How to spot a misogynist

[boston bean]

OPINION: When you're a feminist, you get used to misogynists trying to challenge the necessity of your politics. "Feminism's finished! Women are equal now and there's no use for all the hairy arm-pitted rubbish! Quit your yapping! Embrace your curves!"

But misogynist isn't a very fashionable kind of word - I mean, no one saunters into a room proudly pronouncing, 'My name's Don and I'm a misogynist!', unless it's the latest Charter Meeting of Online Trolls Monthly. So because people know it's not really kosher to be a codified turd, they try and hide their misogynist views under the guise of legitimate arguments.

If you're not trained in the spotting of smug, self-satisfied misogynists, you might not know the general thrust of their shtick. Luckily for you, I've become somewhat of an expert in the field since they all started following me on Twitter. So to help novices and outsiders, I've taken the following five popular misogynist arguments and parsed them into some kind of legible (if not logical) format for your benefit. 


1. If you want to see real oppression, go to the Middle East.


2. How can women expect us to respect them when they won't respect themselves?

3. Stop criticising domestic servitude! Some women are proud to look after their families.

4. It's a science thing

5. Men are oppressed too, therefore women aren't! Or something.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/love-sex/6837194/How-to-spot-a-misogynist

Each bullet has detailed explanations. Couldn't get it all to fit here and stay within the copyright. You can read more at the link.

[MadrasT]

1. Nice.

Number 5 is the one I hear most in real life.

This made me laugh:

So why don't you just go ahead and submit your complaint to the STFU file known as my PENIS?

because that is exactly what some of these men sound like they are saying, without ever actually saying it.

[redqueen]

2. These are 'debate' tactics that all feminists must be prepared to counter, *not kowtow to*...

let alone start to parrot such nonsense themselves out of some misguided sense of 'fairness'. Gosh, wouldn't the repigs love for us to start to treat their hairbrained, idiotic exuses for 'arguments' as if they had any validity whatsoever?

It also reminds me of Little Star's OP about misogynist language, from Shakesville, where we see this nugget of golden, shining truth:

http://www.shakesville.com/2007/11/on-bitch-and-other-misogynist-language.html

B. Not a Misogynist. How often does one have to use misogynistic language before one can be identified as a misogynist? Twenty times? A hundred? An infinite number of times, as long as he doesn't beat women? During the "cunt/whore" dust-up recounted here, Piny wrote a great post addressing this very question:

I wholeheartedly agree that there is a difference between someone who posts an ill-conceived blackface photoshop caricature and, say, Nathan Bedford Forrest. I will also happily concede that there is a difference between someone who openly identifies as feminist but casually uses misogynistic slurs and graphic misogynistic riffs to deride people–women in particular–and, say, John Knox.

This does not mean that it’s a good idea to restrict “a racist,” “a sexist,” and “a misogynist,” to the very worst of the worst. … It reduces complaints about all of these words to matters of personal affront, such that “sexist” and “cunt” are equated. “Sexist” becomes not a criticism of someone’s demonstrated beliefs, a term like “reactionary,” but an epithet as crude as the slurs to which it responds. It’s mean and unfair to call someone a sexist.

Emphasis mine.

[seabeyond]

3. .

[hlthe2b]

12. ^^^ This... absolutely

[Violet_Crumble]

4. The 'If you want to see real oppression, go to the Middle East' line...

I've seen that same line used a lot, not just when it comes to misogyny and discrimination against women, but when it comes to human rights in general. The last paragraph of that section said it all, imo:

'Besides, I don't hear anyone accusing working families of selfishness for complaining about their rising electricity bills just because some slum dwellers in India don't even HAVE working Playstations.'

Great article. Thanks for posting it...

[seabeyond]

14. my father in law thought he would be brilliant for us all and gave that to me.

he makes sexist comments specifically for me which is not a huge deal, but he would do it in front of boys. and the boys would easily recognize and then look at me. in conversation about something, he threw that out. it really surprises me that any educated grown up would see that as a matter of debate, lol. i told him, ya.... that would be a way to dismiss the issue. doesnt work that way. horrible there and wrong here. so?

[bullwinkle428]

25. Homophobes love to toss that one out there all the time, when anyone supportive

of LGBT rights brings up their struggle here in the U.S.

[boston bean]

51. Yep, all of it is so interrelated.

It's the same source.

And the same solution will apply.

It's really good to talk about this stuff.

[Baitball Blogger]

5. A misogynist is someone who...

...convinces a long-time acquaintance to go out to dinner with him "just for conversation"; insists she drinks a martini before she can have the glass of wine she really wants; berates the female waitress for taking the initiative to approach the table to ask for the order; and then, when his female companion said she preferred fish, he orders the steak special for two.

[boston bean]

7. Are you disagreeing with the OP?

I would say your description is of someone who is a cad.

And is sexist.

Is your opinion that only your description describes a misogynist? Is this your way of disagreeing with the OP?

[Baitball Blogger]

8. Boston Bean,

I make this promise to you. I will never again respond to one of your posts. How you can possibly reach such a defensive opinion is beyond me.

[boston bean]

9. it was a simple question, that is all.

it wasn't defensive. I wanted to learn more of your opinion.

The article was how to spot a misogynist.

Maybe you were adding to it, or maybe you didn't agree and were pontificating on what you thought a misogynist was.

It was a question. Don't read anything much more into it.

[Baitball Blogger]

11. For the most part I was respecting your opinion,

and just adding my perspective. I also believe that misogyny and sexism are closely related. However, it's all by degrees. Older men, from another generation, are a much bigger concern for women because they're the ones who are more inclined to protect the status quo that continues the inequities we're all dealing with today.

[boston bean]

13. I also agree, they are closely related.

We can have a conversation where we disagree some we don't exactly have to walk on egg shells.

I take it, I was right that you don't really agree with the article, but you were trying to be respectful.

I get it. I like respect. But we can't have a conversation unless each knows where the other is coming from.

[Baitball Blogger]

20. There really wasn't much to disagree with.

If I wanted to push it, I don't have an issue with women who chose housework for a career, however I understand why the use of the term "domestic servitude" would out the writer as a misogynist.

[boston bean]

37. Point # 3 was pointing out a misogynist POV

not a feminist POV.

Funny how all these things get twisted, isn't it. Go back and re-read. It might help some.

[Baitball Blogger]

47. For crying out loud! I got it! I understood your point!

Let me make it clear to you. I understood that all of the examples you posed were comments you came across on the internet that you identified as posters who were misogynists.

And you still don't think you're defensive? Really?

You asked for my opinion. For the most part I agreed with all your examples, except I wanted to be clear that I don't have issues with a woman who opts for housework. However, I certainly can see how the writer who calls it "domestic servitude," reveals his true origination.

You need to reflect on your own personal perspectives because they are creating blinders to communication.

[boston bean]

49. No, I don't see any defensiveness.

I do see anger and accusations coming from you though.

I'm use to it though, as are many women. We'll live and somehow survive.

[seabeyond]

16. i would have asked, too. i like to ask a question when i am not sure, rather

than assume.

thanks

[zeemike]

22. Normally I would not reply to this kind of post

But you expressed a desire for opinion and so I will risk it knowing full well I will be jumped on for it...and will probably make many enemies by saying it.
But we must stop this divisiveness...we don't need to be going around trying to spot misogynist any more that we need to go around spotting racist or communist or liberals...this only leads to tension and conflict and we have so much of that today it is tearing this country apart.
Now there is no need for me to defend myself by saying I am not a misogynist or a racist or communist...I am sure that I am all of those because I have used the word cunt and nigger and believe in some socialism...and we are all guilty of some of it...but you know them by what they do not what they say...and it is one thing to correct things you see as wrong but a whole different thing to label and put them in a box...just like the right wing does all the time....I am always called a communist by the right wingers...and I am most certainly not.

All I am saying is give peace a chance...love the people you think are your enemies and correct them with peaceful intent ..you will find that they respond much better than calling them some name.

[seabeyond]

26. we see a huge escalation of the hate both toward women and minority. how long do we allow to fester

in silence before allowed to speak out against it? you think silence is what works?

and no, "we are all guilty of some of it". i am not going to own this. i hear this consistently when someone is validaty their behavior and wanting to normalize. something i speak up against, lol.

"risk it knowing full well I will be jumped on for it...and will probably make many enemies by saying it. " now, this is funny. you do not want people to speak out anout what is actually said, but you speak out against something that has not been said, and want to give ownership to others, even though they have not said a word

really, fascinating. thank for the brain exercise.

[zeemike]

38. Yep that is it....I am trying to silence you by appealing to reason and love.

What was said is "how to spot a misogynist"....just like Ann Colter's how to spot a liberal...a list of things that if people say makes them one....it is the new Mccarthyism.....identify and punish in public....

I already regret my post...but don''t renounce what I said...give peace a chance for god's sake...try to see that finding common ground and peaceful correction is what works for us and pointing out our differences at every opportunity will get us what we have...a seriously divided nation.

[seabeyond]

39. discussion is a fun thing. as is respect. even when we disagree. i thought your comments

thought provoking. i also found the conclusions you came to, to be the opposite of the desired goal that you profess. so i shared my opinion on it and why i saw that it was counter to your goal.

you didnt actually address what i said. the points i made.

as far as finding the difference, i am probably the poster that most sees the similarity and NOT difference of who we are as genders and often speak out against the difference that so many hold dear.

i dont think this is about difference. it is about behavior.

[zeemike]

42. Well of course what I said is divisive

And that is the trap part of this....nothing anyone says that is not in complete agreement with the opinion of the post will be divisive...one can stake out a position on any side and if you disagree with it it is divisive....and Misogynist can say that they feel that women should be barefoot and pregnant and if you disagree with them you are being divisive.
I am sorry I should not be here...My appeal to peaceful restraint will not be well received.

[seabeyond]

45. that was not what i was pointing out on meeting the goal. i have no problem disagreeing on an issue

i see it as gaining understanding and do not see it as divisive.

what i am saying about not meeting your goal is arguing that we must be silent, will accomplish that peace. i do not agree with that. and the other points i made. i dont care about conversation in disagreement. i am calling out your conclusions as the opposite of your goal.

neither of my points were about us discussing this. i was addressing the conclusions that you came to.

[zeemike]

55. At no point did I suggest that you be silent...never did and never will.

And what my conclusions was in case you missed it was that spotting misogynist is no different that spotting liberals or communist or or racist or even witches for that matter The only real difference is in that feeling of righteousness that we feel.

As I said I should not be here...and if the forum name was on the front page I would not have posted to it because I know it would be futile and divisive to do so...but that is my fault for not paying more attention to where I post...and I am sorry for that.

[seabeyond]

63. grinnin.... it really isnt that big a deal.

fun chattin

you made me think. thinking is always a favorite of mine

[rhett o rick]

40. I absolutely know what you mean.

There is more to being a misogynist than the blatant examples in the OP. Not to be misunderstood, I totally agree with the OP, but what you are talking about is more subtitle and even accepted to some degree in society.

Some might tell you that the man you described was just being a gentleman. How can you not appreciate someone that makes decisions for you?

You described someone I know very well. He wont permit his wife driving at night or pumping her own gas, as a couple of examples. Isnt he thoughtful?

[seabeyond]

43. How can you not appreciate someone that makes decisions for you? easy

i make my own cause, well hell, i know me better, lol.

and i am a damn fine decision maker. it has always worked for me.

[rhett o rick]

50. Sadly there are still those in society that think

it is "manly" for the man to help with the tougher decisions women have to make, like how to wear their hair, or what to wear, etc.

Sadly the person I am talking about has a daughter and son. Guess what they are learning.

[seabeyond]

52. tougher decisions women have to make, like how to wear their hair,

funny you. i know this. i always find it sad in a way, but also recognize we are all designed differently and if there is a person that has that need, finds a mate that has the need to be that helper, more power to them. i just have never been that. and thankfully, found a man that has no desire to be my keeper. it works for us.

but, yes. there is an effect on the kids....

[rhett o rick]

66. His wife appears to appreciate it. nm

[seabeyond]

68. i see it. i am not going to judge on that. unless there is something hurtful...

everyones marriage is unique to them. though, if they were in my family, i would be sure to highlight independent thought and decision making and encourage in the children, both gender. i would let the boy know that women make their own decisions and that is to be respected and valued. and teach the girl, women make their own decisions and that is a good thing and still being feminine.

[rhett o rick]

76. Personally, I dont think she is happy. But this is her second husband

and I think she feels she has to make it work.

[seabeyond]

78. ya, and then there is the bother. i hear ya. and i am sorry for her

my reality, one life.

make sure it is good. going thru unhappy, is not good. she knew before she married. there are in your face signs.

that is too bad.

[seabeyond]

60. i was thinking about your post. and my son popped into my mind. not gender specific

maybe tends to the raised we are raised, i agree. but my youngest cannot make a decision for anything in the world. we use to get frustrated, now we just accept. from the time he was the youngest, to pick out a present for a bday party, would would shop for hours and go store to store. the first time hubby did it he was aghast the child would not make a decision. spent hours out. i told him when he finally got home, exhausted, the kid cannot do it. WE have to make that decision for him. it is who he is. hopefull, he will marry a woman that LIKES to make decisions.

but, thought a cute story.

[Baitball Blogger]

54. Well, I don't know many feminists who

would have appreciated that kind of bully behavior. And we're not talking about small gestures. We're talking about inviting someone out for dinner on a first get-together and then pushing hard liquor and ordering for them.

Of course, it also helps to understand that his kind of bossiness is a reflection of the person's overall personality.

[boston bean]

56. That has always been a huge turn off for me.

That's for sure.

It's repulsive, and believe me, I was always looking for the nearest exit.

There was some funny story that made the rounds on the internet a few years back, about, and the voice mails some guy left her.

I have no idea how to find it again. But it was very entertaining, in a cringeworthy way.

[seabeyond]

65. i had more men tell me they were attracted because i was independent and self sufficient

only to date me and work on control and change me. i would always giggle about that.

[Little Star]

62. You are right! Some still think that is thoughtful and..

sometimes it may be if the woman has night blindness or had a stroke like me and finds it hard to pump my own gas.

But I submit, most of the time it's not thoughtful its just control.

Good post.

[seabeyond]

67. oh, i wonder what a wait staff thinks when i am in a chinese restaurant not knowing what i want

and trusting my hubby to pick out yummy foods knowing what i like.

i almost always let him order unless i am wanting a bowl of curry soup. i dont remember what i really like, and he does. so i tell him, order whatever. lol. and we share.

[Little Star]

77. Wonder what the wait staff thought when...

I always ordered for my husband cause he never could remember what he liked best or if it was beef, how he liked it done, lol!!

I never willingly shared but he did help himself to my plate or glass. Wish I still had him to steal my food & drink though!

I loved him so much. He was the best man to ever enter into my life. It would have been our thirtieth anniversary yesterday, I'm sad.

So see, this feminist really does like men, so there!!! lol

[seabeyond]

80. see.... that, yes. we cannot always assume what we see with our eyes

isnt something it is not.

thank you for sharing that with me little star. over the last couple days, longer, i have been thinking an awful lot about you. i thought it time to touch base. but, i did not want to, if you were ok. i should have. it happens and there is a world of numbness, then the pain. then a period, a long period of feeling you are in a bubble. all of your world is effected by this and people walking by and around and are clueless to your pain. it is an odd feel, an odd place to be.

i am so sorry..... forever sorry. i hear you.

[Little Star]

83. Thanks Sea. Your a nice person....

[MadrasT]

81. I am sorry for your loss, Little Star

[Little Star]

101. Thank you MadrasT.

[rhett o rick]

74. I agree that there are plenty of occasions where someone (male or female) made need

or appreciate help, but the situation that is being presented in post #5 is all about power and control. At some point she is going to object to his control and he is going to be angry.

[Little Star]

79. Yes he will. And he probably won't understand why she objected either.

[rhett o rick]

86. Oh he will think he understands.

He will just think she is a __________ (there are a few choices he may pick from).

[Little Star]

98. lol. How true.

[Chorophyll]

6. K&R nt

[Mass]

10. An other one:

(that you see also in relation to racism and anti-homosexuality):

Look, there are women at the highest level. How can you say there is still inequality?

[boston bean]

15. That is another!

Thanks for pointing it out. And you can extrapolate further where they then imply it's men who are hurt by it.

Twisty pretzels some make. Untwisting them, is the hard part. Cause so much of it is so hard to verbalize. Many times it is just knowing and the vibes.

[JustAnotherGen]

18. n/t

[seabeyond]

24. and more young women are in college getting their degree, after all. lol. yes. nt

[DaveJ]

17. I know a misogynist

He said very clearly an directly that he does not like talking to women about technical matters. He has gone out of his way to request a different sales representative too, once after he got a female, before even speaking with her.

And, what is kinda frustrating to me, is, most women seem to love him, constantly giving him compliments, saying he's better to work with than the rest of us. Women overall like him much more than all the men do. How does that happen?

[boston bean]

19. I think this query falls under bullet point #2. nt

[DaveJ]

21. Whoops, I missed that

I'll say that I don't think it would be obvious on the surface that he discriminates. Thing is, men see other mens' true character when they aren't around women. And the fact that these closet-misogynists are often the most liked, might be what causes many of us to start losing our hair. I don't mean to disparage your point, though, so sorry if I'm sidetracking the topic.....

[boston bean]

23. No worries. As you can see

women are really put in a no win situation.

I think recognizing that, is important.

[DaveJ]

30. My rule of thumb on discrimination

Me, personally, I don't care if someone says something that's subtly politically incorrect, which often happens to me since I'm a nerd with poor speaking skills.

It's when people are actually denied opportunity. That's when actual actions are discriminatory. Job hiring is the best example. People other than women are discriminated against. Lots of things, a funny accent, being from another place, a mole in a strange place, anything, and most acts of discrimination are not covered by any law, or at least aren't provable.

I appreciate women who continue to point out misogynists, but just as a favor it would be really cool of they could also address discrimination against nerds like me.

[boston bean]

32. Read #5 for your last point.

The words are what we can point to. If people are using them, it's a safe bet they fit a particular category.

If they are using them to denigrate women, or groups of people.

[secondwind]

28. Maybe he feels threatened by a woman with the same level of knowledge he has......

[seabeyond]

31. i have found that to be a HUGE deal. and per the post you are responding to, i have found

to trust the men in my life when they shy away from any particular man. there is generally a reason that might not be so clear to me.

[DaveJ]

33. They have more knowledge, I'm pretty sure

True, he does not like anyone showing that they have more knowledge than he does.

I'm not sure exactly what makes women different than men in this situation. I think men can be more docile in conversation overall, which he likes. It enables him to look like the most important person in the room, which is very important to him.

[seabeyond]

36. women are taught fromt he cradle to be differential, appease, be nice. not all women hold onto this

thru self reflection, they shrug off the conditioning. a lot of women cloak themselves in it.

[chervilant]

34. On that note:

I have found that when I post a particularly erudite or assertive screed, I am assumed to be male. That is one of the most offensive forms of misogyny extant. Sadly, many sufferers have NO CLUE.

[secondwind]

27. Everyone can agree that mysogynists are cads... no need to debate

And they are a lot more than that, as well......

[chervilant]

29. Well, now,

I saw some of your posts to another thread wherein I got into a flammage situation with a few of DU's misogynists. One guy posted a derisive response to the OP and was offended when I noted that his intellect seems rather shallow. The resulting flammage got me thinking.

When an adult male gets his briefs in a bunch over an OP about misogyny, my first impression is that said male holds opinions that carry a whiff of misogyny (those 'degrees' of sexism are important to some sufferers...), or that he has been accused of misogyny (or sexism) in the past. I wonder: if you are an adult, can you not seek enlightenment about this (or any other) issue, and incorporate some fundamental changes in your behavior that reflect your new-found enlightenment?

In short, I have very little patience with guys who refute misogyny, or insist that there are no misogynists on DU ( ). I have added three names to my ignore list because of the flammage experience I mentioned hereinabove, but I would rather come up with a way to help such unfortunates understand that sexism and misogyny (and all other patriarchal power imbalances) are damaging to us all.

[seabeyond]

35. it is when the respect goes both ways that their is true communication and growth

i know i have learned so much, how i, myself, fed the patriarchy. and i have owned it and made shifts, for the better. but then, that is with all life, not just directed toward one issue. the men in my life tend to listen. my husband and i have grown over the years to be overall, better people. and it has been a grand plus for the boys. so much, they are beyond us in areas we had to learn. there are of course lessons in what we had in earlier years, that the boys will never see the light of day.

but, an openness back and forth in gender issues, recognizing and acknowledging both, takes us so far.

[chervilant]

48. Indeed, the respect must go both ways...

You had multiple responses in the OP I mentioned. I realize that I could have resisted posting sarcasm in response to h*****y's derisive and misogynistic comment. However, having seen sexism in some of his previous posts, I responded while frustrated and angry.

That being said, I have seldom encountered a sexist or misogynistic male who is able to get outside his patriarchal mindset. I've done advocacy for survivors of relationship violence for better than 30 years, and I've developed a presentation that avoids gender-specific terminology for the very purpose of encouraging all young people to see how damaging to our entire species is patriarchy (and, every other form of power imbalance). I find it disheartening that so many young men respond defensively or dismissively to the topic of relationship violence.

Contemporary research substantiates that relationship violence is an ubiquitous problem. Four of five young women respondents (under 18) agree that their boyfriends have the right to slap them 'if they do something wrong.' We still have a VERY long way to go to achieve gender equity.

[Little Star]

102. +1

[RitchieRich]

41. sticks and stones

hairy arm-pitted rubbish! Quit your yapping!
'My name's Don and I'm a misogynist
Meeting of Online Trolls
codified turd
smug, self-satisfied misogynists

I agree completely. It sucks when someone is openly hostile, employing divisive, inflammatory language while implying that anyone who disagrees with them is full of hatred when perhaps its only a few and not all.

[redqueen]

44. That isn't what the OP is saying.

The subject is the use of diversionary or dismissive tactics to derail conversations.

Which is what you just attempted to do by shifting the subject to a demand on women to constantly reassure men that not all men are misogynists, whenever we dare to confront these issues.

If its not about you there's no need to be defensive. This is about misogynists.

[boston bean]

46. people adore simplicity.

The words are manifestation of the underlying thought process and opinion.

Really, what is so hard to get about that.

It's not hard really. It's a tactic to spin the issue back on the victim, saying free speech yada yada yada.

Keep on keeping on is my advice!

Good to see you around.

[MadrasT]

53. This is the crux of it right here

If its not about you there's no need to be defensive.

Speaking of the universal "you" here (not any one individual here):

If it doesn't apply to you, feminists aren't talking about you. And if you feel the need to be defensive, well then maybe you need to stop talking and listen and think about what it is you're so defensive about.

[boston bean]

57. feminists are expected to carve out a niche

for all those very defensive men who think because they are not like that, feminists are insulting them.

It's always, always a tell for me.

Especially the more someone demands it.

[MadrasT]

58. They are the same ones who say

"I am not going to listen to you unless you are respectful."

[boston bean]

59. or call you defensive.

it's a barrel of laughs, yes it is.

[RitchieRich]

85. its hard not to feel targeted...

first, I've seen a lot of blatant sexist remarks come from men on DU- frequently to describe how they are in fact not sexist. Its hard to comment, especially to disagree with a thread such as this without wondering if you are joining said group. In fact, after my post I did some thinking and asked my girlfriend:

"..
honey, do you think i'm a misogynist
...
Ali: if I truly believed you were I don't believe I would be with you
that said, I do think you can have a tendency to see things in a certain light
...
Ali: and see people as a whole and type rather than as individuals
..."
so, crap. Maybe. In any case, I strive every day to improve the way I relate to others, and allow my belief system to evolve.
Over the years I've somewhat jokingly referred to myself as more of a feminist than most women- in regard mostly to the advertising and surgery industry. That makes me... a friend more than an enemy at least.
I came to DU after giving up on NPR. One thing I try to do with every post is to diffuse hateful words and promote civil conversations. Perhaps this is woefully less important than other issues, but without unity we are all screwed.

I ask the guys reading this thread to pause and consider how very ugly things can get for women before responding.
I ask the girls to consider the effect of alienating moderate Dems, etc.

[seabeyond]

87. i love this post ritchierich.

just love it. agree, or not and much i agree with, ..... i love it

for the simple fact

you thought about it and even went beyond, discussing it with your woman.

[RitchieRich]

89. thanks

...don't exactly feel like a hero though.
sometimes its like a tug-of-war going on in my head.
certain key words get the inner 7 year old ready for a fight, while the grown up pulls on the reins and and reminds.

[seabeyond]

90. not about hero.... lol

just a more balanced and healthy person. all of life, with every part of life, it is about reflecting and going from there. the more we put in the time, the easier it gets.

one of my favorite stories (i make up as i go)

first a little whisper or nudge from universe, then a tap on the shoulder, then a shout until finely a brick up side the head.

i prefer the whisper, lol.

but, it is fun

we will be given the same lessons over and over until we get it to move on to the next lesson. we can do or not. our choice.

[boston bean]

91. Ritchie we all live it and breathe it every day

It's hard to escape.

You are someone looking to reflect and understand and might not always hit the right mark, but you aren't out there demanding women see it your way. When their experience tells them how they feel.... know what I mean.

There is another post in this group, by Madras T, about learning about feminism.

Read that, it might help some, because I do think you are trying to work it they way that other article explains.

It might help you to identify and learn how to express yourself, when you find the words are missing.

Which is often the case with me, because so much of it is an experience that is hard to nail down. So posts like this one, help me to verbalize the issues, even if they don't fit every single experience exactly.

[RitchieRich]

94. ...

I saw my sister, looking at me with one eyebrow up, and decided i needed to clarify myself. -or, at least try. Thanks for pointing me in the direction of that link, I will absolutely read up. um... didn't particularly realize how DU was organized

[boston bean]

96. Glad to have you commenting here ritchie.

I'll see you around.

And thanks for being open with your thoughts and open to learning more. That's about the best outcome any can expect.

[Little Star]

103. Yep!

[ieoeja]

61. I often get accused of misogny for treating women the same as I do men.

My friends and I like to bust each others chops. A lot of women on the receiving end of that believe it is because I don't respect women. In truth, it is because I respect them enough to treat them exactly like I treat my male friends.

Fortunately, there are also a lot of women who feel the same way I do. Nobody can be friends with everybody (and I really get tired of employers who think it is necessary not just for coworkers to get along, but for us to be friends as well).

--------------------
This brings up a question. Some Southern Belle or {fill-in-the-blank} Princess who demands to be put up on a pedestal is clearly anti-feminist. But where does one draw the line on that? We all want to be treated special by a lover. Treatment related to biology - "put down the seat" - is understandable. What about the woman who thinks it is okay for me to jokingly insult a male friend, but not a female friend? Isn't that a little misogynist on her part? Isn't she implying that women can't handle the give-and-take that men can?

Note: this is different from a woman simply taking it personal for herself. That woman would presumably not consider it okay for me to do the same with my male friends either. No hypocrisy, no misogny.

[MadrasT]

69. This is a puzzler:

What about the woman who thinks it is okay for me to jokingly insult a male friend, but not a female friend? Isn't that a little misogynist on her part? Isn't she implying that women can't handle the give-and-take that men can?

I think women can absolutely be misogynists too.

In real life, I wouldn't judge the situations you mention without knowing specifics... but in general, if the joking insults you are describing aren't sexist insults, I certainly don't want deferential treatment due to gender.

Your comments bring up another whole thing I have been pondering lately, which is, is there any place for chivalry and feminism to coexist?

For example, my boyfriend likes do things like walk on the traffic side of the sidewalk because "that's what a man does". Puts himself between traffic and his female companion.

On one hand, it's kind of sweet.

On the other hand, some part of me finds it offensive and I would generally prefer that he doesn't do stuff like that.

But if I object, he seems to feel emasculated.

I'd rather be treated as an equal than as a precious object in need of protection.

It's hard to navigate this stuff in real life, for sure.

[boston bean]

71. It depends on if the words are coming from a place of privilege.

or talking about women as sex objects.

Many women find that offensive.

[MadrasT]

72. Right. Exactly. n/t

[seabeyond]

73. i have to wonder what the comments are that he finds banter, yet the women finds misogynist

but, i am not going to get into it.

the point of your post and what i read in another post of wanting you to wear a dress.

your man seems to be heavily immersed in the conditioned roles of gender defining masculinity and femininity, man/woman, which is an odd place for you to sit seeing who you are.

we have had this conversation on the simple act of holding the door open. my sons dating and teaching them the rules, yet... by doing this, are we reinforcing the mentality? and if expected and dont do it, are we sitting the boys up to be perceived as ill mannered?

it is a quandary.

i always paid my way. i am bothered that still today after so many years, that role is still there. i encourage my boys to shrug that one off. though they play that by ear. a tough one. the kids need to figure this out i guess.

i also had a man put hand on back and guide me. that one has always bothered me and i shrug it off.

but interesting questions.

[MadrasT]

75. Hmmmmm

your man seems to be heavily immersed in the conditioned roles of gender defining masculinity and femininity, man/woman, which is an odd place for you to sit seeing who you are.

It is very odd. It took him 6 months to decide if he could even have a relationship with someone who biologically is, and looks like, a woman but identifies as "nongendered"... because somehow he is really attached to needing a woman to express and embody "the feminine" sometimes.

We talk about gender, gender identity, and gender roles all the time.

If the relationship doesn't work out, he sure has learned a lot about gender anyway, LOL.

I really like him and he is a solid progressive with a good heart. So we just keep talking about it.

My last boyfriend also identified as "nongendered" so we were like peas in a pod. Gender and gender roles never came up. That was nice in one way, but almost too comfortable because my ideas about gender were never challenged and I never had to think about it at all.

Not sure which is better. It is what it is, I guess.

[seabeyond]

82. you are so funny, and so great. i have enjoyed you and your experiences

your expression, immensely. love it.

so, does he use the role of feminity to define his masculinity. ergo, the more woman, the more man he is.

lol

[MadrasT]

84. Ha

so, does he use the role of feminity to define his masculinity. ergo, the more woman, the more man he is.

I don't know, but he is coming to visit this weekend and I am going to ask him. Ha. (Long distance relationship. We see each other about one weekend a month right now. That might change... if I can get him to stop asking me to wear a dress.)

Thanks, sea

[seabeyond]

88. lol loll lol. gonna think about

"asking me to wear a dress."

some more.

the thing that is great about hubby and i, there are thing (only a few) that are important to us. and they are not important to the other. so we willingly accomodate adn that is

OK

[MerryBlooms]

99. No I'm sorry, but you most likely are accused OFTEN of being a misogynist

because you are one.

It's not always everyone else, sometimes it really is you.



Please participate in DU's various female groups- you and all humanity you interact with will be better for it.

[chervilant]

64. Being male

anywhere on this planet is a huge advantage.

The power imbalance inherent in the social construct we've labeled 'patriarchy' is damaging to our entire species. How can we expect a 'dominant' gender to respect a 'submissive' gender, when 'power over' is glorified? We women are considered less than because we have a 'v' instead of a 'p'! How absurd!

Some great resources for any who wish to change this oppressive socio-cultural reality:

The Mermaid and the Minotaur: Sexual Arrangements and Human Malaise by Dorothy Dinnerstein.

Beyond Power: On Women, Men and Morals by Marilyn French.

The War Against Women by Marilyn French.

(BTW, I know I've posted this before. However, I've noticed that some of the misogynists on DU have been working hard to deny their sexism...)

[seabeyond]

70. 'dominant' gender to respect a 'submissive' gender, when 'power over' is glorified?

this is what i teach, preach, lecture, repeat. lol lol. it behooves neither gender.

[boston bean]

92. I've heard about "The War Against Women"

by Margaret French.

I wonder if it's on kindle.

I might pick it up. Can you give me a brief synopsis?

As to your last sentence... you are kidding me right? LOL

[seabeyond]

93. i love my kindle.... you too. uh oh. now i get to give you the titles of the books i loved on my

kindle. but, you work, lol, . you might not have as much read time. and the forum. and life, lol. and it depends what kinds of books you like.

[chervilant]

95. As I'm sure you're aware,

feminism has been marginalized by the patriarchs whose sphincters tighten reflexively when anyone points out their misogyny. Sad that these poor unfortunates cannot see how damaging to us all is patriarchy...

That said, War Against Women is not my preferred Marilyn French book, since she tends to be so 'in your face' to men (many of whom are blithely unaware of their own psychic wounds inflicted by the arbitrary and delimiting socio-cultural construct called patriarchy). However, French offers a well-documented history of the damages to women that are directly attributable to patriarchy. I recommend it, because so many of our young women are being treated like mushrooms: kept in the dark and fed pure bullshit.

I think we're witnessing a resurgence of the social movements that developed in response to various oppressions: racism, sexism, and all the other 'isms' that impose hierarchy on human interactions. I remain hopeful that the global #Occupy movement will bear long-term fruit.

[boston bean]

97. Thank you..

Sounds like a very interesting read. I'm certainly not averse to any "in your face" writings, when it comes to writings about the patriarchy.

I love hard hitting articles that get the point across. I also like ones that are funny, and let's not leave out irony...

[hifiguy]

100. Points 2-4 are absolute bullshit on stilts.

I cannot imagine any intelligent and thoughtful liberal/humanist male making them with a straight face and expecting to be taken seriously by any thinking person, male or female.

#1 has a very limited legitimacy. It is relevant, but only perpherally at most. A much better question is why a country like the US does not have gender-equity policies, such as paid parenthood leave to name just one, when Northern European countries have them. That Saudi Arabia is worse doesn't excuse the genuinely anti-woman policies favored by the right wing in this country. Ever.

#5 fudges the question entirely. Men and women both face artificially constructed social expectations, 99% of which are pure BS. The challenges are different, but both exist, and to the detriment of both genders, gay, straight, and LGBT.