What if Bernie were Bernice?

[pnwmom]

And everything was the same except gender.

Would a loud, finger-jabbing, arm-waving Bernice, a Senator from a tiny state, a non-practicing Jew, a 74 year old white female, ever have had Bernie’s success?

Bernice, whose son was born out of wedlock to a man she never married.

Bernice, who divorced her first husband and remarried a man nine years younger.

Bernice, who had been repeatedly arrested for demonstrating.

Bernice, who, at the age of 30, had written an essay that discussed male and female rape fantasies.

Bernice, who for decades proudly called herself a socialist before announcing a run in the Democratic primary.

The answer is NO.
No matter how righteous her anger or her cause.
A furious Bernice with an unconventional past wouldn’t have had a chance.

Women have a decorum they are required to uphold. Bernice Sanders would have been labeled hysterical, and a harpy, and laughed off the national stage.

Until you can imagine a Bernice Sanders being as successful as a Bernie Sanders has been, please don’t tell me that gender is not a factor in this race.

And this argument holds for an African American Bernie, also. An African-American Bernie wouldn’t have a chance of being elected President. Not in 2016.

In the US women and African Americans are still held to a higher standard than white men. Acknowledging this isn’t playing the gender card or the race card. It’s the simple truth.

[99th_Monkey]

1. .

[Cheese Sandwich]

2. Hillary does have a very unconventional past

[Metric System]

3. Food for thought. He definitely benefits from white male privilege.

[Truprogressive85]

52. if that the case Hillary Clinton benefits from white female privilege

[Hiraeth]

121. so true.

and here is the thing: as individuals evolve their actions -individually- is what forwards a movement.

[LWolf]

4. I agree that:

In the US women and African Americans are still held to a higher standard than white men. Acknowledging this isn’t playing the gender card or the race card.

That's true. I freely acknowledge it.

Gender may be a factor for some in this race. To be honest, I was...horrified, appalled, REPULSED by the primaries in '08, when I saw DU and Democrats across the nation fracture along race and gender lines, using both, and trying to rank one above the other as a priority, to determine the nominee.

Because gender issues and race issues are equally important; at least, they are to me.

If I am choosing my vote based on race and gender issues, it's not the race nor the gender of the candidate, but the candidates' records and positions on those issues that are going to determine my vote. I want more than a symbol.

[pnwmom]

6. Thank you. Many here seem to want to pretend that any discussion

of sexism or racism with regard to candidates is irrelevant. But it's not. We're not past that yet.

[LWolf]

124. You are welcome, of course.

And, of course we aren't past sexism. I just, the week before the holidays, had a conversation with my boss about this deeply embedded problem in our work place. He agreed with me. The immediate problem wasn't coming from him, but from parents who wouldn't bring their concerns to me because I'm a woman.

[Live and Learn]

11. +1 nt

[lovemydog]

79. Thanks for your thoughtful post.

I wasn't here in '08. I dislike the fractures now. I too want more than a symbol. I'm not a strong supporter of any of the three democratic candidates, but like them all. I'll support any of them in the general election.

[RandySF]

5. My support for Hillary is not gender based

I would support her over Warren and most other women out there.

[JaneyVee]

7. Don't forget the hair.

The unkept hair is praised by his supporters.

[Cali_Democrat]

8. Bernice seems like an awful person. nt

[pnwmom]

9. Not to me. He seems like an extremely passionate, focused person --

and I think that's why many respond to them.

But they wouldn't respond to the same fury and focus if it came from an old white woman.

[zazen]

10. this Bernie supporter agrees, but I still think HRC/WJC are corrupt corporatists & wrong for U.S.

HRC has done a lot for women's and girls' rights, as much by example--in putting up with misogynist attacks for years and refusing to give in. I respect her immensely for that.

She's absolutely held to a higher standard (as you and I are) and it's grossly unfair. I've fought against this crap my whole life.

Elizabeth Warren, for whom I would have voted, is the kind of woman who seriously challenges economic inequality but still meets those impossibly high standards--of being the "good" woman, the attractive older woman who's warm and slightly self-deprecating at times but forceful, yet clearly just on behalf of others (like a fierce mother). (HRC is attractive but isn't appropriately "apologetic" enough to come off as "feminine," and is wrongly judged on it.) I agree women shouldn't have to meet such ridiculous standards.

You're right. An African-American or female Bernie would have faced much greater hurdles.

But that doesn't mean that Sanders' platform and proposed policies aren't the best, of all available options, out there at this time. I truly believe they are--that Medicare for all, challenging Wall Street, universal jobs programs, universal public education, a higher minimum wage--will do far more to advance the cause of women and minorities than Hillary's corporatist governance. I say that as a lifelong feminist.

I wish it were otherwise and I'll call out sexist attacks on Clinton every time I see them, but just because she's a target for misogyny, like Sarah Palin or Ann Coulter or Margaret Thatcher or Angela Merkel, doesn't mean she's right.

[pnwmom]

15. Thank you for a reasoned, non-defensive post. Yes, it is very possible

to support Bernie and not be a sexist. Unfortunately, with too many here, there seems to be a (usually unconscious) degree of misogyny involved.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

12. Voting for someone because of gender is the same as voting against someone because of gender.

The same goes for ethnicity or age or shoe size.

[pnwmom]

16. I would say that isn't always true. Not when you think both candidates have

pluses and minuses, and the race or gender of a candidate is underrepresented.

And no one can say women have ever had a fair shot at the Presidency. They still don't. Not till a Bernice Sanders could do as well as a Bernie.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

19. Is it "true" this time?

Is this election about a woman becoming president? Or, about the best candidate becoming president?

I think that Hillary isn't fit to hold public office and won't vote for her.

I don't always agree with Bernie but will vote for him. Not because he's a man but because I think he's far more able and ethical than Hillary.

[pnwmom]

22. I will vote for whoever is the Democratic nominee.

And I have several months to decide on my caucus vote, but at this point I'm learning toward HRC. Her performance in the 11 hours of grilling at the Benghazi hearing impressed me.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

23. I was impressed by her IWR vote, advocacy of torture, and calls for more war.

If Bernie fails to get the nomination and Hillary does, I will vote for another woman for president.

I don't vote for labels.

[zazen]

13. oh, and k&r, because I hate this culture's double standard against "old women" n/t

[aidbo]

14. Yes, Bernie has benefitted from privilege, that doesn't make his ideas any less correct.

I think he would mostly agree with you too regarding the privilege (though he may quibble with your characterization of the essay).

Sadly, because of the state of our national conversation on racial and gender privilege, if he were to point it out now I think he'd lose all chance of the nomination. Too many voters are not ready to face up to that. I do think that we are beginning to see cracks in the dyke regarding this discussion, but I benefit from the same privilege, so maybe I'm the wrong person to point it out.

[pnwmom]

20. I don't think the election is ever based solely on ideas.

I think there was a value, for example, to electing the first African American President, that went beyond his ideas (which were very similar to those of the other two Dems running against him.)

And I think there would be a value to electing the first woman President. It shouldn't be the ONLY reason to elect a President, but the "symbolic value" shouldn't be completely discounted, as many here want to do. It should be ONE of the factors considered. A real one.

[Doctor_J]

17. What if Hillary were Henry?

A white male With pro-war politics, laughing at murders of foreign leaders, history of domestic discord, millions in speaking income from criminals, constant lying and flip flopping, against same sex marriage, in favor of TPP, against universal healthcare, and promising to help republicans enact their agenda?

Such a person wouldn't stand a chance in the democratic primary.

So why can't we come back to reality, though it's far from where hillarians reside on a daily basis?

[pnwmom]

21. I think a man who had been Secretary of State for Obama and Senator from NY,

with her Senate record, would have had an excellent chance.

Joe Biden also voted for the Iraq war. So did John Kerry. Her record in the Senator was more liberal than either of theirs.

[Doctor_J]

24. that's the problem with living in a dream world as you seem to be doing

You are able to just disregard that nearly all of Hillary's support comes because of her gender. She is the poster child for identity politics over substance.

[pnwmom]

26. You're the one living in a dream world. Men with her qualifications

have always had a good shot at the Presidency. But women haven't even had the vote for 100 years.

[artislife]

34. Yup nt

[karynnj]

97. john kerry was far more liberal than HRC.

Biden was slightly to her right.

[pnwmom]

99. No,he wasn't. Not based on his Senate record.

And she opposed the Vietnam war, as he did -- upon his return.

ontheissues.org

[Aerows]

102. It seems you are delighted by a turn to the right

Want to rephrase that?

[karynnj]

107. if you compare any year each were in the Senate, he

Was more liberal. He had the best lifetime record of any Senator on the environment. I know HRC got the endorsement of LCV as Kerry did, but his record on all issues related to the environment was better.

He voted against DOMA and volunteered to testify before Strom Thurmond ' s committee to push to allow gas to serve in the military in the 1990s when that was controversial. He had a 100 percent record with HRC, a group that measures hay rights support.

His support on women 's issues was 100 percent, I believe he voted against a few amendments that would have limited abortion rights that Clinton supported. Kerry and Olympia Snowe passed many Small Business bills which empowered women.

Kerry voted against every bad bankruptcy bill, while Clinton voted for the 2001 version. Kerry investigated BCCI and was instrumental in getting it closed. He also was on the banking committee and worked to correct the S&L problems with others like Senator Heinz.

Kerry and Kennedy jointly wrote the precursor bill To SCHIP which was modified to get Republican support by Kennedy and Hatch.

Clinton is more hawkish than Kerry, where his IWR vote was an aeration - hers wasn't. Note Kerry voted for Kerry/Finegold while she voted against it and was angry that he wrote the legislation. The Clintons supported Gulf War one, which Kerry voted against. Not to mention, Kerry investigated the Contras being illegally armed, while the Clintons, like many Democrats were for supporting the Contras.

More recently, she was for Kyl/Lieberman which Kerry led the fight against and, while Kerry pushed Obama to work on the Iran deal, she was skeptical.

[pnwmom]

108. If you look at each of their entire records while they were in the Senate,

as ontheissues.org did, they are almost the same. They're both categorized as "left liberal" and "hard core liberal." And more liberal than Joe Biden.

[karynnj]

110. their careers do not cover the same time frame

I pointed out, if you compare the years they were in the Senate together, it is easy to point to important votes - as diverse as the bankruptcy bill and Kyl/Lieberman where Kerry is to the left of Clinton. It is very hard to do the reverse.

I said Biden was to her right. You lumped Kerry with Biden to her right. Now, you BACK TRACK saying Kerry and Clinton are both labeled as hard core liberal. Note that does not prove Kerry is not to her left. Their categories are too broad to do so.

The Clintons were both proudly centrists for years. I do not get why supporters here want to see her as almost as much to the left as Bernie.

I also resent the implication that Clinton was more anti Vietnam War than Kerry. He was FAR more significant to the anti war cause and did so at the risk of any future political career. He also used his credibility as someone who served to defend Bill Clinton from attacks on his patriotism in 1992.

[bvar22]

129. Are you forgetting Biden's unwaivering support for the usurious Credit Card Companies?

Don't you think 30% is too high?
Joe Biden doesn't.

AH, well. The Credit Card Industry is the incestuous 1st Cousin to Wall Street anyway.

[djean111]

18. None of that, for me, is even a whisp of a reason for me to support Hillary rather than Bernie.

It is the issues.

If the Hillary campaign strategists thought that gender would not be an issue at all, or that gender would be any sort of a sad reason to ignore the actual issues, they are/were sadly mistaken.

[ibegurpard]

25. Then she'd be even better

Because I really would love to see a female president in my lifetime.

[pnwmom]

28. Can you think of any "angry," "gruff" women in Congress?

A woman who acted like Bernie would never succeed as he has.

[SMC22307]

61. Virginia Foxx and Mean Jean Schmidt on the Rethuglican side.

I'm sure there are more, and perhaps other DUers will weigh in.

And Barbara Mikulski on the Democratic side can be a bit gruff, God love her. She reminds me of Bernie -- quick-witted, and they don't suffer fools.

[bvar22]

27. No problem for me.

If your hypothetical woman had the same 40 year record as Bernie, and the same reputation as a fighter for the Middle Class, Working Class, and The Poor,
I would have ZERO problems supporting this candidate.

Can you find one in the REAL World...besides Elizabeth?

[pnwmom]

29. Elizabeth Warren has spoken out repeatedly about the sexism

that she has experienced, including in the Senate.

And she could have run, but didn't have the heart for it. Instead, she signed a letter urging Hillary to run.

So Elizabeth's not much of an example.

[Doctor_J]

30. The op lives in a fantasy world. "If Bernie was a female, ..."

This is an excuse to support a corporate conservative woman instead of an actual democrat who happens to be a white male.

[pnwmom]

31. You're living in a fantasy world, if you think Bernice Sanders would have succeeded

as Bernie Sanders has.

His behavior and background would never have allowed a woman to get this far.

[cherokeeprogressive]

132. Since there IS no "Bernice Sanders", this whole THREAD is based upon a fantasy.

[pnwmom]

135. Yes. The fantasy should make it obvious that no woman would have

been able to succeed as he has behaving as he has.

Including Hillary. Gender bias is real.

[artislife]

35. The thing is would Hillary even be where she is at

if she hadn't been a First Lady?



Gender has helped her way more than not.

[bvar22]

43. BLAMO!

*

[pnwmom]

51. I think she would have. She was the first elected commencement speaker

at her college, Wellesley, where she majored in Political Science, and among the first class of 27 women admitted to Yale Law school. She immediately went on to do social justice work for the Children's defense fund. I think if Bill hadn't changed her course to being a helpmate and family bread winner in Arkansas, she could have made a great career of her own -- in Illinois or New York.

[artislife]

68. I don't buy it. nt

[cherokeeprogressive]

133. Or in the Marines, right? Since Bill "changed" her course. Didn't she want to be a Marine?

[beam me up scottie]

70. Exactly. What if Hillary Clinton were Hillary Rodham?

She would never have been a New York senator or SOS.

That street goes both ways.

[earthside]

80. In the 'if' game ... this wins hands down.

Hillary Rodham was married to Bill Clinton.

That is it.

If she hadn't been his spouse, she never would have been First Lady of Arkansas ... and the rest is "marriage privilege".

Something must be worrying the Hillarians -- the posts have been getting crazier and crazier lately.

[BlueMTexpat]

113. One of Bill Clinton's best assets

has always been Hillary.

When he ran for President, I recall reading that many who knew both noted at the time that Hillary had excellent credentials and was considered to be the more liberal of the two. Can't seem to find a cite for that now, but she was definitely considered a plus.

He may not even have made it to the GE without her. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries,_1992

[artislife]

126. But he is always been the more likable one

He won a lot of voters over on charm.


Hand raised.


Of course, I matured and won't fall for that again.

[BlueMTexpat]

130. Most of those who have actually

met Hillary in person have found her to be a warm, lovely, charming, and highly intelligent woman.

I am among them.

But I do not vote on likability alone. I sincerely believe that she is the best candidate of the three. Is she perfect? No. But she will have my vote for the primaries.

[Empowerer]

128. That's bull. If Hillary had been born a man, she would have had many more options

and could have focused on a career as a Senator or Congressman or Governor at a time when such options were rarely available for women. Had she had those other options, she would have had many more opportunities to build a political career.

As it was, she made the most of the limited scope her gender allowed her to work within. The fact that no other First Lady in history, with the possible exception of Eleanor Roosevelt (and that's a real stretch given the times in which she lived), could have even come close to building an independent political career as a result of her position as a President's spouse is alone evidence that being First Lady does not offer women some sort of preferential political advantage based on their gender.

If we've learned nothing else in this world, it should at least be very apparent that the deck is still stacked against women and minorities. One has to be a Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton - extraordinary, wunderkind, over-achievers - in order to just be allowed in the room that's crowded with the likes of John Kasich, Scott Walker, Jeb Bush, Mike Huckabee and other mediocre white men who not only feel fully entitled to be President of the United States, but whose right to be there is rarely questioned by others. And they STILL have to deal with people like you who claim they got there through some special privilege that the white men couldn't access.

[Lilith Rising]

134. Exactly this -

thank you!

[Nonhlanhla]

32. I'm trying to imagine the hairstyle...

The hairstyle of Bernice would probably evoke a lot of late-night jokes.

OK, I'm kidding. Bernice sounds like a fun person. But she's unlikely to have a shot at the presidency.

Fact is, white guys can get away with things men of color or women can't. I remember when I was in graduate school, my adviser (very much a Bernie Sanders type) would look a bit scruffy. His good AA friend and co-teacher in many of the same classes was always impeccably dressed in suit and tie. As he said to me once, he can get away with being scruffy. A black man can't.

Same goes for gender.

[pnwmom]

33. Trump has already been mocking Hillary's hair. A woman's appearance will always be mocked.

And I agree that Bernice would have been an inspiring person. I'd love an Aunt Bernice. But I don't think she'd be Senator, much less President.

[artislife]

36. As I said above, I don't think if she hadn't been First Lady

then she wouldn't have been a senator from NY, much less SOS and now a candidate.

[pnwmom]

38. She was chosen by a vote of her fellow students to be the commencement speaker

at Wellesley, where she majored in political science. She was accepted into Yale the first year they ever admitted women ( one of 27 women in a class of 235) and went on to work for the Children's Defense fund.

I think she could have made a great career in politics without Bill Clinton. He might have even held her back -- but she certainly aided him.

We'll never know.

http://www2.yale.edu/timeline/1969/index.html

[artislife]

69. A commencement speaker...wow!

Not really that impressive, to me. Where are those other 27 women?

You like her, I get that.

But I don't think she would have been anywhere near the place she is now on her own.

[pnwmom]

71. I don't know what those other 26 women are doing, but I do know

they were the FIRST ever class at that law school and they faced huge obstacles both before and after.

And Hillary was the first ever student to be chosen to speak at a Wellesley graduation, in addition to being senior class president.

Women Hillary's age have paved the way for this generation of young women. It's sad that so many young women take that for granted.

[BlueMTexpat]

114. + a million or so ...

Women Hillary's age have paved the way for this generation of young women. It's sad that so many young women take that for granted.

Too many women today either have very selective memories of how things were for women ... or are too young to have experienced those things.

But it is not because Hillary is a woman that I support her. I sincerely believe that she is the best of our three candidates, all things considered. That she happens also to be a woman is a distinct plus for me.

Of course, as we see with the PP falsifications, repeated attempts to overturn Roe v. Wade, and how women are still viewed in the US generally - even by some posters at DU shamefully - there is still a very long way to go.

[pnwmom]

117. I agree. I wouldn't support a candidate just for being a woman. However, there are millions

of women for whom Hillary's gender does push them over the tipping point. And I welcome their votes, too.

I haven't firmly chosen any candidate, but I refuse to have Sanders pushed on me by the weight of the crowd here.The more i defend her from unfair attacks, the more I have leaned toward her.

I would happily support any of the three in the end. But I think Hillary's qualifications are excellent and that so much of the antipathy here is related to unconscious gender expectations. And when young women don't even see that in play -- it's discouraging.

[merrily]

37. Seems like a new low every day.

[sadoldgirl]

39. Let us assume that EW had run and would

be HRC's competition. I would have voted for EW.

I had hoped that she would, but she decided
otherwise. It is about the issues for me.

When Bernice is called an old woman, may I remind
you that HRC is no spring chicken.

[dsc]

42. Elizabeth Warren is way different than the Bernice of the OP

and if she weren't she wouldn't be Senator for Massachusetts.

[pnwmom]

44. Elizabeth has spoken about how careful she has to be as a WOMAN

how women in the Senate are supposed to smile and be nice.

Her behavior is nothing like Bernice's, even if she probably feels that fury.

[dsc]

40. You had some really good replies and some real clunkers too

The fact is just the unkempt style of Bernie would be a deal breaker for a Bernice forget about the other stuff. One only has to look at the 20 women in the Senate and compare them to Senators Brown and Sanders and see the double standard. It is good to see at least some supporters of Bernie see the double standard.

[pnwmom]

45. That and the baby born out of wedlock. When have we ever seen any national

female politician with that on her record?

[dsc]

46. fact is I didn't even know that about Sanders

and yeah, that would be a deal breaker for a female.

[pnwmom]

48. Some complain about the lack of media coverage, but that cuts both ways.

If he wins the nomination and the media gets around to looking at him under a magnifying glass, as they have done with Hillary for decades, we'll be hearing a lot more about that.

[BlueMTexpat]

115. The three children from Bernie's second

marriage are his stepchildren - not that it should be considered a minus, IMO. If anything, he considers and treats them as his own.

His only birth child appears to be his out-of-wedlock son, Levi. http://heavy.com/news/2015/10/bernie-sanders-family-wife-jane-ex-deborah-shilling-children-levi-democratic-debate-2016-presidential/

[Bluenorthwest]

41. Bernie often reminds me of Bella Abzug

[dsc]

50. a couple of things

she was in all her appearances in that video meticulously dressed and made up and when you could see her hair, it was well kept. 2nd she lost her Senate races to Moynahan. She is missed though.

[Bluenorthwest]

60. Not everyone felt the hats were meticulous but that was not my point. He reminds me of her.

It's the NY direct, the hands and the lack of bullshit. Bella introduced the Equality Act in 1974, along with Ed Koch. I heard her speak once.

There are most certainly and without any doubt vast double standards for women, not to mention LGBT and African Americans in our politics. Not to mention business and everything else.

[AgingAmerican]

47. What if Hillary was Hilmer?

Would she be less appealing?

[pnwmom]

49. With her progressive record in the Senate, representing a large state,

and experience as a Secretary of State, and her large campaign organization, she'd be just as appealing if she were a man. Her vote on Iraq would not be a deal breaker for most, just as Kerry's and Biden's weren't deal breakers for them.

[Bread and Circus]

66. Was for me. I really didn't want Kerry or Biden. But Kerry became the establishment's dog and got...

nominated... much to my chagrin.

I was for Obama over Biden by a mile.

There's more consistency on our side than you give credit for.

[pnwmom]

72. The question isn't who you or I personally would have voted for.

The issue is whether she would have been a viable candidate as a male, with her background. And she obviously would have been.

[Bread and Circus]

73. Don't worry Hillary Clinton will get away with it too...and will likely get until into more military

foolish misadventure.

It's called maintaining the status quo.

Her being a woman will have absolutely NO effect on improving fundamental issues in this nation.

[Autumn]

53. What if Bernice won the election and her husband had an affair with an intern in the White House.

Who would get all up in Bernice's private life? Republicans or democrats? That's if we are going to be discussing her private life and her baby born out of wedlock and stuff like that.

[rogerashton]

54. Let me see if I understand your reasoning here.

1) It is wrong that these characteristics would disqualify a woman. A female candidate ought to be evaluated on other traits, such as her positions on issues and her apparent commitment to them, not on irrelevancies of appearance, voice and personal history.

2) Therefore, Bernie, being a white male, should be disqualified for those reasons.

Have I understood you correctly?

[pnwmom]

57. No. But I think people should realize what Hillary has been up against.

Gender discrimination is still real, and it affects progressives, too. We're not immune.

[Live and Learn]

55. I'd be very happy to be supporting the right woman for President. nt

[Kalidurga]

56. Do you really think so little of Progressive Democrats?

For the record I would vote for Bernice. I think a lot of liberals would love Bernice. Perhaps the more conservative Democrats would have a problem with this.

OTOH, what if Jane Sanders had was the political one in the family. I think that she would have also been a good candidate.

[pnwmom]

58. Jane Sanders lost her job at Burlington College due to

how she'd managed the finances there.

Why do you think, with her record, she'd have been a good candidate?

[Kalidurga]

62. I think if she had been politically inclined

that job wouldn't have ever been in her resume, she would have already had a job in politics.

[pnwmom]

65. People often move from University jobs to politics, so that

could have been her path, too. Except for how she handled it:

http://vtdigger.org/2015/09/13/jane-sanders-overstated-donation-amounts-in-loan-application-for-burlington-college/

Former Burlington College president Jane Sanders overstated donation amounts in a bank application for a $6.7 million loan that was used by the college to purchase a prime 33-acre property on Lake Champlain in 2010.

Sanders told People’s United Bank that the college had $2.6 million in pledged donations to support the purchase of the former Roman Catholic Diocese of Burlington property on North Avenue. The college, however, received only $676,000 in actual donations from 2010 through 2014, according to figures provided by Burlington College.

That’s far less than the $5 million Sanders listed as likely pledges in the loan agreement, and less than a third of the $2.14 million Sanders had promised People’s Bank the college would collect in cash during the four-year period.

Two people whose pledges are listed as confirmed in the loan agreement told VTDigger that their personal financial records show their pledges were overstated. Neither were aware that the pledges were used to secure the loan.

SNIP

[Luminous Animal]

75. Nope. Try again.

[pnwmom]

76. Try what again? I'm responding to someone who said Jane would have been

a good candidate herself.

Given what happened at Burlington College, I don't think she'd have had much of a career after her forced resignation.



http://vtdigger.org/2015/09/13/jane-sanders-overstated-donation-amounts-in-loan-application-for-burlington-college/

Former Burlington College president Jane Sanders overstated donation amounts in a bank application for a $6.7 million loan that was used by the college to purchase a prime 33-acre property on Lake Champlain in 2010.

Sanders told People’s United Bank that the college had $2.6 million in pledged donations to support the purchase of the former Roman Catholic Diocese of Burlington property on North Avenue. The college, however, received only $676,000 in actual donations from 2010 through 2014, according to figures provided by Burlington College.

That’s far less than the $5 million Sanders listed as likely pledges in the loan agreement, and less than a third of the $2.14 million Sanders had promised People’s Bank the college would collect in cash during the four-year period.

Two people whose pledges are listed as confirmed in the loan agreement told VTDigger that their personal financial records show their pledges were overstated. Neither were aware that the pledges were used to secure the loan.

SNIP

[Bread and Circus]

59. A better question is what if Bernie were Elizabeth Warren...a lot of us would enthusiastically...

vote for her.

Even so if if Bernie were Bernice, and was saying the same things and standing for the same things, I would vote for her.

And if Hillary was Hebert and was still peddling corporate bromides and advocating for more foolish foreign interventions, I would still not vote for him.

Outright unfairly accusing people of being sexist is not acceptable and the more it is exploited as a word the less meaning and impact it has.

[Eric J in MN]

63. Bingo. The Senator with the positions closest to

...Bernie Sanders is Elizabeth Warren.

They're both outspoken advocates of reforming the banking industry.

I'd gladly vote for a Sanders-Warren ticket or a Warren-Sanders ticket.

[Bread and Circus]

64. I would rather have a Warren-Sanders ticket. I would like to see a woman be President. It would be..

awesome.

I would also like to see a Warren-O'Malley ticket too. I'd be happy with that.

I am very upset she did not run and I think Hillary is the reason.

[mcar]

67. Food for thought

Thank you for this interesting construct.

[pnwmom]

85. You're welcome. Thanks for thinking about it. n/t

[Luminous Animal]

74. Like how you threw non-praciticing Jew in there. I'll be keeping a look out any other "jew" comments

you have in the future.

[beam me up scottie]

77. I noticed that too and she already lumped him in with Netanyahu once before.

Because you know, they're so much alike *wink wink*.

[Luminous Animal]

78. Nice to know.

[pnwmom]

84. Why is it that calling someone a "Jew" is different from calling them a "Catholic"

or a "Muslim" or a "Protestant" or a "Buddhist"?

I usually say "Jewish person" but I used the shorthand form this time, because I've never really understood the objection.

[beam me up scottie]

88. When have you ever cited Hillary's or O'Malley's religion when discussing them?

Why do need to constantly throw in the fact that Bernie is Jewish?

[Luminous Animal]

90. When is the last time you referred to Hillary as a practicing Christian?

[pnwmom]

91. I've frequently referred to her as being a strong or devout Methodist.

With weeks if not days.

And I refer to various of my family members as practicing Catholics or non-practicing. (The non-practicing were raised Catholic but no longer feel a part of the Church.) From what I've read, that is Bernie's situation. He was raised by observant Jewish parents but no longer practices the religion.

Have you heard otherwise?

[Luminous Animal]

93. links?

[beam me up scottie]

94. I've never seen her refer to Hillary's faith when religion wasn't being discussed.

She's trying to cover her tracks now.

[pnwmom]

95. Links for what? My own posts? I just wrote one recently, where I talked

about seeing her speaking at a Church in South Carolina after the shootings, and how as a Methodist, she was comfortable using religious language -- to the point that she reminded me of nuns in school.

But I think you misunderstand my perspective. I think that if Bernie were a devout Jew, then he would appeal to more people -- especially minority voters, who are among the Democratic voters most likely to be religious -- than with being an atheist or agnostic. Being a non-practicing anything is a negative to the average American voter. Studies have shown voters are more likely to vote for a Muslim, for example, than for an atheist.

[Luminous Animal]

111. How do you jump from non-practicing Jew to atheist?

[pnwmom]

112. Because I've seen him described variously as an agnostic or an atheist.

For example, in this interview, he avoided answering when asked if he believed in God.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/10/24/bernie-sanders-our-first-agnostic-president/


Much of the attention paid to Bernie Sanders's presidential campaign has to do with the s-word: Can a socialist be elected president? How much of a socialist is he? What exactly is socialism?

What many haven't picked up on is that a Sanders presidency would be a first in a couple other ways. First, Sanders would be our first Jewish president. And second, while Sanders is culturally Jewish, he has said that he's "not particularly religious" and has been described by some as agnostic.

Asked during an appearance on Jimmy Kimmel's show this week whether he believed in God, Sanders demurred.

"I am who I am," Sanders said. "And what I believe in and what my spirituality is about, is that we're all in this together. That I think it is not a good thing to believe that as human beings we can turn our backs on the suffering of other people."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/30/bernie-sanders-faith_n_7174514.html

5 Faith Facts About Unabashedly Irreligious Bernie Sanders

Sanders is the presidential contender most willing to dissociate himself from religion. Though he identifies as Jewish and by Jewish law is Jewish, he has freely acknowledged that he is not a religious person. He scored a solid zero from Ralph Reed’s Faith and Freedom Coalition in its most recent scorecard and a 100 from the abortion rights group NARAL Pro-Choice America.

http://americablog.com/2015/10/bernie-sanders-just-came-reeeeeeally-close-to-coming-out-as-an-non-believer.html

Bernie Sanders just came reeeeeeally close to coming out as an non-believer

Bernie Sanders is Jewish the same way I’m Jewish: emphasis on the ish. As the New Yorker reported in their October 12 issue, Sanders values his Jewish heritage, “less for the religious content than for the sense it imbued in him that politics mattered.” So while he still identifies as Jewish when asked, and his Jewish heritage has in many ways informed his political identity, he isn’t all that observant. And in an appearance on Jimmy Kimmel Wednesday night, Sanders gave his clearest indication yet that, if elected, he would be both our first Jewish and first non-believing president (and no, those identities are not mutually exclusive):

SNIP

To be clear, Sanders really could have just been pivoting back to his core economic message. Then again, when a cultural Jew replaces “faith” or “God” with “my spirituality,” that’s a pretty clear indication that, pace President Obama, God is not in the mix.

[bravenak]

104. I have also discussed her faith. And I have no religion.

[msanthrope]

116. OMG....Max...is that you?????

[Thinkingabout]

81. Great post, said lots, this still happens today. Like the remarks "you are only

Voting for Hillary because she is a woman". I have lived and worked through the times I was told "you only got the job because you are a woman", my reply "you only got the job twenty years ago because you was a man".

[pnwmom]

87. Yes. Women couldn't even vote 100 years ago, and all 43 Presidents have been men.

In all that time, no woman was ever as qualified as the men who were elected. Not even for Vice President.

Right.

[Ken Burch]

82. I'd still stand with Bernice.

A lot of people would.

Nobody but Republicans are against HRC because of her gender. Bernie's supporters aren't.

I agree that all double standards are wrong...but the double standard for women or PoC is a right-wing thing.

[ram2008]

83. It would be the same

I think Bernice would be very successful in today's climate. It's not about his identity, it's about policies, consistency, and authenticity.

If it were not Bernie, Warren would be in the race and probably polling higher than Bernie right now.

[pnwmom]

86. Part of the reason Warren is not in the race is because of the difficulty

women face in politics. She's already spoken about the sexism and misogyny she's encountered in the Senate.

[ram2008]

89. Umm, a woman is the frontrunner though

Warren is not in the race because the party had already corralled around Hillary and passed her the crown. Had Warren entered the race I have no doubt she would be where Bernie is, or probably higher up. There's different dynamics at play with each candidate as well which forms their overall story. If Hillary's name was Howard would he be the frontrunner?

Misogyny and sexism is a problem, but this is the Democratic party, not the Republican one so its increasingly rare.

[pnwmom]

92. Right now she is but there are no guarantees, as you know.

Until a woman has actually been elected President I won't believe we've cracked that ceiling.

[davidn3600]

118. No. She's not in the race because the DNC had already crowned Hillary

If Warren was running, no way in hell Hillary would win this nomination. No way in hell.

There is this constant vibe in the party that it's Hillary's turn and that she's paid her dues and is now entitled to a chance. Everything this party is doing seems entirely calculated to give Hillary the nomination.

[pnwmom]

119. Warren signed a letter urging HRC to run. She's never shown a bit of personal interest

in the effort of running, and had to be persuaded to run for Senator.

[melman]

96. lolwut

[Douglas Carpenter]

98. What if Hillary was a social-democrat supporting the same positions as Bernie - would make that make

a difference? Of course it would. But she is not a social-democrat and many of her positions are well to the right of Bernie's. So, I will support the viable candidate who comes the closest to my way of thinking and vote for the only viable social-democrat in the Presidential race in a long, long time.

I think most of the progressive wing of the Democratic Party would be all the happier and enthusiastic in their support if we had a women and person of color who was also a social-democrat with positions closer to Bernie's. But, we unfortunately don't have that option.

[Aerows]

100. I nearly got my IQ lowered when I read this post.

I'm thankful that I could dash out of the thread fast enough.

[Cleita]

101. Me too.

[joshcryer]

103. It's not wrong.

But I'll refrain from a rec because it's click baity. Similar argument could've been made without mentioning Sanders.

[Hiraeth]

125. Click Baity = awesome DU username ... I -like- it !!

[phleshdef]

105. Hillary gets plenty of support The stuff with Bill's escapades really haven't harmed her politically

And of course thats the way it should be. I don't care about their sex lives or marital issues or lack thereof or whatever people wanna think about it. Thats irrelevant. I'll vote her in the general if she is the nominee.

But I probably would still be "feelin' the Bern"-ice if she achieved the same level of iconic modern progressive as her male dopple ganger Bernie has.

Gender is definitely not a factor for me.

[pnwmom]

106. I believe that gender is not a factor for you personally.

But do you think in this society gender is not a factor? That a Bernice Sanders, with Bernie's background and temperament, would have achieved the success he has?

Elizabeth Warren wouldn't. She's talked about the sexism and misogyny she's dealt with in the Senate.

[phleshdef]

109. Perhaps cultural issues with gender might hinder "Bernice". Though it depends on how good...

...Bernice is at dealing with that kind of adversity.

And of course I'd never deny that gender is a factor in politics... but it HAS gotten better.

But a strong candidate is a strong candidate. There are plenty of men who have gotten into politics and failed to even scrape the bottom of Hillary Clinton's shoes, in terms of how much success she has had thus far. Hillary Clinton is a very strong candidate all on her own, good points and bad points. And none of us can deny, there is a a perception of the Clintons being a little big shady. Yet despite all that, she will probably be the next President. I'm voting for Bernie, but my instincts haven't changed about what I believe the final outcome will be. So where gender MIGHT be a factor, Hillary Clinton is a woman with some checkered areas in her past, but she will probably still make it to the oval office. That has to be considered when talking about "Bernice" in that other universe next to ours.

[pnwmom]

123. She is a former Senator of a large state AND a former Secretary of State.

Her background is sufficient without her gender to have well qualified her for the job.

[Bluenorthwest]

120. I promise you this, if Bernie OR Bernice was gay or trans they would not be considered for any

Party's nomination, not one single LGBT person has even been considered. Much less nominated. If Bernie OR Bernice was not just gay but also Jewish, they would not stand a chance in this religiously bigoted nation of hypocrites and extremists.
Not that the OP cares about that stuff, obviously not.

[Empowerer]

127. Excellent "shoe on the other foot" analysis

Sometimes this is the only way for people to see through their own biases.

Nicely done.

[cherokeeprogressive]

131. So it IS all about gender then. If your fantasy candidate were the BEST candidate, I'd vote for her.

As it stands, I'm voting for Bernie.