What Men Say About Women When They Think You've Never Been One

[redqueen]

http://www.bilerico.com/2012/04/what_men_say_about_women_when_they_think_youve_nev.php#.T5gnp0Qnl30.facebook

I'm a trans man who's been on hormones for about 5 months. My voice is a lot lower than it used to be, and I have a pretty cute, if wily, crop of facial hair going on. As a result, I've started passing as male pretty much all the time. It's a new thing, and it's a lot to digest.

People often ask me if I get treated differently when I'm read as male versus when I used to be read as female. Hmmmmaybe. Really, there are too many subtle wavelengths to any human interaction to know which are directly connected to how people are reading my gender.

But there is one stark and tangible difference in how the world responds to me, and that's the types of things that men (specifically cis-gendered straight men) talk to me about.

Men say horrifying and revolting things to you about women when they think you've never been one.

(More at link.)

I'm hoping, this group being what it is, that I won't be crucified for the writer's failure to stipulate that he is referring to some men, and not all men. There is an exchange about that in the comments there, if one would like to delve into those shallow waters.

[seabeyond]

1. damn. in one of my Ops i was going to say.... some men. the author said men

now, i will go in and read your article. lol

[seabeyond]

2. owning B****. hm. here is more. " I was too cowardly to speak up"

Yes, and when you try and throw a private degradation-of-black-people party between just you and me, you're assuming that saying racially oppressive things is both less oppressive when you do it in private and also something I think is cool and fun. Neither are true.

My impression is that cis-men make these kinds of comments to me with the intention of establishing camaraderie, bringing me into the fold. I think it's an impulse towards some weird version of intimacy--establishing our common reality as "men." Unfortunately, the reality described (and produced) by the above comments is not the one I live in. I say "produced" because, for the same reason that saying n*gger in private amongst white people creates enduring racism, making these kinds of disgusting comments about women amongst "just men" (which, as a category, is less coherent when I'm included) creates enduring sexism. Our words become our thoughts, which become our habits.

In almost all the examples above, I was too cowardly to speak up against the offending commenters. I was scared of outing myself as trans, and also scared of how these men would react if I rejected what I think amounts to a bizarro form of hospitality - an invitation into the clubhouse.

That's not ok, and this is my commitment to change my behavior. We all need to make a commitment not to tacitly condone these private oppressive rituals of maleness, whether as trans men, as cis-men, as women, and everyone else. Yes, I have roots as a female-bodied and female-identified person, but you don't need to have history as a woman to respect women.

_______________________

understanding that it is a way of male camaraderie, that is exactly why he was too cowardly to stand up. and why many men dont. they feel that if internally they dont agree, or are even bothered, then they are not a part. but the silence allows the continual cycle.

good article.

[hlthe2b]

3. Yes... but likewise when women laugh alongside men's use of such horrific terms/objectifcation...

in a bizarre sense of "being allowed into the group" that sends an even bigger signal that "it is ok." How do we get through to them?

[seabeyond]

5. "being allowed into the group" again, true that

and most women, once they hit a certain age are not allowed in that group, regardless how hard they laugh. most will recognize and start shifting. some never will.

[redqueen]

6. Not that you asked me, :P

but IMO we need more people to speak up, men and women. It's too easy to just go along to get along. It seems to me that many people just keep quiet to avoid looking like a prude, pearl-clutching humorless 'bad' kind of feminist.

That only helps those who work so very hard to push the idea that anyone who disagrees is some 'paleo-feminist' who deserves to be mocked, scorned and ignored. Silence is helping them to promote their views as the socially approved (and therefore somehow implicitly correct, despite all the history of former socially approved bullcrap) ones.

[hlthe2b]

7. Yup...

How do we get younger women to do so--those who may not understand the stakes?

[redqueen]

8. Other than simply making the most of teachable moments,

I don't know.

Organizations like About Face, Object!, and Miss Representation do a lot. Promoting those can only help.

[Little Star]

4. "But there is one stark and tangible difference in how the world responds to me"...

This man has walked in our shoes. His words are a welcome validation of what feminists have been saying.

I admire him very much for having the courage to have written about this. It must be very scary. I know I would be scared to say anything.

Thanks for the article. k&r

[BlueIris]

10. I was thinking about that, too. Based on what he wrote, he has just started to "pass"

as male among cis-men, and is willing to risk rejection by other males in order to expose the bigotry he has encountered. It is very brave.

[BlueIris]

9. Jesus Christ. #2 is vile. (Graphic warning for this post.)

"2. 'What's black and blue and doesn't like sex? The eight-year-old girl in my trunk.'

This was a 'joke' somebody told me a few weekends ago while we were rock climbing. He said it was ok because he didn't come up with the joke. He was standing ready to catch me while I was climbing to make sure I didn't fall and crack my head open. He was also giving me lots of good advice about climbing. Rather than risk seeming somehow ungrateful for his spotting and good advice, I shamefully kept quiet about his joke."


***

That comment is way, way beyond sexism and even misogyny. "Jokes" about child rape are horrifying on a much deeper level.

Also, I counted six comments before someone whipped out the 'it's not all men' defense. That writer did not say all men or promote stereotypes about men by reporting his randomly overheard conversations. But you'd think the 'you're promoting stereotypes' defenders would note the significance of how easy it was for a man to encounter those types of remarks in just a few short weeks time.

[MadrasT]

11. How dare we point out

And call out

Men who say horrible and degrading things about women.

That *obviously* makes us man hating misandysts.

We are *obviously* supposed to sit down, shut up, and just let "boys be boys".



Having gotten that snark off my chest (oh wait, should I say "off my tits" so I can be all cool and have the guys like me?)



Let's try again...






Having gotten that off my chest, I know of an interesting book that relates to this that I will post later to this thread once I get to an actual computer.

[MadrasT]

12. As promised in post #11

"Self Made Man: One Woman's Journey into Manhood and Back" by Norah Vincent is a fascinating book.

Amazon link to 'Self-Made Man'

She disguised herself as a man and lived as a man for 18 months to try to understand what life was like for men.

Following in the tradition of John Howard Griffin (Black Like Me) and Barbara Ehrenreich (Nickel and Dimed), Norah Vincent absorbed a cultural experience and reported back on what she observed incognito. For more than a year and a half she ventured into the world as Ned, with an ever-present five o’clock shadow, a crew cut, wire-rim glasses, and her own size 111/2 shoes—a perfect disguise that enabled her to observe the world of men as an insider. The result is a sympathetic, shrewd, and thrilling tour de force of immersion journalism that’s destined to challenge preconceptions and attract enormous attention.

With her buddies on the bowling league she enjoyed the rough and rewarding embrace of male camaraderie undetectable to an outsider. A stint in a high-octane sales job taught her the gut- wrenching pressures endured by men who would do anything to succeed. She frequented sex clubs, dated women hungry for love but bitter about men, and infiltrated all-male communities as hermetically sealed as a men’s therapy group, and even a monastery. Narrated in her utterly captivating prose style and with exquisite insight, humor, empathy, nuance, and at great personal cost, Norah uses her intimate firsthand experience to explore the many remarkable mysteries of gender identity as well as who men are apart from and in relation to women. Far from becoming bitter or outraged, Vincent ended her journey astounded—and exhausted—by the rigid codes and rituals of masculinity. Having gone where no woman (who wasn’t an aspiring or actual transsexual) has gone for any significant length of time, let alone eighteen months, Norah Vincent’s surprising account is an enthralling reading experience and a revelatory piece of anecdotally based gender analysis that is sure to spark fierce and fascinating conversation.

There is also an interview with her about this book on NPR: Norah Vincent: The Woman Behind 'Self-Made' Man

I read the book about a year ago and was captivated. The biggest thing I remember from reading the book was that she came away from the experience with a lot of compassion about the extraordinarily rigid gender role that society imposes on men. I especially remember her talking about how the only emotion men were "allowed" to express is anger -- how other types of emotion are trained out of them at a young age, and how that limits the ways that men are able to relate to each other and to women in the world.

She ended up feeling a lot of compassion toward men from the experience. She also experienced firsthand what male privilege feels like and I believe she was rather surprised about that.

It is also interesting to me that she commented that as a butch lesbian, she is frequently perceived as being a "masculine" woman... and as a man, she was perceived as being an rather effeminate man.

Just wanted to toss in a different perspective, and also link to a good gender-related read.

Personally, I wish we could get away altogether from the rigid binary view of gender. It is so much more complex and nuanced than just male vs. female. People lose a lot of self when they feel forced by society to fit neatly into the Male Box or the Female Box.

She identifies as a woman (she is not transgender) and ended up having a nervous breakdown at the end of the 18 months because it was so much of a mindfuck to have to present to the world as a gender that does not match her brain. I believe in the NPR interview she also mentioned the compassion she developed toward transgender folks who haven't transitioned (their external presentation) to their brain-gender, because living with that gender-disconnect is their reality all the time.

[redqueen]

13. Summarizes fairly well why the very concept of 'gender' is absolute bullshit.

If only people would stop insisting that such indoctrination has any positives.

[seabeyond]

14. ok, so i am good. and right. i listened to the interview

very interesting. of course, i cannot retain all. but people should listen to this woman.

she mentions how gender is in the brain, almost suggesting the difference of gender, but in all her conversation of gender difference it is clearly conditioned in us. emotion. this was fun. along with the fetus thread i did, being girl and kicked into boy. the boy has the emotion like a girl and it is punched, kicked, repressed out of him. tones.... the high pitched, excitement and words, again conditioned out of the boy. tramp down. my 14 yr old son the other day said something to me like.... this is so sweet, you will like it. i immediately got a huge grin and hugged him and said, "my boy, at 14 still uses the word sweet. no self respecting 14 yr old boy would ever use the word sweet. i love you so......" he is good not to worrying about that. totally secure in his "manliness". speaks from emotional self if he wants, and is accepted by friends..... oldest son and i dont know how he gets away with it, but he does and is well received.

the mouthy, sexist, denigrating talk is bluster. to cover up the high esteem for women, that he has to cover for his buddies. or to hide the vulnerability of perceived power a woman has in their life or a hurt. this is what i have always seen and felt from men (boys havent really learned it yet, they still express the vulnerability or hurt or humiliation). that is why when men "perform" for us on du, i dont think they realize that it is a huge spotlight shined on them exactly what they are really saying for all of us to see. the very thing they are hiding is being highlighted and shouted out.

the direct manner and few words. this is another where she seems to be saying is in the brain, that i contend is conditioning. i have two boys that talk, a lot. i have two brothers and a father that talk, a lot. (maybe not with other men, but certainly with me. so still well within their ability. which she did not touch on). the privilege of ability to demand, with few words. her discussion that women ought to pick this up. the problem here, is this is how i talk. when i talk this way with men, they get pissed. i am the b*****. they cant handle it. they say women use too many words. shorten the amount of words. talk like a man, and watch the reaction. women are conditioned and made to talk all nicey, tippy toeing and if they dont, they are attacked. they are not listened to or well received if talking like a man and certain not heard. shut out.

heterosexual manhood much more limited. i realized this in so many ways, but she allowed me to see it even beyond wht i knew, which is a nifty and interesting insight.

then the conclusion of gender false concept and trying to have to live up to the role.

all very good stuff and fun. thank you for this madras....

[seabeyond]

15. ex. quit screaming like a girl....

when boys were young 2ish to 4ish... having two boys and two nephews over often. i would tell husband what the hell are they talking about girls screaming. the boys had such a high pitched squeal of excitement they sounded like the squeal of a little pig.

you would hear men say, quit screaming like a girl.

never did you hear anyone say to the girl, quit screaming like a boy. they would say, there she is, being a girl.

what did we create?

[redqueen]

16. Society works so hard to force these differences on us.

So fed up with it.

[MadrasT]

17. However, women (and girls) are not allowed to be angry.

Interesting that anger is the only emotion men are allowed by society... yet it is one emotion that is really viewed negatively in women.

I remember battling guilt about feeling and expressing anger for decades. Women are not supposed to be angry, let alone express anger. Rage is out of the question. (And if we express anger, well then we must be suffering from a hysterical hormonal imbalance due to being slaves to our menstrual cycles, dontcha know? God forbid that we could feel and express genuine, justified anger about anything.)

It's just nuts.

[seabeyond]

18. anger is the only emotion men are allowed by society... one emotion...negatively in women.

further with your nuttier, and i love this point of yours especially for anyone that would just take a moment to consider it....

further

not only is a woman attack as being female, hysterical, but if a man emotes any emotion other that anger, he is attack as a female, too. lol

[seabeyond]

19. goes along with this subthread. world blaming eve and the preacher blaming women....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002659105#post1

always the woman as bad

[seabeyond]

20. sorry... more. further,

i am into universal laws.

not to mention not being the authentic self, we are asking men to contradict what they are feeling which is even more absurd. to keep up the manly front that women are only a fuck and men need women for no more than that, we are asking them to deny the very human characteristic of needing/wanting a close and connected mate.

people talk about how we are not a monogamous animal. but we never take into account the almost universal desire to find the "right" person. deep within. that we never discuss but have example of being from beginning of time.

and we are telling our men to lie to themselves. that is mucho damaging, lying to self. 100x's worse that lying to others.

[MadrasT]

21. I agree that

most humans have a deep need for intimate connection with at least one other human.

I think a lot of the desire to find the "right" person is an unhealthy fantasy, but that is another topic. I also believe some humans are monogamous, and some humans are not, and that humans can be either, and do it ethically and in a healthy way. I know a number of polyamorous people who have multiple concurrent partners. Everybody knows about all the relationships with everyone else, nothing sneaky and no cheating is involved. On the other hand, I know for a fact that I am wired as monogamous and that has nothing to do with cultural conditioning, but it is just my constitution. (I don't personally have the emotional energy for more than one concurrent intimate relationship.)

ANYWAY...

...my BF and I were talking about this very thing recently... theorizing that maybe some men end up fixating on sex because it is the ONLY WAY they are allowed to be intimate and close to a woman. They can't be emotionally intimate or emotionally close in any other way because society views that as a weakness in men. So they end up being fixated on sex (which is about the need for human connection more than the need for the actual sex act in and of itself).

(That is all his theory, as seen from five decades of being a man, and a long time student of psychology.)

[seabeyond]

22. maybe some men end up fixating on sex because it is the ONLY WAY

one big circle. that is taking it one step further. i think it is about a given. but, ya.

the almost....

the self protection.....

self denying....

i leave it open if there can be a healthy polygamy. i have done some reading and find that there is a lot of unhealthy. but i certain believe there are others that can live that life. but we have personal protections that defend, justify, validate, excuse, comfort choices we make. so how much is real or not, i cannot say. i am sure there are those that do not need a connection with one. how much is innate or nurtured from experience i dont know. i dont believe it is a large number, but believe there would be a fringe. i do know that we all have our own unique needs. i have a very low need of another. my brother must have people around and a partner. my husband is about middle of the road.


very interesting. thanks for all this matras.

[MadrasT]

23. To be fair

i leave it open if there can be a healthy polygamy. i have done some reading and find that there is a lot of unhealthy. but i certain believe there are others that can live that life.

I have seen a lot of unhealthy, dysfunctional multiple partner relationships that people try to justify by calling it "polyamory".

It is a rare person who can manage that lifestyle gracefully and ethically and in a way that is healthy and fulfilling for all people involved.

More often than not it results in a regular fuck-ton of drama and hurt feelings. (Just my own feeling, based on my own observations and not on any kind of documented research.)

One partner is all I can manage, and my ability to manage that is questionable, LOL.

[BlueIris]

25. Self Made Man sounds like a great book.

Thanks!

[One_Life_To_Give]

24. Going to have a Wife named Rosey

Talk like that they deserve each other.