"Yes means maybe, and maybe means no"

[redqueen]

I love the way this woman spells it all out. I have to quote her again.

http://radtransfem.wordpress.com/2012/01/23/under-duress-agency-power-and-consent-part-two-yes/

...

Radical (and some other) feminists identify a ubiquitous pressure against women’s consent which is part of and partially created by rape culture. In an interview discussing her book, Are Women Human?: And Other International Dialogues, Catharine MacKinnon described it as follows:

The (sexist) assumption is that women can be unequal to men economically, socially, culturally, politically, and in religion, but the moment they have sexual interactions, they are free and equal. That’s the assumption – and I think it ought to be thought about, and in particular what consent then means… My view is that when there is force or substantially coercive circumstances between the parties, individual consent is beside the point.

Radical feminists argue that the concept of a straightforward “yes” is unique to those groups who don’t experience pressure on their consent. A “yes” under pressure can’t be unequivocally understood as “yes” because it may mean “maybe” or indeed “no”. The act of a man taking a woman’s “yes” as a “yes” is an act which directly denies conditions of sex inequality between men and women under patriarchy.

Properly, the radical feminist understanding of consent can’t be summed-up as an “x means y” statement. When under duress, there’s no such thing as a simple “yes” or “no”; the very idea of a statement ‘meaning’ one of those things becomes questionable when an answer may have as much (or more) to do with the power factors at play than with what a person really wants to communicate.

...

Someday many more people will catch up with her, and we won't have to struggle to be heard on issues of consent. We seem to be a long, long way away from that at the moment, though.

[BainsBane]

1. We women don't really know what we want

men have to be insistent to make sure we submit. That's what "prominent feminists" from the last century insist. So it must be true.

[redqueen]

2. What sickens me is the idea that they'd even WANT to pressure someone who didn't want to fuck them.

Seriously, how does scum like that sleep at night?

[BainsBane]

3. hmm

[ismnotwasm]

4. They think they 'deserve' "it"

You know in Stephan Kings book "It" he actually implies an analogy between his monster and references to sex and sexual acts as 'it'?

I don't know whether he meant it like that or not, but I ponder that sometimes when I think of sexist inequities;

'It'--an impersonal act that somehow men can rationalize into a right.

There are other words of separation from the personal and intimate of course, 'some' being one. "Hit" another and so on.

[redqueen]

6. You just reminded me of the scene where she has sex with each of the boys...

that scene always freaked me out.

[ismnotwasm]

10. That is exactly why it comes to mind, pardon the pun

In the book, he describes that sex as an exchange of power, with no shame or coercion, ignoring the basic and embedded gender inequity, probably because the ARE kids. It's a clumsy scene, however well-intentioned; the last sexual power she feels is her first, pre-pubescent hetero, multi-partner experience as Bev goes on to marry an incredibly abusive asshole.

King is not a feminist author by a long shot but he has some interesting insights.

[Mnemosyne]

5. Redqueen, they never give it a second thought, other than to impress themselves, and others, with

their "way with women". They sleep too well at night, imo.

[redqueen]

7. I have to hope that eventually some snap out of it, and feel remorse.

I'm sure a few do. Hopefully not only after they have a daughter themselves whose feelings they're pretty much forced to consider.

[BainsBane]

8. Waiting for remorse is a lot cause

better criminal prosecution is the answer.

[redqueen]

11. Yeah, I don't see that happening anytime soon, not in this country anyway.

At least this law has probably been changed by now.
http://jezebel.com/5973087/california-court-declares-that-its-not-rape-if-the-sleeping-women-isnt-married

As we have seen, though, girls can be gang raped and have the case thrown out by the police... so we have a long, long, long way to go before enforcement comes anywhere near being much help at all.

[Mnemosyne]

9. That is what I hope for also, that their daughters teach them how wrong it was to act in such ways.

We can dream, can't we?

[nomorenomore08]

12. A valid point RE: how people's choices are constrained by culture.

But of course some will twist this into "All sex is rape!" or equivalent nonsense...