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BlueCheese

(2,522 posts)
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 12:53 PM Dec 2015

Cleaning up a few questions about the Great Data Breach of 2015

The campaigns seem to have largely moved on from the episode of last week, in which several Sanders staffers accessed confidential data from the Clinton campaign. I commend them both for doing so. However, the supporters of the candidates seem unwilling to let it go quite yet. For whatever reason, a lot of Sanders supporters on DU and elsewhere are certain that their candidate is the wronged party. I've seen a lot of speculative claims they've made in their opinions, and I wanted to address them one by one. The conclusion, unfortunately, is that these claims are dubious-- they are at best highly exaggerated or distorted, and at worst, simply completely unsupported.

Much of what I write is based on these sources:
An Explanation of What Bernie Sanders Staffers Actually Did and Why It Matters
Here’s what happened with NGP VAN, the Sanders Campaign, and the Clinton Campaign
Audit Logs From NGP VAN
Data breach sets off charges of theft in '16 Democratic race
Fired Sanders aide: I wasn't peeking at Clinton data files


Q: Did the Sanders campaign take any action to retrieve confidential Clinton campaign data, or did it appear to them by accident?


A: Yes, they deliberately took action to get the data.

Sanders campaign staff and supporters have sometimes hinted that the NGP VAN breach caused confidential Clinton campaign data to be revealed to them or sent to them by accident, without them having to request it. Bernie Sanders himself made that claim at the debate:

A few days ago a similar incident happened. There was a breach because the DNC vendor screwed up, information came to our campaign. In this case, our staff did the wrong thing -- they looked a that information. As soon as we learned that they looked at that information - we fired that person. We are now doing an independent internal investigation to see who else was involved.


This is false, and it is disappointing that Sanders would imply something like that. The audit logs show that Sanders campaign officials conducted numerous searches specifically against data from Hillary For America. This was not a case of them retrieving their own data and getting unexpected extra results.

From Amy Dacey's report:

Even though the glitch opened access, users still needed to take deliberate steps to seek out such information.


Further, there was a real purpose to the data illicitly retrieved, as David Atkins reported:

However, the access logs do show that Sanders staff pulled not one but multiple lists—not searches, but lists—a fact that shows intent to export and use. And the lists were highly sensitive material. News reports have indicated that the data was “sent to personal folders” of the campaign staffers—but those refer to personal folders within NGPVAN, which are near useless without the ability to export the data locally.

Even without being able to export, however, merely seeing the topline numbers of, say, how many voters the Clinton campaign had managed to bank as “strong yes” votes would be a valuable piece of oppo. While it’s not the dramatic problem that a data export would have been, it’s undeniable that the Sanders campaign gleaned valuable information from the toplines alone.


So, this was a deliberate attempt to obtain rival campaign data. It was not an accident.

Q: Did the Clinton or O'Malley campaigns access any data they were not supposed to?

A: There is no evidence that they did so, despite insinuations they might have done so by the Sanders campaign, including Bernie Sanders himself.


At the debate, Bernie Sanders suggested that his campaign data have been ended up with the Clinton campaign.

I am not convinced that information from our campaign may not have ended up in her campaign. Don’t know that.


This was a very disappointing and completely unsupported accusation by Bernie Sanders, and a poor attempt at making a false equivalency. When the vulnerability was discovered, NGP VAN checked to see which campaigns may have accessed other campaigns' data, and the Sanders campaign was the only one found to have done so. There is simply no evidence at all of the Clinton or O'Malley campaigns doing anything wrong-- it is an accusation made out of thin air.

Q: Is it plausible that the Sanders campaign was merely trying to figure out the extent of the vulnerability?

A: This is not believable.


The since-fired national data director for Sanders' campaign, Josh Uretsky, has said that he was not actually trying to gain strategic benefit from accessing Clinton's data-- that he was merely trying to assess the scope of the problem.

In fact, the audit logs show the behavior of someone far more interested in finding strategically useful data about Clinton's support in early voting states. From the AP report:

Summaries of data logs provided to the AP show the Sanders team spent nearly an hour in the database reviewing information on Clinton's high-priority voters and other data from nearly a dozen states, including first-to-vote Iowa, New Hampshire and South Carolina.

Some of these voter lists were saved into a folder named "Targets," according to the logs. Uretsky's deputy appeared to focus on pulling data on South Carolina and Iowa voters based on turnout and support — or lack of support — for Clinton.


It is extremely implausible to me that an honest attempt to determine the scope of the vulnerability would require creating lists of persuadable voters into a Targets folder, repeated access by multiple users, and the sharing of the results with others. At the very least, the behavior of the Sanders staffers mimics exactly what someone motivated by strategic gain would do.

Q: Was it in fact the Sanders campaign that told NGP VAN about the vulnerability?

A: No.


There have been numerous claims online that it was the Sanders campaign that notified NGP VAN of the software glitch, as a way of justifying Uretsky's claim that he was innocently trying to determine the nature of the problem. However, this is not the case. Media reports say that it was NGP VAN that discovered its own vulnerability. From the CNN report:

Uretsky and his team notified people within the Sanders campaign of the breach on Wednesday and the news worked its way up the chain of command. After reporting it to the campaign, Uretsky said he intended to call the DNC to inform officials there. But before he could do that, the DNC called him.


Q: Did the same issue crop up in October of this year?

A: No, not with NGP VAN. However, there was a problem with another, unrelated system.


While the relevance of this claim is unclear to me, except as a way of emphasizing the error-prone nature of NGP VAN, it is one that has been made repeatedly. However, Uretsky said the previous issue was with another system. (See 5:25 in the linked interview.)

Q: Did something similar happen in 2008?

A: No. This is another unsupported accusation against the Clinton campaign, with minimal evidence.

Sanders supporters have claimed that the Clinton campaign took data from the Obama campaign in 2008 as a way of impugning Clinton's integrity, and saying that the DNC has acted inconsistently. The primary source for this claim appears to be a secondhand claim from the Sanders campaign's lawsuit against the DNC, which says only that there may have been an unintended transmission of data to the Clinton campaign. This is a far cry from the deliberate access of strategically useful data that was clearly off-limits.

See my earlier post

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251931208

for more details on this one.

Conclusion:

I'll let Atkins have the final word on this:

Still, the Sanders camp’s reactions have been laughable. It was their team that unethically breached Clinton’s data. It was their comms people who spoke falsely about what happened. The Sanders campaign wasn’t honeypotted into doing it—their people did it of their own accord. NGPVAN isn’t set up to benefit Clinton at Sanders’ expense—and if the violation by the campaigns had been reversed, Sanders supporters would have been claiming a conspiracy from sunrise to sundown. What’s very clear is that the Clinton camp did nothing wrong in any of this. Sanders campaign operatives did, and then Wasserman-Schultz compounded it by overreacting. And in the end, the right thing ended up happening: the lead staffer in question was fired, and the campaign got its data access back.

It’s also another reminder that armchair activists speculating about news stories would do well to actually get involved in campaign field activities. If you want to be involved in politics, there’s no substitute for actually doing the work to gain a real understanding of how and why campaigns and politicians behave as they do. There would be a lot fewer overwrought conspiracy theories, at the very least.
62 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Cleaning up a few questions about the Great Data Breach of 2015 (Original Post) BlueCheese Dec 2015 OP
K&R RandySF Dec 2015 #1
Thank you for this detailed explanation. I hope this will put the obfuscation to rest. BlueCaliDem Dec 2015 #2
Well, that's disappointing. Buzz Clik Dec 2015 #3
Rove dpatbrown Dec 2015 #46
Let me educate you a bit: Buzz Clik Dec 2015 #49
Let me get this right. dpatbrown Dec 2015 #50
Now you're just being silly. I ain't playing Buzz Clik Dec 2015 #54
So far, there has been one leader standing tall and taking action and that person is Bernie Sanders. Thinkingabout Dec 2015 #4
Except for that part in the debate... yallerdawg Dec 2015 #7
Hillary is up in the polls, her campaign workers are doing a good job, they do not need to copy Thinkingabout Dec 2015 #21
He was FORCED to submit to an audit!!! That's why Sanders was cut off! Sancho Dec 2015 #37
After the independent audit we will see who did what. All of the excuses will continue Thinkingabout Dec 2015 #41
This is respect post for you. Phlem Dec 2015 #57
I will wait for the result of an independent audit rather than taking DNC hacks at their word Bjorn Against Dec 2015 #5
The sources above are from... BlueCheese Dec 2015 #6
So not one neutral source, got it Bjorn Against Dec 2015 #10
You can't just deny every source that doesn't fit your worldview. BlueCheese Dec 2015 #11
And you can't deny that there has not been an independent investigation Bjorn Against Dec 2015 #12
An independent account of what? That there was a bug in the system? randome Dec 2015 #14
An independent account of how many times the firewalls went down... Bjorn Against Dec 2015 #19
Which would, in the end, benefit no one. randome Dec 2015 #22
Well blame that on the DNC as their handling of this has benefited no one Bjorn Against Dec 2015 #23
When DWS went to the press with this... ljm2002 Dec 2015 #28
Well Happenstance24 Dec 2015 #18
I would not support prosecuting Cosby without an independent investigation. Bjorn Against Dec 2015 #20
Sen Sanders will see more and more of this Swiftboating by the 1% that have the resources and rhett o rick Dec 2015 #15
Josh Uretsky is a Swiftboater? BlueCheese Dec 2015 #16
Isn't it amazing how much the 1% can do with unlimited funds? They will do anything to put rhett o rick Dec 2015 #35
Sanders is being swiftboated from within. This just keeps getting better. NCTraveler Dec 2015 #32
Thank you so much for taking time to pull this together and one Word... riversedge Dec 2015 #8
It took a long time, but I've seen these claims made repeatedly as if they were fact. BlueCheese Dec 2015 #9
Your reply is hardly unbiased angrychair Dec 2015 #25
I'm more than allowed to base my conclusions on what's known so far. BlueCheese Dec 2015 #27
In regard to your first question... ljm2002 Dec 2015 #29
I agree with you. BlueCheese Dec 2015 #30
To your points angrychair Dec 2015 #48
Thanks for this. Hopefully DUers will take the time to educate themselves. (eom) oasis Dec 2015 #13
They won't. eom 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2015 #52
It's nothing new. Zealots believe what they want to believe. (eom) oasis Dec 2015 #55
The lack of comprehension from so many is boggling Blue_Adept Dec 2015 #17
Your entire thread falls apart because... TheProgressive Dec 2015 #24
and if they really had dirt on Bernie retrowire Dec 2015 #44
K&R Starry Messenger Dec 2015 #26
I don't find your research convincing. It's another partisan smear. philly_bob Dec 2015 #31
No obligation to argue. BlueCheese Dec 2015 #33
Yeah, "smear" was strong. Should have said more neutral "assertions." /nt philly_bob Dec 2015 #39
Thank you for that. nt BlueCheese Dec 2015 #40
Great op. Thank you for taking the time. nt. NCTraveler Dec 2015 #34
K AND R! Thank you for info. JaneyVee Dec 2015 #36
An excellent summary... Sancho Dec 2015 #38
Worst of all, the Sanders campaign failed to inform Bernie himself! It wasn't till 24 hours after pnwmom Dec 2015 #42
Did Sanders say that? n/t winter is coming Dec 2015 #45
i wonder why the DNC gave him all his data back retrowire Dec 2015 #43
You forgot the minor detail that the DNC broke their contract with Sanders. jeff47 Dec 2015 #47
I like the way you laid this out, let me add one question to your deal here randys1 Dec 2015 #51
Don't give up your day job. Elmer S. E. Dump Dec 2015 #53
Not looking good for Bernie. Will he withdraw from the race? NurseJackie Dec 2015 #56
Bwahahaha! RichVRichV Dec 2015 #58
I acknowledged as much upthread. BlueCheese Dec 2015 #59
If they want to prove any claims then they should show the relevant log files. RichVRichV Dec 2015 #60
Amen to your last paragraph. murielm99 Dec 2015 #61
The ridiculous conspiracy theories that have been repeatedly dragged up... BlueCheese Dec 2015 #62

BlueCaliDem

(15,438 posts)
2. Thank you for this detailed explanation. I hope this will put the obfuscation to rest.
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 01:02 PM
Dec 2015

Sanders campaign staffers were wrong. No ifs, ands, or buts. Sanders is running a campaign of being an honest broker, a man of integrity, and a man of strong ethics and morals. This is damaging to all the above, and it's the reason his supporters are in panic mode trying to explain it away any which way they can.

It's not going to work.

and rec'd.

 

Buzz Clik

(38,437 posts)
3. Well, that's disappointing.
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 01:03 PM
Dec 2015

St Bernie told a few fibs. Some cracks appear in his perfection.

 

dpatbrown

(368 posts)
46. Rove
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 03:56 PM
Dec 2015

would be proud of you. To once again mock Bernie Sanders' honesty (St Bernie), a huge plus for him, is pathetic on your part. To bad honesty isn't contagious.

 

Buzz Clik

(38,437 posts)
49. Let me educate you a bit:
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 04:59 PM
Dec 2015

1) "St. Bernie" is aimed at his blind supporters at DU, not at Sanders himself.
2) Take a look at the OP and recognize exactly what Sanders knew at the time of the debate. If you watched the opening 30 minutes of the debate, you know quite well that he was not completely honest about what happened and how it happened.

I strongly suggest you back way off of the insults.

 

dpatbrown

(368 posts)
50. Let me get this right.
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 06:28 PM
Dec 2015

So when you wrote, "St Bernie told a few lies", you were saying that his blind supporters were the ones lying?? And then you also expect me to reach the same conclusion as you pertaining to the first 30 minutes?? If this is how you educate...??

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
4. So far, there has been one leader standing tall and taking action and that person is Bernie Sanders.
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 01:04 PM
Dec 2015

The leader has agreed to an independent audit, he has apologized and after the audit report is given then we can see if Sanders has responded properly, I am thinking he responded properly.

yallerdawg

(16,104 posts)
7. Except for that part in the debate...
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 01:13 PM
Dec 2015

where he speculated or implied that the Clinton campaign had his voter lists, and that would be part of the audit into his campaign's scandal.

Seems like a typical grasping politician to me - welcome to the Major Leagues!





Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
21. Hillary is up in the polls, her campaign workers are doing a good job, they do not need to copy
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 01:57 PM
Dec 2015

another campaign tactics. Looks like the Sanders campaign workers was trying to gain knowledge of a successful campaign.

Sancho

(9,205 posts)
37. He was FORCED to submit to an audit!!! That's why Sanders was cut off!
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 03:26 PM
Dec 2015

Sanders delayed for 3 days while refusing to submit to the DNC's request for an independent audit. The cut off was because the Sanders campaign would not cooperate.

After they were forced to give in, they got their data back. Meanwhile, who knows what they copied, destroyed, or studied that belonged to the Clinton campaign.

Crooks and liars!

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
41. After the independent audit we will see who did what. All of the excuses will continue
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 03:38 PM
Dec 2015

because some has to justify their actions. All of the "defenses" should be reserved for court rooms.

Phlem

(6,323 posts)
57. This is respect post for you.
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 11:01 PM
Dec 2015

I truly admire the way you are trying to prevent the continued smearing of both candidates and trying to let the independent audit continue.

I have let it go that way as well.

There is no sense in burning calories on something no one will truly ever know anything about until the audit is done.

We need to save our ammo for after that. Just kidding.

Peace brother. Merry Christmas.

BlueCheese

(2,522 posts)
6. The sources above are from...
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 01:09 PM
Dec 2015

... Washington Monthly, by someone with a lot of experience with NGP VAN,
an interview with Josh Uretsky himself,
audit logs from NGP VAN, vetted by news organizations,
a story from the AP,
the transcript of the debate,
and finally, yes, an article by a DNC member.

All of them are pointing in the same direction.

Bjorn Against

(12,041 posts)
10. So not one neutral source, got it
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 01:18 PM
Dec 2015

NGP VAN is the company that took down the firewall, they are hardly neutral in this.

BlueCheese

(2,522 posts)
11. You can't just deny every source that doesn't fit your worldview.
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 01:20 PM
Dec 2015

Josh Uretsky would be biased in favor of Sanders.

Bjorn Against

(12,041 posts)
12. And you can't deny that there has not been an independent investigation
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 01:30 PM
Dec 2015

Yes, Uretsky's bias would in favor of Sanders, NGP VAN and the DNC have different biases. What we are missing is any sort of independent account of what happened. You can not deny that lack of independent sources just because a few people with stakes in the game are saying things that fit your world view.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
14. An independent account of what? That there was a bug in the system?
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 01:36 PM
Dec 2015

I don't see how that benefits either campaign since no one is denying it.

Clearly Sanders thought Uretsky was culpable. So what more needs to be proven?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You have to play the game to find out why you're playing the game. -Existenz[/center][/font][hr]

Bjorn Against

(12,041 posts)
19. An independent account of how many times the firewalls went down...
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 01:49 PM
Dec 2015

An independent account of who had access to the data and what other data may have been compromised. An independent account of how the DNC responded when they were previously notified of security holes.

There are lots of unanswered questions and we need a full independent investigation to get those answers.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
22. Which would, in the end, benefit no one.
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 01:57 PM
Dec 2015

The MOST that your suspicions would net you is that the DNC or the vendor were negligent. How does that translate into anything positive for anyone?

Everyone would nod their heads and mutter that something ought to be done about that and nothing substantial would change.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You have to play the game to find out why you're playing the game. -Existenz[/center][/font][hr]

Bjorn Against

(12,041 posts)
23. Well blame that on the DNC as their handling of this has benefited no one
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 02:02 PM
Dec 2015

They made the choice to handle this in the media rather than internally, they can't expect us to ignore the fact that they failed to safeguard their network.

ljm2002

(10,751 posts)
28. When DWS went to the press with this...
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 02:57 PM
Dec 2015

...and started smearing the Sanders campaign (remember, they had taken immediate action on this and acknowledged it -- no attempt to cover anything up), not to mention denying them access to their data in clear breach of their contract -- at that point, she lost any moral high ground she might otherwise have had in this matter.

The reason a suit was brought, was to restore access to the data. And although DWS did restore access to the data rather than go before a judge for a ruling, the Sanders campaign has not withdrawn the suit.

The suit alleges damages due to breach of contract (withdrawing access from the data), and it also lists the terms of the contract that require the DNC and their vendor to maintain reasonable standards of data protection. If initial stories are true, then I would say the vendor was negligent -- BUT we don't know yet if those stories are true. In order to find out if there was a pattern of this sort of thing, the audit logs need to be examined so that it is all out in the open: any access by one campaign of data by another campaign, whether intentional or not. I should think each of the campaigns would want to know that.

Happenstance24

(193 posts)
18. Well
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 01:40 PM
Dec 2015

considering every story is saying the same thing, including stuff told by a once trusted Sanders staffer, I think the OP is right on. There hasn't been an independent account of what happened with Bill Cosby over the years but I'd bet hard currency you believe all those women over Bill any day. Right?

Bjorn Against

(12,041 posts)
20. I would not support prosecuting Cosby without an independent investigation.
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 01:55 PM
Dec 2015

I certainly don't trust Cosby and I personally believe he is guilty, but my personal beliefs about him are irrelevant. I would not support prosecution of anyone without an investigation.

(And yes, I realize that this independent investigation is not necessarily a criminal prosecution. That does not mean I have to trust the DNC however.)

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
15. Sen Sanders will see more and more of this Swiftboating by the 1% that have the resources and
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 01:37 PM
Dec 2015

will do literally anything to keep the power. The People will have a hard fight against the corruption of the big money that some worship so highly.

We do know that the DNC is working for Clinton.

BlueCheese

(2,522 posts)
16. Josh Uretsky is a Swiftboater?
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 01:38 PM
Dec 2015

The AP is in the tank for Clinton?
The debate transcript is biased?

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
35. Isn't it amazing how much the 1% can do with unlimited funds? They will do anything to put
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 03:24 PM
Dec 2015

Clinton in the WH. I think that should be a concern for Democrats that recognize that money in politics is not good.

 

NCTraveler

(30,481 posts)
32. Sanders is being swiftboated from within. This just keeps getting better.
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 03:16 PM
Dec 2015

One person fired, two suspended, and the cleaning of Sanders house ain't done yet. Keep pointing fingers as people are getting fired and suspended.

riversedge

(80,808 posts)
8. Thank you so much for taking time to pull this together and one Word...
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 01:13 PM
Dec 2015







Hillary for Iowa ‏@HillaryforIA Dec 19 Des Moines, IA

One word: presidential. #ImWithHer

BlueCheese

(2,522 posts)
9. It took a long time, but I've seen these claims made repeatedly as if they were fact.
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 01:17 PM
Dec 2015

I felt I had to straighten out the record.

I was disappointed that Bernie Sanders himself suggested his campaign may have gotten the data accidentally, or that Clinton's campaign might have his data, without any evidence, before honorably apologizing. I can only guess that his version of events is what his staffers told him. Weaver and Devine are not serving him well in their all-encompassing defensiveness.

angrychair

(12,280 posts)
25. Your reply is hardly unbiased
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 02:21 PM
Dec 2015

First, please stop calling them "data logs" because they are not. What everyone keeps calling "data logs" is a human created document that is, at best, an executive summary of a certain chain of events, they are not computer-generated event logs like a transaction log from an SQL database or an application event log generated from a Windows PC. Data logs would be meaningless to most people, unless you are an IT professional and have experience in the system they come from, they are nothing but gibberish. I would want the raw, system-generated, logs to be analyzed by an independent auditing firm by an actual IT professional with experience with VoteBuilder, before I am willing to commit to what did and did not happen. To be fair, log information is often very limited and sometimes downright ambiguous about events. I know, I've been looking at log files from all kinds of systems and applications for over 20 years and rarely are all the answers in them.

Second, you first state that the Sanders campaign couldn't have got the information on accident, which I agree with and actually so does the Sanders campaign, then say later on that the Clinton campaign could have in The 2008 event, cannot have it both ways.

Lastly, your explanation is right on some points (no data was removed or saved in folders, other than within the VoteBuilder software itself). Guessing, if not downright arguemenative, in other places.

Leave what actually happened to whatever independent firm examines the records.
To head off any flamming, I am not saying that things could not have been handled better on the Sanders side.

I am saying that mistakes are not a conspiracy.
That the DNC acted unprofessional and violated their contract.
That the Clinton campaign knew, by the time they went screaming to the press, that no actual data, voter list, had been removed from the VoteBuilder system. They inflamed the situation with information they knew was not true.

Whatever else did or did not happen will come from an independent auditing firm in three near future.

BlueCheese

(2,522 posts)
27. I'm more than allowed to base my conclusions on what's known so far.
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 02:33 PM
Dec 2015

Addressing a few of your points:

1. I agree that it looks like the publicly available logs were made human-readable by editing or automatic generation. However, are you suggesting that they've been manipulated or are otherwise false? For example, when it says

"Saved list "Turnout 30-69.99" into "Data Team" folder"

are you suggesting that someone did not save a list with that name into that folder?

2. Why can't it be true that the Sanders campaign accessed the data purposely, as has been reported by multiple news sources, and that whatever event may or may not have happened in 2008 was unintentional. The Sanders lawsuit, which seems to be the primary source of the 2008 event, says flat-out that it was "unintentional".

3. If Sanders supporters and the Sanders campaign are allowed to make sweeping statements about what they did or didn't do, who notified NGP VAN and who didn't, why do I have to wait until there's an independent investigation? That hardly seems fair.

4. The story was in the press and blowing up long before the Clinton campaign issued any press releases. I remember the first few articles I read said that the Clinton campaign declined to comment. To say that the Clinton campaign ran screaming to the press is an exaggeration. Further, as the Atkins article says, you can glean very valuable information without being able to store the saved lists.

5. While you caution me to wait for an independent investigation, you conclusively claim that "no actual data, voter list, had been removed from the VoteBuilder system." How do you know that? I actually believe it myself, but why doesn't this fall into the category of things that need to wait for an independent investigation? Finally, just because the Sanders staffers were foiled in their attempts to save data by their limited permissions, that doesn't mean they didn't have the intent to use the data, had the glitch not been discovered.

ljm2002

(10,751 posts)
29. In regard to your first question...
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 03:09 PM
Dec 2015

...about the publicly available log entries, that clearly are cleaned up for human consumption. I personally think they are real log entries and I have no problem with cleaning and abbreviating the format to make it clear for humans to see the information for themselves.

However, another common way to mislead in situations like this is to withhold information. If all you want to know about is this particular incident, then you limit your examination of the log to that 24-hour period. Voila! You have only one breach, and it shows dubious activity by the Sanders campaign, which was already known. But still, I am fine with showing this information. It is factual.

Okay. So if, as the Sanders campaign alleges, this has happened more than once, and the company appears to be somewhat lackadaisical in their response to such incidents, then it will be useful to examine all of the logs to see if there have been other transgressions, whether intentional or not, by any of the campaigns over the past few months.

BlueCheese

(2,522 posts)
30. I agree with you.
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 03:13 PM
Dec 2015

Looking at it myself, it's clear there has been some editing to make it more understandable.

angrychair

(12,280 posts)
48. To your points
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 04:34 PM
Dec 2015

1. I'm not saying that anything was manipulated or false. I have no way of determining such a conjecture since I have never seen the source data used to create that file. I am saying two things only:
- that what people refer to as a 'data log' is no such thing.
- that data logs are rarely complete records of events and information they do happen to contain can be ambiguous or confusing and rarely give enough information to tell a complete story.

2. I have no opinion on the validity of the 2008 incident, as I have not seen enough details yet but you stated that access to this information is always on purpose, in direct contention to the possibility of "unintentional". You point was that all access to information is on purpose. My opinion, a guess, is that they used the word as a diplomatic way of approaching the issue or as a subtle dig.

3. Then he clear it is an opinion, not a vetting of facts.

4. You only make my point here. I stated they made statements to the press at a point when they knew that no data, no voter lists, could have been "stolen" or removed from VoteBuilder. In fact the Clinton data steward would have known that from the beginning.

5. I know that these things are not taken because NGP VAN said they were not in their release on their own website:

"On Wednesday morning, there was a release of VAN code. Unfortunately, it contained a bug. For a brief window, the voter data that is always searchable across campaigns in VoteBuilder included client scores it should not have, on a specific part of the VAN system. So for voters that a user already had access to, that user was able to search by and view (but not export or save or act on) some attributes that came from another campaign."
http://blog.ngpvan.com/news/data-security-and-privacy

You stated:
"Finally, just because the Sanders staffers were foiled in their attempts to save data by their limited permissions, that doesn't mean they didn't have the intent to use the data, had the glitch not been discovered."
Is not supported by any Sanders campaign statements and public statements by the former Sanders data steward, already in the public domain.
I would assume that, given his knowledge and experience with VoteBuilder, and the way he created accounts and named files and folders, he was hardly being sneaky or employing the least amount of spycraft, to cover his tracks. Not sure what his intentions were with the information but his collection process was as subtle as a house fire.

Blue_Adept

(6,499 posts)
17. The lack of comprehension from so many is boggling
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 01:38 PM
Dec 2015

It's all emotionally based.

Why hasn't NGP VAN been fired? Because you can't just change horses mid-stream like that? And they do a lot more than just top tier campaigns? And as any company will tell you, there are always glitches in the system.

Firewall does not mean what so many seem to think it means.

There's a whole lot more but those two just kill me right from the start.

 

TheProgressive

(1,656 posts)
24. Your entire thread falls apart because...
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 02:09 PM
Dec 2015

Every single piece of so called facts and information comes directly from
Clinton's DNC. They can and have delivered only what they want you to know.

This data breach was nothing more than a hit piece on Sanders with an entrapment component.

retrowire

(10,345 posts)
44. and if they really had dirt on Bernie
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 03:55 PM
Dec 2015

they wouldn't be so eager to put this behind them.

just saying. common sense.

philly_bob

(2,433 posts)
31. I don't find your research convincing. It's another partisan smear.
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 03:14 PM
Dec 2015

I don't want to argue, but I'll wait for the independent audit, thank you.

BlueCheese

(2,522 posts)
33. No obligation to argue.
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 03:18 PM
Dec 2015

But I disagree with the characterization of what I wrote as a smear. I've provided sources and links. It's the claims that I'm arguing against are unsupported by facts, from what I can tell.

Sancho

(9,205 posts)
38. An excellent summary...
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 03:33 PM
Dec 2015

and a clear demonstration of what happened except one item.

Sanders campaign delayed two days after a request for an audit before compiling; and they only gave in when the DNC cut them off.

No one knows what they saved, studied, copied, or destroyed in those two days.

If they had not been cut off, they would never have fessed up. Meanwhile, one has to wonder if there is OTHER EVIDENCE of wrong-doing besides this breech that would be discovered by an audit? If you are willing to cheat and lie about one thing, then can you be trusted to follow the rules in other ways?

Exactly what was the reason for the delay?????

pnwmom

(110,260 posts)
42. Worst of all, the Sanders campaign failed to inform Bernie himself! It wasn't till 24 hours after
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 03:46 PM
Dec 2015

the problem was discovered that Bernie finally learned -- from Debbie Wasserman who called him personally. But his staffers had known for 24 hours without telling him.

retrowire

(10,345 posts)
43. i wonder why the DNC gave him all his data back
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 03:53 PM
Dec 2015

wonder why Hillary is reluctant to accept an independent audit?

lolol if they had real dirt on Bernie, Hillary wouldn't be so eager to put this little problem behind them.

sorry, your sources must be a little off.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
47. You forgot the minor detail that the DNC broke their contract with Sanders.
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 04:25 PM
Dec 2015

But that wouldn't tell the story you want to tell.

randys1

(16,286 posts)
51. I like the way you laid this out, let me add one question to your deal here
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 06:32 PM
Dec 2015

If everything, absolutely everything BlueCheese says is 100% accurate, did it make sense for DWS to go to the press instead of handle this in house given the damage it has caused BOTH CANDIDATES?

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
56. Not looking good for Bernie. Will he withdraw from the race?
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 08:46 PM
Dec 2015

Who knows? Maybe, maybe not. Should he consider dropping out? I don't know, but I'll bet many folks have their own strong opinions.

RichVRichV

(885 posts)
58. Bwahahaha!
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 11:51 PM
Dec 2015

I hope they're not trying to pass that off as an actual log file. It's not even cherry picking relevant lines from a log file. That is laughably human created. I look forward to the real access and command logs being released. Then we'll actually learn something.

BlueCheese

(2,522 posts)
59. I acknowledged as much upthread.
Mon Dec 21, 2015, 11:52 PM
Dec 2015

It's very likely an edited version that was meant to be human readable. But are you suggesting that they made it up?

RichVRichV

(885 posts)
60. If they want to prove any claims then they should show the relevant log files.
Tue Dec 22, 2015, 12:41 AM
Dec 2015

Or at least the lines from the log files that these were created from. If the average person can read them is irrelevant when showing proof, security and IT people will be able to understand them.


One thing that makes me suspicious of what they did show was with the time stamps. They took them all the way out to the second but didn't bother to fill in the second they happened on most of the lines. I wouldn't think much of it from a human log but they did set the seconds on a few lines to make them look more like legitimate logs. Why? Either present them as actual logs or present them as human sentences in a timeline.


To most people that would appear irrelevant, but I parse log files all the time. They don't work like that at all. And when showing proof of impropriety through logs, no one I know in IT would half ass that kind of work. Especially on something high profile. The work of showing proof is meticulous in the field for something like this. After all, our reputations are on the line.


I'm not stating anything they posted is untrue, just that it is surprisingly sloppy from what is presented.


Finally, a local save on the server won't give them remote access to the logs alone. The "logs" show only one actual download. It showed an export on "Sanders committee SQs". Was the file created from that search even Hillary related? Why are there no other exports in the logs? Why are there no logs of opening the files (they could be copied and pasted remotely that way)? Are there any ftp or scp logs for the server (where files could have been transferred off the server, assuming they had that level of access)? Either these logs are incomplete, the impropriety has been vastly overstated, or the hosting company was not properly logging everything.


I'm glad all of this is going to an independent audit regardless of culpability. There are a lot of questions that need answered from a security standpoint on this whole thing. If nothing else an independent security company will point out all the flaws in the system that need corrected.

murielm99

(32,988 posts)
61. Amen to your last paragraph.
Tue Dec 22, 2015, 01:39 AM
Dec 2015

Getting involved in campaign field activities is key to understanding how things work. If more people here had been activists who had used or been exposed to the VAN software, there would not be so much speculation. Most of it is just plain ignorant.

Yelling about who runs the company is silly, too. If you work on enough campaigns, you start to run into the same people. They are all Democrats, but they are hired to work for various campaigns. They might work for a big city mayoral race this year, and for a Congressional campaign next year. They have varying levels of expertise, but they are paid workers. They do this for a living, people! Get used to it! I know a few people who do this work. One is a friend of my two older children. He has worked for campaigns all over the Midwest. Now he works for a pac in DC. There are times that they go home after a campaign and wonder how they could have worked for someone they did not like or believe in. It happens.

BlueCheese

(2,522 posts)
62. The ridiculous conspiracy theories that have been repeatedly dragged up...
Tue Dec 22, 2015, 02:07 AM
Dec 2015

... are frankly embarrassing for a party that prides itself on being reality-based. This is stuff we usually see from the Republicans.

The idea that this whole episode could be taken as anything negative against Clinton-- when it was her data that was improperly accessed-- is mind-boggling.

And now it appears from multiple media reports that despite Sanders' apology, his campaign (including him personally) are still making unfounded accusations that Clinton's campaign somehow got ahold of their data. The apology is now ringing rather insincerely.

I can only imagine Sanders is being misled by his top aides-- Devine and Weaver in particular, who seem to have become such true believers that they're now more Catholic than the Pope, so to say. I'm guessing that as a presidential candidate and current U.S. senator, Sanders doesn't have the time to investigate what happened himself, and has to rely on their version of events.

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