Why 'I prefer small boobs' isn't helping.

[redqueen]

We touched on this in the funnies thread, but this piece tackles the issue of objectification and the way even more objectification is provided as a way to 'help' in a more serious and thorough manner.

“I like small boobs.” “I actually prefer untrimmed pubic hair.” “Ew, skinny girls! Eat a sandwich, amirite?” They’re inevitable contributions to any thread discussing women’s bodies, always offered by men as a word of comfort to insecure women or as valuable male insight into the male gaze.

Thanks for thinking of us, guys, but trust me: We get insight into the male gaze every day. We’re soaking in it, and in a way most men don’t actually recognize. We’re given insight into the male gaze by random men hooting at us on the sidewalk. “Don’t worry, insecure girl, there are people out there who think you’re hot” isn’t a revolutionary perspective, and thinking it’s a necessary contribution to a thread about female objectification and body image demonstrates a lack of understanding of the subject. The real impact of the male gaze, and objectification, and judgment, is about way more than beer commercials, Playboy pictorials, and who does and doesn’t have to pay her own bar tab.

It’s about casting directors who automatically cast large-breasted actresses to play The Slut or The Airhead, and who automatically cast fat actresses as The Desperate Single Friend Who Eats All the Time. It’s about women who get kicked off of planes for outfits that would be deemed perfectly inoffensive on a less-blonde, less-busty woman. It’s about women who aren’t traditionally attractive getting not getting hired,and women who are traditionally attractive not getting taken seriously in the workplace. It’s about elementary school teachers who favor pretty girls over the less-pretty ones. It’s about dismissing rape accusations because you’re either not sexy enough to get raped or so sexy you must have been asking for it. It’s about men at work and out in the world who automatically assume you’re flirting just because you have breasts in their presence. It’s about the women you fuck vs. the women you marry. It’s about having your eating habits criticized regardless, whether it’s Ew, push away from the buffet or Ew, eat a sandwich. It’s about character actors who can cover the full spectrum of physical appearance and character actresses who get cut off at “quirky-looking.” It’s about teen movies where first you get the makeover, then you get the guy. It’s about never seeing yourself represented on TV or in movies because 90 percent of the world doesn’t look like 90 percent of Hollywood.

The message isn’t just you’re unfuckable,although that’s generally part of it. The message is there’s something wrong with you, and it’s one that affects women every day, everywhere, in every context. And the opinion of one complete stranger on the Internet isn’t going to fix that.

http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2012/04/09/why-i-prefer-small-boobs-isnt-helping/

More at link.

[exboyfil]

1. The mind is what turns me on

Give me a smart girl any day. One who can dazzle me with her brilliance. Actually I remember those girls as being highly sought after in High School. Pretty much any girl was out of my league, but I was attracted to the smart ones. The ones with doctorates now doing great things (some became lawyers). One girl in particular I would have spent significant time with if I could get past the height issue (she was 6 inches taller than me). I still have regrets on that one. Not sure she would have been interested anyway. She looked back on her High School years as hell, and I regret that (nothing I did except not step up more to be a better friend). I was so immature in High School and scared to death to talk to girls.

[seabeyond]

4. an interesting

and i have known this because i have heard it from the boys and men in my life forever.

the qualities attract for both gender have to do with characters and personality. really, the looks grow. whether initially attracted or not, it is the qualities of the person that attracts. for most of us anyway. there is a thread in the lounge asking what you think is sexy. both gender mostly discussed personalities and charcteristics.

it is when men are talking to each other, to out do each other that we hear the fake stuff... and that really is all about their ego. but the thread, when really answering in truth, was enlightening. and always does my heart good.

[arcane1]

8. Looks can grow in more than one direction, too

More than once I've been repulsed by someone I initially thought of as attractive, once I found how how ugly they were on the inside.

[seabeyond]

9. yes... agreed. i was thinking that as typing

just didnt feel the need to add, because that really was not the point of what i was saying. but, yes. you are absolutely right.

not long ago, i was talking to hubby and not remembering what. but, i told him, i can see how others would think he is good looking, but who he is makes it so he is so unattractive to me.

whomever it was, was stronger enough for me to say out loud.

[hlthe2b]

2. I wonder what percentage of men would read that and actually "get it"....

Some do, surely, but....

[redqueen]

14. Few, I suspect.

Remember the matrix cartoon? (if not it's at the sinfest link in my sig)

It's like that.

[upaloopa]

3. Just wondering, aren't men objectified by women? Aren't men cast in roles

based on sexual characteristics?

I'm not saying objectification is a good thing but I think it is done by both sexes to the opposite sex.

As a more baser instinct, it is also part of the drive for all animals to procreate.

Some female animals seek out males that they think will provide strong healthy offspring. Some male animals seek out females for the same reason.

We do have some of the same instincts as animals. We are made that way.

I wonder some times if we aren't fighting against our own instincts.

I also know of men who are creeps to women. I hate to see it and I hate that my sex has those men as a part of us.

[redqueen]

11. Yes, it is also done to men, just 5x less often.

However, even that limited amount has resulted in a rise in eating disorders among boys and men, and increased plastic surgery for men.

The idea that any behavior is primitive (whether or not it actually is) is not a rational defense for continuing the behavior.

[upaloopa]

20. I'm throwing this out just as another "I wonder if."

I wonder if some of the negative effects that people have, because there is a standard that is held up to them that they can't meet, aren't caused by the person's lack of self acceptance?

Again I am not saying objectification is a good thing and I am not offering excuses, but I may be coming at this from a different perspective.

In the early 80's I joined a nudist club. I met my wife there. Her family had been members before I joined. She, her mom and step dad and her three sisters were members. I met my future in-laws in the nude. Now there are very few if any good looking bodies at a nudist club. The majority of members are older adults who's children have moved out of the house. But there are families whose kids were born nudists and who grew up without any sense of body shame or desire to meet someone else's criteria of what they should look like. I think it is because they were never taught to feel that way. They see all kinds of bodies and all ages and know pretty much that people are not perfect by a long shot.

You couldn't make my wife feel bad by objectifying her nor any of her sisters. We have gone to nude beaches where guys make fools of themselves trying to be voyeurs. My wife and her sisters just laugh at them and get dressed if they are persistent.

My point is that we as a society are very immature and the fact that we let ourselves be objectified may just be because we were taught to feel that way. Someone with a healthy body acceptance can't be objectified.

My wife and I have been putting on more weight lately and I asked her , "shouldn't we be working our more and losing weight?" Her reply was, "you do what you need to do for you and I will do what I need to do for me." I respect her for that.

[seabeyond]

21. you have a point and i do love your post.

i was a competitive swimmer from the mid 60's until the early 80's. might as well have been nude. wasnt hiding anything from anyone. naked most of my life. it was so natural and nonattention drawing. there was nothing there. an acceptance. no adult in that environment would even be allowed to sexualize the kids (teens).

that is why i have such issue today. i know back then it was not a continual inundation of this stuff. sexualizing and pornifying from the youngest of ages. with the net and the normalization of all this in our society and media, the conditioning of a womens worth solely resting on her looks and the examples given to both genders computerized perfection.

we were allowed to be healthy back then.

today, i think it takes a lot of work to get beyond so much we are fed, both genders, to stand in healthy.

it is a different world.

but the underlying basis of what you are saying, i totally agree with.

[redqueen]

22. "Someone with a healthy body acceptance can't be objectified" is a meaningless statement.

Any stranger on the street can objectify anyone simply by shouting some vulgar catcalling.

If your point was that people who grow up around nudists are less susceptible to the damaging amount of objectification and hypersexualization in the media, that may be true, but t does not make the practice therefore harmless, constructive, beneficial, etc.

[iverglas]

18. who casts men in those roles?

I'd rather have seen a movie with Gene Wilder in it than 10 movies with yer average beefcake. Not just because I always thought he was gorgeous.

I also think you'll find it's the persona as much as the appearance that women go for. Cary Grant, the suave sophisticate, Pierce Brosnan, the suave and also sensitive one, Tom Hanks, the sensitive and funny one, and like that. I've done a bad job of cultural diversity here; I will plead that I am too old to be as intimately familiar with African-American stars, for instance, since they were fewer and farther between when I was paying more attention. Aha, Sidney Poitier, the suave and politically admirable one.

And you absolutely don't find the same stereotypical cookie-cutter appearance among male stars. A limited range of appearance, maybe, but a lot less limited.

Besides, most movies are still made for male audiences, and it isn't the female audience's preferences that are the driving force behind cast selection.

[unc70]

23. Is liking GW that different than liking small boobs?

It seems a lot the same to me.

I've had these discussions with friends and family since the 1960's. Among the more interesting perspectives are those with my son, a gay activist, and his friends.

[iverglas]

25. heh heh

You did see the winkie after my comment.

I liked GW for his talent anyhow, and the fact that he was apparently a good spouse, and then took up the cause of ovarian cancer after Gilda Radner's death, is just icing.

I find that for me, I like the way a person I like looks. It's just that simple. Otherwise, I really couldn't care less.

[Dawgs]

5. Really? This is the issue you've decided to make your passion? n/t

[redqueen]

12. Welcome to the History of Feminism Group. Please read the SOP.

I suspect you might not care (most men don't), but this is a serious issue.

http://www.apa.org/pubs/books/4318079.aspx

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1471-6402.t01-1-00076/abstract

http://www.missrepresentation.org/

[seabeyond]

17. you might peruse the threads in the lounge and take a look at the one that starts

"Daddy - I hate my knees - I'm ugly!!"

at 6 yrs old.

those of us with daughters, nieces, sisters, friends that we love, ourselves, have a bit of empathy, concern.

[redqueen]

19. Sad. Six years old and already aware of the importance of hotness.

I wonder how much her parents tried to filter the everpresent hypersexualization of girls and women. It sure isn't easy. That shit is everywhere.

[BlueIris]

24. Really? Pathetic disruption is the way to spend your time on this site?

Sad.

[TexasProgresive]

6. Well how about this

I enjoy being in the company of women, except for those who are the equivalent of men who only see a woman's body- by that, I mean, women who obsess about their own and other women's appearances - all shoes, bags and makeup.

What I like are strong, smart,confident women who because of their wits are attractive.

There are feminine physical attributes that I find sexually attractive but if there is no person in that pretty body it diminishes rapidly. No cute "air heads" in this man's circle of friends.

I don't know if this makes any sense but it is what it is.

[redqueen]

13. It's good that there are so many men who see women as people and not sex objects.

We need more men to stand up to the media which does so much to cater to the people who do think of women as sex objects. By not supporting it and speaking up when such characterizations are voiced by those around us.

[arcane1]

7. The final paragraph is worth clicking the link for.

It made me think of last week's internet fuss over the fact that Hillary Clinton wasn't wearing makeup, and she looked good without it, as if it was some sort of oddity that does not compute.

[seabeyond]

10. ah... good for you posting this. lol. i didnt go in and read the whole.

now i will.

[iverglas]

15. there's often not a lot to be added ;)

I thought I might play a tiny bit of the devil's advocate here. There's one instance in which I think the "I like ..." might not be so horrible.

In recent years, the supposedly ideal female form has been unhealthily underweight, with just no outside limit on how little is little enough. Unhealthy equalling dead, in far too many cases.

Men rejecting that paradigm of female attractiveness is actually a good thing. Young women in particular could benefit by hearing it. And hell, it might even apply to small boobs -- since the self-mutilation women engage in to achieve large boobs can be as plain unhealthy, physically, as starving themselves.

It's just that rejecting the paradigms takes a whole lot more than posting "but I like ..." on internet boards, or even in real life. It takes walking the walk. Not just saying it and demonstrating the opposite at ever turn: ogling women on the street who represent the big-boobed, semi-starved ideal (how many men ogle small-breated or chubby women?), participating in the porn industry that thrives on the unnatural body forms, participating in any public or private discourse that approves of those unnatural forms and/or disapproves of any of the range of natural ones.

Rejecting it in mainstream popular culture is a little harder. But maybe actually speak out against advertisers that model women this way, that sort of thing.

The thing being, it really isn't all about them and what they like; it's about women, and what's important isn't a man or men's approval of particular women's body types, it's rejection of the whole idea that men's approval of how women look is what women need to put uppermost in their minds.

[redqueen]

16. Your last paragrah summed it up quite well.

Which is why it's so important not to support media which pushes that message, and to confront the idea when those around us support it.