Bernie should have never spoke at Liberty University. Bigots should be shunned, not legitimized.

[Cali_Democrat]

Some of you may recall Bernie Sanders spoke at Liberty University a few months ago in an attempt to build bridges with evangelicals.

Here's a photo of Bernie Sanders with Jerry Falwell Jr when he spoke at Liberty University:



Well...

------------------------------

Hillary Clinton Accuses Jerry Falwell Jr. Of Aiding ISIS

When Liberty University President Jerry Falwell Jr. declared Friday that if more Americans could carry concealed guns "we could end those Muslims," he was aiding terrorism, Hillary Clinton alleged Sunday morning.

Falwell, the son of the late religious right leader Jerry Falwell Sr., made the remark at Liberty University's weekly convocation while discussing the mass shooting in San Bernardino, California, the deadliest attack in the U.S. in three years which left 14 dead.

"I’ve always thought that if more good people had concealed-carry permits, then we could end those Muslims before they walked in and killed them," he said.

Though Falwell later sought to clarify his comment to various news outlets by stating that he meant to refer to terrorists, rather than all Muslims, Clinton jumped on his original statement to accuse him of helping terrorists such as the so-called Islamic State (also known as ISIS, ISIL and Daesh).

"This is the kind of deplorable, not only hateful, response to a legitimate security issue but it is giving aid and comfort to ISIS and other radical jihadists," the former secretary of state and current Democratic presidential front-runner said on ABC's "This Week with George Stephanopoulos."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/hillary-clinton-jerry-falwell-isis_5664540de4b079b2818efc6e

[hrmjustin]

1. No he should not have but I don't blame him for trying.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

2. WoW

When Liberty University President Jerry Falwell Jr. declared Friday that if more Americans could carry concealed guns "we could end those Muslims...

Those comments are worse than anything Donald trump has advocated...Even he shies away from advocating genocide.

[Cali_Democrat]

46. Yep.

It's clear Jerry Falwell Jr. was advocating genocide against Muslims.

People like him should be shunned.

[BlueCheese]

3. I was disappointed Sanders went there.

I know in his mind he was trying to bring his message to some people who might not support him. But his appearance there gives them credibility and propaganda value. Now they can put his picture on their website and brochures, and tell everyone what an open-minded institution they are.

[AgingAmerican]

94. He made them look like fools

Try watching it first.

[daleanime]

4. So the act of speaking to someone some how.....

"legitimizes" them.

So does that mean I validate your existence? You are because I talk to you?

[BlueCheese]

10. Yes, it does.

When a highly respected public figure such as Bernie Sanders visits a school, it confers a substantial amount of legitimacy.

[AgingAmerican]

95. You didn't watch it obviously

[BlueCheese]

97. I did watch it.

I liked the content of what he said, as I usually do.

However, I'm sure we all agree there are some groups that nobody should ever address-- the Ku Klux Klan, for example. And there are groups that everyone should feel free addressing-- the Democratic National Convention, for example. Somewhere in between is Liberty University. I don't think places and people like Jerry Falwell, Jr. should benefit from the legitimacy that a highly respected person like Bernie Sanders automatically gives them. Don't you think they'll be using his appearance as a political shield from now on? How bad can we be-- even Bernie Sanders came and gave us a talk?

Having said all that, I don't think it's that big a deal either way. Among issues in this campaign and in politics, this is a very minor one.

[Live and Learn]

13. I am taking her advice and shunning the original post. nt

[Segami]

23. They so believe that....

Then why did Hillary place herself on the same stage publicly supporting and validating a war criminal with affection?

As a democrat, was this necessary? She thinks so.

[Thinkingabout]

29. Hooking up with Liberty University and Jerry Falwell Jr is not even in the same class as making an

Appearance at the same occasion as Kissenger who just happened to have been SOS before Clinton. Just as presidents have gotten together for engagements.

[Segami]

33. LOL!....

Please stop.....I'm choking on that line of defense.

[Thinkingabout]

36. I am glad you posted showing tbe relationship and now I have something

To relate to in the future.

[Segami]

40. Oh, you must mean

that I don't support a flawed, hypocritical candidate like you do?

Knock yourself out and keep building your files.

In the meantime, I will play some calming music for you.

I will go acoustic today

[Thinkingabout]

42. I did not say that and do not need my post rewritten.

[cui bono]

37. And no where NEAR in the same calss as this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=879230

I'm sure you SLAMMED Obama and Clinton for all of that. Mm-hmm...

.

[pangaia]

76. Another brilliant post.

Thank you...

The more the better!!

[Scuba]

106. She praised this war criminal on multiple occasions. Bernie didn't praise Liberty U.

[dogknob]

119. It's, like, literally, soooo different. Kissinger luuuvs progressives.

Like Salvador Allende.

[stevenleser]

111. I must have missed your defense of my appearances on conservative media

But I'm bookmarking this for the next time I get knuckleheaded criticisms. I'm sure you will be right along to defend me.

[daleanime]

114. As long as you're in opposition I've got your back....

if you're singing the Hallelujah with the Chorus all bets are off.

[MineralMan]

5. I think Bernie Sanders should speak where he pleases.

It's his choice. Liberty University and Jerry Falwell, Jr., however are pretty much pure evil. Fomenting violence against Muslims is so far beyond the pale and has so little relationship to what Christianity should be that I discount every word from him.

Bernie did fine in that speech, however I'm sure it had no impact on the students who attended. They have been corrupted by fundamentalist Christian rhetoric already. They are lost causes, as far as I'm concerned. Sanders would do better by choosing his engagements more carefully.

[Bluenorthwest]

14. Yeah, have you met college aged people? Liberty students are like all the rest, persons in progress

There are many LGBT students there, for example. How do you think that happens? I have a good deal of experience in this area and no young person is a lost cause.
To be very close to home honest, I have known people in their 60's who professed horrible anti gay sentiments who even at that advanced age managed to grow and to change. I know you have met such persons as well.

[peacebird]

31. Why? Only speak to those who agree with you? That is silly, MM, I expect better from you.

Challenging those whose views differ by presenting your perspective in their backyard is honorable & a valuable trait. He did not pander in that speech, he clearly called out where there would likely never be agreement, but went on to say there are many areas where we can find common ground.

This is statemanship. Honest & straightforward.

[Kentonio]

62. It affected at least one Liberty alumi

There was a podcast the guy did afterwards describing how hearing a 'wild eyed Jew' reminding them of looking out for the poor made him think of Moses, and made him realize how far astray they had become. It was a strange thing to listen to, but the guy seemed extremely passionate. Worth checking out if you get a few minutes free.

[NorthCarolina]

66. Hey MM, reading through

your post you mentioned being sure Bernie made "no impact" with the students...and perhaps you're right. However, here is a good read penned by a Liberty University alumni that may give you some reason to question your belief that no impact was made.

Hi my name is Jim. I am the guy who recently posted onto Reddit under the Sanders4President Subreddit that I’m a Liberty University Alumni, and that I support Bernie, and think that he’s a good spokesman for justice.

I thought I would take a second to, sort of, unpack that, because I could tell there’s a lot of people, both Evangelical conservative folk and more liberal Bernie-supporting folk, who are very confused that I could occupy both worlds. So, I thought, I’ll take a few seconds and explain myself, and maybe that will be helpful for the conversation.

So a little bit about me. I am not a current student at Liberty. If I was, I actually wouldn’t have been able to post onto that Reddit board and say that I’m supporting Bernie. There is an Honor Code at Liberty University, and while it’s not always enforced, if you support a candidate who is pro-choice or pro-gay marriage, you can be punished by the University, up to and including expulsion from the school. So as a graduate of Liberty University, I’m in a good position to represent folks that might go there and people from the Evangelical tradition, but not be within the world that they can, you know, punish me for my opinion.

So I got my Bachelors degree in Religion from Liberty University, and I also got my Masters degree from Liberty University in Marriage and Family Therapy. In 2004 I worked for the George W. Bush campaign. I spent about 8 years as a Conservative pastor. And also as a schoolteacher at a conservative Christian academy. And today I serve my community as a therapist and also a pastoral counselor, somebody that folks from churches might go see to get counseling whenever they want to see somebody who’s both a clinical counselor but also a pastor.

So I serve all those roles. I think I’m pretty much a card-carrying Evangelical Christian. I still subscribe to a conservative evangelical theology. And what that means, a lot of people get confused when they hear the word ‘conservative,’ they assume you mean politically. ‘Conservative theology’ means that I believe the Bible is trustworthy, I think that God inspired it, Jesus was absolutely real, and really died on the cross, and really did resurrect three days later; and I am an Evangelical Christian in that way.

So, how did I come to find myself supporting Bernie Sanders? How did that evolution take place? How could it be that in 2004 I was working for the George W. Bush campaign, and today in 2015, as a double Liberty University graduate, under Jerry Falwell—when I went to school, Jerry Falwell was the Chancellor—how is it that I could be now supporting Bernie Sanders, who’s a very progressive, very liberal guy; he describes himself as a ‘democratic socialist.’ How do I find common ground on those two things?

Well a lot of people I think falsely believe that in order to do that you have to give up one of your sides. Either you have to not really be a progressive, and you’re just an Evangelical who just likes Bernie, or you have to not really be an Evangelical, and just secretly be a Progressive who’s faking it and pretending to be an Evangelical, but wouldn’t actually pass the litmus test of being an Evangelical.

I pass both tests, I am very much 100% legitimate in both camps, and I want to explain why that’s not a mythological thing, that’s not a disconnect. Some people call that a contradiction, or hypocrisy, it is absolutely not. I believe that my views are 100% consistent. And so I think that the shock value for that comes in beginning to appreciate that the Bible and Jesus, in my opinion and in my very moderate reading of the Bible and the words of Christ, leads us to a Progressive worldview. And that is shocking to a lot of people, especially folks back home in the Evangelical community, they hear that and go, “What are you talking about? That’s heresy—“ it’s like, hold on. Hear me out. There is a Biblical argument for voting for Bernie Sanders, believe it or not, and I’m gonna walk you through it really quick on some key issues.

So that first issue that I’d kind of point your attention to is kind of what Bernie brought up during his speech at Liberty. Basically, the wealth inequality problem—and see a lot of us, on the Evangelical side think that what Jesus really cares about is gay marriage and abortion. And of course, the great irony is if you read the red letters of Jesus, there are no statements on abortion. There are no statements on gay marriage. Now, that’s not to say the Bible doesn’t speak about these things, but it certainly is to say that Jesus, founder and master of our faith, did not see fit to make these high-priority topics. It’s not to say he doesn’t care. But it is to say that we need to be careful not to ‘major on minors.’ We should be focused on the things Jesus did talk about.

So what did Jesus talk about?

So here’s the interesting thing. When I was watching Bernie Sanders talk at Liberty University, I was just really shocked, and something kind of magical happened for me, because as I watched that guy stand up on that stage, here’s what I saw. I saw a wild-haired Jew crying out in a hoarse voice, in a very forceful and forth-speaking way, he was convicting the Christian leaders and religious leaders in that University and calling us out for being complicit in the abandonment of those who suffer: “The least of these.” And siding with the powerful and the rich and the masters of this world. And he was convicting us, and calling us out. And we scorned him, and we stared him down, and with sour faces we thought, “Who is this whacko? And why do all these people seem to follow him, seem to like him? This wild-haired Jew, crying out from the wilderness of the political Left, in his hoarse voice?”

And if you’re an Evangelical listening to me today, you already know where I’m going with this. When I heard Bernie speaking in that way, when I saw that guy on stage at Liberty University, I saw John the Baptist. I saw the wild-haired, roughly-clothed John the Baptist, eating honey and wearing camel’s hair, and crying out to the religious leaders, the Pharisees of his day, calling them corrupt and complicit with those who have all the power and all the money and all the wealth, and for abandoning the people that God loves, that God cares about. For the Pharisees, who were siding with those who already have power and wealth and saying that they will be the last in the Kingdom of God, and that the weak, and the meek, and the simple, and those who need help—they are first in the Kingdom of God.

And I saw that guy, that John the Baptist figure, who is standing up and saying “There is coming a messenger, there is coming a messenger who will bring equity and justice to the poor, and to the weak, and who will stand for ’the least of these.’” That’s the wild-haired Jew that I saw up on that stage. I saw, and felt, the same voice coming from the Bible when I read about John the Baptist, who cried out in the desert to the Pharisees, warning them that Jesus was coming, the messenger of God. And that he was coming to restore justice, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor, and to value ’the least of these’ when the Pharisees had failed.

And as I heard Bernie talking, and as I listened to his cries for justice, I remembered, suddenly, what Jesus had actually said in the Book of Luke, when he unravels the scroll in the synagogue, and he quotes the Book of Isaiah, which says that the Son of God was coming. And then he says, “This has been fulfilled in your presence here today.” He quotes the book of Isaiah which says that the Son of God is coming to bring justice, and Jesus says “it is now come to pass in your presence.” And he says, “I have come to bring Gospel to the poor.”

Gospel—is that word we Evangelical Christians have based everything on. Gospel means ‘good news.’ And Jesus said “I have come to bring good news to the poor.” To restore sight to the blind, to stand with the suffering, to set the captives free, and to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.

Whoa.

As I heard Bernie Sanders crying out to the religious leaders at Liberty University, in his hoarse voice, with his wild hair, this Jew, and he proclaimed justice over us. He called us to account for being complicit with those who are wealthy and those who are powerful and for abandoning the poor, ‘the least of these’ who Jesus said he had come to bring good news to. And in that moment, something occurred to me, as I saw Bernie Sanders up there, as I watched him I realized: Bernie Sanders, for President, is good news for the poor. Bernie Sanders for President is good news for the poor. Bernie Sanders is Gospel for the poor. And Jesus said, “I have come to bring Gospel—good news—to the poor.”

And lightning hit my heart in that moment. And I realized that we are Evangelical Christians, that we believe the Bible. We believe in Jesus. We absolutely shun those who attempt to find nuance and twisted and tortured interpretation of scripture that they would use to master all other broader interpretations, to find some kind of big message that they want to flout. We absolutely scorn such things. And yet somehow, we commit to the mental gymnastics necessary that allows us to abandon ‘the least of these,’ to abandon the poor, to abandon the immigrants, to abandon those who are in prison. I listened to Bernie Sanders, as he said he wanted to welcome the immigrants and give them dignity. As he said he wanted to care for the sick children, and mothers, and fathers, who do not have health care. As he said he wanted to decrease the amount of human beings who are corralled like cattle in the prisons. As he said he wanted to do justice for those who have nothing and live homeless. And I remembered the words of Jesus, who warned his disciples that there will be judgment, and on that day he will look to his friends, and he will say ‘Blessed are you, for you cared for me, for I was naked and you clothed me; I was sick, and you cared for me; I was hungry, and you fed me; I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink; I was in prison, and you came to visit me; I was homeless, and you gave me shelter.” And the disciples said, “Jesus, when did we do any of those things for you?” And he said, “If you have done it for ‘the least of these,’ you have done it for me.”

And those words echoed in my heart. As I listened to that crazy, hoarse-voiced, wild-haired Jew, standing in front of the religious leaders of the Evangelical movement, calling us to account, as a Jew once did before. Telling us that he intends to care for ‘the least of these.’ To clothe the naked, to shelter the homeless, to care for the sick, to set the prisoners free.

Yes. I am an Evangelical Christian. I believe in the Bible. I follow Jesus. When I look at Bernie Sanders, and I hear the things that he’s saying, it’s like he’s ripping them out of the pages of scripture. I would have to try to avoid the meaning of those words. I would have to bury my head in the sand to continue to support conservative policies. I am religiously conservative but I am not politically so. And I think here is the heart and soul of it:

When we chose to follow Jesus, we decided that the Kingdom of God, and the men and women and children of this world, were more important than us. And that accidentally made us all liberals. The day we decided to follow Christ, and the day we decided that we value other human beings more than ourselves, we accidentally became liberals.

And so there is no contradiction between being a Bible-believing Christian and a Bernie Sanders supporter.

I follow the teachings of Christ: to care for ‘the least of these.’ And I believe that just as John the Baptist once cried out in the desert for justice, and called the religious establishment to account, and hearkened unto the day that Jesus would walk among us, and declare equity and justice and good news for the poor; and just as that day came, that Jesus stood in front of the multitudes at the religious institution and said “I have come to bring gospel to the poor,” I believe that Bernie Sanders now stands in front of us, wild-haired and hoarse-voiced, and he now declares justice for the poor. He declares good news for ‘the least of these.’ He has come to bring gospel. And I wouldn’t be much of a Christian if I didn’t stand on the side of gospel for the poor. Because the last time I checked, that’s where my master Jesus stood, and I’ll stand with him. And for now, that means I stand with Bernie Sanders.
https://www.reddit.com/r/SandersForPresident/comments/3l4khz/transcript_of_biblical_argument_for_bernie_by_jim/

Limiting who we talk to is a huge mistake. You don't change hearts and minds by not reaching out.

[AgingAmerican]

96. The students who attended said he made a huge impact on them

[MannyGoldstein]

6. I'm thrilled that Bernie's doing so well that

you find need to try to bludgeon him with this nonsense.

[AtomicKitten]

7. Nonsense. He was changing hearts and minds while remaining constant. <nt>

[BlueCaliDem]

47. Hah!

[senz]

57. Precisely, but

some, apparently, haven't the intelligence to see it or, if they see it, the honesty to admit it.

Bernie's speech to L.U. focused on what our country has allowed to happen to its have-nots -- who, in Christian parlance, are "the least of these" and, therefore, Christ himself.

Some L.U. students spoke out afterwards saying that Bernie had opened their eyes to this problem and how much they appreciated his honest, straightforward delivery.

That is a huge plus for Bernie.

This OP is a sad little attempt at a smear.

[AtomicKitten]

85. Hillary has zero crossover appeal which is why she'd lose the general election.

Bernie has broader appeal and is cultivating that looking ahead. He is already polling as the strongest general election candidate for the Democrats. I don't expect silly people to understand that. They are showing the same haughtiness and poor sportsmanship as they and the candidate they support did last time.

[Bluenorthwest]

8. Ted Kennedy went there when Jerry was alive. Obama hired bigoted preachers for rallies he controlled

he did not merely to meet with some bigots, he staffed up on the bigots in order to please other bigots. Hillary Clinton as well as Obama have made repeated trips to Rick Warren's Mega Church, Hillary's verbiage from that outing is full of praise for Rick Warren and lots of language identifying herself and his congregation as 'we' and gay people as 'they' and all of the language designed to excuse the wretched behavior of much of the faith community during the early days of AIDS.
I could go on and on and on. Rick Warren, days before Obama rewarded him with the Inaugural position, went on camera and equated all gay couples to incest and pedophilia. Then Obama called him 'America's minister' and 'my brother and friend' and you, the Party and the new administration all bowed your heads and prayed with that hand selected bigot.

So it's far too late for this. None of the other ever apologized for appearing with the man who said 'they are vampires, they are trying to kill our children, this is war and the gloves must come off'. If I had to accept that, then going to Liberty and not pandering at all but defending the good, that's more than fine with me it is what has to be done to counter the pandering of those other, more biased politicians.

[cui bono]

35. +1 Well said. n/t

[Bluenorthwest]

39. The OP will not discuss the facts, just wants to exploit the subject matter for bashing rhetoric

Supremely uncool.

[cui bono]

41. Yep, no replies from them, not surprisingly.

S/he does this shit all the time, as do the other smearmongerers. Just make shit up out of thin air in an attempt to bring a good man down. But there is no valid reason for any true Democrat to choose Hillary over Bernie since he is the best candidate for the people based on issues, so they have to take pot shots.

That's okay, stupid OPs like this just make them look desperate and show the grasping they have to resort to.

.

[senz]

67. Let us not forget Hillary's relationship to "The Family."

Barbara Ehrenreich wrote of it here...

http://www.alternet.org/story/80248/hillary's_ties_to_religious_fundamentalists

Referring to Jeff Sharlet's exposé, she writes

Sharlet generously attributes Clinton's involvement to the underappreciated depth of her religiosity, but he himself struggles to define the Family's theological underpinnings. The Family avoids the word Christian but worships Jesus, though not the Jesus who promised the earth to the "meek." They believe that, in mass societies, it's only the elites who matter, the political leaders who can build God's "dominion" on earth. Insofar as the Family has a consistent philosophy, it's all about power -- cultivating it, building it and networking it together into ever-stronger units, or "cells." "We work with power where we can," Doug Coe has said, and "build new power where we can't."

Bernie is SO CLEAN of rightwing fundamentalist associations, while Hillary is utterly contaminated with them.

[pangaia]

82. Has anyone asked Clinton about her connection to these people?

[KoKo]

92. That's Not All Hillary has to Account for: Bush Advisor James Baker & Hillary Yucking it Up

James Baker and Hillary Laughing it up in Charlie Rose Interview about War with Iran:

(UNBELIVEABLE) Hillary Clinton laughs about possible war against iran

[ljm2002]

68. [phone]!!!! n/t

[840high]

83. Yes!

[treestar]

108. so Bernie is bad for doing this too then right?

[Chan790]

9. Disagree.

It is never wrong to go into the base of your opposition, tell them why they are wrong, remain resolute to your values and leave with a few converts to your POV.

I wouldn't support Clinton going to Liberty but that's because they'd tell her she was wrong, she'd synthesize their values into her platform in order to try to attract their votes and end up converted on a few move issues to their POV.

[BlueCheese]

12. Respectfully, isn't that a double standard?

If it's okay for one candidate, shouldn't it be okay for another?

[Chan790]

15. No, because outcomes matter.

Sanders went there and converted opponents into supporters.

Clinton would go then and shift her positions to appeal to those opponents in order to attract their support.

Only one moves their positions to attempt to synthesize their audience into their camp...and that one shouldn't ever go near an audience that will move them even further from the Democratic party base.

[BlueCheese]

16. I understand your point...

However, I do think it's unfair to preemptively criticize Clinton for something she hasn't even done, because of what you think she'd do.

[jeff47]

87. She isn't a blank sheet of paper. She has a lengthy history.

And in that history, she has "triangulated" many times. There's little reason to think she has suddenly stopped.

[Bluenorthwest]

25. Hillary Clinton at Saddleback Church:

"And first, [applause] let me first say how relieved Bill and I were to hear that Saddleback was spared from the recent wildfires - and how impressed and moved we were to hear about the love and support that you gave those who were not so fortunate.

It's another example of the way in which this church is not measured by numbers. Yes, the numbers are big, they're certainly impressive. But it's measured by your impact. It's measured by the meaning that you give to lives here within this complex and so far beyond its boundaries. And the commitment that you demonstrate both to our faith in God and to doing His work here on earth is exemplary and that is one of the many reasons that I wanted to be here today.

You know, Rick has helped so many people with his lessons for a 40-day spiritual journey. But he knows those 40 days are just the beginning...."
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=77080

""I'm opposed to redefinition of a 5,000-year definition of marriage. I'm opposed to having a brother and sister being together and calling that marriage. I'm opposed to an older guy marrying a child and calling that marriage. I'm opposed to one guy having multiple wives and calling that marriage."- Rick Warren

[peacebird]

28. Exactly..... Expect crickets from those outraged that Bernie spoke at Liberty - acknowledging that

Their views and his were very different, but not bending his message to pander to them at all.

[Bluenorthwest]

38. Bernie's opening at Liberty, for comparison:

"Thank you, President Falwell and David. Thank you very much for inviting my wife, Jane, and me to be with you even this morning. We appreciate the invitation very much.

And let me start off by acknowledging what I think all of you already know. And that is the views that many here at Liberty University have and I, on a number of important issues, are very, very different. I believe in a woman's rights....

And the right of a woman to control her own body.

I believe gay rights and gay marriage.

Those are my views, and it is no secret. But I came here today, because I believe from the bottom of my heart that it is vitally important for those of us who hold different views to be able to engage in a civil discourse.

Too often in our country -- and I think both sides bear responsibility for us -- there is too much shouting at each other. There is too much making fun of each other."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/09/14/bernie-sanders-liberty-university-speech-annotated/

[cui bono]

43. You should make your comparison an OP.

It shows so clearly the difference between the two.

.

[peacebird]

63. Agree!

[notadmblnd]

18. Would you support her being a member of a secretive religous group known as "The Fellowship?

whos members include Rich Santorum and Sam Brownbeck?

[Chan790]

21. No.

I am aware of The Fellowship and I think they've pretty much shit. I was aware she was a member but with so many other things to loathe Clinton for, it was par for my expectations of her.

[BlueCaliDem]

50. Well, at least the students at Liberty "University" and Sanders are like-minded on guns.

But I don't think that's a good thing.

[Scootaloo]

11. Desperation is a good look on you, Cali_Democrat.

[MissDeeds]

20. Yep

But it does get tiresome.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

17. Did you criticize Hillary for praying at C-Street?

For 15 years, Hillary Clinton has been part of a secretive religious group that seeks to bring Jesus back to Capitol Hill.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2007/09/hillarys-prayer-hillary-clintons-religion-and-politics



Of course not.

[immoderate]

19. Should Bernie only speak to people who agree with him?

Didn't Obama visit a prison recently?

--imm

[peacebird]

22. So you think we should refuse to speak with those whose views differ from our own?

Where or how would dipomacy or progress be made if we followed that idea?

[cui bono]

34. This is akin to all the rightwing nutjobs being outraged that Obama bowed to whoever that was...

I forget. And omg!!! Obama is negotiating with Iranians!!! He should just shun them. Then they can build their nuclear bomb and wreak havoc on the world. Yes, that's a much better way of doing things!

What a joke.

.

[TheBlackAdder]

74. Just look at how GWB shunned leaders he didn't agree with. This is a GWB/GOP suggestion. nt

[Jim Lane]

24. Does the same standard apply to Hillary Clinton's (highly paid) speeches to Wall Street banksters?

OK, they aren't notable as bigots. They're merely thieves who crashed our entire economy.

The people to whom Clinton has made speeches have, collectively, done far more evil than has Liberty University.

[cantbeserious]

26. Your Opinion Only - Others See The World Differently

eom

[Bluenorthwest]

27. I see the OP lacks the respect for others to discuss the subject.

nt

[jeff47]

88. The OP has many drive-by posts. (nt)

[MeNMyVolt]

109. According to one person on this board (^^^)...

..."No, that happens about half the time. It is not at all uncommon for an OP to not respond to replies." He didn't mention anything about lack of respect.

[Bluenorthwest]

118. No I am the one that noted the disrespectful lack of response from the OP.

And now I repeat it, the OP does not respect the subject matter nor the persons must involved with it.

[jkbRN]

30. The only way you will ever change minds

Is to speak to them and to have an open dialogue. To shut a community off because of a comment that their university president made is inane.

[cui bono]

32. What utter bullshit.

Not that this deserves a legitimate response but....

Sanders did not pander to the group. He spoke his mind and they appreciated him. This is how you bring people over to your side, you talk to them without pandering.

How you try to connect some random dots to what Falwell said and what Hillary said about him to Sanders not speaking at the university is an epic fail. Sanders in no way agrees with that nor did he say he did. He is trying to change minds. You can't change minds by speaking to the choir. There are many issues where the right and the left agree and he is trying to get people to see that so Republicans will stop voting against their own interest. That's what we all say we want and can't understand, isn't it?

So if he can get people to see that it is the working class against the 1% and if the working class voted together for someone who was against the 1% - Sanders, not Clinton since she is in bed with them - then EVERYONE would be better off and be able to live a more comfortable life.

I can see why you are threatened by his speaking there though. They did not shout him down, they listened and applauded him. Something I doubt Hillary could get from them, though she might get it from the banksters, who are the very people who are ruining this country for the rest of us.

.

[democrank]

44. I honestly can`t hold myself back any longer.

Bernie Sanders didn`t "legitimize" bigots by speaking at Liberty University. He did what more in this party should do. Get the heck away from the handlers and image-makers in Washington and start a conversation elsewhere, where you might be able to make a difference.....or change someone`s mind....or make someone think.

[Kalidurga]

45. Young people like Bernie better

I know it's hard to accept, but you can with the help of your friends get over this. I heard the speech and the young people applauded him several times. In fact they seemed to like him much better than Ted Cruz who they barely responded to except to post snark on Twitter.

[Matariki]

48. Reaching out and finding common ground sure beats Pandering.

Pandering, in the sense of saying whatever will get you elected with little intention of following through on anything but your rich friends' agendas.

[saltpoint]

49. Sanders' address at Liberty was

an excellent address.

The job Senator Sanders is applying for is one that needs to represent all citizens, including those with whom Senator Sanders disagrees.

His audience was required to attend the address. Word from campus that evening indicated that students listened respectfully. Sanders emphasized moral concerns everyone held commonly as opposed to disagreements on specific issues, such as reproductive rights.

I consider the Liberty address by Bernie Sanders to be one of the healthiest ways to foster political dialogue.

[Matariki]

51. Excellent response to a terrible OP

[saltpoint]

52. Hi, Matariki...

...and thank you.

[dgibby]

53. Haven't you ever heard of missionary work? n/t

[Doctor_J]

54. Then why do Clinton supporters post articles from progressivestoday?

Here

[Hoyt]

55. I'm fine with him going, but he should have scolded them not to grow up ignorant, white wing racists

[OnyxCollie]

56. Please post your criticism of Obama for appearing on Fox News/Bill O'Reilly.

Thanks.

[brooklynite]

58. Perhaps Bernie Sanders could be troubled to comment on Falwell's comments?

Like Hillary Clinton has?

[BlueCaliDem]

60. Hasn't he condemned Junior's hateful remarks yet? What's taking him so long?

[NorthCarolina]

59. I call bullshit. He SHOULD have spoke there and I'm damn glad he did.

It's called building bridges, and in this case it is building bridges with the uninformed. He was speaking to the STUDENTS there and he did a damn fine job. Perhaps instead of ridiculing something you never watched just because you don't like Bernie or "Libruls", you should take the time to watch it and educate yourself.

These repeated stupid attacks on Sanders through any avenue imaginable are pathetic.

[leftofcool]

65. Building bridges while they call for the heads of Muslims?

Okay.

[ljm2002]

71. 2 quick questions...

...to wit:

1 - When did Bernie make his speech at Liberty U?

2 - When did Falwell make his remarks about "ending Muslims"?

[leftofcool]

72. Timelines matter on bigotry?

okay.

[ljm2002]

73. You said, and I quote:

"Building bridges while they call for the heads of Muslims?"

while, in this context, means "during the same time".

Simply untrue.

Also: I assume you were equally outraged about the high profile given Rick Warren by Barack Obama, and the praise heaped upon him by Hillary Clinton when visiting his church. Yeah, sure.

[TheBlackAdder]

61. Not for nothing, but that suggestion came out of the GWB playbook. One that worked, Oh! So well!

.


The opposition is a party to court, else they remain in their own little bubble.

That is why Pres. Obama goes on FOX News every so often, or why John Stewart and Bill O. frequented each other.


To make a statement that speaking to those who the antithesis is tantamount to legitimizing their viewpoints is not only stupid, but it is why we had so many problems under GWB that remained unresolved. Remember, the GOP was bashing Obama for thawing the icy bridges he had closed. Now, you want to return to that GWB mindset? I'm sure there are posts in your past that attacked the Republicans for bashing Obama's outreach program.


Courting, discourse, exchange are things that melt the barriers of misunderstanding and expose institutional lies.

Fencing does nothing good!


.

[stevenleser]

113. I couldn't agree more, and I am a Clinton supporter.

But somehow many folks criticizing the OP have voiced a completely opposite tune in the recent past.

[AZ Progressive]

64. Nice try Hillary supporters

[MaggieD]

69. Agreed

[katsy]

70. Legislatures, political candidates should address everyone.

All policy decisions and laws should never ever benefit bigotry.

Open communication. Get racists/bigots out of office for better legislative results.

If we do not reach out to the children of these monsters and break thru the misinformation they've grown up with, where does that leave us long term?

[MisterP]

75. he didn't pander but instead demanded that think about what it meant to behave like Christians

tantrums about Christmas trees or quoting Genesis in lunar orbit just reinforces the persecution narrative

Clinton, OTOH, is part of *the Family, where they workshopped whether the Ugandan anti-gay bill should extend to the death penalty*
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2007/09/hillarys-prayer-hillary-clintons-religion-and-politics
http://www.salon.com/2015/04/25/progressives_cant_trust_hillary_clinton_on_cultural_and_economic_issues_the_problems_are_stark_and_decades_long/
www.dailykos.com/stories/2008/4/4/466231/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fellowship_%28Christian_organization%29
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/The_Fellowship
other members include child-killer Vides Casanova and torture-murderer Alvarez Martinez (gunned down returning as a fundamentalist preacher--with a big mouth and all the files): the last one particularly fit since he was a strongman who saw himself as a messianic figure

plus there's the issue of hunky dictatorial Jesus

[Bluenorthwest]

77. Please, tell the White House: Obama and Rick Warren, from the greatest hits files....

[Fairgo]

78. Revelation

I'm sitting in a hotel in Taiwan, preparing for work that will actually make a difference. I read this, and suddenly realised that this is not my community. Thanks for all the fish!

[Turn CO Blue]

79. No scientist should ever debate climate change deniers! No scientist should engage creationists!

Bill Nye should never give the time of day top fundamentalist Christians!

Al Gore should never give a speech to a group of oil execs!!!


Your argument falls flat on its face when I add in that perspective about science-denial.

I debate creationists (politely, civilly, pointedly, but firmly) about evolution all the time. I debate fascists about leftwing ideology all the time. And yes, I would debate a bigot and present my points or give a speech to a group of bigots if I were invited.

And I'm not going to stop now just because of your logical fallacy and failure to understand why it is important to NOT cower in the dark or to NOT start a dialogue with people, even ignorant people, who hold differing viewpoints or worldviews, or who are completely wrong-headed about the scientific method or political ideology or economics etc.. I can't stand bigots, but they are going to hear our worldview because we're going to keep presenting it in one manner or another, whether they like it or not.

[99Forever]

80. Your heartfelt concern is noted.

Bless your little heart.

[DFW]

81. Keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer.

Richard Viguerie attends Renaissance Weekend every New Year. Not because he's among political friends, that's for sure. He attends because he can get a good idea of what his opposition is thinking, and he definitely gets a full dosage of it there!

How better to counter the absurd arguments of the extremist right than to plow right into their lair? I would have done the same thing, albeit with a kevlar vest and bodyguards.

[840high]

84. Cali-D - fail.

[TIME TO PANIC]

86. Why only preach to the converted?

He went into the belly of the beast, and he might have deprogrammed some of those student. Most of these people never get to hear progressive ideas that aren't spun and distorted by right-wing politicians and evangelical preachers. These kids are brainwashed from birth. Every progressive democrat should do what Bernie did.

[jeff47]

89. Because then no one asks awkward questions. It's paradise for Clinton supporters. (nt)

[TIME TO PANIC]

91. Yeah, someone might impugn their integrity.

[slipslidingaway]

105. This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ thanks

[Fawke Em]

90. Fail...

We should never lose the opportunity to enlighten a few.

There are now several Liberty students who will vote for Bernie.

[AgingAmerican]

93. You didn't watch it obviously

Bernie handed their asses to them in an irrefutable
manor while they sat there in stunned silence.

[WillyT]

98. One Of The Reasons We Find It Hard To Take You Seriously...

[Cali_Democrat]

99. At least I don't link to fascist right wing websites

[WillyT]

101. Are You Sure About That ???

[Cali_Democrat]

103. You linked to Trevor Loudin's website (Keywiki)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=868463

[mythology]

100. So you're condemning Sanders for something somebody else said long after

Sanders gave a speech at Liberty University? Is he supposed to be psychic?

Falwell is an ass and probably he can't be changed. But just like I won't condemn Bill Nye for debating Ken Ham, I'm not going to condemn Sanders for this. Trying to reach people is a good thing.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

102. It's unwise to heed the ramblings of a professional rabble rouser.

And so I don't. Go peddle your poison to someone who may be willing to give more of a fuck.

[Rebkeh]

104. I'm not sure I understand this,

he will be their President too. He shouldn't turn any invitation down. It was his call to make.

Personally I think it it's a bad look, in hindsight. But I don't think his visit legitimized them. Listen to the speech, he delegitimized some their views and did so with eloquence and class. It's not like he was trying to walk the line or appeal to their ignorance, he was straight up about who he is and what he believes. Furthermore, who knows if he would have accepted the invitation after SB? Timing/context matters.

As for the people who won't make the distinction or learn of it by watching/listening to the speech, they probably are not going to vote for him anyway.

[LexVegas]

107. Big grin. Disgusting. nt

[bigtree]

110. yep

...all it did was legitimize the university, which is Falwell's right-wing prop. Sanders supporters are fond of pointing to his 'Jesus and the moneymakers in the temple' speech which they say was worth the visit, but it's always going to be thrown in our faces like Kennedy's and Jackson's appearances there as some legitimate forum for Democrats or progressives.

The worst part was his appearance was that it came in the middle of our Democratic primary where candidates should be rallying our left wing, not flirting with conservatives.

Falwell needs to be shunned and isolated, not politically legitimized.

[stevenleser]

112. I disagree with you here. On the other hand, I recognize among your critics many who

Have criticized me (and frankly other liberals/Democrats) for going on conservative media with the exact same mission Bernie had by going to Liberty.

I agree with many of their posts, that yes, you should go to conservative churches, colleges, tv and radio media and anywhere else. It's the best opportunity to move the needle. Speaking to large crowds of conservatives and telling them why you believe differently and backing it up with facts.

But again, many folks criticizing the OP and defending Bernie have had the exact opposite opinion up until now. Bookmarking this OP for future use.

[slipslidingaway]

115. It is what you say and how you defend, or not advance a position that matters ...

Sanders told the Liberty crowd facts that were rather uncomfortable, he stood his ground and at the same time sought to advance an issue.

Others go on the Fox channel and lob softballs, there is a difference and the two cannot be defended equally. I remember watching a segment on Fox about HC and shaking my head thinking is this the Dem representative?

Please do not try and equate yourself with Sanders giving a speech at Liberty University.

Bookmarking as well.

[stevenleser]

116. A poor excuse for hypocrisy. And I love the whole

Don't equate yourself with sanders bit. He's just not that good of a speaker or advocate.

Sanders shouldn't be equated with anyone who does this on a regular basis.

[Bluenorthwest]

117. Ah the Straights explain it all....Compare and contrast...

Hillary at Saddleback Church 2007 opens with praise of Warren and Co:
"And first, let me first say how relieved Bill and I were to hear that Saddleback was spared from the recent wildfires - and how impressed and moved we were to hear about the love and support that you gave those who were not so fortunate.

It's another example of the way in which this church is not measured by numbers. Yes, the numbers are big, they're certainly impressive. But it's measured by your impact. It's measured by the meaning that you give to lives here within this complex and so far beyond its boundaries. And the commitment that you demonstrate both to our faith in God and to doing His work here on earth is exemplary and that is one of the many reasons that I wanted to be here today.

You know, Rick has helped so many people with his lessons for a 40-day spiritual journey. But he knows those 40 days are just the beginning. My own faith journey is approaching a half a century, and I know how far I still have to go."

Bernie at Liberty, opens with this:
"Thank you, President Falwell and David. Thank you very much for inviting my wife, Jane, and me to be with you even this morning. We appreciate the invitation very much.

And let me start off by acknowledging what I think all of you already know. And that is the views that many here at Liberty University have and I, on a number of important issues, are very, very different. I believe in a woman's rights....

And the right of a woman to control her own body.

I believe gay rights and gay marriage.

Those are my views, and it is no secret. But I came here today, because I believe from the bottom of my heart that it is vitally important for those of us who hold different views to be able to engage in a civil discourse."


Now I could add Obama at Rick Warren's feet, stating his deep objections to equality for LGBT, nodding along with Ricky and legitimizing hateful invective, but I'll skip that part.

Going to our opponents and advocating for me is great. Going to our opponents and pandering to them, agreeing with them and praising them, that's a whole different ballgame.