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[MaggieD]

This message was self-deleted by its author (MaggieD) on Sat Dec 19, 2015, 11:13 AM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[Autumn]

1. I feel the same way about Hillary supporters

What a coinkydink this is.

[MaggieD]

5. Ok, thanks for the kick!

[Autumn]

6. You're so welcome Maggie. Kicks help a lot.

[MaggieD]

12. I know, right?

You are too kind!

[Autumn]

17. You betcha

[leveymg]

123. Who cares about the theatrics of her supporters? Hillary is the problem. Leading Dem. Neocon:

IWR vote. Libya and Syria regime change. Threats to "annihilate" Iran. BFF with Saudi Arabia. How much warning do you need, unless of course, you think wars and making room for ISIS are a good thing?

[BlueCaliDem]

210. Everyone should care about Sanders supporters theatrics. And yes, he's a problem. 2nd leading Dem:

firmly established Neocon.

Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 (precursor for the AUMF Against Iraq).

Voted for the 2006 Iran Freedom Support Act for regime change in Iran.

Voted in support of the 1999 Kosovo War.

Voted AGAINST the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq (AUMF Against Iraq - you call it the IWR) but SUPPORTED the March 21, 2003, resolution on Iraq, stating, "Congress expresses the unequivocal support and appreciation of the nation to the President as Commander-in-Chief for his firm leadership and decisive action in the conduct of military operations in Iraq as part of the ongoing Global War on Terrorism.".

Opposed immediate withdrawal from Iraq.

Voted against closing Gitmo in 2009.

2006: Helped to scuttle the wave for impeachment of G.W. Bush, calling it "impractical".

Voted for House Resolution 921, which gave full support to Israel's war on Lebanon.

Voted for HR 4681 that imposed sanctions on the Palestinian Authority with the aim of removing the democratically elected Hamas government.
[center]~~~~[/center]

[center]On the MiC - the neocon's pet:[/center]

Sanders voted and lobbied for Lockheed Martin's F-35, the epitome of wasteful Pentagon spending to the tune of $1 trillion of taxpayer dollars to date - and growing.
[center]~~~~[/center]

[center]Sanders on gun control:[/center]

Voted against the Brady Bill - five times (he believed it was Federal overreach - what is what Republicans say).

Voted to allow guns on checked baggage on AmTrak.

Voted for the egregious 2005 Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act (PLCAA) that protects gun manufacturers, distributors, dealers, and importers.
"The PLCAA was the No.1 legislative priority of the NRA for years, because it shields gun makers and dealers from most liability when their firearms are used criminally. It is one of the most noxious, neocon pieces of pro-gun legislation ever passed." ~ Mark Joseph Stern, writer at Slate.

The PLCAA alone should cancel out all gun safety bills he's voted for during and after, and leave no one with any doubt that Sanders is more neocon than Hillary Clinton.
[center]~~~~[/center]

Last Thursday, he didn't stand up for ObamaCare or Planned Parenthood when Republicans sneaked repealing the ACA and the defunding Planned Parenthood into a budget reconciliation bill. Instead, he rushed out of DC to catch a plane to NH to campaign.

There is MUCH MORE I can provide to you to substantiate that he, not Hillary Clinton, is the true "neocon" between them. So be careful about hurling that epithet at Hillary Clinton. Sanders' glass house has wafer-thin walls.

[AtomicKitten]

283. "Signed, David Brock of CorruptTheRecord."

[BlueCaliDem]

285. First off, it's BlueCaliDem, not David Brock. The info in my post is my own compilation

from various liberal to left sources, and I've provided some links to back a few up, but can provide links to back each and every point I've made - all from liberal to left sites.

Second, no record is being corrupted - unless you're saying Sanders' record is...less than pristine for a self-avowed Socialist. But everything I've listed is based on the facts - documented facts.

If people are going to hurl the neocon stone at Hillary Clinton's house, and they're supporters of Bernie Sanders, they best be prepared to have those wafer-thin glass walls around them tested in return.

[AtomicKitten]

286. "Even neocons call Clinton a neocon."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/128080578

That's some diabolical shit you're trying. Keep working on sticking the landing. The hypocrisy makes it particularly hilarious.

With the sting of defeat still fresh, it's apparently balls-out for Mrs. Clinton this go. Anything goes. By any means necessary.

[BlueCaliDem]

291. Does nothing to take away from the proven fact that Sanders is a bona fide neocon, does it?

I've proven that much with each and every point, and you can't - thus failed to - disprove any of them. So what do you do instead? You resort to "theatrics" using patronizing snark.

And about that "diabolical shit"? Your "Signed, David Brock of CorrupttheRecord" qualifies. The hypocritical part? Well, you're still trying to hurl stones while standing in Sanders' glass house.

[AtomicKitten]

295. I suggest you make your theory an OP & run it up the flagpole.

I'm off to work now and your assertion is much too precious to leave buried in a subthread. Do share this gem with all of DU and give it the proper attention it deserves.

[BlueCaliDem]

296. Thanks for your suggestion!

[Agschmid]

44. You shouldn't feel the same way about everyone.

This OP is crap but saying the same thing about Hillary supporters is just the same.

Supporters should have no effect on who we support, or are willing to support past the primary.

[Autumn]

67. Most of us are smart enough to realize that.

And yet the broken record spins and spins.

[Agschmid]

68. Yes.

[840high]

204. Broken record - yes!!!

[thucythucy]

245. I think there are SOME instances where supporters might

influence my vote. KKK, white power supporters, etc. for a candidate I might know nothing about.

But I've seen nothing like that from either camp. To not vote for Senator Sanders or Senator Clinton in the general--in other words to give a pass to whichever space cadet the GOP nominates--sends a far far worse signal that voting for either Bernie or Hillary.

I'm bothered by the tone on DU as well. But I would NEVER, EVER contemplate not voting for the Democrat in the general, not as long I have breath in my lungs and any kind of function in my brain. The consequences of a GOP win are just too awful to contemplate.

That said, I hope Senator Sanders gets the nod.

[wendylaroux]

168. yup,so do I Autumn nt

[Duckhunter935]

2. and Hillary supporters

Are really no reason that I can not support her even with the insults and lies they post. I vote for the best candidate not the supporters.

[MaggieD]

3. Ok!

[JaneyVee]

4. Which is why Hillary is pulling away...

Democrats like her.

[MaggieD]

7. Yes, and loyal Dems are unlikely to vote for....

... a guy who has dissed their party for 25 years, even if they don't read all the smears by his supporters on the internet. I think a lot of the early endorsements are also due to that.

[Gregorian]

15. Pardon me, but our party dissed US.

And I could care less who supports any candidate. If trump supports Bernie in the end, I'll welcome him. I won't welcome his racism however.

[MaggieD]

40. No they didn't

The data shows that about 25% of liberals consider themselves "very or extremely liberal." There aim seems to be to turn the Dem party into the socialist party, and they are pissed that most Dems will not go along with that. I think that is the root of it.

You can't force your ideology onto a party. You would be better off trying to make the socialist party viable in this country.

[Gregorian]

62. Glass–Steagall; the Iraq war votes; impeachment off the table.

You know, it's like Martin Luther King Jr. when he said "I have a dream, but it's just a pipe dream. Never mind.".

[MaggieD]

76. Well we just disagree

I'm not one of the purity police. I will not budge on my support for the Democratic party. I know that is what Bernie supporters want. And one of the things they find so attractive about him is that he is NOT a Democrat. But that works against him to me.

[Gregorian]

240. I'm a Bernie supporter who doesn't look at it that way. I just want a better society.

I haven't met a Bernie supporter yet who has some kind of allegiance to anything. I thought we were a bit like cats.

[notadmblnd]

254. How do you know that Sanders supporters like him because he's not a Dem?

Who tells you this? Because you never seem to provide any evidence for what you claim. If you're getting your information on social media, I think you would be able to provide links to what people are saying. I'd be surprised if you're speaking to people in the street as you don't seem to spend any time away from your keyboard and DU. So please, I'm genuinely interested to know where you get your information.

[choie]

154. "you can't force your ideology onto a party"

what the hell do you think the Clintons and their DLC ilk have done?

[yallerdawg]

195. If it didn't win and give us a platform...

to express Democratic values, 4 more years of Bush 1.0 would have been better? And then what?

12 years of conservative rule in America would have been worse? Clinton beat an incumbent! They tried to impeach his ass from Day 1! Republicans know the difference, they sure do!

I just don't get this rejection of the Party out of context with the infinitely worse alternative. You all constantly take your eyes off the prize.

Nixon, Reagan, either Bush, a McCain, a Romney, would be better than a Clinton?

Go Hillary!!!

[Voice for Peace]

253. "socialist party"

Yowza. What is that, can you explain?

[AgingAmerican]

20. Purity

[MaggieD]

51. Correct - that's a huge problem with the extreme left

They demand purity. Isn't that the reason for the post by a Bernie supporter about "14% of Democrats will not support Hillary"?

[AgingAmerican]

120. No you demand purity

:laughing

[BlueCaliDem]

223. She just won another super-delegate - Washington Governor, Jay Inslee!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251878985

[Voice for Peace]

252. "loyal dems"

Eek

[earthside]

142. Not really.

But the establishment of the Democratic party has decided that it is Hillary's turn.

The pressure from the top is pretty overwhelming for a lot of rank-and-file activists to get on board the Hillary steamroller or be flattened.

Of the many Democrats I talk to, relatively few have any enthusiasm for Clinton -- even the Hillarians are kind of stuck in the 'first woman president' thing and hardly ever extol Clinton's bold progressive leadership (because she isn't a bold progressive leader).

I've been around here for a long time and the Hillarians really are pretty much the same as they were eight years ago: mean, petulant, 'conservative', petty and snarky. There is a lot of projection, too, as the OP actually demonstrates.

For the future of the nation we can hope that grassroots, progressive Democrats prevail when the actual caucusing and voting starts next year and the establishment corporatists of the Democratic Party are put in their place like they were eight years ago.

Otherwise, we are going to be stuck with a Repuglican majority in Congress (as the Hillarians tell us constantly we are going to have anyway) and if things keep going the way they are ... a Trump or Cruz in the White House.

[seabeyond]

173. Polls disagree with your assertions.

[PowerToThePeople]

8. At best, DINOS

at worst? I do give Obama some credit for his past 6 months, he has finally made his way to the left side of the spectrum. Too little too late imho though.

I'll vote for the one that stands up for the issues I believe in.

I'll vote for Bernie.

[MaggieD]

9. 60% of Dems are DINOs

Are you sure? LOL!

[PowerToThePeople]

13. Not sure where you pull that from

But, facts do not tend to matter to some.

[AgingAmerican]

10. Suuurrrre they are!

[Cornus]

11. As a Bernie supporter...

...I feel that much of what you posted could also be applied to Hillary supporters. Go figure....

[MaggieD]

18. Are you okay?

You seem to have been interrupted in mid post! Sending good vibes for a speedy recovery.

[AgingAmerican]

24. He is holding up a mirror for you!

Can't force ya to look I suppose..

[MaggieD]

52. I can look

I looked. I like what I saw. A loyal Dem who will not vote for a Non-Dem.

[2pooped2pop]

63. but but but, I thought it was Bernies supporters that made you pick Hillary

Now it's the non dem? lol You contradict yourself in most of your posts that I see. I think you are trying too hard to convince yourself that you have chosen correctly.

[MaggieD]

78. No, I picked Hillary because she is the most qualified DEMOCRAT

I am a Democrat. I don't vote for non-Dem candidates. I might have been able to make an exception this one time but again, I will not aide and abet the concept of smearing my party as a way to win an election. I think that is an important principle to stand by.

So no contradiction. Sorry.

[2pooped2pop]

115. It is a contradiction if you read the title of your post

Maybe you should change it to "todays attempt to make those darn Sanders supporters leave Hillary alone! It's not fair with them telling the truth and stuff" Or something like that.

[MaggieD]

125. Oh, I know the extreme left will always smear actual Democrats

I've been an activist for a very long time. So I know that. But you've lost the folks who would have held their nose and voted for him. And you've lost your seat at the table when the election is over.

It seems the extremists never learn that lesson, no matter how many times it is demonstrated to them.

[2pooped2pop]

133. well to be true

there's only a handful of dems who are actual democrats. Many forgot long ago who they represented.

[MaggieD]

152. I get that you feel that way

But I think your anger actually comes from the fact that you want the Dem party to be the party of socialism. They are not and never will be, and if they were they would never get elected in most states, or to the presidency. I am sure that is frustrating for you, but it is what it is. Tilting at windmills won't change it.

[2pooped2pop]

161. no, really don't know much about socialism

I just want all of our elected officials to work for the people rather than the corporations
and not be able to be bought.

No matter what they call themselves or what party they belong to.

[AgingAmerican]

91. The other day she was bragging about hating Sanders

That person is all over the map. Consistency is definitely not her strong suit.

[2pooped2pop]

95. I know, I've seen her around

well, you can't help but see her around. She makes a snide comment on everything. Funny but her and another poster is why I make snide comments on Hillary. She does make me laugh a lot though, so I'm almost glad she is here. That's kind of a big almost. lol

[MaggieD]

99. Glad to see you read all my posts!

And that you don't like them. I consider it a badge of honor!

[2pooped2pop]

103. no, did you even read my post?

I like them. They are funny and I said I am almost glad you are here to keep me entertained. I'm sure I don't read all of your posts but they do kind of stick out. lol

[MaggieD]

105. That's awesome - thank you!

LOL!

[2pooped2pop]

118. NP n/t

[RKP5637]

14. I like both Bernie and Hillary. I'll figure out which one I will vote for as the

primaries approach. And will have no difficulty supporting the nominee. Whatever, I want to see a Dem in the WH 2016. The alternatives with R's are horrendous.

[ESKD]

16. I am not voting for Clinton in the primaries because she is the wrong candidate for all of us.

Not because of her supporters. Simply put: she is the status quo candidate

I support Bernie because he has the right idea of what direction America ought to go.

If Clinton ends up being the nominee, you can count on me giving her my vote. The rest will not be provided.

[MaggieD]

21. I wish I could say the same

.... but I just can't this time. It's a shame.

[ESKD]

27. So you won't vote for Bernie if he is the nominee?

He is already a Democrat if ideological purity is your thing.

[leftofcool]

31. Yea, he become one abut a month ago.

[MaggieD]

41. I don't consider him a Democrat - no.

Because he spent 25 years telling us he wasn't one. I will stick to voting for Democrats. I am a Democrat and always have been.

[Kentonio]

19. Perhaps if you Hillary fans hadn't spent months insulting and mocking Bernie supporters

The overall tone wouldn't have reached this low. With a few exceptions, Sanders supporters have largely criticized Clinton herself. Clinton supporters however have largely critized Sanders supporters. That difference is absolutely critical. You continue to make this personal to other DU posters instead of just debating the strengths of the candidates. When you do that, it's a little rich to try and claim Bernie supporters are the ones acting without any class.

[MaggieD]

23. Oh, I think it's pretty clear where it started

Before Hillary even announced this place had turned into Obama smear central. I like Skinner's statement that he had no idea how many democrats hate democrats.

It has been illuminating, that is for sure.

[AgingAmerican]

26. Hypocrisy much?

[kath]

171. I like Skinner's statement that "This issue of Bernie's party affiliation is a nonissue. For all

intents and purposes he's a Democrat, and has been since he first joined Congress years ago."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251774376. (See post#3)

Skinner has stated this MULTIPLE times, for months now.

[leftofcool]

29. Maybe you should have read John Lewis' FB page

[Kentonio]

37. So a few assholes on the internet is cause for insulting large numbers of fellow DU'ers?

There will always be people on both sides who come out with offensive and obnoxious crap, but when you group all supporters together under that label and repeatedly post ops calling all those people deluded, naive and basically vile people, how exactly do you think they're going to react to that?

[MaggieD]

43. If it was only a few that would be fine

But it's not a few.

[riversedge]

71. That was so hurtful and painful to see-and so many

of the comments came from Sanders supporters.

[still_one]

22. I cannot take that approach. I will vote for whoever the Democratic nominee is. All I have to do

is look at the republicans, and their actions. Those who say they will not vote for the Democratic nominee because it is not to their liking I do not think very much of. They are selfish, and it is only about them. There is a difference between the republican candidates and the Democratic candidates.

A woman's right to choose, the supreme court, veto power, civil rights, gender rights, gay rights, etc. etc. etc.

That I have had to even repeat the obvious in so many other threads where others have said they will not vote for the Democratic nominee is extremely sad, and they still try to rationalize that position with me. It is the position of someone who is irrelevant.

[MaggieD]

28. That's cool

I can respect that. I just can't do the same. Certainly not trying to convince anyone to follow my lead.

[840high]

208. I don't give a rat's ass

who you vote for. Stop blabbering.

[seabeyond]

212. Are you merely blabbering, too?

[leftofcool]

25. I was fine with Bernie until what his supporters did to John Lewis

I am not talking about DU Bernie supporters. But many of the Bernie internet supporters swarmed John Lewis' Face Book page with some of the most disgusting, racist messages I have ever seen.

[MaggieD]

30. Yes, that and the attacks on AA really turned the tide for me

[still_one]

47. What are the odds that the majority of those who provided the ugly remarks were not even Democrats?

[leftofcool]

72. Who knows? They signed themselves as Bernie supporters

[2naSalit]

184. I wonder if

these are the "false flaggers" who decided to create some of their own mischief in that vein just to liven things up a la those fake expose' videos. Pretending to be supporters when actually they are opponents.

[reformist2]

32. Whatever. I think you're starting to understand the concern over Hillary, and you can't stand it...

[MaggieD]

48. Nah, I think she will win handily

I'm just telling you his supporters aren't helping him. That is one of the reasons he has flat lined in the polls. IMO. I think his supporters have polarized the opposition to the extent that he has lost support he would have had were he to be the nominee. But he won't be.

However, if the extreme liberals want to make extreme liberalism viable I think you're going about it the wrong way.

[cantbeserious]

33. This Citizen Regards HRC Supporters With The Same Level Of Contempt

eom

[MaggieD]

129. Sadly, you seem to be in the minority

At least in the real world. Don't let DU convince you that most actual Dems agree. They don't.

[cantbeserious]

131. Your Opinion Only - Others See The World Differently

eom

[Thinkingabout]

34. Hillary is the best candidate running for president. She has not spent time trashing the DNC, DWS,

wanting to primary Obama, Bill Clinton, unions which endorse Sanders, congressional members who endorse Sanders, she does make a lot of comments about Republicans.

[cantbeserious]

46. This Citizen Understands That HRC Would Not Bite The Hand That Feeds Her

This Citizen comprehends all too clearly that HRC is a minion of the Oligarchs, Corporations and Banks.

This Citizen clearly sees the corporate front embraced by the DNC DWS DLC Third-Way Establishment by way of the Democratic Party edifice.

[Thinkingabout]

101. This citizen understand Hillary has not trashed the DNC and is now running on the DNC ticket.

[cantbeserious]

112. This Citizen Recognizes That Some Are Blind To The Hollow Shell

That The Corporate Democratic Party Has Become.

[Thinkingabout]

130. BYE

[cantbeserious]

132. Glad To Speak With You - Have A Nice Day

eom

[etherealtruth]

35. Quit reading GDP

It is not the candidate's fault that people represent them so poorly.

We have really good candidates; each with tremendous strengths and admittedly each with some weaknesses (weaknesses that are irrelevant compared to the GOP clown car candidates).

I served on a jury for your post which is the only reason I came to GDP .... I wanted to throw in my 2 cents: QUIT READING in GDP. You will appreciate our candidates much, much more

[MaggieD]

55. Bernie spent 25 years dissing Dems

I think they took their cue from him. And not just GDP, but all over the internet.

[AgingAmerican]

124. You keep claiming that yet never offer examples

[MaggieD]

128. The examples have been posted here many times

You could not possibly have missed them all.

[AgingAmerican]

134. So you have none

[MaggieD]

140. I just don't play fetch

Especially when it's something that is common knowledge, and the poster is just playing games. But have a nice day.

[AgingAmerican]

151. Your the one making the claim

Which you obviously cannot back up!

[MaggieD]

163. Are you really that uninformed?

You're hear almost everyday. How did you miss that?

http://thinkprogress.org/special/2011/07/22/277124/bernie-sanders-primary-obama/

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251755419

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/08/15/1409803/-Introducing-Bernie-Sanders-the-Hypocrite

[AgingAmerican]

167. None of which back your claim

[MaggieD]

178. Of course they do

They show he dissed Democrats for 25 years and that he called for a primary on Obama. But your response is exactly why I am reluctant to play fetch for Bernie supporters. Especially when it comes to things that are common knowledge. They are impervious to facts.

[zalinda]

188. If he really wanted to diss the Democrats

he would have run as a third party candidate. He could have saved his money that he is spending on the primary. But, don't let that little fact detour your hatred of all things Bernie.

Z

[seabeyond]

191. He has no hope going it alone. He needed and needs the Democratic base and support system.

He learned well how to sell his votes to the Democratic party to obtain his Independent position. Congressional race 1990. He was merely pulling out old tricks from his hat with this race.

[zalinda]

211. The Dem party heads have been in the tank for Hillary

since day one. With the Internet now, Bernie could have foregone the dem party altogether, as he certainly hasn't gotten any help from the dem party at all. In fact, the dem party heads have made it very difficult for O'Malley or Bernie to get their message out, and without the Internet, we may not have heard of them at all.

Z

[seabeyond]

216. The majority of the Democratic base has supported Clinton from day one. Yes. She is that strong.

[zalinda]

227. If the heads of the party has to

boost her standing with Democratic voters over 2 other qualified candidates, then that means she isn't that strong on her own merits.

Z

[seabeyond]

230. Clinton's numbers haven't changed much. She is a strong candidate, the Democratic base recognizes.

[zalinda]

257. The Democratic base is only about 33%

She can't win if no one else votes for her.

Z

[potone]

304. Dissing Dems, or disagreeing with their policies?

The Democratic party establishment is much more conservative than it used to be. While Bill Clinton's centrism helped him get elected, it came at a price for the most vulnerable members of society (i.e. Welfare reform) and strengthened the power of corporations. In the years since, the economic situation has gotten much worse, and income insecurity has gotten worse. This is what Bernie's supporters are reacting to. Why is it that you don't seem to be concerned about that?

[Cheese Sandwich]

36. Flame bait

[MaggieD]

57. Hey, I'm just explaining how the tactics are backfiring

But speaking of flamebait, what do you think about that thread declaring 14% of Dems won't vote for Hillary? Thoughts?

[SwampG8r]

176. I think its being generous

14% seems low but i dont think it takes into account those who wont bother showing up if she is the nominee
I think the 14% is representative of registered dems who will vote gop or third party
Conservative dems and reagan dems
Its the people who wont show up that should take it to mid 20 % or higher

[MaggieD]

180. I don't think that attempted blackmail will work

And if it does, the folks Bernie claims to represent will be hurt the most by it. No doubt about that in my mind.

[SwampG8r]

215. I dont get what you mean

I meant 14% wouldnt vote for her and thats reasonable given 200000+ registered dems voting gop just here in florida in2000
She just doesnt generate any enthusiasm

[seabeyond]

38. I do not have to declare I wont vote Sanders. It is Clinton's primary.

I do agree that it was the supporters that was the first tell for me that what Sanders represents is not my Democratic values. I have since done the research on Sanders because of the supporters and I better understand why he attracts all the people that work against women and social issues.

He is proud of being an Independent and creating chaos in the Democratic party. That is not something I condone or desire with the struggle of Republican control of our three branches.

No. Sanders nor his supporters will not be rewarded with the base Democratic vote, nor should they be.

[MaggieD]

104. They used the exact wrong tactics

As far as I am concerned.

[seabeyond]

114. Missteps in running this campaign at every point. I saw another just yesterday. If one can make a

poorer choice, I haven't seen it.

You do not dismiss, ignore and insult the Democratic base, as you demand the vote. Just not gonna work.

Oh. The ACA, PP vote.

Politically, to spend a career making sure you are there to vote, then on ACA and PP vote state how it is irrelevant to vote, was an amazing misstep.

[MaggieD]

136. That's exactly right

It's a text book example of how not to run a campaign. IMO.

[Kentonio]

279. This is nonsensical.

He's gone from about 3% to 36% with no establishment backing. It's a textbook example of how you SHOULD run a populist campaign. This idea that he's failing is just bizarre when you consider the strength of his opponent going into this race.

[Agschmid]

39. A candidates supporters should have no impact on who you support.

If they do then you could have never supported than candidate to begin with.

This is just a biased OP no way around it.

[mythology]

42. That would be silly

Any of the three candidates are far better than any of the Republicans running. Don't let pride or ego get in the way of voting for the nominee.

There are plenty of people on both sides of the Sanders/Clinton debate that have done and said things that are mean and wrong and yes even some stupid things. Pretending that it's so much worse from the Sanders side is silly.

On a personal level, my dad, who was an abusive asshole was a Democrat. I don't hold that against the party. My favorite grandfather was and uncle is Republican. I don't hold that against them.

[MaggieD]

50. I don't see it that way

But you are, of course, welcome to your opinion.

[Broward]

45. You are not alone. There are many on the right that won't support Bernie.

[MaggieD]

49. And on the left

Obviously.

[msrizzo]

53. I'll vote for Bernie in the General.

If I have to.

[2pooped2pop]

54. I don't think I could handle having you on our team anyway. so stick with weathervane, please

Wow

[MaggieD]

60. And you can stick with the Not a Dem guy!

I'm a Democrat. Wouldn't want to ruin my 38 year record of only voting for Democrats.

[2pooped2pop]

66. so it's not because of Bernies supporters after all?

Your whole post was about how we were your main reason for not going with Bernie. It's ok though, your candidate changes with the flow of the wind too.

[Live and Learn]

86. +1000 nt

[MaggieD]

117. I could have held my nose

I've done it before. But nope, not now.

You know what's funny? Bernie had a good chance to move the party to the left, and he might have even made it a contest if he could have gotten some AA support behind him. But his supporters made sure that didn't happen.

This is the mistake the extreme left makes every time. They aren't content to make their case - they have to create a circular firing squad and target every Dem they can find instead of attacking rethugs instead. That's why they don't get a seat at the table when the election is over.

And don't worry about me. Worry about the Dem elected officials who write off the extreme left because of these tactics. That is one reason why you are seeing all the early endorsements for Hillary. The other, of course, is because she is the most qualified Dem candidate we have had in decades.

[2pooped2pop]

126. right his supporters made that happen

Do you even read your own posts? I am beginning to think you are the same person as another poster. You don't have two accts so you always have someone to agree with you do you? That would be so funny.

We are seeing the early endorsements of Hillary because it's prefixed that way. It's like the union endorsements. They are really only the union leaders. The people who weild the power. It's the little people who are gonna be voting and most of them will not be siding with union leaders pre ordained choice.

[2pooped2pop]

108. Love the guy you call Not a dem guy.

He works for the people, don't cha know.

[2pooped2pop]

137. at least the "not a dem guy"

isn't republican lite.

[seabeyond]

149. Clinton is in the top 15% as the most progressive Democrat.

[2pooped2pop]

162. then that kind of proves my other post on dems

and how so many are not working for the people but are selling out to corporate rule.

[seabeyond]

175. No, it does not. It could also suggest that you are not talking about Clinton's actual

voting record, but piecing it to fit your argument.

[cantbeserious]

77. This Citizen Suspects That Some Truly Enjoy Twisting In The Wind

[2pooped2pop]

100. some are able to do that easier than others. n/t

[cantbeserious]

106. This Citizen Agrees - Some Are Truly Co-opted By The Cult Of Personality - Rudderless To The Core

eom

[seabeyond]

116. We all get our unique ways of posting. I get that. I certainly love my own style. But,

This style is a new one for me. I am not sure what to make of it.

Regardless. He has spent his career dissing the Democratic Party, the quotes are there to prove it, which was the statement I made. Agree or not is irrelevant.

[cantbeserious]

119. As The Citizen Said - We All Have Our Own Styles

eom

[R B Garr]

238. HAHA, and this is the EXACT attitude I saw here

that made me sure early on that I could not take Bernie seriously. I was going to post something separately in agreement with MaggieD, but your post is exactly what I see here that made me realize why I can't stand Bernie.

I saw an overnight hostility towards non-believers (Bernie questioners) here after Bernie announced. There was a lot of nonsense about Warren before, but it turned viscious after Bernie's announcement.

I didn't vote in the 2008 primaries because I liked both candidates and California usually doesn't matter anyway for primaries as its decided long before California votes.

What happened with the candidates in 2008 caught me by surprise. I followed it on the news; that's it. That didn't stop people here from calling me vile names, questioning my integrity, calling me an old bat liar, etc. So I said, Fuck It. Not interested in that kind of mentality and I don't want to be associated with it. That solidified me for Clinton right away, and I haven't looked back.

So...I was rejected by the BernieBros. Sniffle. I was not a hip cat, cool cat Daddio anti-establishment cowabunga instant revolutionary, so I was rejected. Cool by me, you can have him. Ugh.

On an initial level, I questioned why a 74 yo man waited all his life to run for Prez, so I doubted his veracity and credibility. He should have started much younger like MOM is doing. That would have been believable. I think his supporters are being taken for a ride, big time.

[2pooped2pop]

264. wow, I can't believe anyone would choose their candidate on the supporters

Maybe you should have looked at the candidates instead of worrying if people thought you were a hp cat, cool cat daddio or now.
Wow..

[MaggieD]

58. Huh?

Why? Do you have something against people from India or Mexico?

[Agony]

81. Thread winner.

[MaggieD]

141. How so?

Sorry, but is this anti-immigrant rhetoric or something else?

[kath]

153. Definitely

huzzah to AwareOne!

[Live and Learn]

217. Wow, that was a bad hide.

Apparently some people got ignorant mixed up with immigrant. Or they just don't pay attention to the news and jumped to conclusions.

[rhett o rick]

267. We are getting a lot of bad hides lately if you've noticed. nm

[joshcryer]

59. Don't let faux supporters sway you.

And you're wrong that Sanders attacks democrats, he caucases with them and works with them.

[MaggieD]

64. He has a long history of dissing Dems

Right down to calling for a primary on Obama in 2012. I'm a Democrat. Not going to vote for someone who isn't. Never have, never will.

[joshcryer]

69. He did not call for a primary.

He said there is nothing wrong with it. And yes, Obama did have a primary because the party requires it. Obama simply didn't have a credible challenger.

[MaggieD]

156. He said it "would be a good idea"

http://thinkprogress.org/special/2011/07/22/277124/bernie-sanders-primary-obama/

[joshcryer]

165. And it was.

We had a primary. Nader even predicted Obama would lose. There were huge threads here about it.

[fredamae]

90. I have too

and up until about 8 months ago-I was a Registered Dem since I could first vote in the early 1970's.....and a staunch Dem supporter since 1959.
I am Especially critical of Democrats to this day and especially in these political times.
I am curious to understand why people see the Democratic party as "pure" and any criticism is forbidden...I always believed that was a GOP thang.

[seabeyond]

96. No one is suggesting purity. The issue is actively working toward chaos and destruction of the party

[fredamae]

139. Responses to those who criticize

Dems are inferring "party purity" and that those stated complaints Are improper. At least that's the take-away message I see.
"Right down to calling for a primary on Obama in 2012. I'm a Democrat. Not going to vote for someone who isn't. Never have, never will."
I also wanted a Dem Primary in 2012! And so did many other good Dems. I don't see a problem with exercising democracy in a democratic system.
It's like those criticizing HRC for once being a Republican or, or, or, or. It never ends. In my opinion, it is all superficial and intended to divide. We opt to dig deep and make up negative crap to nurture hate, suspicion, animosity and yes, destruction of the party........Instead of having discussions about the Positives each candidate could bring...Do these goals sound like the Dem party to you?

[seabeyond]

172. I think when a politician has a career stating the Democratic and Republican party are the same,

there are going to be issues when asking for the Democratic base vote.

One of his purpose being an Independent was an ability to diss both parties. This would be the repercussion of three decades or more of doing just that.

[fredamae]

203. I'm caring less these days

about party affiliation...past, present and future....I'm looking at past records...voting....policy positions. I - personally - found myself "blinded" by decades of party loyalty. I'm over it.

I know there are many others who feel as I do...considering themselves more/most aligned with "party A or Party B...but not blindly committed to either. The established leaders on both sides worry about this trend.

I too, have made claims..long before I heard Sanders say it---that Policy wise...Vote wise..the lines of differentiation were and still are ... Very blurred these days. This is not unique to Bernie. It didn't start with Bernie.
It started in the mid-to late 1980's as many of us watched Democrats bail on principal and become GOP lite. DLC/Third Way etc.
I'd say the reputation and criticism for the Dem party - from Dems -is earned. But that's simply My personal view.
Sanders has a strong record of caucusing with Dems since forever ago. We conveniently forget about that...his service and commitment to Dem Party values - casting his votes in Support of Dems - in congress....as an Ind. Why don't we discuss that? Has his support of Dem Pols all these decades Harmed the party in some way?
I think the more important task for us each individually- is to focus on current and past positions, policy statements etc for all candidates-with maturity that allows us to see through This superficial criticism and ask ourselves do we agree or disagree with any candidates Proven record of service to people over corporations, special interests and those who are the most wealthy etc....

[seabeyond]

209. I think a lot of the discontentment is a lack of honesty of the reality we sit,

and a demand for self interests to be implemented now, dammit.

You want to start a revolution from the beginning? local and spreading up and out? I am all for that.

If people tell me to ignore all reality, make a statement with a vote that will inevitably hurt us worse, simply because we want an immediate fix that has no chance of happening, I won't endorse that.

It is cutting off the nose to spite the face, and I have never been that careless with life choices.

[fredamae]

219. We can't Know the future

we can speculate...we can assume....we can't "know with certitude" (except when it is the GOP) that candidate A over candidate B will hurt us. We have our individual opinions...
I would simply like to see informative, thoughtful adult discussions over the important stuff - past and present policy positions, changes of mind and heart over time...past legislative performances etc...and arguing about a "title" ain't it, imo.

[seabeyond]

221. We can know the now, though. Which is my point.

[fredamae]

225. Ok, where is the harm?

Where is the "cutting off one's nose to spite face"?

Help me understand the valid "here and now" concerns re: Bernie. I mean no insult or disrespect but I really don't understand - based on policies and records of the candidates - why such animosity toward Sanders?

[seabeyond]

229. Why so much animosity? I have come to the conclusion

that Sanders is more about working up discontent, anger and hate, than to actually solving issues. Sanders ignores where we sit today, with control of Republicans in two branches, and suggest that the Democratic and Republican parties are alike. That is false. He stands up in front of people saying what they want to hear. I could do that. Any of us can. With absolutely no ability for follow thru. He brings the nation of our young to a hopelessness, not guiding them to putting our heads down, doing the work, and progress to a better life.

If he had stood up and started his speeches with, get into the local politics. Get control with our state govt. Then we might be able to accomplish something.

Instead he simply insults the people that have been moving us forward, slowly, I get that, but forward. Stating they are do nothing, and no difference, and a lesser evil. And he himself accomplishes little to nothing.

I have never done well wasting my time on the undoable, whether as an employee, boss or parent, or my personal life. It is a waste of time, effort and energy, only to arrive at hopelessness. I am much better looking at an issue and seeing what I can do to improve and evolve.

I do not like someone with a voice playing on peoples desperation.

[fredamae]

236. Can you please offer context?

Sites? Quotes? Is his criticism unfounded? To whom and about what? When?

I don't see the same things you do...that's good...it's good you don't see it my way too---and I appreciate the conversation here.
I have known about and followed Bernie for about a decade now...and while I do not read every article and listen to every speech..I believe I have a fairly realistic understanding of him, his ideals, his policies and his agenda. I don't allude to any "human perfection" in my consideration. We have no such candidate. Never have, never will.
My opinion is supported widely by others as well. But, I get it-that's the choir. If, in consideration of party unity down the road-and If "we're" serious about collectively delivering a Dem congress And POTUS to DC..then, imo-we'd better start getting real specific about our complaints and have a real discussion amongst the electorate about those issues and get them behind "us" quickly.
One way or another "we"re" gonna need each other in a few months. I'd like to see a more cohesive Dem base than what we have going on here. Again...just My opinion.

[Little Star]

270. Hear, hear!

[MaggieD]

160. Exactly

And I simply cannot get behind that.

[Bluenorthwest]

111. The Democratic Party says Bernie is a Democrat, Bernie says he is and our Primary started out with

two candidates who were Republican officials at a time when Sanders was co-founding what is now the largest Democratic Caucus in the Congress. Many people support Elizabeth Warren, who was voting for Bush when Bernie was founding that Caucus. If all of those people are now Democrats, it's obviously not some genetic trait, it is a matter of declaration. Bernie certainly never was a Republican, a Reaganite. Other candidates were. But you go after Bernie. To do so, you undermine the Party as electoral authority.

You claim the Party is lying. That's a hell of a stance to take while claiming to be the Super Dem.

[seabeyond]

82. Not true. He has spent his political career dissing the Democratic Party. Here are just a few.

"You don’t change the system from within the Democratic Party"

“My own feeling is that the Democratic Party is ideologically bankrupt.”

“We have to ask ourselves, ‘Why should we work within the Democratic Party if we don’t agree with anything the Democratic Party says?’”

“I think what we have today is, I think, a Republican Party which has moved from a center-right party over the last decades to a right-wing extremist party,” he said, the subway whooshing him from the Capitol to his office. “I think you have a Democratic Party which is not as strong as it should be in standing up for the working class of this country and taking on big-money interests. And that’s been my view for a long time.”

“One can argue that the two-party system is a sham,”

“I am not now, nor have I ever been, a liberal Democrat,”

“The main difference between the Democrats and the Republicans in this city,” he said in an interview in Burlington in July with a Cornell student writing a master’s thesis, “is that the Democrats are in insurance and the Republicans are in banking.”

he called the Democratic Party “ideologically bankrupt,” then added: “They have no ideology. Their ideology is opportunism.”

“I am not a Democrat, period.” Sanders’ support for Michael Dukakis, the eventual nominee, was so tepid it almost didn’t even qualify. He dubbed Dukakis “the lesser of two evils” as opposed to George H.W. Bush.

the Democratic and Republican parties “tweedle-dee” and “tweedle-dum,” both adhering in his estimation to an “ideology of greed and vulgarity.”

"It would be hypocritical of me to run as a Democrat because of the things I have said about the party."

"The Democratic Party ideologically bankrupt, they have no ideology. Their ideology is opportunism.”

“Why should we work within the Democratic Party if we don’t agree with anything the Democratic Party says?”

“I am extremely proud to be an independent. The fact that I am not a Democrat gives me the freedom to speak out on the floor of the House, to vote against both the Democratic and Republican proposals.”

[Bluenorthwest]

143. He's a co-founder of the largest Democratic Caucus in the US Congress, the Progressive Caucus

Hey, shall we search some of your older posts on marriage equality for fun? I see you offering 80's quotes in there. So can I now hold Hillary to her past anti equality statements with your approval? Can I cite the Bible waving bigotry of oh, so many Hillary supporters just a few short years ago? Is that how you folks want this? Seriously?

Hillary supported DOMA. In the past. Using your standards I have to assume she still does and that she is always what she said in the 90's, or 6 years ago. Do you want that?

I am here to tell you as a lifelong Democrat that I criticized this Party nonstop in the 80's and 90's. It deserved it. It needed to be set on course as much as possible. Tens of thousands of Americans were dying and the Republicans were doing nothing about it and the Democrats were playing best friends with them. If you did not criticize that, you might as well have been one of those 'Reagan Democrats' the elected Ronnie twice.

[seabeyond]

181. First Blue, I will be the first to admit that my understanding of marriage equality was off in 2004.

One of my greatest lessons to shut the fuck up and listen. Though my intent was good, I thought civil unions would help progress us forward. I was unequivocally and with certainty, told why I was wrong. I shut the fuck up, and listened.

So, If you want to go back in my past, and find posts where I was wrong, that is fine with me. I have no problem at all now, or then, recognizing my errors. Further, I myself have used that as an example recently, how we may be wrong, but it is important to listen, and it was 2004 marriage equality that taught me that.

That being said, the poster stated Sanders does not/did not diss the Democratic Party. Sanders has been consistently dissing the Democratic party from the start of his political career to this day. I merely pulled out a handful, without a lot of research.

And nowhere is Sanders pulling back from all his many statements, nor is he declaring he was in error at any point. He still stands by what he said.

[Bluenorthwest]

262. So you desire leeway and context given to you that you refuse to give to others. That's unethical.

The Democratic Party often needs criticism, those of you who do not are failing your duty to the Party. Bernie Sanders co-founded what is now the largest Democratic Caucus in the Congress and was it's first elected Chair. So you keep saying 'he dissed them'. But in truth he built a caucus with them, from day one, a vital caucus that is extremely useful to minority issues and other progressive initiatives. How is that a 'diss'? He gets elected, meets up with Maxine Waters, Peter DeFazio, Ron Dellums and a couple of others and creates a Democratic caucus with them, then they elect him to Chair the thing, this you call 'consistent dissing'. He votes with this Party, sometimes in error, such as his vote for the Crime Bill, which I opposed but the Party supported. People on DU currently despise that crime bill.

The Party that did DOMA needed to be dissed. The Party that did not pressure Reagan to take action on AIDS so they could play patsy cake with Tip and the Gipper needed to be dissed. I dissed this Party Harvey Milk's first campaign slogan was 'Harvey Milk vs The Machine' meaning the Democratic Party machine in SF. Harvey was running as a Democrat and a critic of the Party. Our Party was not doing the right things. It was late to the dance. The critics were in fact the best of the Democrats, which is very often the case.

I think all the extreme rhetoric is not helpful to anyone and I really dislike those who look at the world as it is and interfere with the sincere discussion of important choices.

[seabeyond]

265. So you desire leeway and context given to you that you refuse to give to others. That's unethical.

What is unethical is manufacturing a ridiculous argument like you just did. I take ownership for not being fully informed. And when I was made aware of it, I listened.

I do not desire shit, nor have I asked for it. I own my actions.

Do what you want with it. I suggest that is far from being fuckin' unethical.

Sanders himself did not champion marriage equality until 2009. Why does he pretend otherwise, not owning his earlier positions, and why are you not decrying him his actions?

I think all the extreme rhetoric is not helpful to anyone and I really dislike those who look at the world as it is and interfere with the sincere discussion of important choices.

Which is basically what I was pointing out with Sanders very own rhetoric that both parties are the same, do nothing, and lesser of two evils.

[PragmaticLiberal]

61. MOM is my candidate but if Bernie is the nominee I'll vote for him without reservation.

Now with that being said, I totally get where you're coming from. Many of my friends feel the same way you do.

I'm not going to pretend I haven't been been disturbed (pissed) by some of the things his supporters have spouted on social media (and DU).

Personally, I just choose to separate Bernie the candidate, from some of his supporters.

[MaggieD]

74. Bernie is not innocent in this

He dissed the party for 25 years, including calling for a primary on Obama. IMO, he set the tone for this.

But MOM is a good guy. I would vote for him in a heart beat if he won the nomination.

[One of the 99]

65. So if Bernie is the nominee

you would let a Republican win?

[Cheese Sandwich]

70. What do you expect after someone has been terrorized by Bernie Bros. Bernie Bros = terrorists

:sarcasm

[sibelian]

73. Then you have no business voting for anyone anywhere...

...as you clearly have not the FAINTEST idea what voting is actually FOR.

[Jarqui]

75. I'm interested in what the candidate stands for and will do

I'm not interested in putting much stock into posts I don't care for and letting that taint my support.

Calling Hillary out for or exposing her lies, flip-flops, her ugly career association with corporate money or Republican-lite policy positions is part of what a candidate for president should experience when they lie and flip-flop and take money and positions as Hillary has. I realize that's not an easy thing for her supporters to confront - particularly when much of it can't be effectively defended because it's true but Hillary is going to have to confront these things in the general election. And Democrats should be very wary of the consequences of that before they make their final decision in the primary. Otherwise, the Republicans may take the White House.

As a Hillary supporter, maybe you can explain to us why it's ok for Hillary to lie as much as she has and want her as President. Maybe you can explain to how how we can have confidence in her positions she promises today when she's flip-flopped so many times over her career she has me examining nick-names for her like Flap-Jack Clinton. Maybe you can explain her sordid Wall Street corporate money associations that she lied about using 9/11 - a disgraceful excuse. Or how her Republican-lite tax breaks for health care are going to save all the lives of people without health care. As one of Hillary's supporters, I think that's your job. So far, I haven't seen many convincing responses to the above - since 2007!! Maybe there are none.

Hillary's lies, flip-flops, ugly career association with corporate money and Republican-lite policy positions are not things Bernie supporters did. They're things Hillary did of her own free will and seemingly without sincere conscience. You want to support that, that's your prerogative. Bernie's supporters and I are not going to stay silent about them - the issues at stake are too important.

Stop attacking the messengers and address their concerns. That's what Hillary supporters should be doing.

[MaggieD]

83. You're certainly welcome to your opinion

Thanks for kicking my thread.

Now, on to the question you asked. Hillary has not lied about anything. That's a figment of your imagination, IMO.

Another issue is that I have asked and asked and asked for Bernie supporters to provide a single shred of evidence to show she has done something / anything in exchange for people from banking and investment donating to her (which add up to less than 4% of her lifetime donors) and they can't seem to come up with a single thing. Even Bernie could not support that innuendo in the last debate. I wonder why that is?

If you've got something, let me know what it is. It won't change my mind about voting for a guy who is not a Democrat, but at least I would have less disdain for people that make that accusation over and over with nothing to back it up.

[Jarqui]

192. Ok, maybe things are becoming clearer:

Are you serious ?:

Now, on to the question you asked. Hillary has not lied about anything. That's a figment of your imagination, IMO.

I stopped reading with that sentence. Or is the above just a joke.

Just some sample videos exposing Hillary lying.

I could add videos of flip-flops as an offshoot of deceptive behavior. I won't bother for now.

The result of that documented behavior is:

Quinnipiac, Nov 2, 2015:
http://www.quinnipiac.edu/images/polling/us/us11042015_xsq33a.pdf

"Clinton has the lowest rating for honesty as American voters say 60 – 36 percent she is
not honest and trustworthy"

And those results have been repeated in poll after poll with a similar outcome. And it's a key reason why her favorability rating is so negative in poll after poll (-10 in the above poll).

If you seriously do not think Hillary has "lied about anything", I suggest you google "denial" and read up on it.

[OilemFirchen]

260. And it continues.

Ben Shapiro.

Lotsa posters on this thread who've finally decided that right-wing sources are inappropriate and that posters relying on them should be repudiated.

So? Where the fuck are you now?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

79. There is a lot of truth to what you say, Maggie D.

[MaggieD]

92. I know a lot of people who feel the same

I've been a political activist for many years, and in my experience those that consider themselves "extreme or very liberal" never seem to learn this lesson. IMO, it is why they don't get a seat at the table, so to speak, when the election is over. I don't think they (or Bernie) will after this is over either.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

110. It's not so much ideology as their approach...

It is ironic how some suspend their dislike for fundamentalism and orthodoxy when the fundamentalism and orthodoxy is offered by someone they like.

[libdem4life]

80. My third graders had better decision-making abilities

than this. Cop out.

[MaggieD]

85. You probably could have made your opinion known without...

... the insult. LOL! Want to try again?

[DisgustipatedinCA]

189. OK. Second graders.

[libdem4life]

259. Nope. They are called developmental stages of reasoning.

[Skidmore]

289. I imagine your students probably have better

interpersonal skills than I've seen from your responses.

[Bonobo]

84. Pathetic. nt

[fredamae]

87. Makes sense. Both (radical-imo)sides agree with this.

Which is why, I personally try to ignore the petulant - child like nonsense being thrown at the opposition from either side-because for the most part, I don't believe the radical side of either leading candidate are part of the Dem team, anyway. It is, regardless who is doing it--a Divisive Tool that ultimately Helps the GOP.

Just my humble opinion.

[Bluenorthwest]

88. Only a true stooge would allow random others to control their actions. I don't judge any person by

the acts of another. I did not judge Obama by his supporters, some of whom were great and some of whom were homophobes. I do not judge Hillary Clinton by her supporters either, for example KellieKat44, constant attacker of Sanders, supporter of Hillary, finally PPR'd by EarlG for these reasons:
"Posted an OP claiming that the terrorist attacks in Paris were an effort to distract the public from the crimes of Jewish bankers. Posted link to disgusting antisemitic website to support this theory."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=292436&sub=trans

So I could decide that KellieKat44 exposed the antisemitic motives of the genus, Hillary Supporter. But that would make me a true stooge. I could even narrow it down the 'Aggressive Bernie Bashers' and offer that poster as indictment of that set of posters, actively separating them from supporters of Hillary Clinton who are not making constant swipes of dubious merit at the other candidate.

But I'm not like that. I'm a Democrat, and not a stooge and I'm aware of the ratfuckery and shenanigans of the dishonest brokers and the posture strikers and so I just go ahead and think for myself and judge the candidates for themselves.

[hughee99]

89. I find it interesting that Clinton supporters issues with Bernie are his supporters, and Sanders

supporters issues with Clinton is her policies.

[seabeyond]

94. Then you have not been listening. Plenty of arguments have been made per Sanders positions.

[MaggieD]

97. Oh I disagree with him on his solution for every issue

And I have said so repeatedly.

I am just commenting on why I can't swallow hard and vote for the guy given the extremism and Dem bashing of his supporters.

[hughee99]

145. So you disagre with him on his solution for EVERY issue, but you won't ever support him

because of his supporters? For me, personally, if I were to disagree with someone's proposals on EVERY issue, there wouldn't be a bigger reason for me to never support them.

The fact that you've said that's your line in the sand goes directly to my point. Bad policies aren't your breaking point, but bad supporters are.

[LibDemAlways]

199. If you have fundamental disagreements with Bernie

over how he would tackle problems, it would be instructive to hear them instead of simply bashing his supporters.

I have voted solely for Democratic candidates since I became eligible to vote in 1972. I would never consider voting for a Republican under any circumstances. That said, Bernie will get my vote in the primary because of his positions on the issues that matter to me. He will be on my ballot in the D column. If Hillary is the nominee, she will get my vote in the general.

You seem very hung up on labels and on Bernie's past criticism of the Democratic party. I'm surprised that no one has mentioned that Hillary was a Goldwater supporter way back when. It's irrelevant at present, though. She's running as a Democrat. So is Bernie. Voters will consider both based on their stand on the issues -as it should be.

[jkbRN]

93. 5 recs and 90 replies

Is kind of pathetic. You should probably change your tactic.

[MaggieD]

98. Why do recs matter?

They mean nothing on a site that has been taken over by supporters for a candidate who is not a Democrat on a site devoted to supporting Democrats.

[Live and Learn]

102. Rarely does one find such an illuminating post on DU.

[MaggieD]

107. I know, right?

[Live and Learn]

122. So, if a Hillary supporter hurts your feelings, are you going to switch to Trump? nt

[morningfog]

109. Lol. So feeble, so easily influenced.

Of course it is bullshit. You never considered Bernie. You've hated him from day one.

[DFW]

113. I just ignore the angry and snobby stuff

I haven't fallen for that line since Mick Jagger mocked people who say "he can't be a man 'cause he doesn't smoke the same cigarettes as me."

Or, to use another quote , or at least one version, "I don't mind God. It's his fan club I can't stand."

Bernie himself hasn't said anything that turned me off so completely as to drive me to categorically refuse to vote for him. Nor has Hillary, nor has MOM. Sure, some posts in here might make you think this is some snotty fraternity/sorority fight, and if you don't have the right avatar, you're worthless trash. But there's always the option of ignoring posts of that nature, and just looking for objective ones, few though they may be.

[Scuba]

121. That's incredibly stupid.

[MaggieD]

147. Yes, I agree - the BS supporter tactics are incredibly stupid

At least from a political strategy perspective. I cannot imagine how they think it helps them.

[Scuba]

159. Choosing (or rejecting) a candidate based on their supporter's actions is stupid. Period.

[MaggieD]

169. At some point a tipping point is passed

And it is simply too distasteful to get on board. That point has been reached for me.

[TIME TO PANIC]

127. What's wrong with smearing democrats who act like republicans?

[seabeyond]

187. What is wrong is being dishonest about our Democratic frontrunners record, and smearing her as a

Republican when that simply is not factually correct.

[TIME TO PANIC]

213. She's not by today's standards, but

anytime before the 1990's she would be considered a moderate republican. She doesn't support a living wage. She doesn't support single-payer. Hell, she isn't even for the decriminalization of marijuana. She is to the right of Eisenhower, maybe even Nixon.

[liberalnarb]

135. Hillary supporters are some of the biggest smearers on this site.

Yesterday someone told me that Bernie was the "tRump of left". And Bernie criticizes other Democrats because he cares more about the cause and helping the people then he does about partisan politics. Bernie is ahead of every rethuglican candidate in the polls. Hillary is not. Bernie most likely will have a better chance at winning the general than Hillary. I feel this is a slightly foolish reason not to vote for someone just because they dissed someone with a D next to their name. Bernie is fighting for the progressive agenda.

[kath]

138. More piercing insight from one of DUs most shining intellects.

[MaggieD]

144. Thanks for the kick and compliment!

LOL!

[brewens]

146. Our voting history is pretty much the same. But I've realized having been that kind of Democrat

hasn't paid off well the last few decades. Keeping it up only insures merely existing on the scraps the 1% allows us to fight over.

[aikoaiko]

148. Thank you for admitting your PUMA status.

Now other HRC supporters can stop with the claim that HRC supporters will always vote for the Democratic nominee.

[seabeyond]

190. Sanders supporters has PUMA status hands down in this election 2016. I havent heard concern from you

[aikoaiko]

198. I'm not concerned -- just glad to see the veil of deceit be removed.

I'm ok with anyone saying they won't vote for anyone. It's good to be honest and transparent.

For far too long HRC supporters have denied that PUMAs existed in her camp.

I encourage all the others like the OP to admit the same.

[seabeyond]

200. Yet no one will own the many PUMA's in the Sanders camp. 1 aikoaika. You got one. Good for you.

[aikoaiko]

206. Oh I think more than a few Bernie supporters have owned their intention to not vote for HRC.

It's not that "I" have found a HRC puma, but more importantly you.

[seabeyond]

220. More than a few Sanders supporters are PUMAs of 2016. Seems to be important to you, you brought it

up, again.

I didn't care about them in 2008 while I supported Obama and I do not care about them today, while I support Clinton. There will always be the discontented that declare they will not vote for the nominee. I do not waste my time on them, anymore. Before, I considered it selfish to walk away from lives that would be loss. Now, Meh, they probably would not have voted as it is.

[saltpoint]

150. Snotty little post. eom

[liberalnarb]

155. Why isnt Bernie allowed to have disagreements with Democrats?

Listen to his reasoning behind what he says first. Also he caucuses with Democrats and almost always endorses them. He endorsed President Obama and even said that shall she win the primary he will also endorse Hillary. I don't care that he has had disagreements with other dems in the past. He is a wonderfully progressive voice that is a blessing to now have within our party.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

157. Does that make you a "Purist"?

[Agnosticsherbet]

158. Carter was primaried by an opponent on his left

That split the party in 1980.
This reminds me of that election.
I will vote for the Democrat on the General.

[yuiyoshida]

164. Huh?

I don't get the logic of this. Will Bernie Sanders supporters or Hillary Clinton supporter be running the WHITE HOUSE?? NO? ....vote for who is best qualified, not for who has the best FANS...what crap!

Tell you what, I will vote for SUPERGIRL, SHE HAS THE BEST FANS!

[liberalnarb]

166. Also internet bloggers are kind of a pathetic reason not to vote for someone

Don't you think? I don't supporter Hillary because I have certain disagreements with her in areas where I do with Bernie. If I agreed with Hillary it wouldn't matter what internet bloggers who support her say about other dems. It just would not matter.

[Metric System]

170. You don't have to worry because Bernie will NOT be the nominee. Guaranteed.

[MaggieD]

179. Yes, I know

But I wonder if they will learn anything from the failed tactics. Probably not.

[Armstead]

174. Awwwwwwwww shucks

Shucks.......and I thought you said it was because you loathe Bernie.

[ljm2002]

177. Makes sense...

...certainly this Bernie supporter is happy to not be associated with the likes of you.

[workinclasszero]

182. "But internet wide I have seen Bernie supporters smear Dems

like Obama, Hillary, DWS, Pelosi, Reid, and a host of others 24/7. Bernie himself spent years dissing the Democratic party, so maybe that was the cue to Bernie supporters). And now we have seen his supporters attack even those that endorse or otherwise support Hillary, from John Conyers to unions, to the AA community, and on and on."

I learned everything I know about Bernie here on the Bernie Underground which is why I could never vote for him in a primary.
If God forbid Bernie should win the nomination, I would hold my nose and vote for him in the sure knowledge that he will go down to defeat probably in a landslide with huge coattails for the teahaddists.

Then you can kiss america goodbye for the next 30 years or so.


But what can we expect? Bernie has never lifted a finger to help democrats in the past, on the contrary, let the man speak for himself.....


Can Bernie Sanders Win the Love of a Party He Scorns?

The long, troubled history of Bernie Sanders and the 'ideologically bankrupt' party whose White House nod he now seeks.
By MICHAEL KRUSE and MANU RAJU August 10, 2015

"You don’t change the system from within the Democratic Party.”

“My own feeling is that the Democratic Party is ideologically bankrupt.”

“We have to ask ourselves, ‘Why should we work within the Democratic Party if we don’t agree with anything the Democratic Party says?’”

In an op-ed in the New York Times in January 1989, he called the Democratic and Republican parties “tweedle-dee” and “tweedle-dum,” both adhering in his estimation to an “ideology of greed and vulgarity.”

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/08/bernie-sanders-2016-democrats-121181?o=0


"It would be hypocritical of me to run as a Democrat because of the things I have said about the party." Bernie Sanders
- Socialist Scholars Conference in New York City, April 1990.

[bowens43]

183. snap to attention! Step in line! Do as you are told!!!!LOYAL LAOYAL LOYAL

ROFLMAO!!! And post like this are on many many reasons I will never vote for hillary and I will never encourage anyone else to do so!


'any dem' is not good enough. I see no reason to prefer hillary , who has zero credibility , over trump or cruz who at least tells what they really think

[Attorney in Texas]

185. The return of the PUMAs right on schedule! It IS 2007 all over again!!!

[Scootaloo]

186. So you will not support Sanders if he is the nominee. Fascinating. What will you do, then?

Write in clinton?

[TheBlackAdder]

193. ZOMG! Knock these stupid divisive posts out! You work on the Clinton Campaign--Post that too! nt

[artislife]

194. Love this OP!

It shows the wheels are starting to shake loose on the coranation train.


I take this all as a good sign for Sanders.

[seabeyond]

197. Sure. A good sign. Painting Clinton's campaign as a coronation while she continues to strengthen

her ground game, state by state, poll numbers constantly increasing, and beginning her national campaign to take on the Republicans, because of her massive support from her smart, hardworking, competent campaign team.

We all have to see our rainbows as we see it.

[artislife]

201. Keep posting!

Keep talking around her. Like her staff, her delegates, her stradegy...not the candidate herself. Why? Because once you do, then there will be scrutiny on who she is, where she stands, how she votes, what she deems laugh worthy. That is what is sinking her. If she wins the nom, IF, I suspect a loss of the white house.

[seabeyond]

205. She is not sinking, lol. Silliness. And to suggest there is an issue with her voting history,

or the well comprised plans and implementation she has drafted over the last couple months, that is the STRENGTH of her campaign, hence the absurdity stating a coronation, or an unwillingness to discuss that strength.

If we are talking coronation (and remember, you are the one that brought it up), it would be the demand a coronation for Sanders. He does not have plans and implementation of the changes he wants to make. Instead, it is all about, vote for him because he is not either party.

[artislife]

214. Rah rah rah, Go team

Can you guys do pyramids? Back flips? What's your best cheer?



Give me an H---give me ...no just the little h please...heh

[seabeyond]

224. Does this mean you have no argument? Rah, Rah? Really?

[artislife]

228. No it means all I see is rah, rah, rah.

[seabeyond]

231. All you have done is insult me, without addressing the political positions I have put forth.

[artislife]

239. Are you trying to bait me? buh bye....nt

[seabeyond]

248. You insult me every post, I call it out, and you talk about games. Bye, Art.

[Capt. Obvious]

290. That's rather coherent

[SwampG8r]

299. I know right

Went from people asking if english was a second language to these well written cogent and grammatically correct posts over the last time out
Strange days

[Capt. Obvious]

300. it's weird

no idea what's going on here at all

[SwampG8r]

303. Me either

Vitamins maybe?

[Juicy_Bellows]

196. Wake up Maggie I think I got something to say to you.

Ahh nevermind, go back to bed.

[Live and Learn]

235. LOL nt

[CBGLuthier]

202. Hillary supporters have nothing to do with why I won't support Hillary

I have plenty of valid reasons that have nothing to do with her followers.

Just thought you would like to know that.

[Autumn]

207. Will you support Bernie if he is the nominee?

[yallerdawg]

218. It has always been about "Someone Else" or "Anyone But."

Sanders, Warren, Biden - doesn't matter.

2 out of 3 calculated it would be a waste of time.

Sanders is having a last hurrah.

And we have to listen to rightwing drivel, fringy extremist platitudes, libertarian and Green Party positions posing as the "real Democrats" - and so many internet users losing track of what is at stake here and now!

Well, the vast majority of real Democrats support Hillary now and in the General Election - BS won't change that - and we only have to put up with it for a few more weeks!

Take your meaningless shots now while you can...




Key:

Green - Hillary Clinton ahead, 30 states + 3 shared*

Blue - Bernie Sanders ahead, 2 states + 3 shared*

Gray - No polling data in last six months, 15 states & D.C.

[Vinca]

222. You're living in a fantasy world if you haven't seen Bernie smeared by Hillary supporters.

In the end, if we don't support the Democratic candidate - whoever it is - we're very, very likely to have a GOP POTUS, a GOP House and a GOP Senate. More than 1 Supreme Court seat will be on the line. If you are not thick skinned enough to weather the primary storm, maybe you should give up being interested in politics.

[karynnj]

226. So, to use the Clinton argument, you would prefer a Republican to win and nominate SC justices?

There have been excesses on both sides -- but, I have read more posts that question ANY negative post on Clinton as RW.

[Kalidurga]

232. That's funny seriously funny

It's like you think we can't read your posts over a period of time and see how sincere you are as a poster.

That being said it wouldn't matter to me if all of Hillary's supporters were the nicest people you could meet, they aren't but that doesn't matter.

I will not vote for Hillary in the primary, she is not a good candidate. She is terrible in fact. That is all I need to know and her supporters are not making a case for her being a good candidate.

[tammywammy]

233. You're not all peaches and cream yourself.

Last edited Sun Dec 6, 2015, 04:33 PM - Edit history (1)

You've written some pretty crappy OPs and replys using dubious sources. Frankly, you don't represent Clinton very well.

So if this is the tactic you want to take, I suggest you clean up your posting style.

Regardless, basing your vote off so-called internet supporters is ridiculously stupid.

[Live and Learn]

234. +1000 nt

[azmom]

244. Word

[Scootaloo]

251. I think she represents Clinton PERFECTLY

[Politicalboi]

237. Vote for The Donald then

I couldn't care less. Even I see the writing on the wall when it comes to supporting whoever is the Dem nominee.

[Arugula Latte]

241. Sorry, but this is a petty reason that makes no sense.

What does this have to do with Bernie himself? Nothing. He conducts himself in a very honorable way. You wouldn't be voting for the supporters, you'd be voting for one man who has very high moral standards.

[R B Garr]

242. Agreed Maggie. Post 238 has my reasons.

Essentially, I was rejected by the BernieBros -- I'm not k00L enough to belong in such an exclusive club.

Edit-the post above mine now also shows why I think the Bernie movement is phony. It's all about "morals". Most of the issues are couched in a moralistic interpretation. They are not really discussions about "the issues". Preaching to people about their morals is very RW. No thanks!

[Chan790]

243. That's fine, we don't need your support to win.

I hope Hillary cries when she loses this time. Watching Hillary break down and sob would be better than cheesecake.

[Gothmog]

246. I will support the Democratic Nominee no matter what

I am planning to make some more donations to the Clinton campaign

[coyote]

247. Actually you are one of the reasons I would never support Hillary

Your posts are totally unhinged and ugly.

You do no favors for your candidate, that's for sure.

[azmom]

249. For the last time, have some dignity.

You are over 50 with a child. You are better than this.

[ljm2002]

250. Sooo, then, if Bernie should win the primaries...

...you won't be voting for him?

C'mon, tell us what you really think. You know you want to!

[thereismore]

255. You hurt my feelings, MaggieD. nt

[doc03]

256. They certainly turn me off but I will vote for whoever wins the

Democratic nomination. OK don't but when you get a Republican don't complain about a damn thing.

[hrmjustin]

258. Two of them called me blind today.

One of those days.

[rhett o rick]

268. Do you think only Sanders supporters should get banned for saying they won't support the nominee

if it's not who they support? Of should we be fair and ban HRC supporters if they say they won't support Sanders if he is the nominee?

[hrmjustin]

269. I don't want people banned. If Skinner banned everyone who said this then we would be short...

..20 to 40 posters.

After we have a nominee this site unites around that nominee.

[rhett o rick]

280. If we ban Progressives that say they won't support the nominee then we should also

be banning Conservatives. Don't you agree?

[Beacool]

261. This, in spades.

They don't seem to realize that the more they scrape the bottom of the barrel, the more they tick-off Hillary supporters and the less their chances of winning them over. No one is going to switch sides over some post about her supposed "lies" or about Monica. These types of low brow posts only serve the purpose of angering Hillary supporters, they are counterproductive.

I will vote for Sanders in the unlikely event that he were to become the nominee, but I will hold my nose and bowels while doing so. And that's more a reflection of his supporters than of Sanders himself.

[underthematrix]

266. Here's my 1 1/2 cents

I don't follow any of the DEM candidates but I have read their policy agendas and all three focus on core democratic values. So that part is all good. What's the difference? Style and execution. Some will ask, are you crazy? what about substantive differences? Bernie voted against the war in Iraq while Hillary voted for it. That would matter if we had time travel. Hillary has a lot of Wall Street friends, while Bernie does not. But if Bernie becomes the Dem nominee, Wall Street will do everything it can to get him elected. Why? because DEM presidents are good for the economy. When it comes to foreign policy, a Bernie or Hillary administration will do what they need to do to protect American lives and the country we all love. Even if it varies from what they said on the stump. The DEM nominee won't know what's possible until she or he starts getting national security briefings and only the nominee gets those.

With that said, there is a MOST QUALIFIED DEM candidate and a BEST DEM candidate and they're not the same people.

For the primary, I'm going to cast my vote for the BEST candidate. However, in the general, I'm casting a STRAIGHT, also known as a DEEP BLUE ballot no matter who's at the top of the ticket; Hillary, Bernie or O'Malley. Don't care.

While retaining the Presidency is everything, we also need to give the new DEM president the support she or he needs to get things done. The down ticket races are extremely important - US house and senate, govs, state houses and senate, SOS and AGs. This is where you need to vote deep blue.

I know everyone has primary fever right now but please don't lose sight of the prize - DEM president, DEM controlled Congress, DEM govs and DEM state houses.

[cherokeeprogressive]

271. Bernie Supporters are the #1 reason I fucking SUPPORT Bernie.

Hillary Clinton Supporters are the #2 reason.

[Sheepshank]

272. 100 % agreed. K/R

Nothing more to say.

[Blue_In_AK]

274. Gotta hand it to you, MaggieD

You're really on a roll. A flame-bait thread or two a day. Good job! I guess you have a reputation to uphold.

Carry on...

[TSIAS]

275. I'll bet you'd like us to respond in kind

But as bad as you and a handful of HRC supporters behave on this site, it won't change my intentions on voting for president in 2016.

[villager]

276. "Your tactics are backfiring, IMO"

Yup.

[akbacchus_BC]

277. So you support a candidate based on how Mr. Sanders supporters

behave on DU, that is ridiculous!

[Leftyforever]

278. Don't care who you vote for Maggie

MaggieD ...wake up... you are supporting a Democrat in name only...

[Agschmid]

281. ...

Ellipses I see...

[Gloria]

282. I got A fundraisng email from Sanders

A few days ago...whrn I unsubscribed from the list, I gave as my reason various qualities of his supporters, specifically here at DU.

[Bradical79]

284. I just don't care anymore

I mean, the whole anti-Obama birther movement originated with some idiotic Clinton supporters. Didn't stop me from voting for Clinton in the primary and it won't stop me from voting for her in the general should she win.

Even though it's hard sometimes, I try to not let the dishonesty, political innuendo, and bigotry of some die hard supporters have that great an effect on my rational decision making. I'm still voting Clinton in the general despite all the crap I've seen her supporters write/say.

I've heard racist things said by Bernie supporters, Clinton supporters, and even come across some people who liked Trump and Clinton, or Trump and Sanders. Why? Fuck if I know. Shit's getting weird out there.

[Betty Karlson]

287. Is this a PUMA threat? Little early for those, don't you think?

Unless Clinton is planning to concede one or more defeats...

[Nonhlanhla]

288. I generally find some Bernie supporters off-putting

...especially those who threaten to not vote for Hillary in the general if she is the nominee.

I am disappointed to see a Hillary supporter pull the same stunt. I have enjoyed some of your other posts, OP, but not this one.

The real enemy are the Republicans. They will continue their control of the House and the Senate for the foreseeable future. Our only hope in preventing them from complete control is a Democratic president taking over from Obama in 2017. If there is no one in the White House to veto their repeals of the ACA, their defunding of PP, and whatever else they come up with, then the Tea Party will de facto rule this country (since the Tea Party is in fact now in control of the GOP).

And people will suffer.

So even if the Democratic nominee is Mickey Mouse, I will crawl over broken glass to go vote for him, in order to prevent Tea Party control over the United States.

[Capt. Obvious]

292. Fascinating

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5132956

[dmosh42]

293. I can only hope you'll be ok by your 40th year of voting. I have never voted mindlessly for any....

candidate and that goes to 1962. That's why there are primaries and not appointments, so the differences can be voiced and the preference be made by the party voters.

[MaggieD]

294. I don't vote "mindlessly"

But thanks for the insult to kick my thread.

[chervilant]

297. hmm...

Call it a principled stand if you will.

Nope, I wouldn't call it a "principled stand." More like "pot meet kettle." A measurable contingent of Hillary supporters are routinely as bad as you've accused Bernie supporters (as a whole?) of being, and I've read quite a few responses on DU wherein a Hillary supporter avers that they will "never support Bernie!"

Oh, wait...

I can tell you that I have had enough of the "so and so's supporters are the reason" and "I'll never support so and so," from every single DUer whose time and energy is misspent on accusing and deriding, rather than researching and substantiating why we might support ANY Democratic candidate over the Confederacy of Dunces in the Republican Clown Car.

So, as has been my solution to eliminating the hateful, the insulting, and the banal, I am adding you to my IL. I can only hope that, if Bernie is our party's candidate, you will find it in your partisan heart to vote for him, and not a Republican.

[SwampG8r]

298. +1 for

Confederacy of dunces reference

[RedCappedBandit]

301. What if he wins the democratic nomination?

[randys1]

302. Then you are just as wrong as the you know who's....

[Heddi]

305. I wonder if you'll get the Manny treatment for admitting you won't for vote for him in the GE

somehow I doubt it.

See, at DU, it's perfectly okay to say you won't vote for the Democratic Nominee in the general election, but it's TOTALLY BANNABLE if you say you won't vote for the Democratic Nominee in the general election