It's offensive to me when Hillary Clinton is named as a fierce advocate for LGBT equality

[MannyGoldstein]

She specifically fought LGBT equality not many years ago, and only accepted it after most Americans did.

After most Americans did.

(And immediately, the DNC began a "Stand With Hillary!" campaign. They could have done "Stand with Bernie!" campaign decades earlier but... well, we all know what's going on there.)

Shouting that up is down or that black is white offends my sense of logic, but claiming that Hillary is some sort of LGBT crusader is that much more offensive as it involves a person who publicly proclaimed that a certain group should be deprived of human rights because of the way they are born.

Oh, and if it was OK because she needed to say it to get elected? Then what the @#$& do you think she's doing now with her "I'll say whatever Bernie says!" strategy?

Enough!

I await my hide.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

1. A big, fat K&R!

[Tommy2Tone]

2. Times change

Years ago there was not the awareness for LGBT rights. A lot of people in congress who supported civil unions are now on board with LGBT equality. I think Hillary fits in that category. I have never heard her call herself a LGBT crusader? I would be interested in a link to that?

[winter is coming]

3. In general, the thing that concerns me most about politicians who adopt positions only after it's

politically safe to do so: what happens if the wind changes? Is anything not on the table?

[WillyT]

5. + 1,000,000,000 - What You Said !!!

Exactly !!!

[MisterP]

21. no

[roguevalley]

51. I get tired of people and their 'evolutions'. She and Bill were hard

on gays at a time when they already had hard lives. That's unforgivable politically for me. It is too self serving for me.

[irisblue]

4. She announced for it AFTER Portman did. His kid came out

Memory tells me....but I can't Google check on my cellphone.

[Autumn]

8. It was in 2013 when republican Rob Portman came out in support of gay marrage

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/editorials/2013/03/15/gay-couples-also-deserve-chance-to-get-married.html

[irisblue]

41. Portman on 3/15/13. HRC on 3/20/15. She was earlier on

LGBT work issues for sure.

[Autumn]

47. I was shocked that a republican would do what he did.

He's a good Dad.

[irisblue]

48. almost an earthquake in Rep circles in Ohio

HAHAHAHA.

[pangaia]

6. I am honored to give you your hide. here it is.

HIDE !!!



Keep up the good work. !!!

[madokie]

7. Every thing she does

is calculated to keep her on the path to the Oval Office. She has been on this quest since Bill walked in the door. Anyone who doesn't remember this are either not paying attention then or are in denial.

It amazes me at the blunders she's made in this quest. That makes me question her judgment

[Divernan]

78. What about her budgeting disasters?

Overspent her campaign budget by $12 MILLION DOLLARS IN 2008. And then it took HRC 5 years to pay off the debt, mainly by sending Bill out scrambling for donations.

Yup! she went $ Twelve Million in the hole to vendors in her last campaign. Let's hope everyone's smart enough to demand payment in advance this time around.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/22/hillary-clinton-campaign-debt_n_2530528.html
Hillary Clinton Campaign Debt From 2008 Retired

Now picture her committing the US to extended/new land wars. Given her inability to admit failure or error, she'll spend this country into the poorhouse. It will be like the Soviet Union and Afghanistan.

[KMOD]

9. My apologies.

I didn't realize you were a member of our LGBT community.

I'm straight, but I stand with everyone whose rights are always under attack.

There is just no reason to discriminate against the LGBT community. I have been doing everything I can to assist them, and I will continue to do so.

[MannyGoldstein]

12. What the Hell does that mess even mean in the context of the OP?

I have no @#$&ing idea.

[MannyGoldstein]

16. So only LGBT people can feel that LGBT people should be granted human rights?

WTF? Seriously?

Wow!

[Scuba]

19. Someone seems to feel that only gays can care about gays. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

[Autumn]

22. A straight person at that.

[malokvale77]

74. Stupid doesn't explain it.

That poster's bigotry came through loud and clear.

[malokvale77]

68. WTF...

you make me want to vomit.

[Divernan]

85. The good news is that was the 5th hide - no posts from him/her

5 posts hidden in 90 days: -100
temporarily unable to post & of course no jury duty.

Other interesting stats: in 14 months of membership on DU, Number of posts: 5,568

[malokvale77]

90. They can still PM.

I just got one that said "Thanks".

That was it in full.

[kath]

104. Ooh.

Yay.

[panader0]

147. KMOD has many posts in the clinton cave

I saw the name on a few of the screen saves before it became so exclusive.

[NCTraveler]

10. Action

Behind The Scenes Of Hillary Clinton's Push For LGBT Rights At The State Department


http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/7706748

And your concern seems to be about a hide.

[MannyGoldstein]

13. So you're claiming that my OP is wrong?

That she backed LGBT equality before most Americans did?

[NCTraveler]

18. I did no such thing.

That's why you won't be able to point to where I did. The Manny game is that if Manny doesn't get the answer he wants, at tantrum is thrown and Manny repeatedly put words in people's mouth.

My post was a direct response to what you pose in the op. She is clearly an advocate today and you would know that if you looked at my link. Now fierce, I'm not sure. Willing to use her clout to progress the issue? Absolutely.

[MannyGoldstein]

23. Being an advocate today is like

switching from backing the Confederacy to the Union after Lee's surrender at Apomattox, and claiming that makes you a life-long anti-slaver.

[NCTraveler]

26. Wow. Have at it.

She is one of the loudest and most recognizable voices for equality today. She talks about equality often and with a massive voice. I have a great appreciation for it.

The movement for LGBQT rights is one of the greatest grassroots movements in history. What happened? They changed hearts and minds one at a time. You are directing your hate at what many of us refer to as awesome.

I am sorry you are offended. That's never cool.

[marym625]

116. There's such a thing as too little too late

Some people tried to sell "separate but equal" which is, as we know is a complete fallacy, as championing for equal rights.

What she did with LGBT is tantamount to the "advocates" for the "negro" in the 50s who said that black people should have equality as long as that "equality" stays in segregated areas.

Try and wrap it up in any kind of tidy bow you want. She didn't decide we were equal until long after the majority did. And in an interview in 2014 she would not say she believed marriage equality was right.

Spare me the awesomeness when it comes to Hillary fighting for the LGBT community

[merrily]

133. +1

[Cassiopeia]

25. She is ONLY for LGBT rights today because

focus groups and the public now tell her it hurts her less to be for them than against them.

For decades she stood firmly in the way of equal rights. I don't give a shit what her reason was, she stood in the way of equality.

[NCTraveler]

29. She is one of the loudest and...

Most recognized voices fighting for equality today. No doubt she isn't perfect.

[Cassiopeia]

30. And the least believable.

If a strong anti LGBT movement broke out tomorrow and 51% of likely voters agreed, she would be a fierce opponent of LGBT rights all over again.

[NCTraveler]

31. Read my link above.

Action.

And she buys the best polls money can buy. No concern of her getting such an outlier as is in your hypothetical.

[malokvale77]

92. I certainly agree...

that she buys the best polls money can buy.

[senz]

50. She's never been fierce and loud in defense of anything.

She's scripted.

[in_cog_ni_to]

64. Right. Scripted only after polling focus groups which tell her which script to recite.

It's hard to believe people give her a pass on this issue.


PEACE
LOVE
BERNIE

[senz]

71. Yep. I get the impression

they don't want to look too closely at their candidate.

[bvar22]

142. Why else would DWS and the Party Leadership be hiding Hillary from debates?

The Hillary Campaign learned the WRONG lessons from the 2008 beating.

[malokvale77]

81. Today?

After everybody else did the hard work.

Maybe in 20 years us poor folks can get her to speak for us.

Fucking Bullshit.

[NCTraveler]

124. If you actually read my posts...

The credit went directly to those who did the heavy lifting. But that wouldn't provide a good rant for you. It's been one of the greatest grassroots movements we have ever seen. I don't dismiss their success stories. If my grandpa came out today and changed his views on the topic I would applaud him. I wouldn't smack him and yell "too little too late!!!!!"

[mindwalker_i]

86. And how quickly will that change?

As soon as it's more profitable to not be for LGBT rights, like when she wants to get congress to go along with something. Or she needs support from someone. That's the problem with people who change their positions at the drop of a hat: they will do it again just as easily.

[Chitown Kev]

65. Bernie may not have been as firm...

but he did not endorse marriage equality in 1999 when CUs were being discussed (and even his support for CU's was tepid) and he did not endorse marriage equality for Vermont (he may not have opposed it) in 2006...it was a pretty sensitive issue in Vermont, so I am not sure that I hold it against him all that much, but he wasn't blazing a trail of equality either.

[zalinda]

82. Except he was

32 Years Before Marriage Equality, Bernie Sanders Fought For Gay Rights

<snip>
“A decade ago politicians ran against LGBT rights; today, they’re running towards them,” Obama said once in a speech, leaving out the fact that he is one of those politicians.

But you know who wasn’t? Well, assuming you’ve already read the headline, you’re right: Bernie Sanders.

Not only did Sanders vote against the Defense of Marriage Act in 1996 which defined marriage as between one man and one woman, signed into law by then-president Bill Clinton — an unpopular position then — a look back at Sanders’ political career shows consistent support of the gay rights movement. Even when it was more than just unpopular, it was downright controversial.

In 1983, two years into Sanders’ run as mayor of Burlington, VT, local gay rights leaders planned the city’s first ever pride parade and called on the Board of Aldermen to designate June 25 Lesbian and Gay Pride Day.
<snip>

http://www.queerty.com/32-years-before-marriage-equality-bernie-sanders-fought-for-gay-rights-20150719


Z

[Chitown Kev]

87. Read what I said very, very carefully

When it came to marriage issues, Sanders hedged for whatever reason. Not as firmly as Clinton, but he did hedge...remember, I don't really hold that against him...I know Sanders' record on LGBT issues as well as you, if not better. I have done my research.

I read and listen to what gay people in Vermont say
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/28/us/politics/as-gay-rights-ally-bernie-sanders-wasnt-always-in-vanguard.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&_r=1

including bmus

[MADem]

109. Sanders also sought the endorsements of people who have been unfriendly to the gay community.

George Lopez and Killer Mike, most recently.

I don't think he prioritizes equality issues--and those who support them--as a meaningful segment of voters in this election.

[pnwmom]

56. And meanwhile, in 2008 Bernie still considered same sex marriage to be a states rights issue. n/t

[zalinda]

84. See post #82 eom

[pnwmom]

89. I've read it. So what? He still didn't support full marriage equality till a few years

before Hillary. Till then he said it was a states rights issue.

[malokvale77]

94. FFS...

Get real. He considered it states rights to protect those rights from a federal government that was trying to deny them.

[pnwmom]

95. Wrong. He said he wasn't going to introduce a bill calling for the Federal government

to legalize gay marriage because he considered marriage a matter for the states, and Vermont had civil unions.

[beam me up scottie]

96. Of course he did, here is the transcript from that video:

I was a strong supporter of civil unions, I believe that. I voted against the DOMA bill, I believe that the federal government should not be involved in overturning Massachusetts or any other the state because I think the whole issue of marriage is a state issue.

[malokvale77]

102. Yes, yes, yes.

I'm sick to death of the f@#king twisting of the records that are so easily debunked by the official records if anyone cared to look.

Goodnight and good luck bmus.

[beam me up scottie]

107. Oh I'm done here, there's no talking to some people.

They refuse to admit they're wrong about that video and keep slinging that debunked slate blog piece around like it's the gospel.

They don't want to talk about the issue, they just want to smear Bernie. Many of them have been hostile to lgbt people here for years, opposed to marriage equality and regularly defend the Pope from his lgbt critics. Some have even been blocked from posting in their group.

ChitownKev is pretty cool and he's not a supporter of either candidate. The others, meh!

Good night!

[jfern]

11. She still opposed SSM until after a poll had 58% supporting SSM in 2013

[PatrickforO]

15. I think Clinton is entirely too poll-driven to deserve the presidency.

She lost me way back in 93 when Bernie Sanders arranged for the two foremost physician advocates of single payer healthcare to meet Clinton. One of them told her that most Americans wanted single payer. She asked if they had a plan to overcome the millions insurance companies would put in play to defeat it. He replied, how about the president leading the people. She said, "Tell me something real."

Well, my shitty HMO is all TOO real. They would rather cut costs than give patients the medical treatment they actually need. And the fact that my employer and I between us spend about 18.5% of my gross on this shitty, rationed healthcare plan is also REAL.

That is exactly why my support for Sanders is REAL.

Funny how Bernie has been on the right side of all kinds of issues, isn't it? Because he cares about us.

[CharlotteVale]

17. That video is an example of sanctimonious posturing at its finest.

Like the Church Lady, only not funny.

[Ino]

33. And she sounds just as sanctimonious saying the exact opposite...

...with her careful over-pronunciation, conferring her pearls of wisdom with the same conviction and condescension.

[CharlotteVale]

34. LOL...her DNA flip flops too!

[blue neen]

113. What does that even mean?

I'm sure you realize that Republicans used "flip flops" as a derogatory term for Democratic candidate John Kerry in 2004?

It just seems like a term we should not be using on Democratic Underground when discussing Democrats.

[CharlotteVale]

117. When somebody calls "the marriage bond" between a

"Man and woman" sacred, which she did in the first video, THAT is what being like a Republican is like. And when they change their tune a few years later and claim being for gay marriage is in their DNA, it's a complete reversal.

Funny how you're the one defending the Republican position here.

[blue neen]

119. Defending the Republican position here?

Please show me the exact words in my post that defend a Republican position on anything.

[blue neen]

122. Crickets.

You can't answer because I did no such thing.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, since you just joined here in March 2015. Maybe you didn't follow politics up until that point, because if you did, you would know that in 2004 the Republicans beat Democrat John Kerry mercilessly with the "flip flop" slur. They went so far as to wear "flip flop" band-aids at the Republican National convention that year.

I've been a proud supporter of Democrats on this board since 2004 and have worked on several Democratic campaigns. I'll volunteer for our nominee in 2016, whoever that may be. You need to try sticking that Republican label on someone else.

[CharlotteVale]

125. Well, you're defending Hillary's sacred bond bull crap. If

That isn't being like a Republican I don't know what is.

I don't know why you'd think I'd care how long you've been voting Democratic. Yawn.

Your impatience at how quickly I respond to you is odd. In fact it's starting to feel like harassment so I consider this conversation over. I stated my opinion about Hillary and why I felt that way, and if you don't like it that's your problem.

[blue neen]

128. Please use the exact words where I defended "Hillary's sacred bond bull crap".

I didn't even mention her.

You ought to care how long I've been voting Democratic. Your purpose on this board seems to be showing support for Bernie Sanders. I was under the impression that Bernie Sanders, as are all of the other candidates, is trying to win Democratic votes. If you find that boring and must yawn while doing so, perhaps you could find a more stimulating hobby.

My impatience at how quickly you respond is not odd. I don't enjoy being called a Republican for even one second. You want this conversation to be over because you've got nothing to say to me but things that you invent.

The purpose of DU, which is in the Terms of Service that you agreed to when you signed up back in March, is to support and elect Democrats. If you're using Republican slurs to describe Democrats, it's not really helpful to the Democratic causes. If you don't like the Terms of Service, that's your problem.

[MrMickeysMom]

20. YouGH K&R!

You bet.

[Chitown Kev]

24. First of all, who ever said that Hillary Clinton WAS a "fierce advocate"

for LGBT equality?

"Fierce advocate" were words that Presidential candidate Barack Obama used and, by and large, he's lived up to that as POTUS.

2) They could have done "Stand with Bernie!" campaign decades earlier but... well, we all know what's going on there.)


Sure.

Bernie wasn't a Democrat, by his own admission. Why would the Democratic National Committee have done such a thing when Sanders was throwing Democrats shade by not identifying as a Democrat.

[MannyGoldstein]

28. Did I use "fierce advocate' in quotes? I don't see it. Do you?

It not, it denotes a concept, not a quote. I would think that you'd know that. So why are you claiming I used it as a quote?

On your other point... it's a point of sorts, but the Democrats have never failed to embrace him as a virtual Democrat.

[Chitown Kev]

32. It refers very specifically to a phrase that Candidate Obama uttered

and a promise that Candidate Obama made...I'm simply applying context...Clinton herself isn't making that claim.

Bernie never embraced the Democrats in Congress outside of caucusing with them and endorsing Dem presidential candidates, FWIW...why would the DNC be obligated to support him in that way?...the Vermont Democratic Party did, yes, but not the DNC nor should they have done so.

[Autumn]

36. "outside of caucusing with them and endorsing Dem presidential candidates"

You know, that sounds pretty damn much sounds like embracing the Democrats in Congress to me. What else should he have done? Give warm hugs and kisses to the little darlings every day?

[MannyGoldstein]

37. So Obama somehow has an exclusive on the (common) phrase 'fierce advocate'

with regard to LGBT people?

[Chitown Kev]

40. no...but Hillary Clinton has never made this claim

mind you, I HAVE criticized Hillary Clinton's past LGBT positions, so I am not exactly defending Clinton...but Secretary Clinton never made this claim for herself.

and...if you re not LGBT or closely related or friends with an LGBT person, then it is not your place to be offended.

As far as I am concerned, You're just using Clinton's past LGBT positions as campaign fodder to bolster your candidate (who, on the whole, has a better LGBT track record than Clinton...and Martin O'Malley's is better than Sanders, FWIW) and that's offensive to me.

Don't make me read you!

[MannyGoldstein]

42. So you understood "when Hillary Clinton is named as " to mean "when Hillary claims she is"?

Okay.

[Chitown Kev]

49. Did Hillary name herself that way?

I get that Hillary supporters may have said that but I have already spoken to LGBT issues/Hillary Clinton on several occasions, you can look that up.

You are simply using this rhetoric as campaign fodder...which is your right, but considering the volume of ant-Hillary-everything posts you do on a daily basis, I have every right and reason to call you out on THAT.

And as far as policy prescriptions/proposals, Hillary's proposals are much more detailed than Sanders and Hillary actually states that she will take more executive actions than Sanders (whether she will follow up on that is another story)

[malokvale77]

97. Whoa...

if you re not LGBT or closely related or friends with an LGBT person, then it is not your place to be offended.

First of all, who isn't?

Second of all, why can't a person be offended by anyone's rights being denied.

Who are you to tell anyone their "place" to be offended

[Chitown Kev]

100. Because it turns issues that directly affect

me into a political football...which happens, but in my opinion, Manny is more concerned about Sanders than my rights. It rubs me the wrong way.

[merrily]

132. Can't say for sure, but I doubt marym625 is more concerned with Sanders than with your rights.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=908415

I can't speak with certitude about mary or manny or anyone else. However, I know I personally am not for Sanders first and human rights issues later. Rather, I am for Sanders because of his stands on human rights issues first and foremost, but also because of his stands other issues.

Bernie Sanders took the stands he took when they were very unpopular and might have cost him something--took them because he believed in them, not because they were polling well. That is what triangulation is about--taking a mid point between the Republican position and a center left Democratic position for the purpose of getting yourself elected and re-elected. Its not about fighting for what is best for Americans and America.

The very reason the the DLC came into existence in the first place was that Reagan had won, not that the DLC had some vision for Americans and America. Al From, DLC founder, approached Clinton with "I have a plan that I believe would make you President," not with, "How would you like to do great things for your fellow Americans?"

I have zero desire to vote for someone's personal ambition to be elected and re-elected. I am voting for a set of principles. While Bernie Sanders has not always fought for every one of the principles that comprise my ideal set, he is about principles and not about his personal well-being and ambition. Maybe he is not perfect in that respect either, but he sure comes a heck of a lot closer to it than either of the triangulating Clintons.

[MannyGoldstein]

137. Spot on.

As always.

[Thinkingabout]

27. I am not offended, she has been an advocate for LGBT for a long time.

[Dragonfli]

59. A little over two years

Before that for decades she went on and on about how marriage was a "sacred bond between a man and a woman" and how marriage needed defending from such perversity as might oppose such a concept.

Two years is a long time for a toddler or a smallish mammal, but it tends to not mean a long time for a Woman of her years.

If that is a long time for you I suppose that says a great deal about you as well.

Besides, she only changed her mind when the polling reached something like 60% in favor against bigotry, if the polls reverse I am sure she will reverse yet again as is her way, her very consistent way (for a long time in the real sense).

[Thinkingabout]

70. I guess you don't know all of Hillary's positions for two decades

[Dragonfli]

75. Well you clearly do not, your many posts give you away, I find you to be the least informed poster

On this site.

Basically a disjointed jumble of jingoism, talking points, and propaganda.
I could write a program that could post similar (but clearer) text.

[Thinkingabout]

77. Oh, yea

[malokvale77]

99. I agree with Dragonfli...

you don't seem to be very well informed. I'm reminded of the cheerleaders in high school.

Kick em back, way back - oops, our team had the ball.

Dontcha hate when that happens?

[Thinkingabout]

126. Attacking me does not change the truth, it only reflects on you.

Enjoy your attacks.

[cui bono]

35. Well Manny, things that Bernie did decades ago simply do not matter.

Even though he has fought the good fight continually throughout those decades, it does not matter. And no one wants to hear about it.

.

[DaveT]

44. Sez you

I want to hear it.

[pnwmom]

58. In 2008 he still thought same sex marriage was a states' rights issue.

He supported full marriage equality only in 2009, a few years ahead of Hillary, yes.

[BainsBane]

38. Were you offended in 2006 when Bernie opposed marriage equality in VT?

http://time.com/4089946/bernie-sanders-gay-marriage/

http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2015/10/05/bernie_sanders_on_marriage_equality_he_s_no_longtime_champion.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/11/03/sanders-evolving-and-wishy-washy-stance-on-same-sex-marriage/

I think LGBT Americans can best determine who best represents their interests. The fact is most straight Americans have evolved on marriage equality over the past few decades. If they hadn't, marriage would still be restricted to heterosexuals.

[MannyGoldstein]

39. None of those claim he opposed marriage equality in 2006

You're making this up.

[Chitown Kev]

52. To be fair: He may have (personally) supported marriage equality in VT...he may have opposed it...

we really don't know.

[beam me up scottie]

55. Do you have proof he opposed marriage equality?

Because the slate blogger lied about the videotape, I have the transcript:

I was a strong supporter of civil unions, I believe that. I voted against the DOMA bill, I believe that the federal government should not be involved in overturning Massachusetts or any other the state because I think the whole issue of marriage is a state issue.

[Protalker]

43. Biden is the hero

Joe Biden this the one we have to thank for his great off the cuff support you gave to gay lesbian and bisexual people. All the rest evolved including our president. We need to get right with a winner who knows how to fight so that we can take on the hate of the Republican Party. you have to get elected to make a difference.

[DaveT]

45. That is the disagreement between us

What Hillary knows how to do is lose.

What in her career shows that she has ever done at the national level but lose?

1993-4 she got clobbered on health care and our party and country are still suffering from this Loser's political ineptitude.

2008 she lost the same kind of polling lead she has now once the actual voting began.

[Chitown Kev]

54. Joe Biden...the man who voted for DOMA?

No thanks.

[beam me up scottie]

60. He voted for DOMA in 1996.

Joe Biden evolved but he is no hero.

21 Senators Who Voted For DOMA In 1996 But Later Opposed It

2. Former Sen. and Vice President Joe Biden (D-DE). Endorsed marriage equality in 2012 in an interview, spurring President Obama to do the same

http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2013/03/06/1671581/21-senators-who-voted-for-doma-in-1996-but-later-opposed-it/

[Chitown Kev]

67. Thnak you, bmus

Obama has never been on the record as supporting DOMA.

[beam me up scottie]

72. Honestly I don't think Obama ever really opposed it.

Last edited Fri Dec 18, 2015, 05:40 AM - Edit history (1)

Obama wasn't brought up as a devout Christian so when he claimed that was why he opposed it I think he was trying to convince Christians he was one of them.

[irisblue]

76. Biden announced for marriage equality 5/6/12.

Obama on 5/9/12. I think Biden forced Obamas' hand publicly.
.

[Chitown Kev]

83. 1996, you can look that one up

He retracted that support, yes and in 2004 he pretty much said that it was a tactical move. In 2008, Obama came out with all of that "God in the mix" BS and I sharply criticized that

But Obama said that he would be a fierce advocate for gays and lesbians as president and he has lived up to that, by and large. And even with the good stuff that Clinton did as SOS, she served under Obama...so Obama gets some credit for that as well.

[PatrynXX]

46. this is akin to Trump being Anti Abortion now after being Pro Choice

and donating Millions to Planned Parenthood before he ran this year. X_X like trust me he's still pro choice and she's still a social conservative. and a Fiscal Conservative. This is where trump Differs. He's a Social Liberal on record, but a Fiscal Conservative. and not a very good one at that

[pnwmom]

53. Links please. I think she was a few years behind Bernie, but ahead of the general curve. nt

[beam me up scottie]

57. Here's one but I have more if you need them:

Hillary Clinton’s changing position on same-sex marriage

Our conclusion

Clinton opposed same-sex marriage as a candidate for the Senate, while in office as a senator, and while running for president in 2008. She expressed her support for civil unions starting in 2000 and for the rights’ of states to set their own laws in favor of same-sex marriage in 2006.

As polls showed that a majority of Americans supported same-sex marriage, Clinton’s views changed, too. She announced her support for same-sex marriage in March 2013.

It’s up to voters to decide how they feel about her changed stance, but on same-sex marriage we give Clinton a Full Flop.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/jun/17/hillary-clinton/hillary-clinton-change-position-same-sex-marriage/

[malokvale77]

62. Hah...

If jack shit became acceptable Hillary would care about it.

[Indepatriot]

63. Opportunism, plain and simple.

And disgusting.

[Duppers]

66. Tell like it is, Manny.

Thanks, as usual.

[Midnight Writer]

69. Honestly, i prefer a politician who is willing to change their positions

Convictions make convicts, that is, folks who are so trapped in their pre-conceived "idealogical cage" that they will never entertain an opposing view, despite the evidence or their learning experience.

Brave people stood up, delivered their message, educated the masses and changed a lot of minds. Clinton listened to them, thought over their arguments, and changed her position. Isn't that kind of how a free exchange of ideas and a democratic process is supposed to work?

Would anyone here reject the support of voters who were raised to believe LGBT folks were evil blasphemers who deserved legal and societal repercussions for their "sins, but through education and life experience changed their views? Because there are a hell of a lot of them. Just look at the polls over the last fifty or so years, and you see a dramatic shift in views. Shall we disparage all of these Americans who came late to the party, or shall we embrace them and accept them and celebrate them.

You know, just as we all want to be embraced, accepted and celebrated, despite our differences.

[DaveT]

79. That is a reasonable point

In response I say that if this were the only (or just one of a few) instances of Clinton changing her mind, it would not be all the big of a deal. But it is not the only example or only just one of a few.

Her flip flops are not the biggest reason why I oppose her as our party's nominee. But they hardly speak well for her no matter what.

[Ino]

80. I would prefer the politician who always had the correct position...

over the one who meandered toward it -- especially when the "conversion" stinks strongly of political opportunism.

I prefer a leader with an instinctive sense of what's right and strong integrity, not a poll-tester who needs other brave people to first educate the masses before she follows along.

I would not disparage late-comers, but I certainly would not prefer them over those who have been on the right side all along!

[Midnight Writer]

91. Who among us has "been on the right side all along"?

My life has seen so many changes, my personal education has elevated me so many times, and my views have shifted from (hopefully) dark to light so often, that my goal is to never dismiss another's view or a new idea without a lot of research and thought.

My mother used to tell us "A day without learning something new is a day wasted". Learning requires an open mind, and true change requires an open heart.

I can only hope to learn and let that knowledge change me every day.

Change is the only road to progress.

[Ino]

103. Bernie Sanders

But hey... if you trust someone who is still a work in progress, who is still shifting from dark to light, Hillary is your girl!

[Doctor_J]

73. She is an embarrassment, but not as much as

those who support her. And even the run of the mill supporters have it over those who hated her eight years ago but now adore her. See my sig line, or du's Fox news employee for example.

[McCamy Taylor]

88. And I am offended when folks try to stifle free speech by saying "It offends me!"

Whether Clinton is a gay icon or not is a debatable matter.

Whether it bothers you that she is called a gay icon is irrelevant. I am getting tired of all this "If you praise Clinton, you hurt my feelings" rhetoric.

[reddread]

127. distortions and lies revulse honest people.

especially things like this, where the ugly truth is papered over with manure.

[MannyGoldstein]

131. So you want to stop my free speech,

because it might discourage free speech.

Got it.

Sounds sensible.

[zentrum]

93. Offends me too.

Actually in terms of the center of the curve, I remember her as being a little late. She wanted to be very, very, extra very careful.

Plus, what about equal protection under the law did she not understand from day one?

Wasn't she a lawyer?

[reddread]

139. BINGO

how any American can forgive that sort of abrogation boggles me..

[Fearless]

98. Agreed 100%

[olddots]

101. her choices and positions have been driven by her agenda

Her agenda is to be rich and powerfull at the cost of her moral compass .

[MADem]

105. She's smart enough to not take endorsements from gay bashers

like George Lopez...

I don't like Republicans, but I don't use the word "puto" to describe them. And Lopez has been doing that shit for years, now.

[beam me up scottie]

111. Hillary took an endorsement from EMILY's List, they love anti-lgbt/choice Christian bigots:

EMILY's List Teams Up With Christian Coalition In Hawaii

Last Thursday night, backward and reactionary congressional candidate Donna Kim told PBS Hawaii viewers she opposes marriage equality based on her Catholic faith. The very next morning she was endorsed by EMILY's List, a nominally pro-choice organization.

When Stephanie Schriock described Kim as “pro-choice” in the group’s endorsement statement, it was more than a desperate stretch; many in Hawaii were shocked. That term has rarely, if ever, been used to describe to Kim, a state senator who's been in various elected offices for 30 years. Kim has never been endorsed by the Patsy T. Mink PAC, which supports pro-choice women seeking election to the Hawaii state legislature. Kim regularly campaigns at vehemently anti-Choice fundamentalist churches, and even partners with them in her official capacity.

Indeed, it hasn't been clear Kim is even pro-contraception. In 2012, when seeking the endorsement of the anti-choice Hawaii Family Forum, she described herself as undecided on whether rape victims should be entitled to emergency contraception. She very pointedly hasn’t commented on the Hobby Lobby decision.

http://downwithtyranny.blogspot.com/2014/07/emilys-list-teams-up-with-christian.html

Oh, Please! Not More EMILY's List Anti-Semitism!



EMILY's List has a reputation for being the dirtiest players in politics-- as bad or worse than the Republican sociopaths employed by the Kochs and Adelson. The difference is that the man-haters at EMILY's List don't deploy their vicious nature against Republicans or against conservative Democrats-- only against progressive men in office. Especially Jewish progressive men in office.

EMILY's List was once an essential part of the progressive coalition. Their battles were the progressive community's battles and they were widely admired. There's been a lot of water under the bridge since then. We didn't really pick up on it until 2008, when EMILY's List recruited Nikki Tinker, a very conservative woman-- in conjunction with the corrupt reactionary Harold Ford Machine-- to run against pro-Choice champion, Congressman Steve Cohen in Memphis, Tennessee. Cohen is, by far, the most progressive federal elected official in Tennessee. Nikki Tinker is marginally pro-Choice by otherwise a raging conservative. Her campaign was so off-the-rails-- in terms of overt racism and anti-semitism directed at Cohen-- that then-Senator Obama took time out from his own campaign to embrace and endorse Cohen against EMILY's List's deranged onslaught against him. In the end, EMILY's List members were so nauseated by the group's tactics that they were forced to rescind their endorsement. But they waited until election day to do it! Obama, sickened by the tactics, had already said "These incendiary and personal attacks have no place in our politics, and will do nothing to help the good people of Tennessee. It's time to turn the page on a politics driven by negativity and division so that we can come together to lift up our communities and our country."

A politics driven by negativity and division is the EMILY's List trademark. They used it against Eric Garcetti, Marianne Williamson and Ted Lieu here in L.A. When I heard EMILY's List was sending one of their most thuggish operatives to Honolulu to take over the Hanabusa campaign against Senator Brian Schatz, I warned friends of mine in Hawaii that Brian would probably come under some kind of racist attack. And sure enough…

http://downwithtyranny.blogspot.com/2014/06/oh-please-not-more-emilys-list-anti.html#sthash.TKc1WwPF.dpuf

So since Hillary sought their endorsement does that mean she's guilty by association too?

[MADem]

115. Because "blogspots" are reliable sources of information. Please. nt

[NuclearDem]

106. Posted without comment:

[R B Garr]

108. OMG, THANK YOU. I was going to post about Reagan

in this thread but didn't think it was worth the hassle and abuse. Anyone who can skip over Reagan's monstrous policies to attack Hillary has some dubious motives. Especially considering.....never mind.

[betsuni]

112. ME TOO.

Motives... yes.

[Starry Messenger]

134. Thank you.

Breathtaking hypocrisy from the OP.

[zappaman]

110. It's too bad you weren't offended when you voted for Reagan

His callous and disgusting disregard for the LGBT community as AIDS, which he couldn't even say, ravaged their community, is a black stain on this country, IMO.

I guess you evolved, eh?

[MannyGoldstein]

120. I voted for Reagan in 1980. A difference between you and me is

that I observed his actions and realized I had made a mistake, and did not vote for him (or any other Republican, IIRC, again.

You, on the other hand, seem unable to evaluate evidence and adjust appropriately. Beyond decades of fighting to deny LGBT folks their human rights, Hillary exhorted her fellow Senators to vote for an insane war that caused millions of casualties in Iraq and cost trillions of dollars, has inflicted all manner of financial misery on those who aren't affluent, etc. Yet you feel that behavior has earned her a promotion? Use your head.

And, BTW, 1980 was before AIDS was even identified, so spare us the revisionist history.

[MannyGoldstein]

123. In 1980 I voted for Reagan despite his ignoring AIDS, which

wasn't identified as a disease until 1981.

Got it.

[riversedge]

114. It is offensive to me that you post such crap.

[MannyGoldstein]

121. LOL!

[emsimon33]

118. She has no moral compass

She will do and say whatever she thinks it will take to get votes and then she will sell us all out to her GMO, TPP, Wall Street, Walmart, big bank, for-profit prison, and military weapons friends.

[Boomer]

129. Yup, what you said

Over time I've realized that HRC doesn't "evolve" on positions due to a change in her perspective or values; she tracks popular opinion and shifts to reflect what is and is not accepted by a majority of the population at that time.

[Hepburn]

140. You nailed her M.O. perfectly...

...and it is so obvious to so many. Why are some fooled by her?

[bigwillq]

130. She is no fierce advocate. Never has been.

K and R

[bvar22]

143. That is just plain wrong.

While she was the Senator from Wall Street,
she fought fiercely against cartoon violence in video games,
while endorsing & advocating the extremely violent murders of a million REAL, Flesh & Blood, innocent people....
but cartoon violence was over the line for her.

[stillwaiting]

135. I'm gay and I agree with you. She was an opportunist with LGBT issues. Not a leader/champion. nt

[bigwillq]

145. .....

[randome]

136. Holy shit, the Tag-Team of Superiority (TTS, patent pending) strikes again!

Did you learn nothing from the Stockholm Syndrome thread? Un-fucking believable! So now you presume to speak for LGBT citizens? I would never think of doing that! You learn nothing, you contribute nothing with this stupid post. What's next? Asking women if they are sure they're dating the right person?

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Precision and concision. That's the game.[/center][/font][hr]

[Renew Deal]

141. What's new?

The sight of Hillary is offensive to you.

[Zorra]

144. As an LGBT person, I'm horrified at what I have discovered about Hillary's

struggle against our dignity, humanity, and rights.

She may have "evolved" since then, and that's great, but, for a Democratic candidate for POTUS, it's simply

Not Good Enough, Hillary.

[daleanime]

146. K&R.....

[BeanMusical]

148. Kick and R