Moral Obligations

[Tuesday Afternoon]

Does a person have a moral obligation to understand how the bills are paid?
If you are living in a one income household do you know what your partner does for a living?
Do you know where the money comes from?
Do you care?

Why or why not?

Thanks.

[JustAnotherGen]

1. Moral - No

Assuming this scenario is one where the woman is the stay at home partner with a man - she has an obligation to herself to understand "What happens if he gets sick or dies?".

We tend to wrap money up in a divorce situation . . . But when I talk of death - it makes women realize -

You have to survive. Knowing your finances is survival.

It is also advice I gave to a stay at home dad in a gay marriage. Couple I've been friends with for 8 years. My question to Zach - what happens if Tim dies and it's just you and Makayla? It wasn't a "moral" question to him - it was a survival question.

[brer cat]

2. Absolutely.

I have worked for an accounting firm and I been stunned at the number of widows who call crying because they have no idea how to handle even simple financial matters: balancing a check book, gathering tax papers, etc. It is really inexcusable for one partner to not know these basic things. Divorce, death or disabling illness are traumatic enough without this added burden.

K&R for a good thread, JustAnotherGen.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

3. So then, you could marry a Drug Dealer? What about a hitman for the Mafia?

What about a Loan Shark?

Would you or would you not draw a line?

If so, where is the line?

[JustAnotherGen]

4. Ahh - you are talking about criminal activity

My mind totally didn't go there!



What's the trigger for this? In my world - everyone is doing the right thing - except for me in college - had a ciggy bus but I paid all of my taxes so it's allllllllllll good .

Ironically - I was very good friends with and shared customers with the campus pot dealer - but this was 20 some odd years ago so I'm sure the statute is off.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

5. I am talking about Morals which do not always agree with Legal.

I could not care less about the Pot Dealer unless it was so Big Time that hurting people becomes involved but, then again, that would go back to the money at stake.

I understand cigarettes are a big business from the South to the North.

What does pack go for in NYC these days, anyway?

I can't believe people still smoke in 2014.
I can't believe the people that work in Inhalation Therapy and then take a smoke break

[JustAnotherGen]

6. I don't smoke - sorry can't help there!

But I know American Spirits out at the PA reservations were pretty cheap a few years ago - like may $2 or 3$ a pack????

I can't give away my business plan - but it involves -

University on the Canadian Border
Cross border.
Buck was worth $1.30 canadian.
Marlboros were selling for $10/$12 Canadian.
Access to Indian Reservation.
Buy cigs.
Enlist friends with purses.
Give them a cut in the bars in Niagara Falls Canada.
Oh -and a pack or two for the Canadian border officials.

Yeah - this was that FINAL time when my dad figured out what I was up to that he said - "At this point - MAYBE you can tunnel back to the right path. If you try really hard. And you are gonna pay the taxes on this!"


Re Morals - people in relationships lie. What if a man tells a woman he's just a simple accountant -but on the side he deals heroin. He's never been caught - has no arrest record. At what point is it a woman's responsibility to find out how the guy wipes his ass? We can't know everything.


I met my husband at 36 - so I was single for a looooooooong time.

I wasn't responsible/had no moral responsibility to know if a man was married or not.

I'm certain that I've been on first dates with married men - that I figured it out by the second date. It's not hard. But what if a man traffics in human beings? It's not as easy to figure out as it is to figure out if he is married. What if he is a child pornographer?

I would think by the time a woman has gotten to the point of marrying someone - she would know the deal. I can't judge her for her choices - or reasons for marrying -

Any more than I could judge a woman for staying - once she figures it out. Or let's say in the case of an abused woman - not my place to judge her for staying.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

7. do you judge a man?

[JustAnotherGen]

8. Making the same choices?

Nope!

I'm not trying to argue with you here! We are all HOF'ers -

I seriously thought this was a discussion about 'smart finances' for women - which I'm allllllllllll about.

I also was a 25 year old helping my mom navigate through literally millions of dollars when my dad had a massive stroke (he lived another very very GOOD 12/13 years). I saw how a woman could be a VP of a Hotel Management Company, have all of the knowledge in the world, be politically active, socially engaged . . .

yet she was totally out of touch with my parents wealth and resources.

The way you posed the question? I thought we were judging women for not having their hands around that.

^I think it's quite common. And it can really really hurts us. So I'm always going to push women - single or married or partnered - be all over your financial shit. Protect yourselves. ^

[Tuesday Afternoon]

9. who is arguing? I am asking questions is all.

is it smart finances to marry a hit man? a drug dealer? a loan shark?

I am not judging anything.

I am just asking questions.

Trying to understand how people think/feel.

Thank you for going down this road with me.

I think all this is very interesting.

On edit: I am not sure I implied, so much as you inferred but, I am willing to concede that point.

[JustAnotherGen]

10. No - just hoping Iiiiiiiiiiiiiii wasn't coming across as argumentative

We get enough shit in GD - I don't do that in AA, HOF, etc. etc.

Now is it smart finances to marry one of those folks? Or moral?

Hard to say until one has been in that position or raised in a sub culture of America that says, "That's okay."

I'd rather be married to a pot dealer than a Hedge Fund manager. What he does makes him 'better than' the Hedge Fund dealer in my book!

[Tuesday Afternoon]

11. and yet the hedge fund manager is a legal and well respected position in society =

I find it all odd -

What today's society condones and condemns.

Maybe, it is me that is the odd one.



PS: If I wanted to argue I would have posted this in GD
But, one thing, you are right in that I am taking it from a woman's angle/perspective so I thought HoF would suffice.
Long time ago I would have posed the question in the Philosophy Group but, that was then. This is now.

[JustAnotherGen]

12. If you are odd

Then move over and let me sit next to you!

[Tuesday Afternoon]

13. any time, JAG ... plenty of room

[MadrasT]

14. I can't even get that far.

I feel like I have a moral obligation to support myself.

I have never been dependent on another person for support (since becoming an adult).

If I were, I would absolutely have to be OK with how the money was earned. No drugs. Nothing illegal. And nothing else I view as morally reprehensible.

But I can't get past "I am morally obligated to support myself" so it has never actually entered into the picture.

I wouldn't even let my (former) husband grow a couple marijuana plants in the basement for his own consumption. No way. No how. Not if it's illegal, not under my roof.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

15. thank you for the reply. question =

anything that is illegal is ergo also immoral in your book? the immoral is inherent in the illegal of it all ?

Am I understanding you correctly?

[MadrasT]

24. No, not at all. Illegal and immoral are unrelated.

If it is immoral, it is not OK with me, even if it is legal. (Of course that is according to my own definition of "immoral".)

If it is something I think is moral, and it is illegal, then I have to consider both the risk of getting caught, and the consequences of getting caught. If I am OK with bearing the consequences of getting caught/prosecuted/convicted, then I might be OK with doing something that I think is moral, but is illegal according to where I live.

Is the consequence for the illegal activity a $500 fine and a misdemeanor? With low risk of getting caught? Maybe that's OK, and I will assume the risk and do the illegal thing (if I think it is moral.)

Is the consequence for the illegal activity possibly losing my home, a felony, and jail time? In that case, I am unlikely to think that engaging in the illegal activity is OK (even if I think it is moral).

In my prior example: I don't think growing pot in the basement for your own amusement and use is immoral. However, I was unwilling to assume the risk of the consequences of getting caught, in a home with my name on the deed.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

26. understood - makes sense. thanks

sorry so long to reply. personal issues are keeping my posting sporadic at best.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

16. wow

This is a question that is part of a bigger question. How carefully do you need to look at entities with which you have financial dealings?

To answer your direct question, IMHO, to a degree. If your spouse is a cop and takes a few minor illicit perks, are you obligated to question him/her on it and demand accountability... not really. If your spouse is very secretive, has no regular pay check (maybe kills for a living) should you be asking questions... sure.

I believe we are each responsible for what we know directly. Would it be wrong if your company invested your pension in an instrument that was composed of various mutual funds some of which owned shares of Halliburton? Should you opt out of the plan if you discover this?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

17. but, Leonard! How will we raise the children? Indeed, a bigger question has been posed -

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

18. Now that the Higgs Boson has been found...

...we can hope this hypothetical question can be answered by making certain assumptions about the nature of the graviton and the consequent implications but, personally, I don't care if Taco Bell uses Soylent Green.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

19. It is Olive Garden one must worry about ...

after all they do have that odd shade of green

especially the one on Times Square

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

20. I plan to...

...stockpile Worcestershire and Velveeta. I can eat dirt and bark with those toppings.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

21. For me, it is Texas Pete and Butter

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

22. You could make some special wings that way

[Tuesday Afternoon]

23. Frank or Pete ... is there any difference between the two?

I mean, really

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

29. Since I'm always Frank and Earnest with women...

...in NYC I'm Frank and in Chicago I'm Earnest, I'll say no difference.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

30. LOL ...

Frank's vs Texas Pete ... you decide !!

I love Texas Pete but, I use Frank's when I make my wings

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

31. I find the rooster always wakes me up

* * *

[MadrasT]

25. Yes I agree.

It bugs the crap out of me when one of my supposedly aware, conscious, liberal friends banks with Bank of America, for example. (Why in the WORLD would you not switch to a local credit union instead of continuing to support the bankster mob?)

Or when they buy cheap shit made overseas (in possibly dire conditions) without a second thought, and offer forth some lame justification for it.

I recognize that it can get sticky though. And it's usually easier to sit around "shoulding" on other people than it is to make changes ourselves.

[ismnotwasm]

27. I went through a time where I was clueless

I was poor, if you got money, you spent it. I passed this on to my children-- all of whom said 'fuck that' and learned to manage money on their own.

So morally I would say yes given the situation. As the primary income earner, I let my husband manage the bills. He has MS and can't work. He's gotten better over time-- but he grew up in dire poverty, he had to learn on his own as well.

I guess it's situational

[Tuesday Afternoon]

28. I think it is very much situational and varies from person to person and within each household.

I think it makes a difference if there is only one wage earner in the family and what they do for a living could cause disagreements if the spouses have different values/ethics.