delegate to the DNC supporting Sanders.
Do your thing, josh! You have a hard road to hoe. Because even though DU is a bubble, unfortunately alot of people have escaped the DU and other bubbles and have flooded the Internet judging by the creation of the berniesoblack (and others) hash tag and the constant stream of articles condemning their behavior. You and the other clued in Sanders supporters have a tough road to hoe and unfortunately, it looks as though you'll have almost as many challenges from within as you will from without. But it sounds as though your strong support for your candidate will see you through. I wish you and he absolutely nothing but the best.
BainsBane
(57,746 posts)They have succeeded in turning people off their candidate. I don't know how much of an impact it has, but there is definitely some. The pattern on social media is widespread, not just on one or two websites.
Number23
(24,544 posts)Pretty obvious that stuff like this is eating him up. He is a white Sanders supporters absolutely disgusted at the very clear, very obvious baiting and antagonizing of the black community by some Sanders supporters here. And I know he's not the only one. We have so many Sanders supporters that are regulars in the AA forum and they say very similar things.
Blue_Tires said that his strategy here has been to support Sanders but stay the hell away from his supporters. Like you said, I don't know how much impact all of this will eventually have but anyone that doesn't look at this and see how fucked up it is is insane.
BainsBane
(57,746 posts)He was recently targeted from Twitter for not being a true believer. That seems to be the usual response to any criticism.
joshcryer
(62,536 posts)While there are examples, such as John Lewis' FB page where Sanders supporters spammed it saying he wrong, in most cases the pro-Sanders sentiment is positive throughout the internet.
Of course, on liberally inclined forums like DU and Reddit, the pro-Sanders sentiment is increasingly negative, those sites speak to an already liberal audience (not moderates, not the right wing). So their minds are already made up and any bullshit posted there is not going to have an effect.
The idea that Sanders should then police arguments made on irrelevant sites is, to me, wrong. Sanders can't control it any more than I can, because they aren't supporters of Sanders. If they were actual supporters, really truly worked for him like we do on a daily basis, they wouldn't be posting the utter bullshit that they do, because Sanders has already shot down the hatefulness. In a Democratic debate, no less.
I disagree that Sanders should say a damn thing to these people, because if he pisses them off they'll turn on him like a dime, they never supported him, they never cared about his candidacy, he is only a means to an end to hurt Clinton. Period. The minute that Sanders "highlights" the insane, slacktvist "supporters" and tells them to cut off the shit, the very minute they go Green. As they plan to anyway if he very likely loses.
They will not support the nominee he will support if he loses.
But I guarantee you, fucking do, that I'm sending a Sanders delegate to the DNC in that event. That will not be able to be said about 99% of Sanders "supporters," because they're fake, they don't care about Sanders one fucking iota.
joshcryer
(62,536 posts)...for saying that Obama would only be remembered as the "first black President."
GitRDun
(1,846 posts)No bouncing Bernies or recs for you!
You did capture it well. I got crucified on DU after the Seattle event when I said if you step back and listen, the pain in those women's voices was palpable.
I find these OP's...well...offensive. I agree with you that BLM is reflective of MLK's history. Yet this group was vilified by the same SBS supporters who purport to be "next in line" to protect and support MLK's vision / legacy.
The OP's flowery appropriation of an advocate for blacks history finished off with the "weathervane" snark is simply repulsive.
It seems to me if you want to talk about MLK at all, leave the snark at home...they don't belong in the same paragraph.
Bobbie Jo
(14,344 posts)I find these OP's...well...offensive. I agree with you that BLM is reflective of MLK's history. Yet this group was vilified by the same SBS supporters who purport to be "next in line" to protect and support MLK's vision / legacy.
Absolutely right, all of it...
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)Thank you for speaking up so eloquently!
George II
(67,782 posts)okasha
(11,573 posts)Another seance.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)
Snot came out my nose. I have a cold. Came flying right out.
Shower time!!
okasha
(11,573 posts)Hope you're over it soon. My mom's favorite remedy was equal amounts honey, lemon juice and whiskey. One way or another, you'll feel better if you take a large enough dose.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Over two months cold after cold. I really need to lay in bed and rest after finals. I think that is my prob. Moving too much. Taking more classes next time too. I might just have to try your mom's remedy. At least I'll be HAPPY.
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)“Respectfully, if that is your position, then I will talk only to white people about how we are going to deal with the very real problems,”
Juicy_Bellows
(2,427 posts)It certainly wouldn't have been said by the Democratic front runner, would it?
Cheers.
Ya got that right!
DemocratSinceBirth
(101,833 posts)Thank you in advance.
MineralMan
(151,167 posts)Sadly, he was taken from us almost 50 years ago, and the world's a worse place because of that. I think, actually, that he might have been our first black President, had he not been assassinated.
We'll never know, and more's the pity.