The tone argument and issues other than feminism

[gollygee]

I've been really interested to watch the tone argument play out in this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5534368

It's funny how when it isn't about feminism, the same people who throw out the tone argument are the ones having it used against them. I don't really have anything else to say, just that I find the responses to complaints about tone interesting when I think about this in a more big picture way - about how the tone argument is used in general and not just about the issue of vaccinations.

I should post this in the African American group too, because they also get slammed about their tone, specifically that "privilege" is not a helpful way of wording things and they should only talk about racism in a way that makes white people feel good.

(Discloser: my kids are fully vaccinated.)

[seabeyond]

1. i did not read that thread. i did find the thread about smoking mom with a fetus interesting.

the number of men that walked into the thread to defend the "child" at the expense of a womans bodily right was very predictable. men that have never stood for a womans right is now all that concerned about the fetus, totally ignoring the issue woman after woman brought up, about using a criminal term addressing a potential harm to a fetus.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

3. I still think that was deliberate.

There is no way a progressive could be that clueless about the implications of calling smoking while pregnant 'child abuse', and the continued push from the right to declare women 'rightless' 'incubators' for fetuses.

[seabeyond]

4. it is even more clear who stepped in to champion the fetus. why it would be allowed, is anti smokin

trumps womens issues.

ahhhhh. that consistent message. and always.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

9. I don't know that it's even about the smoking.

The focus is always on the 'welfare of the fetus'. They'd say the same about drinking, drugs, probably even engaging in 'risky' activities like rock climbing or hang gliding if they could. It's always the religious mania that puts the life and birth of the fetus above the mother. Focus on Jesus, not Mary, as it were. Take away from the the female-procreation-centered religions and push the male-centered replacement religion, and its host of male-dominant restrictions to keep women less than fully human, with their own free will.

[seabeyond]

11. of course. that being said, anti smoking holds a badge of honor in hysteria. nt

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

2. Thanks for posting that link.

Last edited Mon Sep 15, 2014, 10:39 AM - Edit history (1)

I went in there and applauded the pushback on the tone and call to 'shame and shun' as being unhelpful in the fight to get kids vaccinated. All that would do is cause such parents to dig in their heels and proclaim that they're being persecuted.

(Edited to avoid what some said 'borders on a call-out'.)

[seabeyond]

5. as far as that goes... any parent, that has look at their two yr old child, in the middle of the

night, adopt autistic behavior 12 hours after a series of two yr old shot.... is gonna ask. what? what caused this.

over the years, fuck almost two decades watching my son, teaching, researching, guiding..... i have come to a lot of thought about our environment effecting our children.

i read the one poster that told his story with an autistic son.

i got all the kids the many many vaccinations. ones that became new laws that they fell into. vaccinations before they had the information of them and any issues with them today and in the future for our kids.

i did all that.

and STILL, as a parent, looking at my child and his behavior at midnight, when i went in for the last check in.... seeing him exhibit autistic behavior, it is something a parent does not forget, nor is it something a parent easily dismisses. watching a lifetime of struggle.

i have no idea what kuska was saying. i have no interest listening to anyone, who was not in that bedroom in the middle of the night tell me......

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

6. It's always possible somebody screwed up

while making that specific batch of medicine. Something fell or was knocked into the mix, something infected got in somehow. Or maybe the nurse or doctor who administered it screwed up somehow and the needle wasn't sterile.

Plants that make meds and people who administer them are not always as completely safe as they should be. When we speak about 'safety' in medicine (or food, for that matter) we're talking in statistical terms. But statistics don't tell you that things don't happen, they just tell you how often or how rarely they do happen. So while such vaccinations might be safe for the overwhelming majority of kids, and 'protect the herd', there's always some tiny chance that something went wrong somewhere along the line. And when you get to be the one who winds up hurt, statistics about overall safety are no comfort at all. You have my sympathy for your struggles, and that of your child.

[seabeyond]

13. i am not a dummy, i do not see how anything i have said would allow you to believe that. i have had

about two decades studying this issue.

blunt point.

when a parent is watching a toddler exhibit new behavior, that mimics autism, we are not assured that STATICALLY it works well for so many. we are looking at an affected child.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

18. Sorry if I came off as condescending.

I'm well aware you're not a dummy, and I'm sure you considered the same things over time.

[seabeyond]

19. you did sound condescending. thank you for acknowledging. nt

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

21. It's my own personal tone problem.

The style in which I tend to write (and speak) always seems to fall into a sort of 'lecture' rhythm, and I have to spend a lot more conscious work on not sounding that way.

[seabeyond]

23. for me? it was more the ignoring and dismissing what i was actually saying.

discussing something that i did not address, that is kinda obvious. your words. not your tone.

see why i am so bothersome? grinnin' here, in the playing of discussing.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

25. I recall we've had a similar discussion before.

I don't think that I'm 'ignoring and dismissing' what you're actually saying. I'm reading it, but not apparently interpreting it in the way you meant it. And so I respond in a way that you, in turn, interpret as me 'ignoring and dismissing' what you wrote.

So I'll take the blame for failing to understand your communication towards me, but I'll disagree that it a matter of intent to merely ignore and dismiss what you're saying. I am indeed trying to consider what I think you're saying, and respond, even if some of my responses might seem tangential. I often don't feel that a response is needed to things in which we seem to be in agreement, which is why I then 'swing to one side or another' of what you actually said.

[seabeyond]

26. gotcha. thanks. nt

[Tuesday Afternoon]

8. sea,

caution, please ...

perhaps may want to delete the name and use a more ambiguous term ....

Believe me, I know how stupid I sound.

[seabeyond]

16. really? and who would have thought, seeing as i have not read the OP, do not care about the OP,

did not bring up the OPs creator.

i hear ya.

let them kick me off....

a mention about community standard. those of us that walk in integrity see community standard as meaning something positive. the reality of the words are..... if we can have a vast majority of silent on our board, and they will influence that community to republican, rw, religious zealots mentality. that would still be our community standard. i hardly take pride in our community standard demand.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

20. understood.

and believe me when I say ...

I take no pride when asking for caution. It doesn't matter whether You take yourself out or, They take you out,

out you will be and, the silence is deafening around here.

That is all.

[seabeyond]

22. three women on the board... silenced. regularly. and others, just on the edge of the cliff. nt

[Tuesday Afternoon]

24. the abyss ...

I stand here.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

7. Please be careful what and how you post in here

This group is under a microscope and your post borders on a call out.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

12. You think I should pull the name so as not to damage the group?

I'm not worried about my post personally drawing a hide, it would be my first, so no biggie. But I'd rather not fan the flames against the group.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

14. for both reasons that you stated, yes - I would reword.

Believe me Hides add up quickly once you are a target.

[kcr]

10. I'm not surprised

Tone argument is just another way to shut down discourse, and people often don't like to take what they dish out.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

15. Exactly = They can dish it out but, they can't take it.

and since they come from that pedestal of privilege, they don't think they should Have To Take It.

and so, we ride the merry-go-round.

[Sheldon Cooper]

17. I've often had a chuckle at some of our most virulent anti-women posters here.

They're all about dismissing us and our concerns, but boy do they scream when it's their particular ox being gored. The tone argument, indeed.

The only comment I would make with regard to the anti-vax thread is that people choose to be anti-vax. It's not an inherent condition, whereas people do not choose to be female, or AA, or gay, or most any other oppressed minority. So, while being nasty to anti-vaxxers is rude, I find it more rude to be nasty to people who did not choose their particular situation.

[ismnotwasm]

27. I see at least three posts that would have been hidden if someone 'else'

Had said them.

And one so scientifically incorrect it almost makes me want to participate. Almost

But, yes, the tone argument is a common 'shut up ' tactic