My biggest problem with Sanders is that he promises a lot of free stuff, paid by other people

[hill2016]

Last edited Mon Dec 28, 2015, 11:01 PM - Edit history (1)

I absolutely hate politicians who do that.

(1) Look at how ACA was passed. All the benefits were promised upfront but all the costs were hidden. Why do you think the Cadillac tax keeps getting delayed? Because really nobody (not even the unions) want to pay for other peope's health care.

(2) Look at how all the state pension and health care plans are so under-funded. Politicians like to promise benefits but shaft the costs onto someone else ("the next guy&quot or "the next generation".


This is not integrity. This is buying votes.

Until Sanders gives a full accounting of who is paying for all the things he is promising, I will always keep questioning his policies.

Look at how in the second debate he couldn't even say what the highest marginal tax would rise to!

When reality meets the road, not even Vermont wanted to pay for single payer!

[Enrique]

1. why do you have a Hillary avatar

you should have Paul Ryan.

[Ned_Devine]

2. Dude, don't take that bait

[Juicy_Bellows]

29. Great advice.

This one is long gone.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

3. Isn't that exactly what Mitt Romney claimed during the last election -

that Obama was just promising to give people (and you know what kind of people he meant) "free stuff"? Sounds like a pretty GOP-ish complaint to me. God forbid we should have a government that actually helps people.

[Enrique]

7. yes, and more recently Jeb Bush

both used that exact phrase from this OP, "free stuff", and both were talking about black voters, though Jeb was more explicit about it.

[dflprincess]

48. And you see the conservatives in the Strib's comment section constantly

accusing the Democrats of "buying" voters by offering "free stuff" to them.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

50. GAHHH! I never read the comments section.

It makes me want to become a hermit. (Somebody recently described Donald Trump as the comments section made flesh. Sounds about right.)

[hedda_foil]

73. Why yes. Yes it is. But in light of the OP's posting history and the uproar of the day ...

Let's see, now. From all evidence to date, the poster is 100% for Mrs. C, often posting her campaign's memes of the day while they're still hot from the printer. Today's meme has been to attack Bernie for appealing to a subset of potentially moveable Trump voters from the left., by pretending that he's pursuing the racist crazies that Trump attracts.

Put that together with this attack from the right, which seems custom tailored to appeal to establishment Republicans.

What it looks like to me is that team H is worried about Bernie's populist appeal to those potential Trump supporters who are protesting the raw deal they've gotten in this rigged economy. So they're floating this attack from the right as an opening play for establishment Republican voters.

I don't see it working at this point, but it might appeal to the Romney types.

Just my opinion.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

4. That's precisely how Republicans feel about taxes. But you know this. nt

[hill2016]

25. Ok

Why did the unions push so hard to get the cadillac tax delayed?

Because that's also exactly how they feel about taxes

[awake]

5. What is the highest marginal tax rate would you like to see?

and at what income would it start at?

[doc03]

6. I agree he has good intentions but there is not a chance he can

pass any of the stuff he is promissing.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

12. Campaign rhetoric is aspirational.

It's what the candidate wants to have happen and is evidence of their basic philosophy. I'm sure Sanders understands that Congress will not agree to everything he wants. But what I'm also sure he knows is that you always start out negotiations asking for more than you expect to get. You don't limit yourself by asking only for what you think the other side will let you have. That way you get even less.

[HoneychildMooseMoss]

46. Even FDR didn't get everything he wanted

But at least he tried, and he got a lot of what he wanted.

[kacekwl]

56. This is exactly why he says he will need

our help to pressure those who want to keep the same old same old. If we want what he proposes we need to tell congress so in no uncertain terms. Political Revolution remember.

[Hiraeth]

8. Trust me, the 1% can afford it. Do you have offshore accounts on some small island?

[hill2016]

30. Yes actually

i file them under fatca and fbar every year

[morningfog]

35. That explains your out of touch-ness.

[Cassiopeia]

54. Ahhhh

Now I get it.

[Logical]

65. Lol, no wonder you love her! Nt

[Live and Learn]

74. ROFL

[demmiblue]

9. Is your next OP going to go on about those free-loading welfare queens?

Ya know, the ones who drive Cadillacs?

The bizarro-world republispeak, even among those who proclaim themselves to be progressive-socialists, is just...

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

13. Ah, yes, the 47-percenters?

In the immortal words of Mitt Romney: "There are 47 percent who are with (Obama), who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims, who believe the government has a responsibility to care for them, who believe that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing, to you-name-it." Those people? The ones who are buying steak and lobster with their food stamps?

I'm really grossed out to see an opinion like the OP on DU.

[m-lekktor]

10. Rush is that you? jesus christ.

why are you even a Democrat?

[Doctor_J]

43. he's not.

He's a Hillary supporter

[cali]

11. Your post is boilerplate repuke rhetoric, or more accurately, bullshit.

[MissDeeds]

16. +1

[juxtaposed]

14. i just read what's spouted 24/7 everyday of the year on hate radio, fox news, and rightwing

sites. The rabbit hole is deep.

[Bjornsdotter]

15. My guess...

...is that we would pay for it like every other country which already has all of these common benefits. It's really not a radical idea.

[m-lekktor]

17. it's a radical idea to a right wing asshole! nt

[hill2016]

26. Which is

Much higher taxes on the middle class

Don't see Sanders mentioning it

[morningfog]

36. But you use a fucked up, slanted definition of middle class.

So we have no way of knowing what your actually saying.

[MeNMyVolt]

18. Hate to say, but I think we're done.

I somewhat get what you're saying, but man, say it a little better. End-of-line.

[niyad]

19. yawnnnnnnnn

[Autumn]

20. How Romneyesque.

I absolutely hate republicans who do that, you know all those tax breaks and subsidies for their corporate sponsors and those who like unpaid for wars.

[Karma13612]

37. ^^^^^this^^^^^^

[bowens43]

21. you questions his policies because you blindly fall in to line behind hillary.....

she will never be president, you're working for the Republicans. If she gets the nomination the republicans get the oval office.

[KingCharlemagne]

34. She's Adlai Stevenson, v 2.0. Unfortunately for the

American people, the Republicans aren't running a Socialist like Ike this year (ht Sanders

[dflprincess]

52. If you are referring to Adlai Stevenson II, the presidential candidate in '52 and '56

he was a good liberal and you shouldn't insult him this way.

[KingCharlemagne]

57. Goldwater Girl Hillary isn't fit to lick

the soles of Stevenson's shoes. But she'll go down in a similar blaze of glory. Hopefully only once in 2016 and not a second time in 2020.

[Douglas Carpenter]

22. "free stuff" - that was Romney's words - classic rightwing talking points

Are you a Democrat? You sound very rightwing - borderline rightwing extremist.

"Free stuff 'paid for by other people' to buy votes" - I don't believe you would be happy with Hillary or any other Democrat for that matter. That's simply no how any of us Democrats think. Even most centrist/conservative dems would see your words as far right talking points.

Sen. Sanders is not proposing anything that is not established orthodoxy in most western democracies. You didn't know that?

[hill2016]

27. Has he mentioned the costs as well

The much higher taxes on the middle class that would be required?

[hill2016]

31. hillary doesn't promise all sorts of free stuff

Which is why I'm happy with her policies.

They are sensible and affordable.

[Karma13612]

41. And they don't cover all the citizens.

They only cover subsections of the population. That smacks of class divisions and deciding who is worthy of being raised up.

Bernie is inclusive, Hillary is divisive.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

51. Well, she should.

"Free stuff" (e.g., child care, education, medical care) is one of the reasons the Scandinavian countries are considered by their citizens to be the happiest in the world. Yes, their taxes are higher, so the free stuff isn't really free. But since these countries are democracies, presumably their citizens prefer to pay for these things through taxes, a far more efficient means than overpaying insurance companies and for-profit schools as we do here, enriching the 1% to our detriment.

[hill2016]

58. Then why not

Ask the American people which is also a democracy whether they would like to pay for these things through higher taxes?

That's the part I think Sanders is not being upfront with.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

60. He's made it perfectly clear that he wants some people to pay more taxes.

But those people would be the wealthy, not the middle class. As it is now, wealthy people pay a lesser percentage of their income in taxes (that's all taxes, including federal, state, local and FICA) than everybody else. I recall Warren Buffet said his secretary paid more taxes (as a percentage of income) than he did. People in this country have been so brainwashed into thinking that everything should be privatized and all government programs (and therefore taxes) are bad - even though, for example, Medicare is actually more efficient than private insurance - that it's hard to get that message across. It doesn't help that some people who call themselves Democrats are singing from the same hymnbook as the GOPers.

[zazen]

61. no, Hillary maintains "free stuff" for health ins co's, Wall Street, rest of 1%

You know, the stuff the rest of us are paying for through loss of decent jobs, exorbitant health care expenses, exorbitant college tuition prices, grossly overpriced housing, lack of safety net for unemployed, disabled, elderly who require assisted living, their caregivers, environmental degradation . . .

[Live and Learn]

75. Sensible and affordable? You mean we can't afford education and health care for all

because you don't want to have to share your wealth? Well, I have news for you, I am tired of having to pay your share and mine when I donate to the homeless and a myriad of other causes because I can't turn my back on them.

Time for you and all the other wealthy individuals to pay your fair share.

Please remember that it is only by the approval of the masses that you have any wealth. It can be taken away at any time. I suggest you willingly help out before that happens.

[tokenlib]

23. We'll just go back to the marginal rates of the "good ole days"....

Even if we move in the direction of what they were in the 1950s and 60s..it would be an improvement. I will grant you one thing, I dislike the phrase "free" college education. We need to emphasize that we as a society will pay for it..by progressive taxation. Using the word "free" only gives ammo to the tea baggers so they can go on their "giving away free stuff" rants.

[Skittles]

24. you sound like a teabagger

[arcane1]

28. Copy/paste nt

[romanic]

32. "Free Stuff"

hmmm...

[Dawson Leery]

33. K/R

Bernie and Trump have much in common. Both will be tied up by their unenforceable promises.

[thereismore]

38. Such tripe. Bye now. nt

[NuclearDem]

39. Don't go down that road.

I'm not a Sanders supporter by any stretch of the imagination, but that's just pure Republican, "welfare queen", 44% horsecrap.

[one_voice]

40. What? Nothing about Obama phones?

[Doctor_J]

42. damn. how come I clicked on democratic underground, and a post from freeperville appeared?

Was this your own creation, or did you copy and paste it from freeperville?

[think]

44. Single payer isn't "free stuff". Google "single payer" & "free stuff" and see who agrees w/you.

Heck. Here ya go:

https://www.google.com/search?q=single+payer+%22free+stuff%22&rlz=1C1CHWA_enUS597US597&oq=single+payer+%22free+stuff%22&aqs=chrome..69i57.6791j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8#q=%22single+payer%22+%22free+stuff%22

Rather telling...

[WillyT]

45. You See A Problem Here ???

[Kalidurga]

47. So who is paying for your free stuff?

Never mind I already know. The system is geared toward getting nearly free labor and the people who provide that labor pay more in taxes and fees as a percent of their income than middle incomes and up. And at the same time the working poor are being hosed they are derided as being lazy and wanting free stuff. You know things like food and shelter that have gotten so outrageously expensive it takes 2-3 incomes per family just to barely make enough to live on.

Apartment $800
Food for 3-4 600-800
Electricity 30-90
Car/Insurance/Gas 300
Bus Pass 90
Clothing 600

This is just a very basic very not itemized list of expenses for a family of 3 or 4 people. And it's about rock bottom as far as expenses go. Most 2 bedroom apartments are more than $800 a month. Food can exceed $600 easily when families are strapped for time because of the 3 job situation and one adult is taking the bus nearly everywhere. I have the car expenses low because the family most likely has a beater that is barely holding on, but they don't have a car payment and they have very low cost insurance and don't drive far to work, this number can easily be a lot more if a family opts to buy a more reliable car and has payments plus drives farther to work. The clothing budget is also very low, because the family goes to the thrift store for most of their clothes. But, those clothes wear out faster so it's more trips to buy more clothes.

These are the families that are paying for all the free stuff that the middle class up to the very rich enjoy because the very rich are definitely not paying fair wages or their share in taxes and they benefit from the cheap labor. The middle class has more time to enjoy the free stuff that poor people pay for like parks and things like that.

[CanonRay]

49. You must be a JEB! fan

[mgmaggiemg]

53. hill are you also morning fog?

just curious

[Truprogressive85]

55. So here we are

Those people wanting "free stuff" how dare they

Sounds like Conservative mantra:
Its almost as if the ghost William F Buckley has made its way to the HRC supporters

[PADemD]

59. Hillary Clinton Calls Jeb Bush’s ‘Free Stuff’ Comment ‘Deeply Insulting’

Hillary Rodham Clinton unloaded on Jeb Bush on Monday, calling it “deeply insulting” that he had suggested that Democratic presidential candidates had tried to appeal to black voters by offering “free stuff.”

http://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2015/09/28/hillary-clinton-calls-jeb-bushs-free-stuff-comment-deeply-insulting/

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251633791

It appears that Hillary disagrees with you.

[BillZBubb]

62. I can't believe these right wing talking points got 7 DU recs

Something is very wrong here. Are some Hillary supporters rec'ing anything that smears Sanders? Even though it is right wing trash?

[Logical]

63. What a silly post! So Bernie should pay for programs? LOL, WTF? nt

[WillyT]

64. Thanks Mitt !!!

You 47%ers are such a kick in the butt.

[Truprogressive85]

66. so HRc Supporters parroting talking points from Conservatives ?

"paid by other peoples" ? "free stuff" ?

I rather pay higher in taxes so that the future generation doesn't not have worry about student debt

I rather pay higher taxes so that people do not have to pay astronomical premiums to Insurance companies that only care about the bottom line.

[RedCappedBandit]

67. So glad I read your responses to this thread

[mmonk]

68. By free stuff, are you talking about all

the free stuff taxpayers currently are providing to corporations or free stuff to the people who are paying taxes?

[demmiblue]

69. Kick... the masks come off!

[Cha]

70. KICK this since it obviously survived the Alert followed by the jury.

[Live and Learn]

78. Are you seriously applauding this post? Shame! nt

[beam me up scottie]

85. Right wing talking points uses against liberal candidates are awesome!

As long as it's Bernie.

[TSIAS]

86. I used to think Clinton supporters just wanted to bash Sanders

But the more I read it seems like they actually support these right-wing positions, and aren't merely using them to try and attack Bernie Sanders.

I'll bet if Hillary Clinton is the nominee this same line of attack will be used on her.

[Vinca]

71. He has said how he'll pay for things.

Step out of your bubble and listen.

[TheBlackAdder]

72. I thought there were rules here that prevents the promotion of RW/GOP Talking Points! nt

[Eric J in MN]

76. The Cadillac Tax is based on rightwing ideas.

Unions won good health insurance with low out-of-pocket.

Rightwingers think that the problem with healthcare is that ordinary people don't pay enough, and therefore make too many doctor appointments.

The Cadillac Tax is to tax out-of-existence insurance with low out-of-pocket. Then unions lose what they won for their members, and ordinary people can't see their doctors as often.

The Cadillac Tax was invented by Jonathan Gruber. Gruber wrote an op-ed about Obamacare without revealing that he was a paid consultant for designing Obamacare. He tried to deceive the American people into thinking that he was writing about Obamacare as a neutral commentator.

[hill2016]

81. Arguably

The Cadillac tax is to eventually drive all employer-based insurance to the exchanges since their limits are not indexed to health care inflation.

But my point still remains. People don't want to pay for other people's health insurance. Look at what happened in Vermont as well.

[rusty quoin]

77. Cut it out. You know it can be done.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

79. I guess people don't mind that corporations hide their millions in the Cayman Islands?

[hill2016]

80. What do you

Even mean by that?

[djean111]

82. Wow. Must have run out of memes or think that the rest of us don't know how to look this stuff up.

Sad.

[Warren DeMontague]

83. Oh, that gosh darn ACA! The free market was doing such a great job until Obama messed everything up.

derp derp derp derp

By the way, there's a word for "people paying for other peoples' health care". Know what that word is?

Insurance.

[mac56]

84. Concerned?