History of Feminism
Related: About this forumOn being a woman in public
Today in another thread, a few women shared the relief they felt after they discovered that they became 'invisible' as they aged. (Please note that I am not referring in this post to the way that society in general ignores older women, that's a subject for another discussion). The context of this discussion was about the specific type of attention that your appearance, as an adolescent girl or a woman, attracts from men and boys. This harassment is always insulting. Whether the person doing the harassing intends it to be so, or even whether a subset of women considers such attention tolerable is beside the point. Outside of a very limited set of circumstances, there's really no reason to treat women as if our appearance is public property.
Almost everywhere we look, we are bombarded with the message: for girls and women, looks matter most. From the time we're born, it's the most frequent compliment girls receive. Intended to bolster self-esteem, it's actually just setting the foundation for the skewed sense of importance placed on our appearance. I'm sure I don't need to give examples. You most likely have a few in mind already. Concern with body-image starts for girls in preschool. Before we even enter adolescence, we've already learned that girls must be thin. Younger and younger girls worry about their weight and diet, and while a good diet is good for everyone, restricting calories at a young age out of anxiety over our appearance and in the absence of any actual threat to good health is simply unhealthy in every way.
Sexual harassment usually starts in elementary school. Over the next few years we almost all experience such treatment to some degree or another, from strangers, peers, teachers, and later co-workers. Most of us will alter our behavior or the way we dress to some extent or another, in order to avoid certain comments or other forms of attention.
This attention can be mild (smile!) or extremely aggressive (see link below), but the reason men treat women this way is because they're seeing the same messages girls are, but from the other perspective. Instead of getting the message that they are meant to be appraised, judged, and scored based on their looks -- the message for boys is that they are meant to treat women in this way. It's the subject of 'jokes' that most everyone laughs at. It's fodder for countless music videos and tv-shows. Until the past few decades, it was hardly questioned at all. It is a form of oppression, but extremely few recognize it as such.
At least in some situations, it has become legally actionable. At work, for instance. Thanks to the pioneering work done by Catharine MacKinnon, women have legal recourse for being sexually harassed at work. On the street of course, it's a different story. Campaigns to raise awareness of the oppressive nature of this behavior have started to become more popular, so things seem to be just starting to change on that front. The backlash, however, is impressive.
It was good to see women speaking of how much more relaxed they were feeling, as a result of this new invisibility... as a result of no longer being subjected to that particular form of appraisal, judgment, etc. It was painful to think about the opposite end of that experience. The first few times, as a girl, that you notice the weight of that attention. The first time it's overt, and aggressive, and obviously sexual in nature. The way those experiences change you. The way you stop thinking it's shocking and horrifying and depressing, and start accepting this, one of the many facets of 'normal life' in the patriarchy.
And now for the examples I mentioned above. This was posted, coincidentally, just a few hours before I saw the heartwarming comments from women commenting on their newfound relaxed attitude with respect to their appearance. It was shared in a discussion which took place after a woman posted about her 14-year-old daughter's first experience with street harassment.
Trigger warning, graphic language warning: http://rookiemag.com/2012/05/it-happens-all-the-time/
And again, I will restate this emphatically so as to avoid at least some of the whataboutery: Yes, there are exceptions, of course, as in most everything else. Some women may enjoy it, and some situations may involve prior consent for whatever reason, etc. But we are not discussing the tiny minority of possible examples in which it could be considered as acceptable to treat women and girls as if the mere fact that they're outdoors in public being a woman or a girl somehow makes them fair game for such treatment. However many women you can find who don't mind, they don't provide any boy or man with a 'get out of harassment free' card. If you don't *unquestionably* know with a very comfortable degree of certainty that in your particular, isolated case, it is welcomed by the woman you're showering with such forms of attention: stop doing it.
BlueIris
(29,135 posts)Get a life, misogyny rationalizers.
eridani
(51,907 posts)--"post-menopausal zest." Wasn't there a website where women could upload pictures of harassing creeps taken with their cell phones?
boston bean
(36,221 posts)Just finished high school... It was the summer. We were riding down 495 to go to the Cape.
This car came speeding up beside us. There was a lone man driving.
He had his pelvis up in the air so you could see him through the window. He was masturbating. Kept looking over to see our expressions.
We would speed up, so would he. We would slow down, so would he. He stayed right beside us until he finally finished it off and sped away.
How he managed that position and still drive, was quite a feat, I guess....
It was creepy and gross and disgusting. The moment has never left me.
I have also had some leers from men on the beach that made me so unconfortable that I left.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)the freeway. it is a dangerous game. it is very frustrating. speed up/slow down/pass/let be passed. once i got pulled over by the police for going very fast. told him, had a car messing with me on the road and just wanted to get away from him. i didnt get a ticket.
but this has happened so often over a lifetime. really scary when truckers play the game.
but, a woman on the road alone and some man playing this adolscent game for some chuckles pisses me off so.
MadrasT
(7,237 posts)I remember walking down a country highway from my house to the general store, and groups of guys honking their horn and whistling and yelling things out the window. Not an isolated incident... this was a thing that happened every time my girlfriend and I took that walk, which was a couple times a week.
I hated puberty because it made me change from an innocent little girl who was a human being into a sex object to be leered at.
I don't think men will ever understand how horrible this can feel to a woman. Some men may symathize but if you haven't had the experience, you can't truly *know*.
Afterthought: the phenomenon redqueen talks about it exactly what happened to me. I got over the shock, fear, and revulsion and spent the next 10 or so years worrying about if I was acceptably "hot". Until I said "Fuck this noise, I am not playing this dumbass game anymore." After that, I would only beautify myself for a specific partner *after* I was in a relationship. But not to "catch" one.
Scout
(8,624 posts)what's the matter with you, bitch?"
like i should care what some asshole thinks about my looks. i don't want your compliments, i don't need them, i could not care less if you want to fuck me, if you like my breasts, if you like my smile, if you like my clothes....
yes, i have actually been compared to meat "Look at those hams" said from behind me by one man to his two companions. fucking old creepy men.
such arrogance! that any woman should care what a man thinks of her.
MadrasT
(7,237 posts)messaging that translates to "I want to fuck you" is a compliment.
'Cause that's what we're here for, dontcha know.
for those totally sarcasm deficient, I feel I must include this tag:
never know what someone might alert on, and how a jury might rule.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)even when no men bother you, the media's constant objectification increases this intense focus on women's appearance... convincing so many adolescent girls that those images are something to try to imitate. Eating disorders, self-esteem issues, and so many other problems are made worse by the sick obsession with women's looks and the insistence by so many that it really isn't a problem at all.
But then I suppose it isn't, for some. For men, or for the privileged women who blame those suffering from eating disorders, or any other consequences of the fanatical focus on looks, for not successfully blocking out these messages. Such people seem not to understand the subconscious, apparently. Sorry, ranting.
Scout
(8,624 posts)Hatchling
(2,323 posts)I was an attractive, fit 30 yr old walking home after dark, just a block from my house when 3 very large men started following me commenting on my attire, shouting that they were Marines and deserved a little fun from me for their service to my country. I freaked and ran, they were either too startled to chase me or I just ran faster than them. I don't know, I didn't look back.
Now how is this supposed to flatter me? Or make me feel safe around men? Yeah, not a lot of men do this kind of thing, but enough do it that I am forced to profile anyone as male as a possible threat.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)you are right. the intent is exactly the opposite. so when men tell us it is not a big deal. or to lighten up. or just biological for a man. or whatever
we know better.
we know their intent is to insult and use fear. then chuckle and cackle.
boston bean
(36,221 posts)getting his rocks off me psychologically and possibly physically, when I am not consenting and he is making it obvious that is what he is doing and what is happening to me...
It's disgusting behavior.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)that is why it is not a compliment and that is what makes it offensive. what it is about, is the man TAKING ownership of the womans sexuality, because it is not her own. as i get older, i should see less. i am not. i see more. and that is why i connect the pornification of society with the increase in this. men are being so conditioned to look at women as a means to jack off, it is magnifying in real life.
there was a study that had men look at porn and in a work environment, then address women. consistently the men that looked at the porn, invaded the womans space. the men that did not, allowed the appropriate space.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)but equally insulting and oppressive things.
I'm sure most of us are all too familiar with that creepy feeling that comes from men who don't care whether or not their behavior is appropriate.
This was made absolutely crystal clear last year when Rebecca Watson was slammed mercilessly for daring to suggest that men not proposition women who are practically total strangers alone in elevators in the small hours of the morning.
If I had a dollar for every time a man assumed that I would for whatever reason welcome his comments on my appearance, his ideas about what I should allow him to do for me, or even just that creepy, lingering smile and googly-eyed look they give you (shudder) ... I could buy a used car.
Seriously though, perhaps it's these direct and unflinching accounts of male behavior that get me labeled a 'man-hater'... it's a pity that more people aren't aware that the real problem is that most women bend over backwards to be nice, especially here. Most to so far out of their way to be fair that we end up with the same situation we have in the media, where journalists feel somehow obligated to present both sides of a debate as if they're equally valid.
And the result is the same, too. Except in this context the consequence isn't a bunch of morons thinking climate change or evolution is all a big lie... in this context the consequence is the denial of the effects of objectification, prostitution, pornography, etc.
Sorry, ranting again.
One more thing though: It's important to remember that many men DO know this behavior is inappropriate and oppressive. Many men see it for exactly what it is. Those men are certainly not affected by these kinds of critiques, nor would they confuse such comments with 'misandry'... in order to do that you'd have to think such horrid, entitled behavior was somehow an inherent part of being a man.
Response to redqueen (Reply #13)
boston bean This message was self-deleted by its author.
CrispyQ
(36,457 posts)"...there's really no reason to treat women as if our appearance is public property."