I used to think people in this group exaggerated the level of misogyny on this site...

[Bjorn Against]

After what I have seen the last couple of weeks however I realize that you were all right, there really is an extreme level of disrespect towards women coming from a few people on this site and it sickens me that they are being allowed to get by with it.

I tried to stand up for you and was told I have "personal issues" because I viewed the swimsuit issue cover as a sexual image. I even made it clear that I do not have a problem with people viewing sexual images on their own time, but I do have a problem with pushing these images on people who do not want to see them. If I were to send such an image to a female co-worker I would be fired for sexual harrassment and rightfully so, if it is considered sexual harrassment outside of DU then I don't see why it should not be considered sexual harrassment here.

I used to think that some of the members of this group took things way too far, but now I understand that I was wrong. There really are blatant misogynists on this site who seem to take pleasure in pushing you around, sometimes they may push you over the line and you may react in a way I might find abrasive but I am sure I would act just as abrasive if they treated me the same way they treat you.

At first I thought the problem was coming from both sides, but now I realize that one side has been far worse than the other and we can not pretend that both sides are just as bad because they are clearly not. I should have seen it earlier because I do understand the history of patriarchy and the mistreatment of women in our nation's history, but I wanted to believe that DU was better than that. It turns out there are some on this site that truly are misogynist pigs however, and it is about time that the handful of people who are really pushing this crap are banned.

I am a man and as a man I may not always have a true understanding of the problems women in our society face, but I do make an effort to try to understand and to treat women with respect. We may not always agree on everything, but please know that you have my back on this. I am sick of watching the women on this site be disrespected, it is time to do something about the misogynists here.

I apologize for not recognizing this earlier, I should have listened better when you tried to bring it to my attention in the past. You were right then and you are right now, women are being horribly mistreated and it is time to shut down the Men's Group and make it clear the behavior we have seen from that group and their allies will no longer be tolerated. I may be a man myself, but the Men's Group is not inclusive of men like me or many of the other men on this site who believe women should be respected. If people can't handle treating women with respect then they do not belong on this site. Period.

[pipoman]

1. There is a fair amount of misandry too..

[Bjorn Against]

5. If misandry was a serious problem I think that as a man I would have felt it

I somehow managed to live my entire life without feeling that I was discriminated against for being a man however, that is not to say that nobody else has but if you look at history misogyny has had far more destructive effects than misandry has ever had.

[Democracyinkind]

6. +1. nt

[pipoman]

7. Quite a few women don't share the

view that SI is misogynistic nor are those who look at it. Misogyny and misandry are subjective.

[Bjorn Against]

10. I don't think people who look at the swimsuit issue are necessarilly misogynistic...

I do think the people who push the Swimsuit Issue in women's faces when they have made it clear they don't want to see it are misogynists however. I could care less what people look at in the privacy of their own homes, but show some respect and don't rub it in women's faces.

[Squinch]

12. And quite a few do. And have been very vocal about the fact that they do. And when I say

quite a few, I mean HUNDREDS.

In any venue where men and women treat each other respectfully, that would be enough. Here, it is not. Here, the objections of HUNDREDS of women AND men made a certain few double down and post more.

Discussions of misandry and misogyny aside, that's just infantile.

[SunSeeker]

189. Exactly. nt

[chervilant]

15. Please read about Edward Bernays,

AND watch "The Century of the Self" (free online). Be aware that your assertion that misogyny is "subjective" is disingenuous. As an advocate for survivors of relationship violence, I see firsthand the damage caused by sexism and misogyny -- to BOTH genders.

[arcane1]

151. Interesting. I have "The Century of the Self" but haven't watched it yet.

I thought it was about PR and consumerism, etc. Does it deal with sexism/misogyny as well?

[chervilant]

180. Please,

tell me what you think after you watch -- I highly recommend the series.

[1StrongBlackMan]

35. And there are "quite a few" ...

Black folks that thought jim crow wasn't that bad.

[merrily]

209. There are?

I don't recall meeting any, but, then, there are many Americans I haven't met.

[1StrongBlackMan]

211. Clarence Thomas ...

would be a high profile representative of that class ... Uncle Tom would be a mythical representative ... and if you know anyone that has ever uttered the phrase (or acted the part) "Everyone knows the white man's ice is colder", they are representatives.

[merrily]

246. I get your point about Thomas and, if I am honest,

I have an even more visceral reaction to him than I should. However, I don't know if he thought Jim Crow was a great idea.

[1StrongBlackMan]

247. Maybe, I exaggerated in ...

saying he thought it was a great idea ... but, he certainly didn't think it a race problem.

http://www.politicususa.com/2014/02/11/clarence-thomas-race-issue-jim-crow-georgia.html

[merrily]

248. I think this line from your link hits the nail on the head:

Certainly Clarence Thomas has polished his conservative talking points.

I very much doubt even he believes the bullshit he is spewing, but he knows which side his butter beans are buttered on.

ETA: You did not use the words "great idea." Those were my words. You said something like, "not that bad."

[hlthe2b]

39. ..and Allen West does not believe African Americans have been discriminated against...

There are many reasons for members of a group to gloss over serious problems--the most common is that they themselves have not been impacted and have not become conscious to those who are. They are thus fortunate.

As a case in point, only recently-- with the RW's overt war on women with attempts to control every part of their reproductive life-- have many young women begun to wake up to the battles their feminist elders fought. That they were formerly oblivious to the issues, hardly means the problems weren't there, were not "real".

[BainsBane]

110. I counted five

Five recs from women who didn't object to the SI thread. Compare that to 177 people saying they those threads created a hostile environment, more than 80 for another thread telling me to step up to the plate, and the dozens of recs for this one. The numbers are not even close. People who seek to justify oppression always find collaborators. That is nothing new.

[PassingFair]

141. But, but, it was posted by a WOMAN! So the menz are not even involved!!1

[pnwmom]

142. The real issue is whether a T & A photo belongs on a progressive political site

where women and men are supposed to be able to interact as equals -- even if they can't always in the larger society.

Not whether the people who view those photos in an appropriate venue are misogynists.

[boston bean]

144. They've had at least three thread of HOT Celebs threads

in the mens group.

Where you are warned with this about posting in the threads:

Please keep this discussion to actual hot celebrities, and not derail into discussions on the concept of "hot celebrities" itself.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1114&pid=10188

[pnwmom]

145. LOL. Yeah, it would be terrible if they got derailed into actually thinking. n/t

[VanillaRhapsody]

202. OMG.....I didn't even know those existed...Holy shit....it's even worse than I thought....

I didn't think it could sink that low......this is a "Liberal" Political site? Coulda fooled me....

3 of them devoted to objectifying women and the are INSISTING they be allowed to carry on that way in GD???

And this huge denial that that is sexist? Bullshit! It's total attempt at intimidation....

I think I recognize these tactics but I never thought I would see them perpetrated by those who claim to be D's....

[VanillaRhapsody]

154. spoken like someone who has never really felt either....

I find that misogyny is NOT "subjective" that women make $0.77 on the dollar....

[1StrongBlackMan]

26. +1 eom

[roguevalley]

124. thank you, bjorn against. I don't like anger directed at men either. What really

sealed this idea for me about the sexist crap against women was the men outing themselves as rapists and not being banned. The mods didn't ban them. I am still aghast about it. However, there are men here and women that are good at heart. You are one of them.

My dad was my hero. He loved and admired my mother, supported her and me in every endeavor and spoke of pride and happiness with us and what we did. A man (or woman) that has to stand on someone else's neck is much of a man (or woman).

Hugs, RV

[VanillaRhapsody]

153. they think just saying "White Male Privilege" is "misandry"

[Sheldon Cooper]

13. LOL

[niyad]

21. and right on cue. . . .

[paleotn]

24. No, that's just your privilege slipping away.

....And rightly so. I'm sorry, but loss of privilege does not equal misandry.

[pipoman]

32. 'Bad for others = good for me' is flawed logic

[boston bean]

85. This line of argument is creeping into MRA ideology.

That will not be tolerated here.

Women having equal rights to men in every single fucking facet of life, is not taking a damned thing away from men.

[proudretiredvet]

99. OK Boston I could not agree with your more.

But equal means equal.
When someone goes on the attack and singles out men, I am a man, so they are talking about me to.
When I simply say, "that is not me" they go into rants about "men" again, so that also includes me.
Men have been pushed into a corner where it is not considered PC to step up and say, "calm down with me, I didn't do it."
And I didn't.
The result of this is those who are actually that way will argue with you.
Those who are not that way will tend to ignore you.

I fully believe inequality but not one step either way from actual numerical quantifiable equality. There has to be one single standard and making up new rules for each person who perceives that they have been a victim of discrimination can't be done.

It is not a perfect world but discriminating against any group in support of another is not equality.

People have to draw their own line in the sand and say this is me and I treat all people as equals. This is me and I judge all people by one set of standards.

[boston bean]

108. Instead of taking it personally that a feminist means

you in particular, maybe you ought to state what you agree with them about.

And stop focusing on you said the word MEN therefore meaning, I am insulted and can't support you.

That would be really helpful.

[passiveporcupine]

175. that's exactly what I was thinking

too many people carelessly use general terms when speaking about specific groups, and those who are looking for persecution usually jump on those general terms and take it as "aimed" at them specifically.

We could all learn to loosen up a little. I think we all have a tendency to do this with our hot button issues. I know I do, but most of the time it was not aimed at you specifically.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

236. but, if you direct your comment to an individual then that person alerts and

calls it a personal insult and the post is hidden.

[passiveporcupine]

244. If it is meant as a personal insult

Perhaps it never should have been made? Besides, that has nothing to do with my post, or the post my reply was directed to. Sort of the opposite, in fact.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

245. if the truth is insulting then perhaps that poster needs step back and review their own post

their own actions which led to someone being able to insult them by telling them the truth about them self.

Otherwise there would have been no need for the person to feel insulted.

It is not my fault that the truth hurts.

and then they play the victim card because owie the truth hurt me.

some people need to grow up around here.

I am trying to explain to you why people feel the need to post vaguely about "some people"

[Squinch]

226. This same argument came up in a thread about white privilege. I am white. Strangely enough,

I am able to hear someone say that African Americans are discriminated against, and by white people, without thinking that the person making the statement is insulting me.

Because you know what? First of all, the statement is true. Second, and most important, I know that everything is not all about me.

And what the heck does this mean? "I fully believe inequality but not one step either way from actual numerical quantifiable equality. There has to be one single standard and making up new rules for each person who perceives that they have been a victim of discrimination can't be done."

[1StrongBlackMan]

137. Actually, it does ...

It takes away a man's "right" to be dismissive of women who are vocal in defending their right to be heard.

[pipoman]

148. Pretending that I enjoy some privilege is closer

to an ad hom attack too. The poster above probably said it better than I. My boss is a female and so is her's. I manage 6 female and 2 male managers, one of the males is the lowest paid of the group, and the highest isn't the other man. I have absolutely no issues with equality, I have issues with inequality. Many who throw around the term "privilege" in description of huge swaths of people really don't want equality, they want to have some "privilege" of thir own. There are many white males who have not been privileged.

[cui bono]

166. It's about the whole of society. It's not about you personally.

There were a lot of anecdotal stories about how bad the ACA was for certain people. Most of them seemed to have been made up, but leaving that aside, sure there may be some cases where certain people's insurance went up for whatever underlying reason. That doesn't make all of the ACA bad.

You can't relate one workplace where a few women make more than men and think that the issue of women not making equal pay does not exist. It does.

If your boss was a black man or woman it wouldn't mean racism doesn't exist.

[ismnotwasm]

104. What's bad?

We are talking about specific and historical issues regarding the female spectrum of gender. Lessening objectification and raising awareness about it is not "bad" for men.

[VanillaRhapsody]

155. what is the definition of Privilege?

priv·i·lege
ˈpriv(ə lij/Submit
noun
1.
a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group of people.

[pipoman]

158. Who is this oh so privileged group?

[1StrongBlackMan]

33. But ... But ... But ...

"But there are Black racists, too ..."

And there are a lot of misogynist apologists on DU, too.

These false equivalence comments like this actually serves to support the misogynist in their conduct.

[pipoman]

38. 'I'm in the right' 'everyone with a different view is something best described

With a non slur'

[1StrongBlackMan]

46. It's not about a mere "different view" ...

When you, as a member of an out group, minimize the grievance(s) of a member of an aggrieved group by putting up the false equivalence "both sides do it" or "it's subjective", you are not "in the right" ... you are supporting (making it easier for) the offender because you will not take a stand against the conduct.

Both sides don't do it because the sides do not share the same power space and it's not subjective, it's lived and experienced and seen versus not lived and not experienced and therefore, not seen, i.e., excused.

[CrispyQ]

64. Great response. +1

[hlthe2b]

68. +++

[Squinch]

70. .

[boston bean]

78. Thank you so much for saying that.

[ismnotwasm]

109. ....

[roguevalley]

125. anything that will lower the staggering level of rape and abuse in this country

I am for.

[roguevalley]

126. 1StrongBlackMan, I think I have a new sig line. Thank you.

[pipoman]

157. And when people pretend

All members of other race or gender are somehow "privileged" they are in some sort of denial.

[1StrongBlackMan]

191. Pretend? ...

Are you saying that men don't hold a privilege over women and whites over non-whites?

[Squinch]

222. And when people in the privileged gender or race pretend they are not privileged, they

are in BIG denial.

I'm white. The existence of white privilege is as plain as the nose on your face. And as a recipient, I know there is no denying that it exists.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

162. :)

[tooeyeten]

163. Excellent explanation. N/t

[wryter2000]

165. Would that I could recommend a post

Or that we could have a DUzy award for fabulousness.

[redqueen]

173. Oh so very, very, very well said.

[thucythucy]

192. Excellent response!

[geek tragedy]

41. Only to people who don't know what it is. nt

[boston bean]

83. Derailment tactic.

Can't discuss the topic, don't want to discuss the topic, derail derail derail.

Seen it before, this behavior really isn't very special.

[Lordquinton]

199. And it, sadly, worked very well

[Scootaloo]

103. So in other words...

No content, just an announcement of presence.

[WhiteTara]

111. I have a few reactions to your statement

One is...every action has an opposite and equal reaction...some basic physics to begin.

Then...and what have you done to promote misandry?

Then, and oh, you poor widdle baby, you know men of every color and race have male privilege and they aren't afraid to use it in their own personal society and when someone else points that out...oooh, my widdle feewings are hurt.

Then, but then my compassionate self says, yes, I can see how you have had anger directed at you which is always painful. I know that all beings everywhere want to be happy and everyone wants to avoid suffering; but the only way you (anyone) can avoid suffering is to think outside yourself and show compassion to others and then that is what will come back to you.

[roguevalley]

127. Nice repost, White Tara. I have Libra disease too in that I can see both sides as well

both sides have a part in this pov and all of us suffer degrees of effect from it. Nice points.

[WhiteTara]

128. Thanks. Mostly I'm quoting the Dalai Lama

but I do consciously work to live in a way that will be harmonious with others, but as you can see, my knee jerk reaction was top of the list! lol

[roguevalley]

130. that's alright, darling. Know thy self. Every thing you do is a revelation of your

spirit. Everyday is a learning experience. I have great hope for us somehow and your posts help that along. Have a great Sunday, honey. RV

[WhiteTara]

136. ...

[Beartracks]

168. The Dalai Lama said "widdle feewings"??

Just bein' silly.



=====================

[WhiteTara]

177. no...that was me

lol

[awoke_in_2003]

152. I cannot tell you how many times...

I have been persecuted by the women of DU

[amuse bouche]

186. How about some examples?

[pipoman]

210. ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024554688

[amuse bouche]

214. Sorry, you don't have a leg to stand on, for that one

It's just someone blaming women for some male's awful behavior

[Recursion]

204. Stop. Just stop. You're not helping anything.

Seriously. Take a breath, and stop. You're not helping.

[merrily]

207. The OP covered that.

[LanternWaste]

225. I can only imagine that you will provide us with a valid ratio...

I can only imagine that you will provide us with a valid ratio to better validate your allegation, or is "fair amount" merely one of many creative ways to make an unsupported allegation predicated on statistical outliers and aberrations sound more truthful than it actually is?

[bravenak]

227. You are too funny!!!

That's the best one I've heard all day.

[seaglass]

2. I admit that it took me a long time to recognize what you are saying too and I am a woman and a

feminist.

Once you see you cannot unsee.

Your support is appreciated by me.

[Democracyinkind]

3. I had the same epiphany a couple of years ago when the same shit went down.

Curious how this runs in cycles. No wonder that most people only stay a limited amount of time.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

8. I stop short at disbanding TMG. Other than that

You & I are pretty much in full agreement. K&R

[TexasTowelie]

131. +1

I agree with the OP; however, disbanding the Men's Group is taking it too far. DU has groups for feminism and diversity, feminists, history of feminism, women's rights & issues, and women's world. Quite frankly, I don't know how people decide which group to post OPs in because of the overlap amongst those group. It also doesn't say much for diversity on DU if the only group that is designated for men is eliminated.

I've only made one OP posted in the Men's Group (Mens Fashion: 'The Urban Sombrero' and 9 other looks to avoid) and I don't subscribe to the group either; however, there are topics in that group that have nothing to do with objectification or misogyny. In addition to the post I noted above related to men's fashion, there are some topics related to men's health that are much more appropriate for the Men's Group than for the Health groups.

[plantwomyn]

170. My question is

why do you view the feminism and diversity, feminists, history of feminism and women's rights & issues as "designated" for women? Do they exclude men? I think it's unfortunate that men don't think those groups are pertinent to their lives.

[TexasTowelie]

182. That was a poor word choice on my part.

I think that "oriented" might be more applicable.

I also realize that the groups that you mentioned do not specifically exclude men. However, I also noted that a lot of animosity exists amongst some of the posters in those groups so I usually only read the discussions and avoid participating in many of the discussions since I may only have limited knowledge on the various threads.

I'm on DU to inform (primarily with posts in the Texas Group), learn, and occasionally find some amusement so I do read threads in nearly group on DU. However, I prefer serenity over confrontation so staying out of the discussions in certain groups and forums to avoid conflict is probably the best way of sustaining my mental health.

Finally, I am not the arbiter of whether any post, thread, forum or group is purrtinent. However, if you need to investigate there are plenty of catnip threads in the Lounge and Friday Night Catnip posts in the Music Appreciation Group that provide evidence of some of the issues that I consider to be purrtinent.

[hlthe2b]

184. There are many male regular participants in this group (History of Feminism--the largest of the 4)

and none of the groups exclude men. You are posting in HOF right now, in fact, in case you don't realize it. There is a distinct SOP for this group ( http://www.democraticunderground.com/12553074 ), as there is for the other three, so as to avoid animosity within the group and allow those interested to discuss issues within a common starting point. Thus, a person who does not believe in equal rights for women or who argues that total equality has already been obtained is not going to be welcomed, much as someone who disparages your family would not be welcomed in your own home.

But, certainly those who abide the SOP for this and the other groups are quite welcome.

[hlthe2b]

185. No, they absolutely do not exclude men. Please see my response to the other poster #184

[Squinch]

9. Bjorn, I am a woman and I had pretty much the same trajectory as you when I got here.

I am sure there are many, many more of us out there.

I'd see posts from members and think, "Whoa! That's harsh!" Over time, I saw that any harshness from people here was only a reaction to hate, or a response to long term relentless baiting. I also saw any single true harshness from HoFers being dredged up for months and months and months as being unacceptable and horrifying, while absolutely outrageously sexist comments and name calling toward HoFers was cheered.

When you step back, the things these women are saying are not revolutionary, are not unreasonable, are not even all that unusual. They boil down to, "We insist on being treated as people." DU ought to be able to do that.

I think, in threads, I always saw you as someone who was strongly supporting that very reasonable position.

Thank you for this OP.

[roguevalley]

129. it is unfortunate that in our lives we only get to experience truly and fully

one point of view. If we could be men and they women for a few it would explain a great deal. I think that the men squawking about Michael Sam are hilarious. Consider this. Having an out gay man in the locker room ogling the other men (supposedly) like meat will only give them a taste of what women experience all the time. This is a small strange opportunity for a group of men to feel what women have to tolerate all the time.

Tits and ass. Sort of. Its about POV. Some people who never experience the sorrows and hardships of others cannot relate and when they hear it being spoken in the general sense, they feel it personally.

Consider the billionaires whining out there. They will never understand us. The small jabs and lack of respect they are getting for being money nazis is as close as they have come and they whine. I consider it a learning opportunity for them that they will fail because their entitled sense of personal offense is taking over their chance to change. That is what happens with men and their sense of personal affront at thinking they are being lumped in with the others. MY FATHER WAS MY HERO AND HE SUPPORTED ME AND MY MOTHER ON HIS SHOULDERS FOREVER! He exulted in our triumphs and he caught us in our defeats. If I live TWO MILLION YEARS I WILL NEVER REPAY TO HIM THE SENSE OF LOVE AND INVINCIBILITY that I feel because he SUPPORTED AND BELIEVED IN ME, MY SISTER AND MY MOTHER.

He is not part of this problem. He would not be included. Men need to listen with their ears and hearts. If you are already swimming with us, don't worry. This wasn't aimed at you. We want you with us. WE WANT YOU! Join us and listen. For those of us without experience in someone elses shoes ... the black, red, white, gender, sexual orientation, cultural, religious, economic and philosophical 'divides' that we create, WE NEED TO LISTEN! Then and only then will understanding and peace come. I have eternal hope for all of us. This place has some of my favorite teachers. I don't always like the lesson but I am ETERNALLY grateful for the teachers.

Even the ones that don't get it. Yet.

[Tanuki]

11. Thank you, Bjorn, for your support and for taking a stand,

which unfortunately equates with taking a lot of malicious crap on other threads from the vocal misogynist minority. And thank you, HoF regulars, for doing so much of the heavy lifting on a consistent basis and absorbing so much hate and abuse on behalf of all the rest of us. I don't know how you can take this; I hardly post at all but I am so sick of what I have seen lately that I am ready to ditch DU in disgust. You folks rock!

[Squinch]

14. One thing that this controversy has made clear is that

there are so many like you out there. People who don't post much, but who read a lot, and who are as horrified by this as those of us who do post often.

That is good to know.

[boston bean]

86. Taking the time to look at the recs we recieve

from persons who don't post here at all, supports your statement.

[PasadenaTrudy]

31. Same here...

I ended up trashing the GD forum...but it is tempting to leave DU.

[chervilant]

16. Thank you for this OP.

Thank goodness the tiny contingent of verbally abusive misogynists are NOT representatives of the majority of the male members of this forum.

[ismnotwasm]

123. +1000

[Starry Messenger]

147. Correct on all points.

[cinnabonbon]

216. That is something that's fortunately true.

Lots of good guys here.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

17. im not awake enough to type coherently, but thanks

Bjorn.

You always add a thoughtful perspective. Thanks for this powerful OP.


Back to sleep now....

[heaven05]

18. just like racism, homophobia, misogyny

Last edited Mon Feb 24, 2014, 09:12 AM - Edit history (1)

is systemic and institutionalized. Until there is a major shift in cultural norms that americans(males) embrace now and that the 45% of women who voted for romney back, sadly, like 300 years of racism in this country the thousands of years of misogyny will not change anytime soon. "if people cannot handle treating women with respect then they do not belong on this site". True. I respect all who respect me.

[Squinch]

22. +1

[JustAnotherGen]

29. +1000

[whathehell]

19. Thanks much, Bjorn. "Misogyny is the last acceptable bigotry of the Left",

as Nation writer Katha Pollitt says...It takes guts for a man to speak out against it here.

[frazzled]

62. Ditto (many thanks to Bjorn), and the Pollitt quote really does seem true

As a woman, I am not someone who spends a lot of my mental energy thinking about women's issues, and I've never even been to the feminism forum here. But there are times when the everyday invisibility of misogyny just rears up and smacks you in the face, and you realize that it must be brought out in the open and fought against, no matter how much society wants to normalize it, or ignore it.

Let us recall that the feminist movements of the 60s and 70s did not so much arise as a reaction to conservative forces but to the male hegemony (and attendant misogyny) of movements on the radical left of that era.

It seems that we can more easily recognize incidents of racism or homophobia than incidents of misogyny: that is how ingrained the acceptance of inequality for women is in our society. Whether we are talking about offensive representations of women in films or the media, job or housing discrimination that women face, or actual violence against women (which is so frequent we seem to think it is not even worth talking about), it seems that people want to ignore it or dismiss it as an issue entirely. Misogyny does truly seem to be the last acceptable bigotry.

I don't care whether we're talking about Sports Illustrated or Julian Assange or Anthony Weiner's selfies: women must not be afraid to stand up--even stridently--against inequality and intolerance. And such discussions shouldn't be relegated to a back-room forum. I'm proud that many DU women are fighting back openly (along with enlighted men such as Bjorn). I, for one, intend not to back down on these issues in the future.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

164. ++++++!

[niyad]

20. thank you very much for your support. I would expect that you will receive a lot of flak for this

support, just know that you are appreciated for having seen the light, as it were. the level of hatred and ugliness on this supposedly democratic site is sickening.

[hlthe2b]

23. Hearing from those whose eyes have been opened by recent DU activity...

is important for admins to hear as well. Perhaps you would consider making your views known to admins in the ATA forum.

But, I have to say, i am very reassured to see a number of DU men step forward. Thank you for your eloquence.

[Bjorn Against]

51. Thanks, I will let Skinner know my views.

[closeupready]

25. I agree, Bjorn.

Also don't agree about shutting down Men's Group, but on everything else, do agree. K&R

[Solly Mack]

27. K&R

[PasadenaTrudy]

28. Thank you

I've had to trash so many terms to even attempt to visit GD anymore. I saw this post on the home page and decided to read it. You are a smart and evolved man, like my boyfriend. Thank goodness there are men like you both out there

[Cleita]

30. To be frank, I have always found DU to be misogynist to a point but not

more so than most places women have to interact with men. Over the years it has improved and the administrators have tried to make it more female friendly. However, now some women here are using their bully pulpit to impose their morality on the rest of us.

I agree that certain things don't belong here. I would vigorously object to a Playmate spread here or the cover of Hustler magazine. Most newsstands actually set the standards of what is acceptable to be displayed and what isn't. The SI cover is on display in the supermarkets for chrissakes. Playboy, Penthouse, Hustler, etc. are available but not on display.

The cover displays a fashion shoot of three young, half naked women. They are topless, but the nudity is not frontal. They have their backs turned to us and they are wearing bikini bottoms that you can see on any beach or swimming pool. They are in a pose that is reminiscent of The Three Graces, which has been done in painting and sculpture for thousands of years. I believe that's what the stylists, the photographers and magazine had in mind in that pose they struck. They have been so airbrushed, they are more illusion than real. The thing is you can see many fashion photos in any fashion magazine that are styled the same way and with as much nudity.

So you don't treat us with respect when you net nanny us and treat us like children who aren't adult enough to look at the naughty pictures.

[packman]

40. You missed the Point, the objection, the whole 9 yards!

The point is, WHY was the SI magazine cover even posted on the DU? Explore that simple question. Was it to increase sales of the magazine? Was it to admire the models? Was it to create controversy? Was it to meant to appeal to some dissipated, libertine side of the DU'er's? Was it just put up there to say, "Wow, look at those bods - I'm going to share this wonderful moment with someone". Shit, if the poster wanted us to admire and be in awe of something, post a picture of a sunset or, better yet, cats.

[Cleita]

45. FYI the swim suit edition of SI has always been posted on DU in the past. I've been here since 2003

and I have never seen this faux outrage before. Sometimes there was some grumbling from the extreme feminists. Mostly not. The thread sunk after one day until next year. Actually as far as the cats. They would be naked. Someone would object in the moral outrage atmosphere today.

[MadrasT]

55. "Faux outrage"?

That seems very dismissive and does not reflect a desire to understand anyone else's perspective on the issue.

[CrispyQ]

76. Evolution is a good thing!

Just because something has always been, doesn't mean it should always be.

The outrage is not faux, it is real. Both men & women are waking up to the harm objectifying women does to both genders & we are speaking out against it. This is the positive side of all the negativity - that people like Bjorn see the issue from a different perspective, not just the status quo's perspective.

I look forward to the day when the swimsuit issue evolves to feature male & female athlete swimmers, not models in titillating poses.

[KitSileya]

61. Don't bother, trying to explain how these pictures, no matter how "artistic", harm real young women

by creating a culture where they are constantly told they need to be thinner, more beautiful, have bigger boobs, that their worth is in their looks; that even if these girls should one day win the Nobel prize in Physics, most of the articles about the win will start with a description of how they look and what they are wearing - or whether they are married or not - such explanations are just us trying to be mean, doncha know.

[seaglass]

63. Yes, comments from my senator about running for office:

http://swampland.time.com/2012/07/31/elizabeth-warren-on-running-for-office-its-been-a-hard-learning-curve-for-me/

Deviating from her regimen of wonky populism is difficult for Warren and she expresses discomfort talking about the minutiae that often inundate a high-profile race like the one in Massachusetts. “When people want to talk about what I’m wearing, it’s hard on me. I don’t want to talk about what I’m wearing. I don’t want to talk about my haircut. I don’t want to talk about whether I move my head too much or wave my hands a lot,” she says. Not 15 minutes before, a supporter in a nearby coffee shop had told Warren she was “too school teachery.”

That’s just part of electoral politics, a game that Warren says she’s still figuring out. “I’m a first time candidate, I’m not a real politician. I say this over and over. I guess the way to describe it is that it’s been a hard learning curve for me,” she says, pausing before she circles back to a populist soundbite, “to understand that parts of the race would not be about what’s happening to our working families.”

[Squinch]

65. The explanation that is being floated in another thread is that someone called someone a

name three months ago. The person who was called a name put it up as a tit-for-tat, excuse the pun.

Seriously. This is the argument in defense of the thread. And lots of folks are getting on there and saying, "Yeah! She was called a name by one of those prudes!"

Sometimes it's funny.

[hlthe2b]

84. Then you should have alerted... Coming in here to smear posters in this group with

such blanket accusations is unacceptable. And, no, it is not funny.

[hlthe2b]

90. Then you are merely coming here to make insinuations & stir trouble. Kindly stop it.

[hlthe2b]

94. You are in a group with specific SOP for participation, which includes civil discussion.

This is your warning to post respectfully or you will be blocked from further participation with cause.

SOP for your review:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12553074

[Orrex]

96. Whoops--thought this thead was posted in GD. My error.

Regardless, I will withdraw in deference to the group's SOP.

[hlthe2b]

97. I understand... Thank you for your cooperation.

[Squinch]

150. Hlthe2b, I didn't see

that response to my post, but I feel certain that thanks are in order.

So thank you.

[hlthe2b]

156. no problem...

[Tuesday Afternoon]

237. was that about what I think it was about?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

238. so sick of this shit, Squinch. is this about what I think it is about?

[Squinch]

241. Yes. You saw it already. I just can't believe that was given as the reason

for all of this baiting THREE months later. Such a crock.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

243. thank you.

So tired of all this childish nonsense.

[Bjorn Against]

43. No one is saying you are not adult enough to look at the pictures

All I am saying is be respectful of people, if you want to look at pictures of scantily clad women on your own time that is fine with me all I ask is that you show some basic respect to people and not feel like you need to share those pictures with people who have said they don't want to see them.

[Cleita]

52. Why can't people use the trash thread and ignore button?

It's so easy. I do it all the time on threads and people I find offensive. Some of us don't find those photos outrageous and frankly I think the outrage is phony. That kind of fashion shoot has been around for decades and not hidden anywhere except here in a so-called progressive forum.

[Bjorn Against]

54. Why do you think the photos are appropriate for GD?

Just what sort of discussion do you hope to get out of pictures of scantilly clad women? This is a political message board, it is not hotornot.com.

[MadrasT]

57. Perhaps you'd like to take your own advice for this thread? n/t

[cui bono]

198. Why would the outrage be phony? What would be the desired result of that?

[hlthe2b]

44. Many women of my generation...

chose to deal with blatant misogyny by making excuses for it, thinking that ingratiated them with men. It is not a rare phenomenon, but it never seemed to work for them.

Your feelings as demonstrated in your accusations towards women in this group and towards feminist women in general are duly noted, however, Cleita. Please note, however that this is a group with a specific SOP that you need to observe if you wish to continue posting here and that implies being respectful. It is NOT my desire to have to see you blocked from posting here. Thank you for your cooperation.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12553074

[Cleita]

48. I am respectful when I post, but when I don't get respect I will give back in kind.

This is not Catholic school and I'm an adult with my own opinions that might differ from yours.

[hlthe2b]

49. Consider this a warning. n/t

[Cleita]

53. Consider this a warning. Don't make threats. n/t

[JustAnotherGen]

56. Please stop

I'm not a group host or of any importance at DU - I understand you are very hurt by something . . . But someone who is an active poster and member of this group was very hurt too. Just drop the rope. Seriously - when a web site hurts anyone it's not good. Just drop the dang rope. Namaste. Peace.

[Sheldon Cooper]

67. Why did you come into this protected group to spew your shit?

Isn't there a rape victim somewhere that you can go torment?

Jury - go ahead and hide. Everyone will read this anyway and I'll be proud to take the hit.

[hlthe2b]

71. ^^The poster has been blocked from this group^^

and will be unable to respond further on this thread.

[Sheldon Cooper]

72. Thank you.

Her horrific behavior a few days ago drove a well-liked person from this board. She remained unapologetic and was immediately forgiven and welcomed back with open arms by the owner of this site. That says alot, doesn't it?

We may have to tolerate her abuse in GD but we don't have to do that here.

[Democracyinkind]

77. Bullies playing the victim. It's always the same schtick. Sad that it seems to be working for them.

[KitSileya]

79. Yes, I really appreciated being told that harassment was my fault,

because of the sick world I lived in (and she didn't) and how I should just not let it bother me, and how, when I politely explained about our reason for objecting to the SI SI cover, I only wanted to be mean. I mean, racism and harassment and bigotry wouldn't be a problem if we just didn't let it bother us, don't you know?

[JustAnotherGen]

92. Sorry you had

To deal with that on a beautiful Sunday morning.

[spooky3]

100. Thank you.

Please see my PM to you.

[boston bean]

89. And under what circumstance does that allow you to accuse a rape victim of lying

about her rape...

[spooky3]

95. Look at your first sentence. You are applying the wrong standard.

DU is a progressive site. Members should expect to see LESS sexism, racism, etc than they encounter elsewhere. They should expect that fellow progressives will recognize and confront bad behavior.

Further as has been pointed out MANY times, posting that type of image in a workplace in the US would NOT be tolerated. So it is simply not true that these images like the SI cover are perfectly acceptable.

As Judge Judy might say, "don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining."

[spooky3]

101. Obviously, these results say far more about

The complete failure of the jury to apply the SOP, and other problems. The person who posted the violating post been blocked from this forum.

[BainsBane]

114. Actually hosts enforce SOPs

Juries are to enforce community standards. The alerter would have had to make the case that the post was offensive or insulting in some way.
Hosts can only lock OPs, but they can ban members who make clear they do not respect the SOP of the group.

[spooky3]

116. Thanks. It would be helpful if this

Info were included on the SOP page, with links to the hosts' addresses, if not a separate button like "alert."

In any case only one of the jurors pointed this out and several others made inappropriate comments, even though the alerter clearly stated that the concern was the SOP and the poster's choosing to come to the HoF forum despite recent problems.

[BainsBane]

117. what I do in such cases

Is PM one or both of the hosts. You can click on their names from the About This Group Section: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=about&forum=1255

[spooky3]

118. Thanks. I'm just saying it should be easier to find

This info.

[spooky3]

120. If you were not willing to read the alert

And reply appropriately, you should have declined the opportunity to serve on the jury. Fail.

[hlthe2b]

121. ^^The poster has been blocked from this group^^

and can no longer respond to posts directed to them in this forum.

[spooky3]

122. Thank you.

[sheshe2]

34. Thank you Bjorn.

So eloquently stated.

Respect will always be a two way street, if you have it and you show it you will receive it back twofold.

[Ohio Joe]

36. The 'mens' Group is mis-named... It is truly the MRA Group...

They do not discuss issues faced by men (which do exist)... There are pretty much only two kinds of posts, those that attack feminists and those that try to portray men as being oppressed by women. The way their open and hostile misogyny has spilled over into GD is very disturbing and I am disappointed by the Admins for allowing it to go as far as it does.

[geek tragedy]

42. In fairness, there's hot celebrity fantasies too. nt

[ismnotwasm]

112. LOL!

[thucythucy]

194. Which generate more responses

than almost all the other OPs combined.

[Squinch]

66. Interesting how it is men who are the ones pointing that out, and who, understandably,

are the most disturbed by that.

Thank you for this.

[Bluenorthwest]

75. It sure is not 'The Men's Group' and it is very much misnamed.

I'm a man. It sure as hell is not my group.

[BainsBane]

115. My sense is 98% of the men on this site feel the same

I have my own alternative names for it, none of which I can write here.

[justhanginon]

146. I agree wholeheartedly!

I went to have a looksee at the MRA group and frankly, as a man, I found some of it embarrassing. I know I may be getting old but I just have never in my life thought about women like that and needless to say never felt oppressed.
Well, there was the one time when I got a speeding ticket from a lady officer because I am a man and had nothing to do with going 45 in a 30 zone. Other than that .........

[geek tragedy]

221. +100. nt

[Democracyinkind]

47. So let's post porn and snuff movies, then, right?

Because you can just look away if you think it doesn't belong in GD of a POLITICAL message board.

[KitSileya]

59. No, I know, let's post blackface minstrel shows, and "sh#m%le" porn.

African Americans can just trash the threads if they object to them, and transgender persons, well, who cares about them? And while we're at it, lets reinstate every republican who lost their job because they sent out emails where they portrayed President Obama as a monkey, the recipients could have just sent the emails to the trash, (not to mention, we're all apes, so really, portraying a black man as a monkey is practically posting facts!)

Do I really need the sarcasm smilie? I guess, some people have such bad reading comprehension they only seem to be able to look at pictures, so I should hedge my bets...

[Democracyinkind]

60. It's really mind-boggling. They don't even realize that they're arguing for anarchy. nt

[Divernan]

73. Just how GOP Governor Corbett talks about mandatory vaginal ultrasounds

for women deciding to have abortions. The Governor tells them if they don't like it, they can just close their eyes. I have stopped what I was doing and stepped in to intervene on 4 occasions when people (always men) were physically threatening or abusing children (not their own kids) in public locations. The locations were a museum dining room, a mall parking lot, a sidewalk in front of a fire station, and a downtown street. But other people were content to just avert their eyes and walk on by.

I feel sorry for men whose lives are so lacking in gratification and satisfaction when it comes to their sexual needs, that they are reduced to anonymously posting such photos on a political discussion website. That pity does not extend to ignoring it or accepting it, or deluding myself that it doesn't exist.

[JustAnotherGen]

50. Thank you

That's all!

[Whisp]

58. It's good of you to come out and say that.

The last little while has been awful in GD but I see that there are a lot of minds that are changing to what you said here, changing or just being open about saying what they see is wrong.

The ones that poke and prod like twittering prepubescent boys are vastly outnumbered and are being seen now for what they really are - immature and somewhat pitiful.

[Warren Stupidity]

69. it is important that the men of DU stand up and speak out. nt.

[etherealtruth]

74. It has become quite blatant

I used to ignore the blatantly sexist posters assuming that "you can't fix stupid" ... but the misogyny has become so blatant and so "in your face" I will not ignore it any longer.

[TDale313]

80. Thank you.

[boston bean]

81. Very nice.

I really appreciate it. Here's to the hope that the added voices will lead to some change here for women and feminists on DU.



How in the world does a democratic website allow itself to continue to harass, name call, shame, feminists and the female experience. I don't know. But it's nice to see others standing up to it.

[CrispyQ]

87. This is the positivity of all the negativity,

that even a handful of people see the issue from a new perspective other than the status quo's.

Interestingly, a few DUers who I thought were wonderful women, are actually wonderful men.

~kick

[MadrasT]

91. I am a female bodied person and I used to think the same thing.

It seemed like the feminists on this site were disagreeable and getting too worked up over stuff that didn't matter.

I thought I was *way* too cool and "with it" to let myself get bothered by sexism. I would just laugh and play along with the "the boys" so I could be the cool girl who was OK by them. (In real life more than on DU.)

Problem is... then I saw it... and realized what I had been doing... and what is seen cannot be unseen.

I used to think of women who objected as uptight humorless prudes, too.

Then (several years ago) I realized that I was selling out for cookies and pats on the head from men who I couldn't respect anyway because they had such a dim view of women, in general. So what if I didn't think I was like "those women" (the women they were trash talking) -- all women deserve better from society.

I don't even identify as "a woman" but people who do identify as women don't deserve that kind of treatment.*

Thanks for speaking out.


*I identify as nongendered.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

239. I could just hug you right now. Thank you for this post.

[MostlyAmused]

102. From a quiet member

I obviously rarely post here, but have been a member for many years and come here daily to read. I find so many great nuggets here, from politics to science, that I pass on to friends and followers via social media and FTF conversation. So while I rarely participate directly, I value this forum and I consistently work to amplify the discussion and information outwards.

I've seen many waves of disagreement and disruption through the years, but for the first time I find myself thinking twice before I visit. The misogyny has indeed gone through the roof lately and seems like an orchestrated redirection of the site. It is aggressively ugly, and speaking as a longtime quiet visitor, it does diminish this place.

I hesitated to speak up, given the fact that I rarely contribute here, but this place is so valuable even to those of us who are quiet. I appreciate the OP tremendously.

[spooky3]

106. Thank you for speaking up.

I think many agree with you. Maybe it will take thousands of DUers' speaking up, to make a difference.

[hlthe2b]

107. Thank you for your comments. I hope you feel comfortable in this group. n/t

[ismnotwasm]

105. Thank you

Such a great post

[WhiteTara]

113. Thanks Bjorn Against

I appreciate your statements. There are many times I want to speak out against, but as a woman, I don't want the fire storm that will come in its wake.

Sadly, misogyny is everywhere and is as deeply entrenched as racism.
Thanks for your support.

May I be safe,May all beings be safe
May I have peace, May all beings everywhere have peace.

[MindMover]

132. Humongous KR ... nt

[Hell Hath No Fury]

133. You are my kind of man.

Thank you for recognizing what has been happening here.

I had not really ventured into the MG here -- I finally did and was appalled at much of what I was reading. I now look at what some of the MG members have posted in GD/the Lounge with new insight. I will also now be more vigilant and active in challenging sexism when I see it on DU.

[Warpy]

138. Harassment of women here became a big issue

When the Men's Group started. I thought that group was a bad idea at the time for the same reason a White Power Group and a Multiillionaire Group would have been, seriously entitled people have been circling the wagons lately and nothing enables them to escalate like a group of like minded people at the top of the entitlement chain.

Time has only succeeded in confirming my worst fears about that group, it's acting just like MRA groups across the web are and the action is not good.

My own ignore list, once restricted to word jumpers and other threadshitters has expanded to include many members of that group.

DU has been a safe haven for all lefties, especially in the early 00s when the country solidified around Stupid after 9/11. That is no longer the case now that it has a "no gurls alowd" sign that has been tacked up by the worst behaved members of one group. It is no longer a safe place for women to post.

Yes, there has been friction between believers and atheists, conspiracy theorists and boring fact based people (ahem) and vegans and omnivores. Most of that has been on the level of banter and easy to dismiss, no one is going to change belief or behavior based on a web site.

However, the systematic trashing, belittling, denial, baiting, patronizing, and viciousness toward half the human race is different.

Thank you for your post, Bjorn Against, it lets us see that not all men are represented by that group. You're one of the people here who convince me it's not hopeless.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

167. well said!

There are a lot of great posts in this thread.

Ha, I just had a post hidden--because i was blunt to a typical DU misogynist.

As usual, the troll hides behind innuendo, cryptic references, and words that are obviously hostile sexist language, but haven't made it to the NotOK list.

[KitSileya]

171. That's too bad.

I am lying in bed, not getting to sleep because I was composing a rather... forceful... rant about how a lot of liberals use prude as a pejorative when it is part of freedom of choice to choose not to have sex as much as to choose to have sex without guilt in either case. Their use of prude and prudishness is exactly the same as the conservatives' use of 'sl#t' - it is meant to make someone feel bad about their sexual choices.

When we teach young kids to prevent sexual abuse, we teach them that they have the right to choose who touches them and looks at them, and we teach them that no one have the right to force them to touch or look at anybody else's genitals. Likewise, we have the right not to have to see nude people if we don't want to. We're not prudes if we do not want to see someone suddenly undress in a mall, or a couple get up on stage during a concert so that they can 'f#ck for forrest' as a protest against environmental exploitation. There are places where we should be able to have reasonable expectations with regards to nudity, porn and sexual talk. Asking people to comply with those boundaries is not prudishness.

How many of us haven't experienced having our boundaries trampled on and denied? How many of us are sexual abuse and/ or rape survivors? If we tell people where our boundaries are, on a Democratic forum, shouldn't we be able to expect that instead of doubling down on their abuse, they listen to us?

[MadrasT]

176. Yes, exactly.

"Sexual freedom" includes the freedom to not do it, to say "no" as often as you want, and even to not be very interested in it at all , including not wanting to be inundated with other people's sexytime fixations on a political message board.

Yet those choices are indeed shamed - exactly the same way some people slut-shame.

People's sexuality should not be used to judge their worth or to demean them. Period.

When someone hurls "prude" at a woman it is exactly the same thing as hurling "slut". It's insulting someone based on a perceived level of that person's sexual activity, and judging it as "bad".

[historylovr]

232. +1

[AAO]

139. +999999999999999999999.9999999999999999999999999

[BainsBane]

140. Bjorn Against

I wonder if you might consider PMing your OP to Skinner and EarlG?

[Bjorn Against]

172. I just made a new post in the ATA forum

I was honestly not expecting as big of a response as I got for this post, I thought I would probably hear back from the HoF regulars but I never expected that I would get over a hundred recs when I posted in a sub-group rather than a main forum.

Obviously many of the people who have responded are not regular HoF participants, but there are clearly a lot of people who stand in solidarity with you right now. I hope the admins notice this and do something.

[BainsBane]

178. I agree that the support has been encouraging

I hope Skinner responds to your question.

[Agschmid]

188. You made it to the greatest page...

And I think the exposure is good!

[pnwmom]

143. One intelligent, thoughtful post like this makes up for dozens by the knee-jerk nasties. Thank you!

[BainsBane]

149. the 97 recs help too

As do the other threads saying enough is enough with 177 and 102 recs. The excuse that it's only a few HOF members who care is being exposed for the lie it is.

[TDale313]

159. Absolutely!

It kinda gives me a bit of hope that after the recent nastiness perhaps we're reaching a bit of a tipping point? It's becoming too blatant to ignore, even for those who may not normally hear the dog whistles. Or maybe I'm just wearing my Rose Coloured glasses right now

[BainsBane]

161. It looks like it

You see them changing their arguments. First the pictures weren't objectification. Now they are on their heels arguing objectification will always exist or it's the fault of women for wearing high heels. They are scrambling.

[wryter2000]

160. I can't thank you enough

There are many, many men here who make me proud to be a DUer. Of course, it took you a while to see what was going on. It's more difficult to see mistreatment if it doesn't affect you personally. The fact that you did see it speaks volumes about the kind of man you are.

[sufrommich]

169. OPs like this confirm my instinct

that the vast majority of DU men (and women) are very much attuned to feminist ideals. I love that so many men stood up during this latest attack on feminism here on DU to say " no,sorry,that's not who I am or what I believe". Bravo,to all of you.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

174. Comparing HOF to the MG

Last edited Sun Feb 23, 2014, 09:41 PM - Edit history (1)

is like comparing a good rockin' party to a poor dead horse.

[DonCoquixote]

179. a quote that needs to be kept and put on repeat

" I may be a man myself, but the Men's Group is not inclusive of men like me or many of the other men on this site who believe women should be respected. If people can't handle treating women with respect then they do not belong on this site. Period."

And no, that is not some way to make men the topic of discussion, as a poster accused me of when I said something to that effect, this is to let the men's group know that no, we are not going to let you act as if you speak for us, because you do NOT!

[Gman]

181. What would DU be without the drama

A pretty good website, for one thing. There has always been drama here of some kind.

[DeSwiss]

183. Misogyny, like racism......

...is a device used to control people by those who are too stupid and disconnected from truth, to realize that they have no right to do so.

- That won't be the case for very much longer.....

K&R

[blackspade]

187. Well said!

[UtahLib]

190. I'm so encouraged by your support and that of so many

others who are fed up with the obvious harassment of this group. Thank you so much.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

193. Don't fall for it. It's always the tiny handful of right wingers posing as DUers posting this trash

It's never real, normal, DU lib men. It's only right wing nutjobs in here trying to pass as libs.

[kickysnana]

195. Cheers.

I cannot even read these discussions anylonger but I do know:

There are some loud misogynists on this board.
There are trolls and other jerks on this board.
There are dedicated people in political parties, religions, industy, goverment and the military that see DU as a threat and the best way to twart us is to cause dissension and make us look bad.

I don't know what the answer is. But we have to find a solution if we are ever to get back to making things better rather than wasting time throwing worlds around to people who don't really care anyway.

[freshwest]

200. Very well state. Thanks. n/t

[fleabiscuit]

196. Noob says he went and scanned the mens group.

Nothing lost if it goes away IMHO.

Sigh.
Screw that, it's lame as hell. Probably should be left as a testament to something.

[BainsBane]

197. It's flourishing in GD as we speak

[fleabiscuit]

219. That's why it doesn't matter if the group goes away.

The lameness of the mens group speaks for itself when it isn't challenged. If you can't cause a dust up the sickness isn't satisfied, because that's what it's about.

[freshwest]

201. Thanks for a thoughtful OP. I blow these off as hopeless, usually. And appreciate this. n/t

[Sherman A1]

203. Is it misogyny or perhaps

a simple lack of civility overall (which I tend to believe)?

I have not seen many threads on the current SI issue as I have GD trashed as I have found the forum to be exceptionally lacking in civility.

Even with that, it is not hard to figure out that there seems to be a significant controversy going on this site about the SI Swimsuit issue (which I have seen, needed to do a quick review for my workplace and decided after discussing with others that it would not go on the shelf for sale).

Just my opinion, but I think an improvement in overall civility would tend to deal with much of the misogyny of which you speak.

[Sheldon Cooper]

212. It is misogyny in a lot of cases.

Sometimes the hatred for women that shines through in their posts make it quite obvious that they have "issues". Those men are pretty creepy and best avoided.

For others, I think they relish the chance to be an internet troll so they can beat up on whomever they can get away with beating. They can't really pick on people of color, nor LGBT, as that would not be tolerated here. But the owners have made it abundantly clear that beating up on women (metaphorically, or course) is A-OK, so that's their target.

You can call that a lack of civility if you choose. I think it's far more malignant than that.

[emsimon33]

205. K&R

[myrna minx]

206. Thank you so much.

On edit - This post has lifted my heart. I've been disturbed by the hateful misogyny here, but your post has reminded me of the wonderful men and women here who are united against racism and sexism on both our message board and I our society as a whole. Thank for for *seeing* it and thank you for standing with us.

[merrily]

208. A lot of the misogyny seems to come from those who lean right in general.

[sufrommich]

213. Some also seem to be the same people who get

agitated whenever white privilege comes up too.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

215. you noticed it, too.

coincidence, maybe? ... I am beginning to doubt that theory.

[DanTex]

217. K&R. I agree completely. The recent nonsense has been pretty eye-opening.

[Whisp]

218. I saw your post in ATA. The future looks grim. n/t

[DURHAM D]

220. Thank you for this OP and your question in ATA.

You may not be aware that sexism and misogyny is not prohibited on DU3. It was on DU2 but the language of the TOS was changed for DU3.

[hrmjustin]

223. K&R!

[A-Schwarzenegger]

224. SKINNER: "So we're genuinely conflicted. Do we lay down the law,

Last edited Mon Feb 24, 2014, 07:52 PM - Edit history (1)

or do we trust the community?"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12595046#post1

Seems like he's asking you/us what to do, Bjorn.

Are 178 recs (at last count) on a little post in a tiny obscure sub-group enough to suggest a way to go? Hmmm...

It seems to me this thread represents a pretty good chunk of the
community, and that the community is therefore suggesting that, Yes, Admins, lay down the law.

Skinner/Earl are leaders, like it or not, and it looks like time to lead.

Part of good leadership is conferring with the community to see what the community thinks, and it seems like Skinner's answer to you is doing just that.

If I read ATA correctly, and hopefully, Skinner is asking you, as a kind of representative of the community at the moment, what to do.

Could be false hope, but it seems like an opportunity.

[Bjorn Against]

229. Thanks, I was at work so I was unable to provide a response to Skinner right away

I did give him a reply now however, hopefully he will take action.

[MadrasT]

230. Your response was thoughtful and well presented.

I thank you. Deeply.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

231. Amen.

[seaglass]

233. I think your insight about where juries fail was spot on. A very thoughtful post. Thanks. n/t

[RBStevens]

234. Yes thank you from me as well.

[Sheldon Cooper]

235. That was an outstanding response.

As was your OP. Thanks!

[Tuesday Afternoon]

242. Thank you for that reply and also thanks for the OP in GD. Thank you.

[bravenak]

228. Thank you, sir!

I have found what you say to be true.
At first I was wondering why were the feminists so mad?

It took me a few hours of going back and reading blue links and searching to figure out what was going on.
I was rather shocked at the way some of the men mostly, but a few women too, would stalk feminists and report on every little thing they said or did. They would post about incidents from years back that didn't even involve them and that had been resolved years ago.


It has changed the way I interact with the man in my life, so that's a good thing. I'm always ready to correct his improper thinking nowadays, and I don't let nothing slide. I can't send my man out into the world acting like these guys. I'd be ashamed by his behavior and I have been in the past.
Now I find him directing his friends not to disrespect women, telling them it makes them look weak. We have daughters now, and it has changed his outlook.