2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumBernie "isn't impressed" by the climate change agreement signed by almost 200 countries.
Last edited Tue Dec 15, 2015, 02:56 AM - Edit history (7)
Because he could have done so much better than Obama, right? He could have just scolded the diplomats of almost 200 countries till they did what he wanted.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bernie-sanders-climate-agreement_566c795ee4b0fccee16ed457?utm_hp_ref=business&ir=Business§ion=business
Bernie Sanders Isn't Too Impressed By The Historic Climate Agreement
"While this is a step forward it goes nowhere near far enough.
"Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) on Saturday criticized the global climate change accord adopted after two weeks of negotiations among diplomats in Paris, saying the agreement goes "nowhere near far enough."
The landmark 31-page agreement includes a pledge to curb climate change by reducing carbon dioxide and greenhouse gas emissions, calling on countries to support each other in adapting to the environmental challenges resulting from climate change, such as devastating droughts and rising sea levels.
Sanders said he didn't think the accord went far enough to demand action from those countries to lower carbon emissions.
"While this is a step forward it goes nowhere near far enough. The planet is in crisis. We need bold action in the very near future and this does not provide that, Sanders said in the statement.
Hillary, who actually has experience dealing with foreign leaders, IS impressed.
http://www.masslive.com/politics/index.ssf/2015/12/hillary_clinton_praises_paris.html
"The Paris agreement is testament to America's ability to lead the world in building a clean energy future where no one is left out or left behind," she said in a statement. "And it was made possible in part by every person, business owner and community in the United States and around the world that stepped up to prove we don't have to choose between growing our economy and protecting our kids' health and future - we can do both."
Clinton added that action is critical in the next decade, saying if the U.S. doesn't push to drive what she called clean energy growth, it will not be able to avoid "catastrophic consequences."
"We cannot afford to be slowed by the climate skeptics or deterred by the defeatists who doubt America's ability to meet this challenge," the former first lady stressed.
If elected president, Clinton added, she will make combating climate change a top priority.
And Martin O'Malley also praised the agreement.
http://www.wisn.com/politics/democratic-presidential-hopefuls-laud-paris-agreement/36934188
He followed up his tweet with another, writing, "Now the U.S. needs to do what it does best---lead with action. We need full transition to clean energy. #100by50 #COP21"
Backseat Bernie thinks he could have somehow magically done better than Obama.
senz
(11,945 posts)It won't hurt you to read it:
https://berniesanders.com/press-release/paris-climate-accord-goes-nowhere-near-far-enough-sanders-says/
He said it's a good start but we need to do better. If you care about the world your kids and grandkids will be living in, you should care.
And he didn't say a goddamn thing about Obama.
pnwmom
(108,994 posts)THANK YOU, President Obama for working so hard, for so many years, to finally get 200 countries to sign onto an agreement.
As flawed as it is, it's a start.
If you don't think so, please tell me when in history almost 200 diverse countries have signed an agreement that would require real SACRIFICES for future good?
senz
(11,945 posts)Maybe Bernie doesn't do enough for show, right? Perhaps he's too much cake and too little frosting, but it shouldn't be too hard for his advisers to show him how to be more flowery and less blunt. Should be easy enough to put a little more frosting on all that goodness.
I personally am very happy about the agreement. I know it doesn't go far enough, but it is wonderful to have most of the nations on earth getting together to begin to try to save this planet. I'm rather thrilled at the togetherness of the whole thing.
And I'm also kinda delighted that it's a bit of a thorn in the climate deniers' sides.
pnwmom
(108,994 posts)Obama and Kerry managed to pull it off.
It's up to everyone to put great pressure on Congress to move things along. BUT having 200 countries agree that climate change is REAL and demands sacrifice will undermine everything the Rethugs have been saying.
And that changes everything -- I hope.
senz
(11,945 posts)God knows, we needed one.
And I am very happy with the combination of Obama and Kerry. They seem to work well together, and I am glad that Kerry has found a position as engrossing and demanding of his strengths as this. I've always felt bad about the swiftboating he took from the creepos and have a sense that this job is restoring something for him.
Scuba
(53,475 posts)Read it right here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027446295
progree
(10,918 posts)Last edited Tue Dec 15, 2015, 01:15 PM - Edit history (1)
I guess. [font color = red]ON EDIT: corrected the below link[/font]
http://news.yahoo.com/india-china-saudi-arabia-happy-climate-pact-153738758.html
I wonder why?
progree
(10,918 posts)India still plans to double coal output by 2020 and rely on the resource for decades afterwards, a senior official said on Monday,
... "The environment is non-negotiable and we are extremely careful about it," Anil Swarup, the top bureaucrat in the coal ministry, told Reuters. " But) our dependence on coal will continue. There are no other alternatives available."
While India has plans to add 30 times more solar-powered generation capacity by 2022, there were limitations to clean energy and coal would remain the most efficient energy source for decades, he said.
Minister for Power, Coal and Renewable Energy, Piyush Goyal, said India's contribution to global greenhouse gases emissions was just 2.5 percent with 17 percent of the world's population, while developed countries contributed a fifth of emissions with just 5 percent of the world's population.
"While contributing to (the) growth of renewable energy, energy conservation & efficiency, we'll make sure our development process (does) not get hampered," Goyal said in a post on Twitter.
More: http://news.yahoo.com/india-push-ahead-coal-plans-paris-climate-deal-110724335--finance.html
So just a mere doubling over the course of 4 long long years. Maybe that's a slowdown in the rate of doubling or somesuch
Anyway, that's why India is happy about it. Kumbaya.
I wonder if China has improved on its agreement a year ago to stop growing emissions by 2030
theislander
(35 posts)If Bernie was President, he would be making the case to go further than what it is now agreed upon. Probably a 3% REDUCTION by 2020.
pnwmom
(108,994 posts)Apparently his supporters know as little about the history of climate change negotiations and international diplomacy as he does.
MADem
(135,425 posts)cooperate with Bernie, because, ya know, Bernie...not.
John Kerry said as much--he knew that was about as far as we could go in this round.
Funny, the wingnuts are saying everything from "We'll sacrifice our sovereignty" to "It isn't anywhere near enough to be effective so why bother" -- anything to distract and diminish this remarkable Obama administration achievement.
This is a first step of many more to follow.
pnwmom
(108,994 posts)tex-wyo-dem
(3,190 posts)It is something...better than nothing.
But there is nothing that Bernie said that isn't true. It doesn't go far enough. Other climate scientists and activists said the same thing. If there was ever a critical issue facing everyone, this is it and what we do in the next few years could mean the difference in going off the edge or just skirting it.
And if you read into Kerry's comments, I think he feels the same way.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/79daf872-8894-11e5-90de-f44762bf9896.html#axzz3uMtlNtzh
pnwmom
(108,994 posts)for future gain?
I can't remember that ever happening, can you?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)pnwmom
(108,994 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Actually doing it is the sacrifice.
pnwmom
(108,994 posts)Congress to do our part.
tex-wyo-dem
(3,190 posts)But it's a tottler step rather than the leap that is needed. There are certainly positive aspects of the Paris Accord, but there is no legally binding enforcement to put real teeth in the deal, no carbon tax.
Bernie, James Hansen and other climate scientists and activists who know how desperate the situation is, how close to catastrophe we really are, are criticizing for good reason.
Instead of making moderate consistent changes over the last three to four decades that climate change has been known about, we did nothing and went the opposite direction allowing Laissez-faire capitalism to run roughshod. Now we need to bite the bullet or risk paying a much much higher price.
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)The low expectations brigade rides again..
yardwork
(61,707 posts)There's a difference between making statements and getting people to sign agreements.
Bernie is good at putting the challenges out there - we need to do much more against climate change, we need a higher minimum wage, we need free college tuition, we need single payer health insurance.
It's good to put challenges out there. Raises the bar and gets people thinking. But being an effective president requires compromise and diplomacy to get anything done.
Obama is getting things done.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Of course she is, she helped sell fracking to the world:
How Hillary Clinton's State Department Sold Fracking to the World
Is Bernie supposed to rubber stamp everything the president does? Because Hillary sure doesn't, look at how she criticized his foreign policy in Syria.
What a bizarre op.
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)No wonder we've swung so far to the right, we want someone who will nod and smile and never fight for anything.
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
senz
(11,945 posts)When I read that, I knew Hillary does not give a damn what happens to the world we live in.
... and they wonder why we don't like her.
Utterly bizarre.
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
pnwmom
(108,994 posts)at the same time. We're still just on the first page, but at least we're reading from the same book now.
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
pnwmom
(108,994 posts)The environmental organization, like Hillary, praises it for what it accomplished while pointing out what still needs to happen.
http://www.greenpeace.org/international/en/press/releases/kumi-naidoo-cop21-final-text-paris-climate/
The wheel of climate action turns slowly, but in Paris it has turned. This deal puts the fossil fuel industry on the wrong side of history.
Theres much in the text that has been diluted and polluted by the people who despoil our planet, but it contains a new imperative to limit temperature rises to 1.5 degrees. That single number, and the new goal of net zero emissions by the second half of this century, will cause consternation in the boardrooms of coal companies and the palaces of oil-exporting states.
Now comes the great task of this century. How do we meet this new goal? The measures outlined in Paris simply do not get us there. We have a 1.5 degree wall to climb, but the ladder isnt long enough. The emissions targets on the table arent big enough, and the deal doesnt do enough to change that. The new goal of net zero greenhouse gas emissions by the second half of the century effectively means we need to phase out fossil fuels - the easiest to cut - by 2050.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)He continued:
The deal sets out the objective of limiting temperature rises to 1.5 degrees, but the emissions targets on the table take us closer to 3 degrees. Thats a critical problem, but its one with a solution. Renewable energy is already doing heavy-lifting across the globe, but now its moment must come. Its the only technology mentioned in the Paris Agreement. Theres a yawning gap in this deal, but it can be bridged by clean technology. Were in a race between the roll-out of renewables and rising temperatures, and the Paris Agreement could give renewables a vital boost. The wheel of climate action turns slowly, but in Paris it has turned.
Way to put your op into perspective, Greenpeace agrees with Bernie.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)He's negative about everything....even a global climate agreement with 200 countries.
This is why he's no Obama.
Obama was a positive person and an uplifting candidate.
Bernie just comes across as an asshole.
Cha
(297,655 posts)Please check this out, Cali..
http://www.democraticunderground.com/110231992
Thank you!
Mahalo~
leftofcool
(19,460 posts)He is a doomsdayer with a sky is always falling attitude. Never happy about anything, never smiles. I would hate to have him as a President.
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)Sanders' unofficial slogan "Let's blame someone"
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)He makes speeches about his ideal world and expects to somehow end up there by
. I don't know, magic?
He has never really had to hammer out compromises himself. So much easier to sit in his Vermont Tower and point his finger at all the sell-out pragmatists dealing with Republicans and Big Business.
He is competent to be POTUS but he would be a disaster.
I started out respecting his votes. But the longer this primary campaign goes on, the less I can stand him.
His obnoxious, fellow ideologue supporters probably feed into that.
And when his supporters hit the early primary/caucus states right before they happen, I think his support will plummet.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Or not good enough. All free college all the time or not good enough. Single payer or not good enough. There is a theme.
But then, social issues, wedge issues, we can just set them aside and deal with the important stuff.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Bowing to the Republicans when we should be fighting for liberal causes isn't.
What has Bernie said we need to "set aside and deal with the important stuff"?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Hillary set aside abortion rights more than once, Bernie never did because he's always trusted women to make their own decisions.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)senz
(11,945 posts)Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)NICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Lancero
(3,013 posts)...Huh, wonder why you forgot to point this out - That both candidates agree with this legislation - rather then going off and trying to paint the person saying "...But lets try to do better" as a opponent of the agreement.
Seriously - Why are we decrying a person who says we should do more to combat climate change?
Even more hilariously, both candidates said the same fucking things - This is a good bill, but lets not stop here. The diffrence is that Bernie used more simple terms and was more outright about it.
pnwmom
(108,994 posts)through Obama's efforts was much more positive than Bernie's.
But you are right. Both candidates say that this is just the beginning.
P.S. There is a post on this topic in the Bernie group right now, with the headline of how Bernie isn't impressed. It's also on the home page. Maybe you should make this point to them, since their post prompted me to write this one.
Lancero
(3,013 posts)That topic isn't - Yours, however, is.
That said, the topic isn't showing on the homepage for me - This one is however.
In any event, you're the one trying to paint the candidates differently even though they both in agreement that this is a good first step, and that we should work to make further steps in the future.
pnwmom
(108,994 posts)as if he doesn't understand the huge obstacles Obama surmounted in getting this agreement passed.
Lancero
(3,013 posts)That means we shouldn't try to do better?
Huh. Ok. That's... sound advice, I guess. Bettering ourselves is to hard, so lets not even try.
The hardest things are worth fighting for. Women fighting for the right to vote knew it. AA's during the Civil Rights era knew it. The LGBT community during the DOMA era knew it. They knew that what they sought would require surpassing large obstacles, and they were willing to fight for what they saw as right. Workers fighting for safe workplace conditions knew it - And they knew the risks for if they failed. Workers knew the risks for trying to Unionize back in the past, but that didn't stop them from forming Unions to better the lives of themselves, and other workers.
History is full of hard battles, it is full of huge obstacles. And we've only come this far because people were willing to take on these obstacles, rather then settling for or accepting their lot in life.
pnwmom
(108,994 posts)I am saying that just because there is a great deal still to be accomplished doesn't mean anyone should minimize what Obama helped bring about.
It would have been gracious of Bernie to acknowledge that, as Hillary did. But Senator Grumpy can rarely bring himself to say anything positive about the President these days.
Broward
(1,976 posts)pnwmom
(108,994 posts)in the Bernie group on this topic? They are impressed with the fact that Bernie's not impressed.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Strawmen are the op's specialty.
Turn CO Blue
(4,221 posts)DUers can only seem to focus on this topic in the light of what two non-scientist career politicians who weren't even at the COP21 say about this, then want to dissect that word for word for political hay, and it will never even occur to them to dig into the actual topic and the REAL question:
Will these measures do a damned thing to keep us below 2C or close to 1.5C?
Because we're facing catastrophe, but the pie-fight partisans here are going to rearrange the deck chairs and argue about the music selection.
The only commentary I care to hear AT ALL, is what the leading climate scientists are saying about it.
mythology
(9,527 posts)Expecting the world to change overnight is unrealistic and will just encourage doing nothing. Breaking things down into smaller easier to enact chunks is the far better path. Yes, ideally we'd have a much stronger agreement, but given how much work it is to get 200 governments to agree on what day it is, much less something like this, it's silly to think that Sanders would have gotten a better agreement.
Duppers
(28,127 posts)As do most who follow the Environment and Energy forum posts.
pnwmom
(108,994 posts)Like Hillary and Martin, they at least recognized how much Obama accomplished, while acknowledging how much still needs to be done.
But what would they know?
Cha
(297,655 posts)all two hundred countries who worked on the Paris Climate Change Agreement for so long!
Thank you, Hillary, for appreciating what has been accomplished and knowing it is something to build on..
"The Paris agreement is testament to America's ability to lead the world in building a clean energy future where no one is left out or left behind," she said in a statement. "And it was made possible in part by every person, business owner and community in the United States and around the world that stepped up to prove we don't have to choose between growing our economy and protecting our kids' health and future - we can do both."
Mahalo pnwmom
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)pnwmom
(108,994 posts)But Greenpeace gave him credit for turning the page. They realized how difficult it was to get 200 countries to even read from the same book.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Come on pnwmom, you're cooing over how impressive this agreement is. Show me. Impress me.
pnwmom
(108,994 posts)The wheel of climate action turns slowly, but in Paris it has turned. This deal puts the fossil fuel industry on the wrong side of history.
Theres much in the text that has been diluted and polluted by the people who despoil our planet, but it contains a new imperative to limit temperature rises to 1.5 degrees. That single number, and the new goal of net zero emissions by the second half of this century, will cause consternation in the boardrooms of coal companies and the palaces of oil-exporting states.
Now comes the great task of this century. How do we meet this new goal? The measures outlined in Paris simply do not get us there. We have a 1.5 degree wall to climb, but the ladder isnt long enough. The emissions targets on the table arent big enough, and the deal doesnt do enough to change that. The new goal of net zero greenhouse gas emissions by the second half of the century effectively means we need to phase out fossil fuels - the easiest to cut - by 2050.
Theres not enough in this deal for the nations and people on the frontlines of climate change. It contains an inherent, ingrained injustice. The nations which caused this problem have promised too little help to the people who are already losing their lives and livelihoods.
This deal alone wont dig us out the hole were in, but it makes the sides less steep. To pull us free of fossil fuels we are going to need to mobilise in ever greater numbers. This year the climate movement beat the Keystone pipeline, we kicked Shell out of the Arctic and put coal into terminal decline. We stand for a future powered by renewable energy, and it is a future we will win. In the coming years new political leaders will come to power, and many of them will stand against us and our goals. They will wield great power, but so will we. For us, Paris was always a stop on an ongoing journey. Ultimately our fate will be decided over the coming decades by the collective courage of our species. I believe we will succeed.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Or did you just not understand what you were reading in that one? Greenpeace gives even fainter praise than Sanders did, and their criticism is much sharper.
Theres not enough in this deal for the nations and people on the frontlines of climate change. It contains an inherent, ingrained injustice. The nations which caused this problem have promised too little help to the people who are already losing their lives and livelihoods.
Does this subject hold any genuine interest for you?
pnwmom
(108,994 posts)But he couldn't ram faster and more all-encompassing change down the throats of 200 leaders of other countries. Only a complete neophyte -- or a smart political person who knows what his supporters want him to say -- would have implied that he could have done significantly better than Obama at this point in time.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)And again, do you have any genuine interest in this subject?
pnwmom
(108,994 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)pnwmom
(108,994 posts)I know why the Rethugs are silent on this, but why Bernie?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)And was far less critical than the greenpeace article you've been citing.
third time, do you actually have a genuine interest in this subject, pnwmom?
pnwmom
(108,994 posts)praise for Obama and his HUGE effort to make it this far. And the MAJOR accomplishment it was to get 200 countries to agree on anything significant.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)pnwmom
(108,994 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)What significant items were agreed to at Paris?
senz
(11,945 posts)Your entire OP hinges on that slightly sarcastic-sounding word. But he didn't say it.
He said it's a good start but we need to do more.
Which is absolutely TRUE, pnwmom.
And don't go pitting him against Obama, either.
pnwmom
(108,994 posts)Unlike Martin and Hillary, who gave Obama credit for all his work in bringing this about.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)pnwmom
(108,994 posts)moved an inch forward without years of Obama's efforts.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)And now your goal is "Insufficiently fawning over the president?"
ibegurpard
(16,685 posts)It's not about Obama's "accomplishments"...it's about saving ourselves from environmental destruction .
jhart3333
(332 posts)pnwmom
(108,994 posts)Just dumping on it links Bernie up with the Rethug detractors.
jhart3333
(332 posts)Please, young people all over the world will suffer greatly if we don't get down to it here.
pnwmom
(108,994 posts)public pressure on legislators to move this forward.
jhart3333
(332 posts)pnwmom
(108,994 posts)We need the public to put pressure on Congress -- or dump the Rethugs.
jhart3333
(332 posts)We need a response to climate change now. Time's up.
pnwmom
(108,994 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Or rather maybe... how many more decades do you confidently estimate you have left?
I ask because quite honestly, that's likely a major source of disconnecr between you and me, and other posters on this particular subject.
You're in no rush. you'll be dead before the shit really hits the fan, most likely. Others of us aren't so fortunate.
jhart3333
(332 posts)We are leaving them a Hell on Earth. Half measures and compromises will not do.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)senz
(11,945 posts)Something you need to know, pnwmom: this is not a petty little competitive game between Bernie and Obama. I KNOW Bernie likes and supports Obama and I am sure he appreciates what it took for the world to finally get America to the table and for Obama to throw himself into it. But Bernie is not into the ego/flattery stuff. He has his eyes on reality and his heart with the people (and, in this case, all creatures who live on this earth). He knows we're in trouble and cannot afford to mess around much longer.
I really do not like it when y'all try to play Bernie against Obama. They like and appreciate one another and I'm sure neither would want you to do that.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)She's faulting him for being honest, and it's clear she has no idea that's why so many people respect Bernie.
He puts issues before politics.
senz
(11,945 posts)they put politics before issues.
I visited DI and then "conservative cave" this weekend and am at my wit's end trying to figure out how I could reach those people. Sadly, I feel the same way about reaching some right here.
But it's always nice to see you.
Ya give me hope, kid.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)She really tied herself into a knot trying to spin this into a bad thing.
I hear you, I stay away from sites like DI, I have enough rightwingers to deal with in real life.
I come here because I crave the company of liberals.
Although to hear how some DUers slam Bernie for being too far to the left I have to wonder if some of them wouldn't be happier at DI.
Beacool
(30,251 posts)There are almost 200 countries involved. They barely agreed to sign this treaty. That's the problem with purists, it's either all or nothing for them. The reality is that they got the best deal that they could get under the circumstances.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Basically 200 nations got together and said "Yup, if we don't meet these goals, we're kinda fucked." And then after agreeing to that, they all went home to keep on fracking and coal mining like nothing else, 'cause at the end of the way, it's their energy corporations and hteir investors that have the balls of the law in their hand, firmly-squeezed.
Beacool
(30,251 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)pnwmom
(108,994 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)pnwmom
(108,994 posts)about to give up.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)senz
(11,945 posts)We need to bring the fossil fuel companies, and all giant corporations, to heel. This is a democracy, not a corporatocracy. And this is life on earth, not life in the penthouse.
Bernie is the only candidate who will admit to seeing how topsy-turvy it has become.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)senz
(11,945 posts)This does not help us.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Nobody is really talking about that much. We're discussing if we can limit this to a 2c experiment or if we are going to run a subsequent 4c experiment.
As it stands this agreement is toothless, primarily because the US will not accept an enforceable treaty, and that is because our federal legislature is dominated by a party that has sworn allegiance to the proposition that catastrophic climate change is a commie conspiracy. That ain't Obama's fault, but it is our collective fault and our collective shame.
Nyan
(1,192 posts)Why don't you chill...this kind of agreements are good but oftentimes not good enough -good in that many countries came together and agreed on some things, but not good enough because common ground tends to be narrow and enforcement mechanisms are not forceful enough.
These agreements are important, but we should go much further and not be complacent.
This issue itself is important. Not everything has to be about competition between our candidates...
pnwmom
(108,994 posts)where people were positively impressed with Bernie's not being impressed.
I'm not. I think the Dems should have presented a solid front in strongly supporting this.
senz
(11,945 posts)with the planet than the Democratic Party.
(I don't mean to shock you.)
pnwmom
(108,994 posts)is a simple matter of just being determined enough.
Obama is clearly determined. I'm convinced he accomplished as much as was possible at this point in time.
senz
(11,945 posts)But as Bernie says, we must keep pushing forward on it. We're not there yet.
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)Trying to push the envelope as far as one can - can't compare to the wisdom of beginning negotiations at the lowest common denominator of 200 nation-states.
pnwmom
(108,994 posts)Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)President. This is not North Korea, you know. Sen. Sanders and the vast majority of just of us progressives understand very well that the Republicans are far worse. EVERYONE gets that, I hope. But if the popular meme is that the Clinton's, President Obama and the mainstream centrist leadership are as far left and radical as one can possibly go - anything that goes farther is just too crazy to even take seriously. If that is the common wisdom of the nation and no one even tries to push the envelope any farther - by default we will simply become watered down version of the old style moderate Republicans.
One can make a choice to support policy makers because they are a lot better than the only nationally viable alternative party without making themselves a parody. One can always push the envelope farther when it has not been pushed far enough. One can do that without making themselves look ridiculous with fawning praise of our leaders. One can try to push their favored candidate - even point out faults in their opponent without going to such extremes. One is not going to win over Bernie's supporters with constant browbeating.
NanceGreggs
(27,818 posts)... so I guess that makes us even.
melman
(7,681 posts)Ron Green
(9,823 posts)People taking Bernie to task for TELLING THE TRUTH about a weak and toothless accord that's more than 40 years overdue, and pretending that he didn't acknowledge the little bit of progress and window dressing that was made.
AND, as others have pointed out, making it some kind of sour-grapes thing among the candidates.
Some of this shit is getting tiring.
pnwmom
(108,994 posts)that Bernie wasn't impressed with the agreement, and all of his supporters were fine with that.
They just don't like it to be brought up here, and compared with Hillary's and Martin's more positive responses.
Ron Green
(9,823 posts)it's about perceived sensibilities of the candidates and how supportive they are of the bought process.
Turn CO Blue
(4,221 posts)what music to play at the funeral for the planet, I guess.
The pledges in that deal get us to 3C not 1.5C like they're touting in the press releases.
At 3C we are pretty much done. Rainforests burned away, scarcity of fresh-water, etc etc.
riversedge
(70,302 posts)him, Kerry and other negotiators. I think so many across America recognize the hard work Pres Obama and his team put into getting an agreement from 200 nations and to be grouchy and immediately pounce on the deal is petty.
Turn CO Blue
(4,221 posts)So what ARE leading climate scientists saying?
They are saying it doesn't go nearly far enough, but they're saying that at least it's a tiny step.
They're skeptical we'll be close to 2C, even though 1.5C was in the deal.
They're saying the pledges in the deal only get us to 3C.
At 3C - fresh water is in short supply (no runoff from snowmelt), we lose the coral reefs, the rainforests burn away, the gulf stream no longer moves, sea levels rise several feet, and nobody goes outside during spring or summer.
Pretty telling.
____________________
I like Hillary. I like Bernie. The Hillarybots and Berniebots think this is high school.
pnwmom
(108,994 posts)I'm sure it depends on who you ask, but the ones they reported on were saying hopeful things.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/13/science/earth/climate-accord-is-a-healing-step-if-not-a-cure.html?mabReward=CTM&action=click&pgtype=Homepage®ion=CColumn&module=Recommendation&src=rechp&WT.nav=RecEngine
And yet 50 years after the first warning about global warming was put on the desk of an American president, and quickly forgotten, the political system of the world is finally responding in a way that scientists see as commensurate with the scale of the threat.
I think this Paris outcome is going to change the world, said Christopher B. Field, a leading American climate scientist. We didnt solve the problem, but we laid the foundation.
SNIP
Hans Joachim Schellnhuber a pioneering environmental scientist, chairman of the German governments advisory committee on climate change, and climate adviser to Pope Francis declared on Saturday that this is a turning point in the human enterprise, where the great transformation towards sustainability begins.
SNIP
In interviews, scientists with long experience studying climate change, and a long history of being discouraged by the politics of the issue, said they were heartened by the cooperative tone in Paris.
But for the deal to mean anything, they said, the celebratory moment must give way immediately to an era in which intensive efforts are made to squeeze emissions out of the world economy. That task will fall largely to businesses and investors, operating under emissions-reduction policies that countries have pledged to put into effect by 2020.
longship
(40,416 posts)Mainly, two of the more visible ones. Both Michael Mann and James Hansen have indicated that this does not go far enough. Hansen was quite a bit more critical, as he is want to do. Mann sees it as a positive step, however, albeit not a perfect one.
So, I would have to defer to the scientists here, and Bernie. But I would also state that anytime one gets 190 nations to agree on anything may be portrayed as a good first step.
But this is likely only a baby step to what is going to be required in the future on this matter.
Nuance is difficult for some people. I guess.
BeyondGeography
(39,379 posts)Bernie is a scold.
jfern
(5,204 posts)Or are you just mindlessly attacking Bernie with anything and everything?
pnwmom
(108,994 posts)in a closed group -- with the headline that Bernie wasn't impressed with the agreement -- "mindlessly attacking Bernie?"
jfern
(5,204 posts)pnwmom
(108,994 posts)And posted the same article that's in another forum.
If that seems like an attack to you, so be it.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)goes one of Sanders' criticisms he's been running on -- the TPP doesn't cover climate change.
Yeah, I know, there are no teeth in the climate agreement. Guess we should have put in a provision that the USA would invade and occupy any country that didn't live up to its obligations.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Can I have some of what you're smoking? It must be very, very powerful stuff.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)The TPP simply says countries should make efforts to improve environment in manufacturing, farming, etc.
So you are wrong, as were those who criticized TPP for not going further with respect to environment. Trade deals have not typically gotten into that.
In any event, Obama did it again.
ismnotwasm
(42,011 posts)[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]
It was a delicate series of negotiations. Some of the major blocks had to do with trade of course. And getting 196 countries to sign an agreement is a huge accomplishment. It's a very decent framework for action.
FWIW, while I get what Sanders was trying to say, it was to say the least, a poorly phrased criticism, quite concerning actually, considering he has a possible future as POTUS. If elected, this is the framework the next POTUS has to work with. To build on. It will be an on-going process, as is clear in the agreement.
Fot those who, you know, would actually like to read it, here is a link
http://unfccc.int/resource/docs/2015/cop21/eng/l09.pdf
The language is non-binding in many areas which is I'm guessing people what have a problem with, rather than see it as a positive direction, they would prefer a set of agreements--involving a couple hundred nations-- with teeth. This is problematic, as is clear in the body of the agreement. There is relative climate of the nations, as well as relative income--which is why an agreement was made to financially assist developing nations for instance.
lonestarnot
(77,097 posts)Armstead
(47,803 posts)cosmicone
(11,014 posts)R B Garr
(16,976 posts)Its becoming obvious why he hid out in Vermont for decades instead of running with the big dogs. Ugh. He gets more superficial by the minute.
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)shut down all coal power plants, ban the use of any and all fossil fuels, etc, etc, blah blah blah.
The republicans will of course do everything president Bernie wants and its not going to cost the average american a thing!
And here is Burnies plan to get all these things done...................................................
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