Hillary or Bernie. NAFTA or The New Deal. Third Way or Bedrock Democratic Party Principles

[stupidicus]

I'd have thought most of if not all of this to be common knowledge, but then maybe that's because for many of us old hippy types, it's been a history we've lived through and only expect more of http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bill-clinton-is-sorry_55a83397e4b0896514d0e220 out of another Clinton presidency. I'd like to see it become common knowledge if for no other reason than to eliminate any and all other reasons to support a HC candidacy over a BS one other than the fact that her supporters support her 3rdway ways, and that's about it. If that's the case, well, then they are properly branded, no? Just spare us the apologies in the future, and take your medicine quietly when the "we told you sos" commence should she win...lol

Hillary or Bernie. NAFTA or The New Deal. Third Way or Bedrock Democratic Party Principles

The Democratic Party is on the verge of selecting its candidate for the 2016 Presidential Election.

I do not think it is an understatement to say that this primary election is a battle for the Soul of the Democratic Party. This is not to say that one side or the other is somehow soul-less. It is rather, a sober acknowledgement that there are significant differences between the two opposing sides. This is not just window-dressing. These are deep ideological differences.

The winner will likely chart the course of the Democratic Party for at least the next 10 years. With so much at stake, it behooves all of us to take a look at our differences squarely in order to decide which type of Democratic Party we wish to be and why.

I will vote for Bernie Sanders and a renewal of the promise of the New Deal. Hillary Clinton does not earn my vote because IMHO she is the embodiment of Third Way triangulation that has taken the Democratic Party incrementally to the verge of irrelevance as a force for good in the lives of Working Class Americans. http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2015/12/27/1463249/-Hillary-or-Bernie-NAFTA-or-The-New-Deal-Third-Way-or-Bedrock-Democratic-Party-Principles

[cantbeserious]

1. When We Stand Together - No Citizen Need Settle For The Lesser Of Two Corporate Evils - Go Bernie Go

eom

[FreakinDJ]

4. Word Brother

[daleanime]

2. Massive K&R.....

[libdem4life]

3. Calling myself an FDR Social Democrat now.

[MohRokTah]

5. Sanders doesn't represent anything close to the values of the Democratic Party.

He's only been a Democrat for a few weeks, seeking the nomination to the highest office in the nation.

That means he is clearly a Democrat In Name Only.

[CoffeeCat]

9. Sanders is more of a Democrat that Clinton could ever hope to be

Since when is hiring neocon Robert Kagan, as a foreign-policy adviser, part of "Democratic values"? He was one of the founding members of the PNAC/neocon movement, for Pete's sake.

Since when is taking campaign bribes from powerful Wall Street interests a cherished "Democratic value"?

Since when is taking money from the for-profit prison system a "Democratic value", especially knowing that a disproportionate number of African Americans are thrown into prison and jail?

Since when is it a "Democratic Value" to call the TPP "the gold standard", then come out against it a week before it passes--rendering your opposition meaningless and hollow?

What "Democratic value" was Hillary channeling when she smeared Barack Obama during the 2008 primary, sending in her surrogate, Bob Kerrey to refer to him as, "Barack Hussein Obama" during a time when the Republicans were lying about Obama being a Muslim?

Since when is it a "Democratic value" to champion and spearhead turning Libya into a failed, violent state--once again destabilizing the Middle East which is precisely what the neocons want?

Since when do Democrats count Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan and Citibank among their top campaign contributors?

Those surely aren't Democratic values! Not the Democratic party that I've been supporting since 1975!!

[MohRokTah]

12. hat's the most absurd assertion I've ever read.

Sanders has been anti-Democratic throughout most of his political career.

He knows nothing about Democratic values and certainly does not represent him.

Nobody could be more of a DINO than Sanders.

That's by definition. He is nothing like any real Democrat ever.

[shawn703]

17. Except FDR, the gold standard of Democrats

[MohRokTah]

23. BWAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

FDR was DESPISED by the Socialists, the Socialist Democrats and everybody else remotely to the Left!

Once again, you've proved my assertion that Sanders and the extreme Left are DINOs who have no resemblance to anything expressing true Democratic values.

[shawn703]

30. What exactly is your point, that FDR was or was not a role model for Democrats?

[humbled_opinion]

35. You points are nonsensical...

All you have done is proven how far Ronnie Raygun has pulled America to the right so in your view minor changes that bring about social equality get trounced on as EXTREME. Typical for you Republican lite types...If Hillary secures the nomination thanks to the votes of good people that get hoodwinked into thinking that she is a real Progressive only to do an about face on her positions in the General Election, your type won't mind because you really don't care about the issues, you care about the cult of personality, it makes me ill to think that we have a real chance to even the playing field and some that just don't get it will ultimately blow up the whole thing.... I still have hope she will be indicted over her email scandal before the primaries are over....

[kenfrequed]

38. You shouldn't bother

There seem to be a lot of third way sorts on this message board trying to redefine DINO. The poster above is one of them. I have caught at least two others trying to shift the definition of that term because they cannot stand on policy. To them it is all about the name of something or the spin of something.

Just be grateful that most of us are just as active offline as online and remember that there is a fair contingent that come here just to argue.

[99th_Monkey]

64. That one must be fresh-out of the focus groups

I hadn't seen it before today.

[JDPriestly]

29. Maybe Bernie would have joined the Democratic Party earlier in his career,

had the Democratic Party stuck with the values of FDR and not sold out to Wall Street and the corporations.

I'm glad that he chose to run as a Democrat. It's great to welcome good people to the Democratic Party.

[Docreed2003]

31. If Sanders is so anti-Democrat, as you suggest...

They why on earth would he caucus with Democrats? Why would democrats in the senate put him in leadership positions on various committees? Judging by your posts you seem to have an extreme dislike bordering on hatred for all things Sanders. Pulling the party back to the left and its historical positions isn't a bad thing, far from it. The party leaders, it would seem in the last 25 years, have positioned themselves to be center-left on their best days and center-right on their worst. The party's left leaning voices are no less important than those of the center. Sanders felt that he couldn't identify as a Dem because he didn't recognize the modern Democratic Party as being representative of its roots, and that's his right. To suggest that Sanders is a false Democrat or misrepresenting himself now, is being less than honest. Sanders entered the race, I believe, as an attempt to move the party back to the left, and that message has gained great traction. While polls would suggest that Sec Clinton has the nomination in the bag, I would submit that even if that is the case, the party would take a great step forward by tapping into the energy and the concerns of those who are supporting Sen Sanders. Choosing to ignore those individuals will be a disaster, I feel, for the future of the party.

[99th_Monkey]

65. THIS ^ n/t

[99th_Monkey]

63. That us utter nonsense. Bernie caucuses with Dems for DECADES, yet is anti-Democratic

Thanks for a good laugh anyway.

[99th_Monkey]

61. +1000000!!!! n/t

[humbled_opinion]

14. Well if by values you mean

Bernie doesn't follow the DNC establishment rules and lies to people about his true positions just to win elections and then screw over those that actually vote for the Democratic nominee than you are correct, do you support those values?

[MohRokTah]

16. Oh, I ABSOLUTELY believe Sanders lies about his true positiions just to win elections. eom

[shawn703]

18. Drinking the Clinton Kool-Aid I see

She relies on people believing things that aren't true in order to gain support. Looks like she has you firmly in her corner.

[840high]

27. There is only one panderer in the race. Hillary.

[humbled_opinion]

34. Yeah and you have some specifics

of where Senator Sanders changed said positions? Didn't think you had any....

[Ikonoklast]

68. Look at his voting record.

You are being deliberately obtuse.

Or willfully ignorant.

[JackInGreen]

76. Have you noticed

the longer this has gone on the more ya'll have sounded like the ragged people in shredded clothing at the wee hours of night screaming at the sky pushing your handcarts down the empty, empty downtown street where people used to live? Don't you want help? or are you so wrapped up in the rage and passion of 'HILRY ONLEE' that you've lost sight of anything that doesn't have Hillaries smiling face rocketing upward like the cherry on top of a very evolved and ever changing sundae?

[jalan48]

20. Are you digging on NAFTA and the TPP? Democratic Party principles are they?

[MohRokTah]

26. I completely agree with and fully support both internaitonal traade agreements.

We live in a global economy and the sooner we recognize it, the better off we will be economically.

[jalan48]

33. I like the women and kids that are tied to their machines in SE Asia. My favorite part.

[humbled_opinion]

36. Sure as long as you can

support Walmart by getting hour low cost slave labor items nobody really gets hurt do they? How do you live with yourself?

[99th_Monkey]

67. That must be why most, if not all unions, HATE the NAFTA/TPP job-killers. FAIL. nt

[PyaarRevolution]

80. I don't understand.

I'm not against trade, rather I support Fair Trade and trade agreements that don't overlook human rights violations and discourage a living wage.
I also support the Constitution and oppose a treaty that seeks to dismantle it and all sorts of labeling and regulations, especially that of GMO's. The Free Market only works properly by being as transparent as possible and that especially includes labeling. As for regulations I'm not interested in seeing our country head backwards on environmental regulations because it costs a company profits and they can sue us for that money according to the TPP.
What I'm hearing from you is "We live in a global economy and the sooner we recognize it and try to compete, the better off we will be economically". I find it unfair and ridiculous that I should have to compete with some worker in China getting paid .10 a day directly according to the WTO's rules. They should have to match our OSHA standards in the workplace and we should have to match Europe's. There's more but that's just a footnote.
The bottom line is that the TPP is a nightmare not just for the worker around the world but for those concerned about affordable medical care.
I don't understand you MohRokTah. Your attitude on the TPP is either blissful ignorance or you're a paid shill it feels like. If you're the former, read up. If you're the latter, you should be ashamed as giving Monsanto any leeway to push GMO's under a trade framework like this puts our species at risk I believe. I hope you will wake up if the latter and think like the Iroquois do for humanities future.

[CorporatistNation]

22. Agree With CoffeeCat... Dear HillBill Advocate(s)...

It IS About Policy Direction...

It IS About Personal, Professional and Political Integrity...

It Is About A Politicians Personal AND Public History...

It Is About Truth AND Integrity of Voice, Action AND Purpose.

Hillary Fails Miserably in each of these areas not by any one person's opinion but rather by her historical record of statements, actions and relative stability in a number of areas as well as her cohort of support.

Just as the rest of us are responsible for our actions and decisions, so too is one Hillary Rodham Clinton.

Ya know BIG BIZNESS, Wall Street, The Corporate Oligarchy.... Hillary iS a 1%'er of the First Order, whereas Bernie has sought to serve the needs of the more ordinary among us for around 50 years and continues along that path.

If one is objective the choice of which candidate to support in the Democratic Primary is quite simple... There is but one and his name is Bernie Sanders.

[murielm99]

25. Thanks for being brave enough to

call him exactly what he is. It is not a popular position around here.

[stupidicus]

52. sorry, your erroneous if not fallacious declarations are meaningless

I'm an atheist, but that hardly means I can't agree with or champion Judeo-Xtian "values"

[upaloopa]

6. Talking points or solutions

We have all heard Bernie's talking points by now.

No substance just a litany of what is wrong.

[cantbeserious]

7. This Citizen Has Heard HRC Spin Tales In Pitch Prefect Corporate Tones - This Citizen Is Not Buying

eom

[humbled_opinion]

15. You hear what you want to hear

I have heard many solutions with plenty of substance but Bernie doesn't have a vagina so I guess he can't meet everyone's expectations....

[840high]

28. Bingo. Thanks.

[stupidicus]

53. those who declare he's "proposed no solutions"

are fullofit

https://www.google.com/search?q=Bernie+Sanders+proposed+solutions&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

[MeNMyVolt]

8. Why not not give us just one cite from the proposed treaty that you hate..

Then you tell us why you don't like it, and some may provide a counterpoint. Good chance I may agree with you.

[senz]

40. You know darn good and well the TPP is kept under wraps.

Those who have been allowed to read it have not been allowed to photograph or take notes.

In a democratic society with a democratic government, such secrecy should not exist on a trade agreement decided by the elected representatives of the people.

[stillwaiting]

47. Where in the world have you been? Specifics have been discussed here many, many times. nt

[stupidicus]

54. good grief

http://inthesetimes.com/article/18695/TPP_Free-Trade_Globalization_Obama

[WillyT]

10. HUGE K & R !!! - Thank You !!!

[Spitfire of ATJ]

11. What made the party win or what makes it lose.

[appalachiablue]

13. The basic question, NAFTA or the NEW DEAL. Terrific!

K & R

[Attorney in Texas]

19. Clinton is -- by far -- the best of the Republican candidates this election cycle.

[stupidicus]

60. lol

that's the case being made alrighty

sadly it goes right over the head of her supporters

[azmom]

21. Kick

[JDPriestly]

24. Excellent review of the history of the Democratic Party

since the Great Depression.

It's time for Bernie. It's time for the American people.

[stupidicus]

55. I agree with all of that.

eom

[uponit7771]

32. FDR hand an >70% PROGRESSIVE congress throughout his 4 terms as president...

... Sanders and Clinton will most likely have a 30% progressive congress.

Why should we take a chance on Sanders when neither are going to be get a ton of stuff done?

tia

[humbled_opinion]

37. Why do you refuse to see the power

that a Senator Sanders Democratic nominee for President of the United States will do for all of us? He will win in a landslide you folks are so caught up on personality you have stopped listening to the message.... The message is what will win, Hillary does not convey the same message as Bernie does... She remains part of the past part of the Wall Street problem, she may have started with good intentions but she is an insider like it or not and she cannot or will not see the problem or fix the problem.

[uponit7771]

44. I'm waiting for an answer to the question of why take a chance on Sanders. I don't believe Clinton..

... is evil and wants to give wall street all of everyones money if they're going to get the same outcome with congress why take a chance on Sanders?

[humbled_opinion]

48. When have you ever heard

a Democratic Candidate for President say the things that Senator Sanders says? I think you miss the point about the majorities that the message of Bernie will bring and the demand by the people, to fix the income inequality... The message will force congress to act, have you forgotten the powerful message and visual of OWS ? I see Bernie as the things Obama forgot to do, President.... and as far as your point about taking a chance.... I think we make a larger mistake and take a much riskier chance nominating a failed Secstate that is largely responsible for many of the problems the world is facing today from her vote for the IWR to her failure to stop or at least tamp down the global slaughter that we see happening before our eyes...She cannot point to a single positive accomplishment as Secstate that in itself is terrible but worse her time there is marred by her personal decision to create a home server for email usage and storage, now we have to worry about an indictment for spillage of classified information, why take that chance on Clinton???

[hedda_foil]

39. And how, pray tell, do you think he got those big majorities?

[uponit7771]

45. Republicans were demonized until around 37 and then tied to the banks and Wall Street...

... which made the pretty much poison.

None of the dem candidates are willing to tie the GOP to wall street

[senz]

41. He knows where he stands, he is no neophyte, he will have the trust of the people.

The millions of Americans energized by his political revolution will put immense pressure on our corrupt, bought-and-sold legislators. It may take time, but Bernie knows where we want to go and the path to get there.

He won't compromise our rights to rich cronies like Hillary and the Republicans would do. He won't roll over and give up like you seem to be doing right now.

[uponit7771]

46. There have been progressives who had the trust of the people in the last 100 years but they

... had a congress to go along with them.

Trust is different from authority

and come on, this is the third of forth reply with "Hillary is for the rich only"...

based of her record

No one who supports Hillary believes that, hell... even Sanders couldn't outline what Hillary has done for Wall Street when asked straight up on during a national debate !!

[humbled_opinion]

49. You don't believe your lying eyes ?

She gets a large portion of her support, money, backing form wall street fat cats... It is public record, do your due diligence before blindly voting and later claiming ignorance as if you didn't know why she acted like she did.....That is the definition of sycophant...

[uponit7771]

70. My ears and eyes were hearing and seeing Sanders non answer on the question of what Hillary has

... done for wall street.

Again, if no one can point out what she has done in regards to a quid pro quo for wall street by now then they're making a weak case for her doing so in the future

The "she'll sell us out" is a warning worth note but not strong enough to swing a vote because she hasn't really done anything for them to date....

as Sanders has pointed out in inadvertently no?

[humbled_opinion]

71. You can't have it both ways

Your vote for Hillary cannot be taken back once cast.... She has proven time and again she is not trustworthy, so you get what you elect. I will vote for Bernie Sanders proudly and knowing that he is not going to flip flop on any of his positions....You act like Hillary doesn't have a past.... LOL funny how that works..

[uponit7771]

72. NONE of the candidates, including Sanders, can throw a stone... I think that's one of the biggest

... points of disagreement between Sanders and Clinton is none of them have been an Obama coming into this race.

Hillary is trust able ENOUGH...

I'll vote for Hillary proudly too, she'll continue a progressive future looking at her TOTAL past (not just snippets that fit a meme) and the same with Sanders.

Now, Sanders will squeeze their minerals more but still not enough to take the chance on him...

He's got to be more different in the area of getting something done with a gerrymandered congress than just his past credentials..

just my take

[stupidicus]

56. why should "we" take a chance on Clinton?

since the likelihood of her pursuing rightwing-friendly policies is much higher.

oh that's right, that was what your less than stellar dodge was intended to avoid, no?

[senz]

42. Thank you for the link, stupidicus. This is valuable material. Strongly recommended.

[Live and Learn]

43. K&R nt

[colsohlibgal]

50. It Is That Simple

Love the rotating dogged Hillary supporters on here. Some are here for awhile then gone, replaced by new, I suppose they are moved around.

The "DINO" charge is actually true, just not in a bad way, far from it, the DLC sold the Democratic Party to the highest bidders some years ago and here we are.

The talking point that NAFTA/CAFTA and now the TPP is good for average citizens is mind boggling. You wonder if anyone really believes that or if it is a hasty talking point.

[stupidicus]

59. well, you might also notice that they do the same in support of their fellows

I think they do that because they can't be a juror in a thread they are participating in.

I don't think many see the TPP that way, it's just that Hillarians are all ready to support her supporting it if she does an about face on it.

[leftupnorth]

51. I know one thing, my Abuela wouldn't approve of the third way triangulating neoliberal "democrats"

But my Abuela is a kind and perceptive woman.

[stupidicus]

57. mine wouldn't either if she were alive today

eom

[CharlotteVale]

58. K&R

[NCTraveler]

62. Clinton all the way.

We must continue to build off the success of Obama.

[ucrdem]

66. FDR's America is no place I'd want to return to.

A better metric might be JFK's New Frontier and that I think is where Bill, Barack and Hillary want to take us.

[99Forever]

69. Huge K.R

[Progressive dog]

73. Sanders has had a picture of Eugene Debs in his office for decades,

so even he doesn't believe he is an FDR Democrat. Debs party fielded candidates against FDR.

[stupidicus]

74. and?

exactly what does that undermine or rebut?

[Progressive dog]

75. That's Obvious

[stupidicus]

77. to a fabricator maybe

what's next, he opposes SS and all the other fruits of the New Deal?

[Progressive dog]

78. Rela Democrats not only support the fruits of the New Deal

they don't have political heroes like Eugene Debs. Most Democrats become Democrats before their seventh decade.

[stupidicus]

81. meaningless garabge and "says you"

and none of which undermines the content of this TP in any way

[Progressive dog]

82. Thank you for your substantive reply

I expect many more.

[stupidicus]

83. thanks for conceding that the meaningless garbage designation

was accurate and called for.

[Progressive dog]

84. How clever of you

to put words in my mouth.

[Progressive dog]

79. The OP claims the heritage of FDR for Bernie in spite

of the fact that Bernie chose to not be a Democrat until now and his hero, Eugene Debs, was a socialist and not a Democrat,