What happened to the proposal to include misogynist language in TOS?...I've asked about four times

[whathehell]

now and I'm getting no answers...What's up?

[boston bean]

1. I have asked skinner 3 times in ATA.

The response was non-committal. And it has not been added to date.

Twice in this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1259373

And once in this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1259759

[whathehell]

9. Thanks, Bean, for the links

I read them, and yes, I detect a distinct lack of enthusiam.

I don't think we should quit, though.

Sometimes asking for something over and over and over

will "wear down" the person being asked...Just sayin'.

I'm super tired right now, so I can't really think about other

alternatives, but what do you think about NOT just letting this go?..It's annoying

the shit out of me, especially when I see, for the first time, really, the flagrant

use of the crudest words possible being used with "in your face" attitude

to describe women's breasts. There's at least three "Tits" threads going on as we speak.

THIS is the response I received when I alerted on the first for "unnecesary use of crude term"

O to 6 to Let it stand...No explanations.

Here: Logged in as whathehell | My Profile | My Journal | My Account | My Inbox (7) | Help | Log out

At Fri Mar 29, 2013, 05:04 PM you sent an alert on the following post:

If women have to get their tits out to make a point, so be it.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022583041

The reason for the alert was:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

You added the following comments:

Use of an unnecessarily CRUDE term, especially from a male. As a woman, I find it offensive and disrespectful, especially since other terms are readily available.

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this post at Fri Mar 29, 2013, 02:01 PM, and voted 0-6 to keep it.

Thank you.

[boston bean]

14. Some are just hopeless and until the admins do something about it

we will suffer the consequences.

Maybe if we took MadrasT's suggestion below, we would probably get some traction sorry to say.

I just read a post out there, from a guy who says that "he listens to his girlfriend so her tits will come out". Nice to know that's why he listens. What is he pavlovs dog? Really doesn't say much for him or men who feel that way. That they listen to their girlfriend or wife so they can get laid. I would hope they listened because they cared about how she felt, but nope, that's not the reason for this fella anyhow. And he's proud to say it!

[seabeyond]

23. firstly they do not get, that we know they are full of shit. and they say crap like this to feel

like a man. and to giggle with their buddies. in todays society this is the only definition men are holding onto that defines their masculinity. so they just do not get how stupid they sound. they think they are being ultra cool.

and in the process they get a jab at women and a liten up mentality. like the forever present jab at mommy for having control over them all those years. a petulant child

i am sorry. i may be to blunt in assessment. but this really gets old. and men really do not get how stupid they present themselves with comments like this.

men know they are full of shit. women know that they are full of shit and we all do a lot of pretending.

[Little Star]

2. I think that non-answer is our answer.....

Now shut up and sing.

[whathehell]

5. Do we really want to tolerate being second class citizens here?

No, I don't have any immediate answers myself, but I don't

think we should, as it were, just "lay down" for it.

I think we could get our heads together to try something else.

[CrispyQ]

13. What other forums do HOF members participate in?

DU & a business forum are the only two I participate in. I don't have much time, but I would definitely consider a feminist forum or a forum that is more friendly to women.

[Helen Reddy]

19. Sounds good to me! n/t

[Eleanors38]

47. You may wish to consider "Feminist Activism," similar to the new gun control "activism"

[seabeyond]

61. i have only ever seen you diss women. that simple. why are you here? you are the problem

not the solution. i hold you with contempt.

there is always the fearful man that must make his waves. we do not need your fear of women, in here.

[Eleanors38]

67. So hateful, hateful, hateful. I made a serious suggestion. Look it over. nt

[seabeyond]

68. again, with dissing women. and again, why are you here? whackin' the hornets nest?

[Eleanors38]

74. Other than all that, I proposed a serious....

way to resolve the problems prompting my suggestion. You may wish to consider it. Frankly, I don't want to be anywhere I am "despised" for no particular reason or inexpicably attacked for a serious suggestion.

In answer to your question, I have questions which probably touch on feminist thought, and this seems to be the group for them. Having a 2-group approach (as with guns) would seem to satisfy the ideological/advocacy question -- with appropriate statement of purpose -- and leave this group open to a more give & take atmosphere, esp. if folks are inclined to inquiry and disputation. Exp. of inquiry:

Given the vast majority of men & women pass any person by with never so much as a comment, let alone a conversation, what is the role of Physical Attraction (if any) within feminist thought, and is there an ideal to strive for? If there is little to be said about physical attraction within feminist thought, where does the phenomenon have appropriate (if any) expression?

[seabeyond]

76. men come in here and say we hate all men, then that pretty much makes conversation or discussion

useless.

dontcha think?

the only observation i have made is that every post of yours i have read has dissed or objectified women, or women in this group.

that is all i have read of your posts. that is the only thing i know of you.

and you immediately diss women in this thread.

i have not resorted to disrespect. you have. so no, i do not think it will be productive.

[Eleanors38]

78. Well, I have never said that women in this group hate men,

maybe you have me confused with someone else? I have posted so infrequently here, that I find it hard to believe that I have a track record for "dissing" women. Anyhoo, my suggestion was only that.

[seabeyond]

24. skinner told us to educate. repeatedly. regardless of trigger and pain and inability to enjoy site

to educate educate educate.

he and earlg also said speak out. and speak out and speak out.

ok. so that is our choice.

oh but, WTF.... then we are continually attack with no one actually reading what we say yet resorting to a bunch of bullshit namecalling.

thank you so much.... for the suggestion of speaking out

i know it has made me really really really popular here on du. certainly not what my reputation use to be and not who i am. but, wtf, right?

[Little Star]

28. That makes me sad. I have a hard time watching the virtual-verbal abuse..

you have to endure. Your a good person sea and you are well liked by many on DU.

[LiberalLoner]

29. Me too.

[seabeyond]

31. it has gotten beyond ridiculous and stupid. the new meme is my mental health. like for whatever

reason, for men to continually and repeatedly say this to me is fine.

imagine, what this board would be if skinner allowed death threats and rape threats. do you think it would be so much different with the men we have, than any other board on the net?

it is an interesting sociological experience. that is the place i put it.

the last couple weeks, i have shifted a bit in attitude. like the soldier that throws my body out there to be riddled with bullets so other women and men can speak out without all the attacks. you know drawing the fire, the ants, the heat.

just different. interesting.

but... one of these days this board will be lost and we will all walk and it will be the coveted 4 chan.

redq, BB, betty, baine get the same shit. maybe respected a tad more. depends on the poster. i am thinking of a few regular little nippin at the heels type. always there. always irritating barking.

i really am getting an attitude, arent i. lol. too much

[whathehell]

51. Does he say that to gays and lesbians?...To the racial/ethnic minorities on the site?

Short answer: NO.....Those groups he

pays attention to. He's giving us a "softball" bs solution which amounts to

"do it yourselves, I'm not helping you", because he cares MUCH more, for whatever

reason(s) about them than us. We have little to zero status here...As Nation writer

Katha Pollitt says: "Misogyny is the last acceptable prejudice on the Left".

[haikugal]

17. But there are restrictions on posts about Israel and Palestine.

I had thought we'd made more progress...

[Little Star]

18. All I can say is it took a long time before they understood what...

the LGBT community was telling them.

NGU there is hope.

[haikugal]

20. Absolutely...!!!!!

We need to push back...we've been too quiet. Act up!! LOL

[Little Star]

21. lol. Seriously don't act up too much. They had a lot of good people banned before..

the admins could finally hear what they were saying.

[haikugal]

22. Well I've been banned for speaking out before so nothing new there.

Any good feminist groups or forums around? LOL DU has changed...

[seabeyond]

25. been too quiet? get louder? really? OK. lets do it.

i am doing a bit of teasing cause of the last post i just did. and welcome if you are who i remember.

[haikugal]

33. I hope who you remember does come back...

we could use her! I wasn't banned here but I left for a long time after 'the change'....I just recently started posting again. I'm willing...it's the only way this will be resolved. We need to be heard...loud and proud as it were LOL! Maybe the gay community will support our efforts?!

[seabeyond]

36. ah, unfortunately we had to excellent loud voices from that community walk a month or so ago.

i hope they come back from a well deserved break. but, it is not looking like it.

[haikugal]

38. A lot of good people aren't here anymore...

none the less, we're here. I'm not going on patrol but I'll take note of BS when I see it and there is a lot of it around. Our culture is devolving in many ways....it's Randian. No matter...we need to fight back. PUSH!!! If we give up our children suffer. Look at what the black community has gone through and continues to go through. We can't be silent. I wish I was healthy enough to attend marches and gatherings but I have to content myself with what I can do on the net or nearby. I'll do what I can, always have. I'll pay for it too...that's a given!

[seabeyond]

40. randian? curious.

agreed. the net is the place too. a couple years ago articles was saying how the definition of new wave feminism, is technology. it was interesting. and we are seeing how that is very much true. so many instances. just the other day i was saying to self, that we say our voice on the net is no big deal and accomplishes little, to bemoan our effort. but, it matters. it changes minds. people acknowledge and confirm that. and it is what is being heard world wide.

i think that is why we are getting such ugly backlash from men and this being their space. they are hanging on by fingernails, i believe.

no, women cannot shut up and give the space over. and that is what we are seeing more and more. and in the last couple months it has been so evident.

i think that is the base of the fear.

[haikugal]

42. Yes!

I even managed to change a RW truck driver on a very conservative website to being prochoice. It was a very hard slog but one person changed his mind. (My being on that forum is a long story)

Culture degradation = Randian thinking, as in Ayn Rand. Probably doesn't make a lot of sense, it's short hand I suppose. I can't use my computer properly without repairs so I can't write long texts and explanations. Besides, you do it so much better!

Great thread!

[seabeyond]

44. thanks. i thought that is what you were referring to.

i have had enough people say that their views have shifted. and isnt that what it is all about.

good seeing you. you allowed me to think further. that is always a good thing. and fun.

[haikugal]

46. *BIG smile*

We need these connections to remind ourselves of the power of ONE sometimes. Women rising! YES!

[Helen Reddy]

3. Men run this site.

Could be a dilemma for them, removing misogynistic language could possibly reduce discussion by what? 50% or more?

Just sayin'

[whathehell]

4. This is disgusting.

If we're serious about ourselves and this supposedly "progressive" site showing

the RESPECT they show for OTHER groups (under pain of being tombstoned)

we need to do more.

[Helen Reddy]

7. Indeed.

I have seen many great pro-women feminist be discarded from this site for their PRO-WOMEN views! Many others who feel powerless and leave or who threaten to leave. Some feel being pro-women means anti-men....HUH?

One of our more prolific feminist just yesterday messaged me and said she is done with this. The surrender in her tone was real.

[whathehell]

10. I'm feeling the same way

Please tell me the feminist you speak of isn't Seabeyond.

[seabeyond]

26. second wind.

but, those second winds are not lasting as long as they use to.

[MadrasT]

6. Maybe we need to show them our "tits".

[Helen Reddy]

8. OH lawdy

I was going to make a "boob" joke but.....never mind.

[whathehell]

11. Um, no...How 'bout instead, they line up for us for a "cock comparison"?

Think that would work

[Helen Reddy]

12. I have an "innie" myself.

[CrispyQ]

16. I didn't get that at first.

[CrispyQ]

15. Naw, just make them take off their shirts & show off their pecs & biceps.

A few years ago Special K cereal had a commercial where a group of men were congregated. One man asks his friend, "Do these jeans make my butt look big?" The camera spans across the room & another man says, "I feel so fat today." Of course the commercial goes on to sell Special K to women so as to keep your figure.

In the 'tits' thread I asked what the comments would be if the women were 50-100 pounds overweight. We know what they would be.

[seabeyond]

27. OMFG... no fuckin shit and if that did not get a huge belly laugh.

oh, you got me on that one. you really did.

love you.

love you all

[BainsBane]

69. Okay, so I write the new TOS on my breasts

and post them in ATA?

[seabeyond]

70. out loud ha hahahahah. kids even looked up on this one. ya,

give 'em some boobs. that might work

funny you.

[MadrasT]

71. That tactic has crossed my mind (n/t)

[seabeyond]

72. ok.

who has the biggest. cause the men have made it clear, bigger the stupider.

[LiberalLoner]

30. You can bring change about the same way change is usually brought about

By exposing the flaws of a group, to the gaze of those outside the group. Facebook, twitter, writing to writers like Jezebel, anyone who will stand with us.

Us trying to plead within DU, to admin, is exactly like begging Rush Limbaugh to moderate his views. Sometimes it's better thinking outside the box, once you are convinced the organization can not be fixed from within.

[Whisp]

34. Us trying to plead within DU, to admin, is exactly like begging Rush Limbaugh to moderate his views.

What you said.

This is the truth.

Once that is accepted, maybe there are other ways to deal instead of beating heads against walls.

One other way I may choose is just not participate in the sexist trolling. If they only have themselves to play with, I think the fun would sort of fizzle for them.

[haikugal]

35. BINGO!!!!

I don't do pleading....LOL

[whathehell]

50. Do you think we can do this? n/t

[LiberalLoner]

54. I'm not sure we would achieve our goals but it seems worth a try if

All attempts to reform the organization from within are blocked.

Let me give an example of what I am talking about.

When I was a CPT in the Army, a soldier came to me very upset, saying a dentist had forced her to submit to a breast exam in order to get her wisdom teeth out.

The way the Army works, if you want to advance, you have to remain deployable. You are not, if you still have your wisdom teeth.

So this Army oral surgeon was using his position to essentially molest young female soldiers. He did not require breast exams of older or unattractive active soldiers. Nor were the exams done in a normal manner. For instance he had them strip in front of floor to ceiling windows with soldiers walking right by on the sidewalk, looking in. No privacy.

I fought this from the inside. Went to CID (police) and at first they wanted to convict but commanding General on post said no, end it here. So I went to the IG and it went all the way up to DA IG with no results. Went to DACOWITS, no result. In the meantime my chain of command was exerting great pressure on me to shut up because I had made it my mission on weekends to warn female soldiers wherever I could find them. Word was getting out, females brought escorts with them to clinic.

But no results until I resigned my commission and threatened to go to the press. And did in fact contact local newspaper who then contacted the incoming commanding general. Perhaps this new general would have fixed things anyway, but I wonder if the threat of the press was a factor.

Anyway yeah sometimes you have to go outside the box to effect positive change.

[seabeyond]

57. Anyway yeah sometimes you have to go outside the box to effect positive change.

i think this is what i was particularly feeling about the Op i started yesterday. we are not just a voice with women on du. we are a world wide voice. and that is what make the net grand to be heard. and not losing space. and women all over the net is recognizing the effort of man to create the hostile net space for women. and the misogyny in the tech world that has power over the net space.

there is richards. the was a gamers convention that had scantly dressed girls dancing to entertain the men, regardless it is a mandatory conference that all had to go to. 2 or 3 members of the board quit immediately. a woman that uses this game company with her company told them.... nope. not using you no more.

that went out immediately. the boss man went to bed feeling fine and woke up to this. he did an about face immediately.

that told me. instead of women going up the line being afraid to speak out, and women having businesses and trying to get along, with more women in these positions, and enlightened supportive men, we can attack, instead of submit and make a difference.

[LiberalLoner]

60. Yup, exactly!

[Whisp]

32. Seeing as we are not getting any answers

I guess it's time to make up our own then.

1. One reason may be that Skinner would feel he's 'giving in' to the womenz, and the menz will give him flack for that - that Herd thing is powerful.

2. Maybe he is just angry at a few of us, and is taking it out on all of us?

3. ... fill in your ideas.

[seabeyond]

37. lol lol

i can see both one and two. very perceptive and insightful.

[Whisp]

39. one thing I noticed when I did that ATA to Skinner

I mentioned that horrible ad with the Asian girl that looked very young - the 'dating' service. I know arguing about it on Meta at the time got a lot of the howling regulars telling me that Asian women look young, etc., all the bullshit protective stupid talk that we all know....

Skinner told me in ATA that he did finally remove that ad (or the site address, whichever, I forget that detail).

Now why did he do that in secret? He made no effort to let us know that our complaints about that ad were being dealt with and that we were actually being heard and understood. You would think that would be a big Plus.

Why would he do that in secret?

probably because he was afraid of what that particular group of guys would think of him.

[seabeyond]

41. exactly. yes, i caught that also.

it is like with hubby that REFUSES to talk. lol. and it is all about ego. instead of recognizing a couple words end all. and there is piece. just cannot. give. it. up.

that is why i go back and forth on this with administration. and being blunt and honest and straightforward, i know it is not my issue. that they create this.

agreed. i saw that.

oh, and to be clear.... you and i talking like this would fall under your number TWO. lol

[Whisp]

43. oh, I definitely know I'm a #2.

I have some problems with 'authoritay' and refuse to feel inferior or apologetic to the rule makers.

[seabeyond]

45. i wouldnt have said it a year ago. lol. the last 6 months or especially a couple Op of yours

i am remembering. ya. lol.

[seabeyond]

48. so, whatthehell? what the hell?

[whathehell]

49. What the hell?....I'm getting completely disgusted...If we're not going to be backed up by

the adminsitrators (all men -- what a big surprise!) I'm not sure if anything will get better here, and, frankly,

I may be ready to just dump DU.


It's too depressing. I came on here on Friday afternoon and started fighting over

the "tits" threads and it's all but ruined my entire weekend. I'm tired of feeling shit on

and disrespected...Who needs that?

[sigmasix]

53. i hope you all stay

and continue to educate and inform. Well-meaning and interested individuals will almost always listen to and appreciate a truthful assesment. It may feel like your attentions have no effect, but that just aint so. Sometimes social battles are won, one person at a time.
I cannot fathom the reasoning behind not including misogynistic language as a TOS violation. I don't know Skinner and I've only been a member for 6 or 7 months, but perhaps he is under the impression that the reasons for misogynistic behaviors and language are education-related and he feels that feminist critique of the offensive notions will be a more powerful deterrent than using the TOS to shut it out completely. If this is the notion being emphasized, it seems to be in need of further review and attention as many members have complained that the approach is not just or equitable.
Just please stay here at DU and continue doing what you do- the loss of even one DU voice in favor of equality is too much.

[seabeyond]

59. i didnt acknowledge your post i read elsewhere, and that is wrong. lol. i was tired, while reading

and yes. you are right. that one person at a time counts for a hell of a lot.

[seabeyond]

58. yes. and it is that close. and that is the intent. it is that close for too many women.

we will see. when we are allowed to throw up OPs of naked people at will, then there is no community standard. and i fear the site is 4 chan.

[Whisp]

64. money talks.

in just about any situation.

Dump your star(s), that is the Only thing that will be listened to.

[ellenrr]

52. i'm recent here. for the longest time I thot there was no forum//groups had to do with women/feminis

now that I'm here...would anyone care to briefly give me a history of the OP?
what is TOS?
as far as someone on this thread asked about what forums do feminists visit?
It's really hard. I'm 65 and back in the day there were dozens of outlets for expressing feminist views.
nowadays I am always looking and have never found a place to perch.

[seabeyond]

63. welcome to HOF. there are a number of feminist and womens right groups.

du2 TOS stated that sexism and misogyny was not allowed. when we came over to du3, this new board without moderators, the administration took that out of TOS. with jury voting to allow the sexist garbage to stand, and a weak TOS the women on du and men supporters have suggest the administration add no sexism/misogyny allowed.

we have not been successful.

[ellenrr]

73. thanks. n/t

[whathehell]

66. Hi elenrr...TOS means "terms of service"

Basically the "rules" on DU.

[Callmecrazy]

55. Yawn

[boston bean]

56. poster has been blocked.

if we are boring them and putting them to sleep discussing an issue that means something to us. They probably aren't here in good faith.

[seabeyond]

62. ass.

see. easy

[whathehell]

65. Thanks for your expectedly clueless input, yawn.

[whathehell]

77. HA !

"Mr. Clueless, in the Women's Room with a candlestick up his ass".


I love it.