I do not understand why Hillary supporters can not understand that...

[SoLeftIAmRight]

She will bring forth a huge wave of rightwing voters.

The crazy will step up another level and it is beyond a safe level as is.

It is a visceral, irrational, wild, dangerous force that they are tempting.

No coattails - no chance of change - more division.

Why?

If she shared every dream I have for the future I still would question the advisability of voting for her.

It is not wise to add more fuel to the fire that burns in those on the right.

[emulatorloo]

1. The crazies always turn out.

There are lots of great reasons to vote for Bernie and get him the nomination. This is not one of them IMHO.

[Ferd Berfel]

3. Not like they will mobilize against Hillary

This wouldl bring out the rightwing base like nothing else

[emulatorloo]

8. We will have to agree to disagree.

They are in a constant state of frenzied delirium at all Democrats.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

50. the right's rejection of another Bush is ONE clear and obvious point

another clinton is far more offensive to them than any other choice

To ignore this is to reject the obvious and the documented

[tecelote]

77. Good point.

Totally agree.

The right doesn't want another Bush and many on the left do not want another Clinton.

We want change.

America needs to take a hard left turn... just in the nick of time.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

79. it is way past time to make it clear that the right's way of things is wrong

a vote for Hillary does not do it

[SheilaT]

2. I have been trying to point this out

for quite some time now.

While I can admire their devotion to her, they are living in la-la-land to think that she will magically overcome all opposition, that vast numbers of Republican women will vote for her just because she's a woman, that just because she went through the 2008 primary season every slur against her then will not be brought up again.

Worse yet, if she loses the nominations, I expect to see a resurgence of the PUMAS. Those of you who don't already recognize that term, google it.

[BainsBane]

10. Oh, it's totally magic

Project much?

[SheilaT]

24. Do you actually believe that

all Democratic women will vote for Hillary in the primaries?

I'm not the only one who won't.

And do you really believe that if she wins the nomination millions of Republican women will vote for her?

[SoLeftIAmRight]

67. that brush off that you proudly display is what you will get from her

on many serious issues

I am done with the dems giving my views that casual brush off

she reveals herself there and you can not even grasp it - so sad

[Beacool]

116. The ones living in la-la land is your side if you think that Republicans would vote for Sanders.

Yeah, because a 75 year old Socialist running as a Democrat is so much more electable.

[cascadiance]

118. There are many Republicans who feel their jobs are threatened by Free Trade and H-1B like programs..

... that outsource their jobs. That's a big reason that candidates like Trump and Cruz are promoting division in their party now by pushing against things like TPP and related free trade deals, or guest worker (indentured servant) programs like H-1B and it is not to keep their rich owners like the Koch brothers happy. The voters that might consider candidates like Trump and Cruz for these stances, would be far more apt to switch to vote for someone like Bernie than Hillary as he's been a lot more stronger against these outsourcing efforts promoted by corporatist lobbying efforts than Hillary has been.

[antigop]

130. People who benefit from the status quo will not understand or won't care.

People who haven't been burned (yet) by the status quo will not understand or won't care.

People who just want a female prez soooo badly won't understand or won't care.

[PotatoChip]

135. Exactly. Excellent summary. (nt)

[firebrand80]

4. The GOP doesn't scare me

They think there are enough "missing white conservative voters" to defeat the Obama coalition. They're wrong.

And they would come out just as strong if not stronger to vote against "the socialist."

[SoLeftIAmRight]

12. No - that is just not true

The rightwing radio talking heads are starting to prime the nuts for the possibility of a Sanders win but it is not will not bringing forth the easy hatred that flows for the Clintons.

They reject another Bush strongly and the thought of another Clinton is way beyond what they will sit back and suffer quietly.

[firebrand80]

17. they still have to find enough extra voters

In swing states to defeat the Obama coalition. They didn't do it in '12, and the coalition is larger every 4 years.

[azmom]

65. There is no Obama coalition without Obama.

Plenty of People that voted for Obama are breaking for Sanders.

[firebrand80]

82. The coalition will come together for the general

Sanders is missing the AA part of the Obama coalition, but they'd still vote for him in the GE. Younger voters prefer Sanders, but Clinton will win them in the GE.

[thucythucy]

140. I think you're deluding yourself on this.

I'm a Bernie supporter, which is why it scares me that so many Bernie supporters seem to have no idea what's in store for us all if and when the Senator wins the nomination.

I predict an anti-Semitic shit storm the likes we haven't seen in this country since the heyday of the German-American Bund. To think otherwise is just naïve. I predict the most intense red-baiting since Joe McCarthy. Honeymoon in Moscow? Refuses to accept Christ as his savior? The right wing will have a field day, and the bigots will absolutely be out in force.

I'm hoping that the higher-ups in the Sanders campaign have a plan on how to counter what's coming. Judging by his supporters on DU, my fear is we'll be nominating another Dukakis. Nice guy, great on the issues, totally blind-sided by the overt bigotry of the other side. Hell, they made John Kerry's war record a WEAKNESS. So to think Bernie won't get the full treatment is--I'll say it again--naïve.

At least the Clinton folks have been through this before, and hopefully have a plan in place. Bernie seems too smart not to know what's coming, but I sure hope--for all of us--that they have this covered well before the convention.

Watch what happens when Bernie wins Iowa and New Hampshire. If and when that happens, we can expect the GOP smear machine will crank up big time against him, with the media giving them all the air they need for their rants.

I still think Bernie is more viable in the general than Hillary, but let's not fool ourselves that any of this is going to be easy.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

147. No No No

I work with many of the "nuts"

have heated talks - they do not hate Sanders - in fact they understand his goals

More important - my dads side of the family live in the south and they are deep in the stuff

It is impossible for the level of hatred shown for Hillary to be projected onto Sanders

One must understand that on the issues - even the "nuts" have progressive thoughts and inclinations - they just do not have a way to express them - Sanders opens that door.

[thucythucy]

155. I hope you're right, or should I say "correct."

I still hope the Sanders campaign is prepared for what's coming--the shitstorm of anti-Bernie propaganda, including hits on "socialism" and using anti-Semitism. Trump. Cruz, Bush--none of them will be above using the most vile smears to gain the White House.

"They do not hate Sanders." Not yet, they don't. Let's see what happens after ten thousand hours of negative campaign ads, talk radio smears, MSM questions about his patriotism, etc.

It never hurts to be prepared. Better to be prepared for what doesn't happen, than to be unprepared for what does.

[randys1]

5. Rational and responsible liberals will seek to vote for whichever candidate has

the best chance of beating the Woman hating, Gay hating, Latino hating, Black hating, Asian hating, Muslim hating, Jewish hating, Samoan hating, Algerian hating, Angolan hating, Botswana hating, Brown hating, all non christian hating, all non white hating, GOP/Teaparty.

[leftofcool]

6. Anti-Hillary blah blah blah

You could spend your posting time building up your candidate instead of bashing Democrats.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

19. I make many strong stands against the votes of my friends on the left

AND AM VERY PROUD OF IT

If many more had been doing this since 1980 we would not be where we are now

[BainsBane]

7. Oh, so I shouldn't vote for her

because the GOP doesn't like her?

I don't make my voting decisions based on what the far right wants. I vote based on who is the most qualified candidate. I will not vote for someone who I believe shows no capacity or ability to do the job because you think the backlash from the right will be less with the candidate you prefer. That same argument was used in 2008. How did that turn out? It was just a bed of roses for Obama, with all that GOP love.

There is one reason the GOP wants Sanders as the nominee: It's the world socialism. A 6th grader could write those campaign ads. If Hillary is the nominee, the GOP will have to work to win the election. They might have to actually think a bit about what to run on.

I really wish people would simply accept the fact that we all get one vote, and that yours is no more important than mine or vice versa.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

93. "cut it out"

I am sure that you will listen

[tularetom]

110. Are you kidding? - republican voters think Hillary is a "socialist" as well

In spite of the fact that the Clintons have spent virtually their entire adult lives sucking up to the republican elite, the rank and file has been conditioned by right wing radio to believe they are raving left wing radicals.

And thats exactly how she will be portrayed in the event she secures the nomination, a leftist nut case. Oh, and a crook to boot.

[HassleCat]

9. I don't see much difference

If Bernie makes it to the general election, they will very quickly become excited about his socialist and progressive identifications. I agree they can't whip themselves up to quite the level as they would for Hillary, but it would be very close. I think too much craziness from the right may help Clinton, since most people are tired of manufactured scandals and conspiracy theories.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

70. very nice

only - the frenzy will be greater

fact are stubborn - her negatives are so very very high

[Squinch]

84. My thoughts exactly.

[Thinkingabout]

11. It stand to reason every vote Hillary gets in

"She will bring forth a huge wave of rightwing voters."

Every vote Hillary brings in the huge wage of rightwing voters is a vote that does not go to the Republican candidate. Then it would be a positive affect Hillary will have in the GE.

[hlthe2b]

13. Based on that logic, Obama would never have been President.

I respect those who support each of the Dem candidates, but to advocate cowardice determine who is nominated? Umm, no.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

22. They never saw it coming

Hillary - different story

[LexVegas]

14. Good thing Obama didn't listen to people like you. nt

[SoLeftIAmRight]

29. Different story

but you tried

[JI7]

15. Obama is more hated by the right wing

[Rosa Luxemburg]

131. I'm not sure about that

It goes a long way with Hillary and the right unfortunately.

[in_cog_ni_to]

16. It's her turn.

And she's female.

PEACE
LOVE
BERNIE

[sufrommich]

18. I'm sure the GOP will have trouble whipping up their base

against the self proclaimed socialist.

[litlbilly]

28. Democratic Socialist, get it right, you sound like the RW hate radio and TV people.

[sufrommich]

35. Well thanks for proving my point. I'm sure if you

ask the GOP to differentiate between democratic socialist and socialist they'll politely comply.

[litlbilly]

42. Those idiots who dont know the difference arent gonna vote for him anyway, I garantee they wont vote

for Hillary. Bernie beats all rebups better than Hillary, another fact.

[mythology]

51. 50% say they won't vote for a socialist

I doubt they will be that particular about the difference.

As for Republicans in Vermont voting for him, there is nothing to suggest that would replicate at the national level given how little Vermont matches national demographics on race, age, education level among others.

[litlbilly]

54. And they wont be, he's a Democratic Socialist. Get it? BTW, ignore for you. done wasting time

with your nonsense...

[SoLeftIAmRight]

71. it is the other 50 percent that matters

which group are you in?

[litlbilly]

43. What about the 25% of repubs who always vote for Bernie in Vermont? They know exactly who he is,

I would guess you have no idea or care who he is. So obvious.

[sufrommich]

55. Winning in Vermont is a whole different ballgame

than winning a national election,it's naive to believe otherwise.

[litlbilly]

57. You just keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better:)

[uponit7771]

105. VT demographically looks different from the rest of the US, its not a fair comparison

[uponit7771]

103. democratic, purple, happy... whatever... the "socialist" will bring out the GOP nuts against him

[Number23]

97. Thank you.

[Sheepshank]

20. You honestly don't think this would happen with Bernie?

huh?

[SoLeftIAmRight]

68. do you think the hate is even close to equal?

well?

the data are clear - her negatives are off the chart

sad - very sad - but true

[Sheepshank]

87. Republican talking heads will instill hate AND fear for Commie/socialist/govt take over

Bernie garners hate and fear in the minds of Republicans. I don't think the fear Hillary at all.

They fear what Bernie will bring to the Whitehouse in terms of political party platform and ideologies. The fear I think, coupled with the hate, will make Bernie a more negative target than Hillary. They have survived a Clinton Presidency in the past, it is a known quantity. Republicans have heightened fear of the unknown.

No, I stand by my claim, they will mobilize in bigger, nastier numbers against Bernie.

[Qutzupalotl]

107. Sanders has crossover appeal.

He gets about 25% of the Republican vote in his home state.

[Sheepshank]

119. Well good for him and everyone else that believes that. Nt.

[one_voice]

21. They always vote...

that's the one thing you can count on from them. They will vote for even the most moderate candidate. They line up and vote. They don't sit at home. They hate all the Democrats...it's just varying degrees. They don't want ANY Dem in the White House.

The hated Bill Clinton

They hated Al Gore

They hated John Kerry

They fucking hated Obama

They fucking hate Hillary

They hate Bernie.

Like I said it's varying degrees of hate, but make no mistake they hate all of them.

[litlbilly]

32. You have it wrong. They dont hate Bernie anywhere near as much, he gets 25% of the vermont

republicans to vote for him. You cant deny that. Look it up

[SoLeftIAmRight]

59. facts do not seem to matter to some

great post

[litlbilly]

61. That's ok. I'm just trying to figure out who they want to convince. Thnks:)

[one_voice]

60. I'm sure he does well in his state...

I was talking about in a general election, should he be the nominee. I don't doubt that some repubs would cross over. Some did for Obama. However, the general feeling would be hate. That's what they do regardless of who the nominee is.

They hate the dem nominee--it doesn't matter who it is. It's just varying degrees of hate.

We're talking a national level, not a state level.

[litlbilly]

64. Bernie will increase the dem and independent voter turnout. What does that mean? Huge victory

for dems even down ballots. If I'm wrong, I will post it in huge letters here. We will see soon enough.

[one_voice]

74. You may do as you wish..

but my comments said nothing about Bernie's ability to increase dem/indy voter turn out. So I'm not sure what this comment is about.

My comments have been about the repukes always turning out to vote based on their hatred of Democrats. It wouldn't matter who it was. Period. Nothing further.

So your need to 'prove' something is puzzling to me. It's as if you think I've insulted Bernie in some way, which I have not.

[litlbilly]

85. Im betting this time, the repub turnout will not be as big as in the past. Just watch and see

[uponit7771]

106. Link and quote on that? Stating so doesn't make it so

[treestar]

34. +1

The not voting is a Dem problem. It is not a problem for the Repubs.

[Bernin4U]

40. Exactly. And that "fucking"

Absolutely makes a difference to their turnout.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

132. yes they do come out

and they will be more fired up with the Trump. Haters.

[Renew Deal]

23. If only we nominate someone else, the republicans won't vote.

Genius!

[SoLeftIAmRight]

26. wow - did you play twister as a child

you sure moved a long way from my point

QUESTION - Do you think there would be a stronger reaction to Clinton than to Hillary?

Simple yes no would be truthful

[OilemFirchen]

95. I think that there would be an equal reaction to Clinton or Hillary.

Precisely so.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

96. "cut it out"

that should take care of that

[OilemFirchen]

98. Apparently not. (n/t)

[SoLeftIAmRight]

99. you know it and I know it

Hillary - nope

[OilemFirchen]

100. Oops.

There goes the last synapse.

[Metric System]

25. But they're all going to line up to vote for the socialist after the Right is done smearing Bernie?

[litlbilly]

33. Dammit get it fking right, hes not a socialist, Democratic Socialist. As different as liberal, and

neoliberal.

[NurseJackie]

45. "Democratic Socialist" is a type of Socialist. While "Socialist Democrat" is a type of Democrat.

Considering that he's (now) a Democrat, he should have gone with the latter. Oh well. Just observing ... I don't really care.

[Nonhlanhla]

143. The distinction would be lost on them

These are people who confuse National Socialism (Nazism) with Socialism, despite the fact that National Socialism is ultra-rightwing, and Socialism is on the left side of the political spectrum. Plus for them Socialism = Communism , and Communism = USSR, both which are rather uninformed associations. Do you think they have the capacity to distinguish between Socialism and Democratic Socialism? If Bernie is our nominee, he'll be depicted as the reincarnation of Josef Stalin himself.

[winter is coming]

37. The socialist with the message that the rich are screwing us and should pay their fair share?

It's not just rank-and-file Dems that have been getting shafted by the 1%. They might turn out for Bernie, and they might not, but there's no personal animus there. I think you underestimate the personal dislike for the Clintons that decades of hate radio have produced. There are GOPers who will crawl on broken glass to vote against a Clinton.

[litlbilly]

152. I think youre correct. There is big anger across the board, but some just dont know why, or they do

know and are too stupid to know who to blame. Gonna be interesting to see how it plays out.

[redstateblues]

27. A Socialist on the ballot would result in a huge turnout

On the right. Once the Rs started unpacking Bernies baggage he would be swamped.

[winter is coming]

39. And yet Obama won re-election in 2012, despite the number of wingers

who turned out to vote against (what they believed was) a black socialist.

[redstateblues]

112. Obama never called himself a Socialist. Bernie did

Huge difference. Huge mistake as well

[winter is coming]

114. No, Bernie calls himself a Democratic Socialist, which is not the same thing.

And we were talking about political smears, not objective reality. Whether or not Obama was a socialist is irrelevant: people believed he was, and it still didn't win Romney the election.

[Art_from_Ark]

120. Um, Bernie would be listed as a Democrat on the ballot

[redstateblues]

121. The Rs would have a field day with his

Honeymoon in Russia and his life as a Socialist. Don't kid yourself, it would be a huge negative in the GE.

[Art_from_Ark]

122. His honeymoon in Russia was in Burlington's sister city, Yaroslavl

As Mayor of Burlington, he was representing his city. And that was in the days of perestroika and glasnost, when Mikhail Gorbachev was in control and viewed favorably in the US, even receiving praise from Ronald Reagan. Hell, Reagan even visited Russia the same year as Bernie.

http://eightiesclub.tripod.com/id337.htm

[brooklynite]

30. I do not understand why Bernie supporters can not understand that...

...the people who won't vote for Hillary also won't vote for Bernie, and didn't vote for Obama.

They're not part of the equation. The win comes from bringing together the Democrats (and despite your chest-thumping, there will be no significant "I'll never vote for Hillary" movement among the Sanders voters, just as there wasn't a real "I'll never vote for Obama" movement among the Clinton voters) including African American and Hispanics who will be revved up to vote for the Democrats after two years of Republican pandering to the white base, and a segment of moderate Republicans (yes, they do exist) and Independents who think Cruz and Trump are crazy, just like we do.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

31. not true and you avoid my point

but you tried

[brooklynite]

36. I didn't avoid your point...I identified it as irrelevant.

The only evidence I've been presented that Sanders has a better shot at attracting Republicans than Clinton does is that apparently he does well in Vermont. While I don't have figures handy, I would hazard a guess that Clinton's Senate wins in NY probably had more Republican votes than Bernie's did.

[cascadiance]

139. Trump and Cruz have lined up against TPP and H-1B. Hillary is for H-1B and is nebulous about TPP.

Bernie is also against TPP and H-1B as well. Who has the biggest chance at switching votes for Republicans worried about getting screwed out of their jobs by these programs that Hillary seems to care more about satisfying the wealthy elites than either Bernie or these other Republican candidates on?

I think you underestimate the number of Republicans (and independents) who will do the math and realize at that point that Trump or Cruz would be sending a message of being more concerned about their jobs being outsourced than Hillary. That strategy won't work with Bernie, who comes across a lot more honestly for American workers' welfare in that regard. Now maybe Hillary will luck out and big money will succeed in getting both her to face off against fellow corporatist Marco Rubio, and then we'll have a complete drop off of voters who will give up when they see that the election has been totally rigged to exclude any candidate that would work for them. But I don't think Republicans are going to be that compliant either with what the wealthy elite money wants too. That's why both Trump and Cruz are more successful now with their voters.

[leftofcool]

38. Actually it is true and if anyone knows, it is Brooklynite.

[JoePhilly]

62. +1 ...

I do not understand why some Bernie supporters think talking down at Hillary supporters is an effective strategy.

[Bernin4U]

75. Binary thinking is fail.

While you're potentially wrong about Dems not voting for Hillary (I know plenty, whereas in 08 there was really no serious talk about this), it's clear that Dems and Repubs are less significant factors every year. The squishy middle is what matters nowadays. You know this well.

You honestly want to stand here and say that the squshies, most of whom probably pay attention to politics about an hour a month, really see Hillary and Bernie as equivalent?

While I, as most Bernie supporters, seriously question the accuracy of current polling methodologies, I don't see that Favorability can so easily be ignored. Hillary (per Huffpo) shows +43%, -52%. Bernie shows +36%, -33%.

Of course it means that nearly a third of voters don't have a strong opinion on Bernie yet, and he could potentially go to -65%. But is it likely? He'll get higher numbers in both columns, but the overall ratio probably won't move too much.

Whereas with Hillary, those high numbers on both sides only shows that everybody already thinks they know her. Those numbers aren't likely to move much. That high negative is too much of a problem.

Hillary does not have a better chance to win the middle than Bernie.

[Art_from_Ark]

123. My sister didn't vote for Obama,

she absolutely will not vote for Hillary, but she loves Bernie.

How hard is it to accept the fact that someone who wants a genuine liberal candidate, and finally has a chance to vote for a genuine liberal candidate, will vote for that liberal candidate?

[Godhumor]

41. Oh good, we're back to this canard about Hillary. The cycle has started again

It is like the phases of the moon.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

44. Sanders supporter, but I disagree with letting the GOP control the tone.

They're going to bring boatloads of hatred and lies against Clinton or Sanders. Their organized hatred is not permitted to sway my vote.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

47. The right do and have controlled the tone

the move to the right has continued for 40 yoars

time to so strong support for a move back

[DisgustipatedinCA]

49. I'm saying I'm not willing to bend to the wishes of the right.

If Bernie was ahead in the polls, we'd certainly see dire warnings from Clinton supporters that the GOP would attack him for being socialist, etc, etc. As a Sanders supporter, I wouldn't stand for that, and I wouldn't expect Clinton supporters to either. Fuck Republicans. They're going to bring whatever poison and garbage they can, so fuck them.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

52. she is to the right of him - so you are bent

true?

[DisgustipatedinCA]

53. I'm a Sanders supporter. Get that straight.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

58. so sorry

wrong post

[unapatriciated]

137. The right will trash whomever we nominate, that's a given.

I don't understand all the angst I see from both camps regarding this. The R's party is so fractured (just look at how many are still in the race) that no matter who our nominee is I'm confident we will retain the White House. So I agree with you fuck the republicans.

What concerns me is will our nominee continue campaigning for our involvement in Senate and House races or pointing out who's fault it is why we are only holding our ground and not moving forward (in regards to climate change, the economy, gun violence, race inequality).

I think Sanders is more likely to do this, Clinton not so much. Retaining the White House is just the first step in undoing all the damage that has been done since reagan administration. Obama has done a lot of great things while in office but he failed when it came to keeping his based involved. He spent to much time in the beginning trying to appease the R's and not enough time pointing out (like he is doing now) how it is on them for delaying or destroying any real progress in solving the problems that we face as a country.

[Doctor_J]

46. IMO many are willing to sacrifice the party in order to elect a female president

There will be no coattails, many of the young Sanders supporters will be pushed away from the party that's on life support as it is. The agenda for the next four years will be 90% of what the Republicans want, 95% of what Wall Street and the 1% want. She's pretty much of an economic Republican anyway, and when she meets Paul Ryan "half way", the legacy of the party that brought you Social Security, The New Deal, Medicare, Medicaid, CRA, VRA, and generally made the 20th century the best in history for any nation, will be gone.

OTOH there will probably be a female president. The downside is that every move she makes to the right will be cheered by the Fan Club as a major progressive milestone, and any complaint will be chalked off to "woman-hating". An example, which I posted awhile back, will go like this:

Hillary proposes the bold $12hr minimum wage. Ryan says he likes it where it is. they "compromise" at $8.20, with Ryan promising to place a 1-year moratorium on votes to repeal Obamacare (which the insurance lobby will never let happen anyway). Hate radio and Fox News scream that $8.20 will collapse the economy. The Fan Club and other DINOs insist that those complaints mean, for certain, that Hillary kicked Ryan's ass and that $8.20 is comparable to FDR's passage of SS as a profound progressive accomplishment. Those who point out that $8.20/hr with no healthcare, no time off, and no pension is actually still poverty, will be assailed as MRA's.

By 2018, whatever fraction of the Bernistas bit the bullet and voted for Hillary will be completely disillusioned, as they realize that Mrs. Clinton's party is either in on the con, or completely ineffectual at stopping, and either way voting for anyone in her cabal, R or D, will not change there lives in the least. Turnout is low, more seats are lost, DINOs blame liberals for not voting for any of the conservatives on their ballots.

Very glad to be well onto my metaphorical back 9. Before I go I'll tell my grandkids about the party I joined when I turned 18, and what became of it over the intervening decades.

[MisterP]

91. good GOD that's exactly how it'd play out

and by 2030 the party will be extinct given current trends (though their solution is to hire more Pubs to run for them)

[JoePhilly]

48. The wheel of outrage has spun back to this space again?

[Bernin4U]

56. Every Dem candidate is a Hyper-Socialist!

Gore, Kerry, Obama, Clinton, Sanders.

If you think it matters that most of the above are fairly centrist, it only shows you're not paying attention.

Sanders can call himself whatever he wants. Clinton can call herself whatever she wants. The far right will see either of them as ultra-left demon spawn. Jesus would be too, if he ran as a Dem, regardless of where he actually fell on the spectrum.

Anyone stuck in this binary thinking is wasting their time.

What WE CARE ABOUT are the growing bloc (nearly 40%) who call themselves "independent". They are the brass ring. They are the Deciders.

Will some of them have a problem with Bernie's "socialist" label? Of course.

Will it be more than those who have a problem (legitimate or not) with Hillary? I say no.

Hillary has crazy high negative ratings for a reason. She has tremendous baggage. Whether it's valid or not, it's still there. Just because it doesn't matter to you, doesn't mean it doesn't matter.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

63. Hillary has crazy high negative ratings for a reason

thank for this

Hillary has crazy high negative ratings for a reason. She has tremendous baggage. Whether it's valid or not, it's still there. Just because it doesn't matter to you, doesn't mean it doesn't matter.

[Gothmog]

92. This post ignores how negative advertising works

Sanders has referred to himself as a socialist and it will be easy to run negative ads that practically write themselves. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/10/12/why-bernie-sanders-isnt-going-to-be-president-in-5-words/

The simple political fact is that if Sanders did ever manage to win the Democratic presidential nomination — a long shot but far from a no shot at this point — Republicans would simply clip Sanders's answer to Todd above and put it in a 30-second TV ad. That would, almost certainly, be the end of Sanders's viability in a general election.

Americans might be increasingly aware of the economic inequality in the country and increasingly suspicious of so-called vulture capitalism — all of which has helped fuel Sanders's rise. But we are not electing someone who is an avowed socialist to the nation's top political job. Just ain't happening.

These negatives ads will be easy to run because they would include the clip with Sanders own words.

Negative ads work and Sanders has given the Kochs the sound bytes to make these negatives ads very very effective

[Skidmore]

66. When Sanders actively courts the Trump/Reagan Democrat vote,

do you not think that they won't collect their dance from him later should he win? That is who those Trump followers are that the Sanders camp is coveting. They are not liberal by a long shot. It seems tom e that visceral, wild, and dangerous would best fit Trump's crowd which, by the way, were all too ready to toss Sanders protesters out into the cold without their coats last night and have beaten up black protesters among them. And, I'm curious as to why you think Sanders, a self-described outsider who has spent 40 years of his political career lobbing incendiary comments at a wide range of targets, has coattails. I question the advisabilty of voting for a candidate who has very little chance of delivering on high promises and who would seek to drag along with him a bunch of Reagan's clanking chains in an attempt to do so. Progressivist, not progressive.

[Bernin4U]

86. Punk Rock

I have no idea about the scene of today. But in the 80's, you had tons of different people going to punk shows.

Up in front were the most hardcore. A lot of kids just there to blow off steam, but definitely some full-on skinhead/supremacists mixed in as well. Further back you'd have older, more mature, better educated. Some there for the music, some for the spectacle, many just out of curiosity. Some of these might be going to Circle Jerks show one night, and Beethoven the next. This I know first hand.

Trump attracts a lot of interest because he is a promise of something different. As does Bernie. The difference is that, for every Trump fan who acts like a complete dick, and pulls stuff like that, there will be another who is completely turned off by it. Those are the "crossover" people who Bernie has a very good chance with.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

94. "cut it out"

Hillary seems to think saying that works - we will see

[stillwaiting]

124. Bernie is not changing his message one iota though.

If he connects with Trump supporters, he is changing THEM.

When Hillary connects with Republicans SHE changes and adopts conservative principles/policies.

Huge difference. MASSIVE difference.

[cascadiance]

141. Exactly, he's championing protecting Americans' jobs, that Trump is trying to appeal to as well...

... when he is campaigning against free trade deals like TPP and guest worker programs like H-1B, albeit when Trump is doing so, he's trying to appeal to them by also trying to appeal to some of them that blame foreign workers in a xenophobic fashion. Bernie's trying to appeal to them (and I believe will succeed more!) in being more concerned about having those represent them that support their having jobs, and not trying to appeal to bigoted feelings blaming other foreign workers for them losing those jobs. I think he will succeed with many of them in not worrying so much on who to blame (or at least to blame the right people who are the 1%ers corrupting the system that is doing so), and focus on voting in politicians that want to get their jobs back in a constructive way. Bernie can make that case. I think Hillary, with her stances (or lack of consistent ones) on free trade deals, and her supporting guest worker programs that screw over American workers, can't really make that case to Republicans, whether they are xenophobic in their motivations to support the anti-free trade and guest worker planks of a Republic or not.

[notadmblnd]

128. Can I ask you- how do you figure HRC will be able to deliver on her promises

outside of paying back Wall Street and the rest of the 1% for their favors? Please be specific.

[Skidmore]

144. Do you not think she has developed working

relations with legislators in Congress and other parts of the government over the years? She also has a network of political liaisons with community groups throughout the nation. How do you think coattails are developed? It is not by lobbing fireballs at everyone you see from a safe distance, but by fostering working relationships with others.

[notadmblnd]

145. Not republicans.

nope. I don't think she'll get any further than Obama has.

[Skidmore]

146. She also has developed

working international relationships.

Just what makes you think Sanders will get further with his agenda? I don't think he stands a snowball's chance in hell of getting elected in the GE, let alone getting his agenda passed with the current congress--it will be around for awhile.

[notadmblnd]

150. I think Obama managed. He probably had less experience going in than Sanders has.

I'm proud of some of the work President Obama has done.

[Skidmore]

151. I'm very proud of President Obama who faced

and incredible amount of opposition. Sander is no Obama though.

[notadmblnd]

153. I think he'll do ok foreign policy wise

[Kalidurga]

69. I don't support Hillary because of what she is and what she represents

I do not vote based on what I think the other side will do if I vote the way I feel is the right way to vote. In fact I think we all need to stop doing that. The RW is never going to be right in the head or the heart. So we need to stop worrying about that and just push for our agenda and if Hillary was the one to do that, I would be for her and I wouldn't care how deranged the RW became because of that. It would be the right thing to do if we shared the same dreams for the US, but we don't. She wants a world where corporations are safe from not having to pay living wages, she wants a world that is safe for white middle and upper class feminists feminists of color and poor ones fu, she wants a world where we get cheap oil and to bad if we have to allow for a thuggish dictator to get it, she doesn't care if college students are saddled with crippling debt, nor does she care about women and children forced out of having a safety net.

[demwing]

72. As a adamant Bernie supporter, trying to step into their shoes...

1. Her resume is outstanding
2. The glass ceiling needs to go
3. They see Bernie's as less electable because of "____" (fill in a reason)

I'm not offering an opinions on any one of those possible reasons, just trying to answer the OPs question.

[MohRokTah]

73. I do not understand why Sanders supporters believe anything you just posted.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

76. having trouble finding something to do today?

try so watching some Richard wolf and some Chris Hedges

it will do you a world of good

[MohRokTah]

78. I despise both Wolf and Hedges. Both are complete fools.

You posted an OP.

I responded.

It's called an internet forum.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

80. "FOOLS"

wow

[MohRokTah]

81. Yes, fools.

wow indeed

[cascadiance]

136. Thanks for exposing your corporatist philosophies so completely for us to see....

... on how you are more the corrupted "New Democrat" philosophy than the traditional Democratic philosophy that Wolf and Hedges would support along with FDR in rejecting the economic royalists instead of feeling the need to do their bidding.

[redstateblues]

129. Wolff is everybody's favorite Marxist

Marxism worked so well in the USSR

[Gothmog]

83. And the fear of socialism and socialists will not trigger the same response?

Socialist and Socialism are trigger words to the right wingers and these terms do not poll well. The polling on the terms 'socialism" and "socialist" is really bad already
From Pew http://www.pewresearch.org/daily-number/little-change-in-publics-response-to-capitalism-socialism/

The word ‘socialism’ triggers a negative reaction for most Americans, but certainly not for all. Six-in-ten (60%) people say they have a negative reaction to the word, while just 31% have a positive reaction. Those numbers are little changed from April 2010....

By contrast, socialism is a far more divisive word, with wide differences of opinion along racial, generational, socioeconomic and political lines. Fully nine-in-ten conservative Republicans (90%) view socialism negatively, while nearly six-in-ten liberal Democrats (59%) react positively. Low-income Americans are twice as likely as higher-income Americans to offer a positive assessment of socialism (43% among those with incomes under $30,000, 22% among those earning $75,000 or more).

From Gallop http://www.gallup.com/poll/125645/Socialism-Viewed-Positively-Americans.aspx

PRINCETON, NJ -- More than one-third of Americans (36%) have a positive image of "socialism," while 58% have a negative image. Views differ by party and ideology, with a majority of Democrats and liberals saying they have a positive view of socialism, compared to a minority of Republicans and conservatives.



....Socialism

Socialism had the lowest percentage positive rating and the highest negative rating of any term tested. Still, more than a third of Americans say they have a positive image of socialism.

Exactly how Americans define "socialism" or what exactly they think of when they hear the word is not known. The research simply measures Americans' reactions when a survey interviewer reads the word to them -- an exercise that helps shed light on connotations associated with this frequently used term.

There are significant differences in reactions to "socialism" across ideological and partisan groups:

A majority of 53% of Democrats have a positive image of socialism, compared to 17% of Republicans.
Sixty-one percent of liberals say their image of socialism is positive, compared to 39% of moderates and 20% of conservatives

The Kochs will have great deal to work with if Sanders is the nominee and pretending that the Kochs will not air $400 millon of negative ads using the terms socialist and socialism is not realistic.

We are in the primary process and it is appropriate to consider viability and weaknesses of candidates. Sanders is subject to attack on the socialism issue

[Bernin4U]

88. #56. Bernie is no more Socialist than Hillary.

What he calls himself, and where he actually fall upon the spectrum, makes no difference.

Just as it won't for Hillary.

Or the previous 5 Dem candidates.

Or the next.

[Gothmog]

90. That is not how negative ads work

The fact that Sanders uses the socialist designation is all that the Kochs need to run negative ads against Sanders. The terms "socialist" and "socialism" already poll badly and these terms will be radioactive after several million dollars of negative ads. The premise of the OP is that Sanders is the superior candidate for the primary process and I disagree with this premise.

All evidence is that Sanders would have a harder time than Hillary Clinton in that Sanders is (a) not vetted, (b) is vulnerable to negative ads using the terms socialism and socialist and (c) will likely lack the financial resources to compete in a general election where the Kochs will be spending $887 million and the RNC candidate may spend another billion dollars.

[randr]

89. Not to mention another Presidency spent with one lawsuit after another.

[underthematrix]

101. From now on my primary response to these HRC bashing posts

will be LAWD!

[SoLeftIAmRight]

102. maybe you should just say "cut it out"

Hillary thinks that works

[underthematrix]

104. Nope. That won't do. LAWD! means the level of stupid is so deep

"cut it out" just wont do.

[Beacool]

108. And I cannot understand why Sanders' supporters can't leave Hillary supporters in peace.

Do we nag you people to death as to who you should support? Nope, we don't. I don't care who others support.

Enough already with the constant nagging!!! It's counterproductive.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

109. tell them to "cut it out"

the hillary solution

[Beacool]

113. Nope, the disingenuous posts will continue unabated.

That's why many Hillary supporters either left DU or don't participate too often. It's a waste of time to argue with the Sanders' crowd.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

115. yes - the same old - same old is not good enough anymore...

for some

be well

and find that there is lots of other good thing here at DU

[vi5]

111. Of all the reasons I dislike Hillary Clinton....

..and of all the reasons nothing would get me to vote for her in the primary (and maybe even the General, depending on how she campaigns), this one doesn't even crack the top 100.

The GOP will whip up their base into a frenzy no matter who the Dems nominate. Their cadre of crazy, ignorant voters will get whipped up into a frenzy to vote against anyone with a D after their name.

[sadoldgirl]

117. A lot of this depends on the repug candidate.

People seem to have forgotten that part of Obama's
win was due to the Mitten being a mormon, which
led a certain number of evangelical repugs to omission
of their vote.

Imo, if Dumpster or the Cruzer win, there will be a certain
number of repugs not voting. If they do vote, the vote for them
may just a protest vote against another Clinton.

Lastly, Bernie is very popular with the millennials, who don't
care about the "socialist" label.

[randome]

125. Because you say so?

Unless you are a pollster or a clairvoyant, you have no idea what this election will produce.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[FarPoint]

126. Hillary supporters understand the battle to come...

I sense the Sanders supporters are still in learning mode....that is the difference I see....

[cascadiance]

138. I think it is Hillary and her supporters that still have a lot to learn...

about how most Americans are fed up with the economy being skewed to the economic royalists' benefits that they seem to like instead of reject the way a real Democrat like FDR would speak only on his sentiments in that regard.

Hillary either doesn't understand the battle in areas like student debt nightmares, "free trade" deals such as TPP, and H-1B or other guest worker programs that have been SCREWING American workers that obviously haven't hit them as hard as it has many other Americans (both Democrats AND Republicans) that even Republicans like Trump and Cruz are starting to see pressure from their constituency on too.

[FarPoint]

142. I like Sanders message, support his views...

That said, the battle ahead must be won by a Democrat. Hillary has the knowledge, strategy and experience to successfully defeat the republican Nominee.

[still_one]

127. For the same reason that Sanders' supporters cannot understand why the red and purple states

will have a lot of problems with Bernie

[SoLeftIAmRight]

149. one must understand - the red american do have "progressive" feelings they just have....

no outlet to express them - Sanders opens that door

[antigop]

133. People who benefit from the status quo will not understand or won't care.

People who haven't been burned (yet) by the status quo will not understand or won't care.

People who just want a female prez soooo badly won't understand or won't care.

[Truprogressive85]

134. This I do know

If (big if) HRC ends up to be the nominee , turnout will not be 08 or even 12"

Just my two cents

[Faux pas]

154. Kickin'