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[JTFrog]

This message was self-deleted by its author (JTFrog) on Sun Jul 1, 2012, 06:53 AM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[seabeyond]

1. i may use your article. i have learned so much more, lol, though that is a good start

i am sorry to see you go. that is the whole purpose of the new du3 with absolutely no standards or rules. i weigh should i, shouldnt i. it bottom lines to that is the goal and intent of the handful.

love you.

i hope we see you again

i appreciate everything you bring to the forum.

i am sorry to see you go. i do understand.

[DURHAM D]

2. Completely agree.

I think many will join you. Why pay to be abused?

[hlthe2b]

5. Perhaps it is time for a "we the undersigned" letter/petition to Skinner?

[DURHAM D]

7. Seems to me WE should be the recipients of a petition from the Admin.

If they want our money they need to fix the problem they have created.

[laconicsax]

61. Skinner is part of the problem.

I'm sure he means well, but he simply doesn't get it. You can tell that he lurks in the main forums and probably reads the same misogynist shit we do, but doesn't confront or enforce the TOS.

The writing's been on the wall since January:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/124030452

Perhaps ironically, if in this case I do not feel comfortable as a man passing judgment on this woman, I know I will be labeled a sexist who permits misogyny on my website.

But on the other hand, a man in a position of power passing judgment on a woman whom he does not know or understand feels more like sexism to me.

[seabeyond]

62. There were a number of people -- including some women --

seeing how i have now seen the c word make it past jury FIVE times, i would suggest some of those assumptions he made is wrong.

and those are only the times i have seen them pass. i am sure there is more i do not see.

btw. i did not want the woman banned, either. but, i wanted a strong declaration from skinner, and we did not get that either. that was when i let it all go, as far as expectation.

[BlueIris]

177. Skinner no longer cares about the content on this site.

It's one reason I put him on Ignore a while back. Since he abdicated responsibility for keeping offensive content off the boards, I haven't wanted to read a damn thing he says since. (Sadly, I've had a few Skinner OPs pop up around here anyway; maybe the Ignore function doesn't apply to him.)

[hlthe2b]

3. PLEASE make this a temporary absence.

I can't imagine anyone here does not truly understand.... Give yourself a break and perhaps vow just to lurk when you want to return--in areas you know are "friendly"...

We surely don't want to lose you, JTFrog. All the best....

[MattBaggins]

4. I can not blame you

I have been a DUer since 2001and in all that time have only one person on my ignore list yet the porn threads are pretty darn close to getting me to put dozens of names on that list in one fell swoop. Those threads brought out a lot of disgusting men on DU and showed their true colors.

[DURHAM D]

6. And also illustrated

that the jury system, the impotent host system and the rarely present owners is not working.

[Little Star]

12. The TOS just needs to be firmed up and all this crap would stop. sigh

[DURHAM D]

15. I agree the TOS needs to be firmed up but

just as importantly the Hosts need to be allowed to manage some aspect of a TOS that strongly enforces zero tolerance for bigotry.

[Little Star]

18. That would be nice but host's don't even have that...

mandate regarding racism/LGBT bigotry. So I doubt we'll ever see that as part of our hosting responsibility.

If there was a strong TOS at least we would have equal tools to deal with sexism. sigh

[DURHAM D]

20. I was only a GD host a couple of days before resigning

so how was the LGBT/racism zero tolerance policy used (as a tool) by the big forum hosts?

The GD threads only go back about 8 or 9 days and I saw no example of its use by hosts during that period. You have been a Host over 30 days. Have you ever seen it used to lock a thread?

[boston bean]

23. Hosts can't lock for TOS

But there is something to be said about having misogyny and sexism explicitly spelled out in TOS.

I don't think "gender" or "gender identity" covers. Misogyny and Sexism are missing.

Here is the TOS for relating to bigotry:

No bigoted hate speech.
Do not post bigotry based on someone's race or ethnic origin, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, religion or lack thereof, disability, or other comparable personal characteristic. To be clear: This includes any post which states opposition to full equal rights for gays and lesbians; it also includes any post asserting disloyalty by Jewish Americans, claiming nefarious influence by Jews/Zionists/Israel, advocating the destruction of the state of Israel, or arguing that Holocaust deniers are just misunderstood. In determining what constitutes bigotry, please be aware that we cannot know what is in anyone's heart, and we will give members the benefit of the doubt, when — and only when — such doubt exists.

[DURHAM D]

25. I know hosts can't lock for TOS

I am asking a different question.

[boston bean]

29. I thought I was answering, let me explain

It does nothing for hosts. Hosts can't lock for those reasons.

However the community may think twice about posting misogynistic and sexist posts if it were spelled out more clearly in TOS. And then admin will PPR posters who are doing this. Not just waiting until it falls into homophobia, which it eventually does, but until then, nothing gets done.

Hope that answers it, or I am completely lost on what you are asking....

[DURHAM D]

32. I understand all of that and more bb.

I am suggesting a change. See my respond to TBF. I have been talking about the TOS non enforcement capacity for some time now.

[boston bean]

33. I think I would like to see that as well. The hosts hands are tied.

I don't know why hosts can't at the very least lock TOS violations.

Admin can decide whether to PPR. I agree.

[Little Star]

42. There is no tool available to hosts but..

LGBT/racism zero tolerance policy as a TOS violation tool can be used by the admins and it is. People get banned for violating the TOS about racism/LGBT.

The issue of sexism has no such tool, because it was never written into the TOS as explicit as were racism/LGBT violations.

[TBF]

28. The TOS does not allow misogyny

and I can tell you I have taken a beating at least once (on MIRT) for actually TS'ing someone on that (Skinner upheld). It was during the first term - not recently. I was told "oh but what if their other posts are ok" ... Sure, that excuses it. And of course it was a male doing the bashing.

The TOS is not the problem - it is the interpretation by juries, MIRT and so forth.

I have had this problem on other leftist boards as well.

[DURHAM D]

31. MIRT has no power to enforce the TOS.

Hosts have no power to enforce the TOS.

Jury members don't even know what is in the TOS.

Therefore, the only people who can enforce the TOS are three busy guys who are often not present.

The only way to protect minority interests in the forums is to give the forum Hosts some new directives.

[TBF]

43. We do under 100 -

you'll see sometimes TOS violations are cited. I've PPR'ed for clear misogyny twice and I've put it in the reason for PPR - and both were under 50 post members. But I'm very careful now to get some consensus votes and will sometimes look for other reasons to PPR so I don't even have to address that issue. Because it is an issue here and most of the offenders are over 100 posts - and then it gets much harder.

[seabeyond]

47. will sometimes look for other reasons to PPR so I don't even have to address that issue.

wow. i get it, but that says so very much, so clearly. wow.

[Little Star]

52. exactly.

[DURHAM D]

57. I sent you a PM

[Violet_Crumble]

169. About TOS violations being overlooked at DU. It's nothing new...

Back at the start of DU3 when Meta hadn't yet turned into something like a high school playground, I posted my concerns about how the TOS was strong regarding some bigotry and not others. I was talking about bigotry against Muslims, but from what I've been seeing at DU lately, misogyny is very similar in the way its overlooked at times as Islamophobia.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/124019934

The TOS not only needs to be strengthened, but the admin need to enforce it from a position where misogyny and Islamophobia are every bit as unwelcome at DU as antisemitism and homophobia.

[laconicsax]

176. +1000

The zero-tolerance approach we were promised isn't even close.

Long-time bigots are still given more leeway and an endless benefit of the doubt.

I've TOS alerted on statements which, were "women" replaced with "LGBTQIers," would result in an almost immediate PPR only to have nothing come of the alert.

Hell, I've TOS alerted on racist posts only to get a 3-3 vote and nothing come of it.

[Scout]

178. i agree with you

but i don't think it will ever happen here.

iverglas was right. skinner's got his little cash cow, and now give's not one shit.

[seabeyond]

179. reality is, sitting up a forum to allow attack, mob call out has sit the environment up

for larger groups to ruin reputations and create an environment of hostility. it is no different than that repug continuous lies to create a nontruth truth about the democrats that the non participants hear repeatedly to end up giving to the dems and voting repug.

my greatest disappointment is that this was allowed to manifest on the new du when in the past du uniquely worked to not allow that to happen with its control.

this new forum is a perfect sit up for mob rule. all in the name of progressive.

[Little Star]

45. I agree that the TOS can be interpreted that way but..

LGBT/racist TOS violations are not left up to interpretation and sexism/misogyny should not be left up to interpretation either.

The TOS is not written specific enough when it comes to sexism/misogyny.

[seabeyond]

180. but then

on the other hand, if mirt has members that have a real hate for a group and a new member comes to du, not really disruptive but certainly and clearly favoring a group, then is there an ability within mirt to tos that newbie and all other newbies that may not favor their position.

i am saying, what kind of controls are there to to have controls on mirt not to allow the abuse of tos'ing new members? one hidden post allows mirt to say the person is a disruptor? i well know that a hidden post does not mean disrupting. if the subject is sexism, it is likely to go thru even if it is clear as day. the same works the opposite way. if a member is arguing sexism, then it is likely to be hidden even if there is nothing that breaks community standards.

[MadrasT]

181. That is a very good point.

There are clearly some members of MIRT who are hostile to HoF and some of the principles and beliefs we share here.

Any new member who posted in this group (or anywhere on DU) speaking up about sexism, misogyny, or god forbid, pornography or prostitution, could get TS'd as a "disruptor".

Harder to get rid of long terms allies, but new allies can be crushed by MIRT.

[Scout]

183. volunteer for MIR team! n/t

[MadrasT]

186. The whole thing...

...just doesn't register high enough on my Give-A-Fuck meter.

[Scout]

187. nothing wrong with that. n/t

[Scout]

182. MIRT does need consensus of more than one member before a PPR occurs.

there is discussion before a PPR.

however it is just a consensus, there is no hard and fast rule as to how many members MUST agree with the PPR. members are free to post disagreement with other MIRT members about whether or not to PPR.

but it's true, if you get "enough" MIRT members to agree then new members can be PPR'd ... Skinner can overturn a MIRT PPR, if he sees fit to do so.

[boston bean]

188. Was there consensus with Many Shades of?

And what was the reasoning.

I'm just curious. Not saying whether it was wrong or not. Just don't have enough info.

[TBF]

189. It's really open under 100 and a hidden post is not needed -

we have pretty free reign with newbies. BUT, we do pretty much hold to acting by consensus - we discuss nearly all of them unless someone just happens on a obvious troll or spammer and PPR's quickly. If people don't agree we hold off. That is how some of the more polite concern trolls get through. If they are polite and not too crazy we may not have consensus because they look like moderates. When they have 1000 posts and start spouting off it takes hidden posts and normally admin involvement to PPR at that point.

It works in reverse too - just as we do not need a hidden post we are not required to PPR when folks have hidden posts. There have been numerous times when we have simply disagreed with the juries and ignore them.

The control is always the admins - they can over-rule anything we do at any time - and have done so.

I'd encourage you to try serving on MIRT and see what you think. I'm pretty impressed with it overall, but I'm biased since I've been on since the start. I will be off when the next crew comes in (in a couple weeks) and it will be interesting for me to view it just as a member.

[RegieRocker]

34. The TOS (bigotry) is not enforced.

Constantly people of different ethnicity are slandered and ridiculed. That is the problem.

[DURHAM D]

35. I agree.

The juries don't know they are supposed to remove it and the Admin are never here. Given there is nothing/no one in between three bigoted jury members and the three top guys minority interests are simply not protected on this website.

[Little Star]

48. How would we even know how many instances bigotry is TOS alerted on?...

I'm just suggesting that maybe we, the community, are not TOS alerting every time it's needed. Maybe it's not just "not being enforced"? There is no way for us to evaluate that is there?

[seabeyond]

50. i seldom hit tos because the name who hits tos appears to mirt. that would cause me only more

problems.

[Little Star]

53. ditto. I think there are some issues...

with MIRT. I don't put much faith in it because it is too clicky. I won't sign up for it either because that would be like putting a bullseye on your back, imho. It gets bad enough in F&H group and at least in there it's not overly clicky.

[DURHAM D]

68. MIRT is not really clicky.

You should sign up if you don't mind committee work. If you would prefer to function as an outliar and not a member of a team then it would not work for you but we rarely have problems talking things out and coming to consensus. Plus the fact that the members cycle off keeps anyone from taking over and half of the old team returns with each new batch providing some stability and institutional memory.

[Little Star]

72. Thank you. This is really good to hear.

[TBF]

79. So far I don't see it that way -

some people think alike and tend to come to the same answers on issues, but it seems to be pretty collegial for the most part. Occasionally folks have disagreements but that is going to happen anywhere. I do like the idea of "rotating MIRT" - that way you get fresh folks and not just the same mods for decades. Also it allows for more people to participate. I don't know if folks even know who is on MIRT. I have had juries refuse to hide posts I've alerted on, and I've even had 2 posts hidden in the 6 months, but maybe I was wrong those times. I like to think I'm always right but that may not be the case

I think we do have a lot of fair folks on this site, but I seem to lock horns with folks in the Gungeon for some reason so I've started putting them on ignore rather than engage.

[DURHAM D]

63. TOS alerts do not come to MIRT unless the jury hides the post.

The name of the Alerter (or TOS checker) is not visible to MIRT. So don't worry about MIRT seeing your name - it does not happen.

[seabeyond]

65. thank you very much for that much needed, really.... information

so you are saying if i alert and hit tos, and the post is hid, my name will NOT show up for mirt to see?

that is important. thank you. even with valid tos, i have not hit tos cause i thought my name would show, like if i did SOP alert.

[TBF]

80. That's correct - we can't see who alerts

and we can't see who is on the jury.

[seabeyond]

90. good to know. thanks. love me some confirmation, lol

i dont alert that often and rarely see the need for tos

[DURHAM D]

71. Only the Admin know when TOS is alerted on.

MIRT does not know.

[Violet_Crumble]

170. Aren't all the alerts that come through to the MIRT TOS alerts?

Alerts that don't have TOS selected on them don't go to the MIRT or the admin. So when a hidden post thingy turns up in the inboxes of the MIRT, the alerter thought that the post was a TOS violation.

If people think it's bad now when it comes to the acceptance of misogyny, wait till the MIRT has a term or two with a fair few DUers who like to chortle that there's no misogyny at DU, and anyone who thinks porn should be legal, but also recognises the damage it does to individuals and society in general, is a *RADFEM EXTREMIST!!!!*. That, coupled with what appears to be inertia on the part of admin when it comes to addressing misogyny, is going to make DU suck more than anything else could. I don't know who made the suggestion, or which group or forum it was made in, but given that there's three male admin, maybe they need to get some sort of extra person on who is sensitive to women's issues. And given the endless bickering and fighting that some feminists at DU aim at other DU feminists, it would be almost impossible to find someone to fill that role that all DU feminists would be happy with...

[DURHAM D]

172. Good catch.

I was responding to Little Star's question but I should have made it clear that MIRT does not receive alerts on a post if the TOS is checked but the jury does not hide the post but all notices that MIRT does receive on hidden posts are because the TOS was checked.

I would guess that at this point the TOS is probably being checked on more and more alerts as fewer and fewer members have faith in the jury system, assume it won't be hidden, and want to get it upstairs to the Admin, our court of last resort.

[Violet_Crumble]

175. The whole TOS thing confused me for a long time...

It only started to connect for me when I TOS alerted on a post that made a really revolting suggestion about Muslim corpses and pigs blood, and a jury voted to let it stand, but in the time it took me to look at the jury commments and go 'WTF???', Skinner had stepped in and deleted the post and nuked the longterm DUer responsible. That's when I realised the admin see the TOS alerts that don't get hidden. The whole system, at least for me, is unneccessarily complicated and unwieldy..

[boston bean]

8. The Hosts have received an SOP violation Alert - Will not be Locking

You have received this Alert message because you are currently a Host of the group: History of Feminism.

ALERTED DISCUSSION THREAD

-- Author: JTFrog
-- Title: What I've learned on DU and why I'm leaving.
-- Location: History of Feminism
-- Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012, 08:13 AM
-- Link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/12555184

ALERT INFORMATION

-- Sent by: Whisp
-- Reason: This discussion thread violates the Statement of Purpose for this forum.
-- Alerter's comments: Does this thread deserve to live? Outright divisive lies and exaggerations painting all who aren't on their side as oppressors.

STATEMENT OF PURPOSE: History of Feminism

The History of Feminism group serves as a safe haven to discuss, and learn the history of feminism. Apply the lessons of historical and modern day feminist struggles to current issues and events that impact women. This group will also serve as safe haven for women (and supporters of feminism) to openly and honestly discuss and learn how the patriarchy affects women individually and collectively.

ABOUT THIS ALERT

As a forum Host it is your duty to ensure that threads meet the forum's Statement of Purpose. You are empowered to lock threads which you believe do not meet the Statement of Purpose.

You should only review the thread's originating post (otherwise known as the OP). You are not required to review the replies.

If you believe the OP is off-topic for the forum and/or does not meet the forum's Statement of Purpose, you should lock the thread by clicking the "Super powers" link at the bottom left corner of the OP and selecting the option "Lock thread (Reason: Violates this forum's Statement of Purpose)."

If you choose to lock the thread, a basic explanation -- including your username -- will be pasted automatically into the OP. If you wish to provide a more detailed explanation, you should post your explanation as a reply to the OP before you lock the thread.

The person who posted the OP is permitted to appeal your decision directly via DU Mail. If an appeal is sent, it is your responsibility to consider the merits of the appeal, and decide whether the thread should remain locked. If you decide to unlock it, you can do so by clicking the "Super powers" link on the post.

Only you (or a DU Administrator) will be able to unlock the thread once you have locked it.

Thank you for serving as a Host of the Soapbox forum.

This thread fits in fine, we will not be locking.

P.S. Whisp has been blocked from HOF, for shit stirring and causing trouble.

[hlthe2b]

9. Absolutely....

[seabeyond]

11. thank you BB and hlthe2b. nt

[LiberalLoner]

21. +1

[sufrommich]

14. Good lord. nt

[The Doctor.]

40. Fascinating.

[seabeyond]

41. good, i am glad to see that you recognize the kind of issues we are dealing with.

thank you for your support.

appreciate.

[ManyShadesOf]

54. don't the people

who are most aggressive in this know they are making themselves look like "oppressors." And doing "Outright divisive lies and exaggerations painting all who aren't on their side as" unworthy of having threads "deserve to live".

btw this thread perfectly fits the TOS "This group will also serve as safe haven for women (and supporters of feminism) to openly and honestly discuss and learn how the patriarchy affects women individually and collectively."

[seabeyond]

58. heads up, fits the SOP. and you are right there. clever you. it is ALL about the patriarchy and

how we in real life have to deal with it. it really is a perfect example of what we have been saying repeatedly.

very good.

i have noticed that little consistency often, thru out this and am in wonder that doesnt click for some

[Texasgal]

70. Seriously?

there is no way on hell I'd go to her group to post or alert! Jaysus, this has become so mean and vindictive now... it's no longer people disagreeing with each other.

I wonder what exactly whisp wants... does she want us gone? I mean, I just don't get it.

[DURHAM D]

73. Is Whisp a she?

[Texasgal]

75. I don't know..

[laconicsax]

82. I remember reading that Whisp is a "he."

[DURHAM D]

89. That is what I sort of vaguely recalled as well.

[RC]

101. There is a place in the Profile for that information

If only people would at least fill in that part and location, it would save a lot of confusion and conjecture. And save countless post inquiring about it.

[Texasgal]

107. I don't care that this poster

is male or female, I'm just astounded that he/she sent the alert! And don't look now, a thread in Meta about it!

Nobody asked for a fucking birth certificate. Jaysus. I assumed this person was a female. Big whoop.

*not directed to you RC, just blowing off steam.

[DURHAM D]

120. I assume you are aware that Whisp is a host in the Feminist Group.

That is what makes it so interesting.

[Texasgal]

128. I knew that he/she

was a host. I honestly don't care. It's their group to do what they want with. None of my business. Wish they ( generic) would stay out of ours.

[DURHAM D]

130. I was actually commenting to RC

as I felt certain you already knew. I really am puzzled by Whisp's activities.

[RC]

132. Wasn't even aware of where I was at. If I had noticed, I would not have spoke up.

That is what I get for blindly following links on DU. :::slinks toward the door:::

[seabeyond]

134. actually, i thought the reasoning refreshing. i was quite impressed with your post and agree

it would alievate question and confusion but certainly a choice and i respect that.

[MadrasT]

136. Whisp alerted on that?

[Scout]

141. the swarm is starting to get desperate. n/t

[Occulus]

154. Starting?

[MadrasT]

155. They've kicked it up a couple notches.

It's more akin to pathological obsession at this point.

[Violet_Crumble]

171. I've got a question for you, Whisp...

I'm aware that you can't answer it here, nor can I ask it in the group yr a Host of because I'm not going to do what you did here, and attempt to disrupt another group. I kind of doubt you'd be interested in giving any sort of civil response anyway, but I'll still ask just in case you do decide to give a response that's devoid of attacks (I'm contactable by PM and do check in on yr group every now and again as I don't feel the same intense hatred towards it that you feel towards this one). Something's been bothering me for a while when I've seen yr constant attacks in Meta on this group and anyone who dares to post in it. How is what yr doing helping feminists at DU? See, I'm only reasonably new to this whole feminism thing, but it comes across very clearly to me that what yr posting in Meta is being really divisive. I read a thread in Meta where you'd 'questioned' whether the Hosts of this group were *RADFEMS* (from what I've read they're people who tend to be transphobic, hate parents, think women should be forced to go out and have a career whether they like it or not, and hate any expression of sexuality, because that's like so oppressive to women). For someone who takes such an intense interest in this group, you seem to not have noticed that none of the three of us are anything like that, even though we've all been clear about our opinions. I'm apparently a third-wave feminist, and a pretty bland one at that with pretty mainstream views. Are you suspecting that all third-wave feminists like me are *RADFEMS*? That's just bizarre. That radfem accusation was used in an OP in GD to try to attack feminism in general. I'm pretty sure I saw a post from you at the time expressing issues with the OP, but now here you are doing something very similar. I don't get why yr so full of rage and hatred towards anyone who posts in this group, nor why you've said some things that are blatantly untrue about this group and the reason why folk like me left the original group and refused to return...

btw, you should be careful when trawling groups you clearly hate for posts to send to a jury. Good rule of thumb. If the post is an OP, be VERY, VERY careful to not hit SOP alert, because then it doesn't go to a jury. It goes to the Hosts, who then wonder to themselves why someone who claims to be a feminist would send an alert like that. Seriously. You don't think there's a problem with misoygyny at DU?

Finally, I suggest you listen to what you had to say about anyone who dared to criticise what was posted in the Men's Group (just so you don't get what I think wrong, I have no complaints about, nor any particular interest in what's posted there). This time just change 'Men's group' to 'History of Feminism' and even if you don't get the idea, I'm sure others will:

'What puzzles me is if you don't like what goes on in the Men's Group - then why read there?'

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1240&pid=109059

Uh-huh. So, according to you, the men should be immune from people complaining about what they post, but when it comes to complaining about what feminists post, it's a whole different story? Why? That doesn't make any sense...

[Little Star]

10. I hope you are only taking a little leave of absense....

Get some rest and time away and when you are ready we will welcome you back with open arms.

[sufrommich]

13. I'm taking a temporary break too.

The porn threads last night really sickened me. I'm tired of seeing feminist made to feel like villains here, it's insulting as hell. The message is plain and clear"good feminists know their place among the alpha males of DU".

I'll see you all when I come back, you are all great sisters, I love you all!

[seabeyond]

16. "good feminists know their place among the alpha males of DU". ya, but... no alpha male

with what we are seeing. beta, probably omega. which is more than likely the problem.

[Little Star]

17. Get some rest away from this place and..

we'll be here waiting for your return.

[seabeyond]

19. i am going to a book. we have a book club to get all over.

i am staying out of du. i get it.

[Little Star]

51. I am so wound up sea, I can't even concentrate to...

read our book never mind comment about it. I seriously need a chill pill.

I'll hopefully get calmed down enough to participate soon.

I just keep wanting to and forget everything right now. But I'm so wound up I can't!

[seabeyond]

55. yes.

i hear you. and it is such a good book too. but, the continued interuptions is making it difficult. at least, i am not feeling guilty anymore. cause you are in the same boat. but, it is time now for me to put it aside. i am in a good place.

bottom line for me.

fuck it.

[LiberalLoner]

22. I'm sorry but I do completely understand. I've had to take breaks from time to time too.

These threads have upset me very deeply, too.

I don't know how to explain it, but it makes me feel much less safe in the world. It makes me feel like even the people we thought were on our side, really are NOT.

Makes me feel surrounded by misogyny and wondering, how much worse will it get?

Thinking, we won't win the battle to keep birth control and abortion legal, or even keep the right to vote, etc. because no one is fighting for us. Not even our fellow Democrats. A few are, but looking through those threads....

Feeling hopeless I guess.

Is that how you are feeling, too? Angry and hopeless?

Wishing for better days, for all of us.

[seabeyond]

26. " people we thought were on our side, really are NOT." and

"Makes me feel surrounded by misogyny and wondering, how much worse will it get? "

i absolutely feel this way. i have to remind myself it is NOT in my RL. but, it is growing and feeding off itself. it is not a little thing.

[LiberalLoner]

24. Just wanted to say, I love and appreciate all of you here.

I think I'd be losing it way more than I already am, if it weren't for all of you speaking up too.

[seabeyond]

27. this is an obvious wake up call. and too many are hitting the snooze alarm. nt

[CrispyQ]

30. DU3 sucks.

It's meaner & uglier - much like America after the Reagan administration. I've altered how I use DU. I participate less - make more casual comments & fewer commentaries of worth. It's not worth it. Too few really want to debate & too many attempts are fraught with those who just want to disrupt. My least favorite thing about the internet is that bad manners prevail in anonymous environments.

I also don't have time to get involved like I did a few years ago. In posts like the porn threads yesterday, I read the posts that educate & inform, & I skip the trash. Lots of trash yesterday, but some kernels worth taking away, too. Maybe learn to use DU differently? Scan the thread for names of those who you think contribute, & skip the BS. And of course, breaks from the internet are always good!

The commentary you posted is excellent. I wish I had read it when I was in my 20s. It would have shed a light on why I could never reconcile 'nice guys' as nice. I pretty much went for the dorks or shy guys - they felt that girls didn't like them & they didn't put on airs.

[kestrel91316]

36. A link to that crap you're posting would be helpful. Did somebody

post that on DU???

[hlthe2b]

39. Kestrel...

Last edited Wed Jun 20, 2012, 11:48 AM - Edit history (1)

I know you are sincere in asking that... Meta (and more recently, GD) has been full of these specific examples in recent days and weeks, but I hope you will understand that linking a lot of threads will invite those same fights to be continued in here--something we'd really like to avoid. If, you can stomach spending an hour or two going through meta and still don't see what is being referred to, I'd bet there are some here who would gladly pm you some links/examples.

[The Doctor.]

59. The problem with that

is that it is the standard response to any request for evidence of such nastiness and in this specific case 'misogyny'. Ultimately, there are virtually no, if any, examples of people being so rude on DU without winding up banned. I've asked many times for such examples and the response was always some variation of "It's against the rules to post a link.", to which I replied with requests for PM's.

Nothing.

It's simply a fascinating phenomenon. People who wish to feel persecuted absolutely LOVE OPs like this one because it reinforces their perceived victimhood status without the need for pesky things like evidence of victimization. The perception of oneself as a victim (and no, just because one thinks oneself a victim does not mean they are not one) creates a very interesting psychological dynamic of moral empowerment. I'm pretty well acquainted with this through introspection and the subsequent realization that, having been victimized myself, I stand on solid moral ground while those that have deceived me, betrayed me, and robbed myself and my children are loathsome and horrible creatures. In this case, my 'victim status' improves my self-image.

It is no different for anyone else.

An OP like this one reinforces that sense of moral superiority over and above the DU community. Too many people have tied their ego or identity to their sense of moral superiority. So when a group of such people find themselves on a site which is pretty universally friendly to women, LGBT folks, and minorities.... they feel something is missing. Naturally, if the existential support for one's very identity is missing, one goes looking for it. This is why there must be a sense of ubiquitous (if nebulous) and rampant sexism and anti-female sentiment on DU, regardless of whether it exists or not. Finding it merely requires that statements are deliberately taken out of context or assigned unintended implications. It must be felt that nearly all the hosts of DU, and to an extent even the admins, are at least tolerant of this 'sexism' if not in support of it. How else could the allowance of such nastiness be explained?

Voila. We are now morally superior to the entire site. Feels pretty good, but it's best to turn those feelings into vociferous moral outrage. How better to inform the site, the hosts, and even Skinner, Elad, and EarlG of our moral superiority in such a way that they wouldn't dare question it? I know because when I question the brazen accusations of misogyny from DU, the response isn't to provide the avalanche of instances it would take to support such claims... it's more moral outrage. Moral outrage is the bludgeon with which we protect our moral superiority. To even question such moral superiority over DU is met not with sound reason or solid evidence, but more outrage and deliberate misconstruction. I expect as much over just this post.

Now... I'm sure there are isolated instances of meanness on DU which I have little doubt are dealt with properly by hosts and admins, but those do not change the fact that DU is remarkably friendly to women's causes and equality in general. I'm also sure that there are those who, in the face of something that threatens their ego matrix, will deliberately misconstrue, assign intention that do not exist to, and generally attack this post.

But they will not and can not show that DU is deliberately hostile toward women... because it simply isn't.

Also, I'm used to saying things that people find uncomfortable, so I expect and hope that I will wind up on many more ignore lists. I could ask for no greater validation.

I hope this is something you are willing to discuss rationally.

[hlthe2b]

60. No one here wants the meta battleground in here. If you bothered to take any time...

to do as I asked, you would not need to do this--even if you did not agree, you could at least have seen what is being referred to. But, I am asking that you cease with the inflammatory posting and derisive references to this group and its participants. Please take this as a warning.

edit for typos

[The Doctor.]

64. I have nothing bad or 'derisive' to say about this group.

It's a fine group with fine people. It does the group a disservice to propagate the notion that the balance of DU is hostile to women as this will inexorably lead to friction from confirmation bias. I offer introspection and a chance to head off that friction. I get that it will not be universally appreciated, and I am used to hostile reactions to rational observations, but if even one person sees how what I spoke of causes ever greater divisiveness, then it is worth it.

As for my post: I often do not realize what group I'm posting "in" because I simply respond to what I find on TGP. When someone posts a swan-song and there is discussion about it, including people taking exception to broad-brush accusations of DU, I post my observations.

If you want, I'll repost in meta with some changes. Yes, I get we don't want a 'fight' here, but it was my intention to explain why those fights occur. So yes, that would be more appropriate in 'meta', I guess.

If you choose to believe that my observations are somehow hostile (people often confuse objective with hostile), then by all means, ban me from the group.

Because we certainly need more walls on DU.

[boston bean]

69. We are not propagating anything. Either educate yourself

or understand we are not bringing meta threads here to the group.

Ok? There is enough of it out there for you to be able to form an opinion one way or another.

[LiberalLoner]

74. Thank you BB. I found it interesting to learn that this poster has had 6 threads hidden in the

last 90 days.

[The Doctor.]

85. Yes, my pro-puppy kicking posts were certainly my downfall.

[font color=gray]"Ah the simplicity of a black and white, uncomplicated world where things only mean what you want them to."[/font]

[The Doctor.]

76. If we don't want to 'propagate' anything on DU,

then keep swansongs that do in fact propagate divisiveness off of The Greatest Page.

Enough people saw fit to put this OP on The Greatest Page. In doing so, the OP was deliberately subjected to the greater DU community. So IOW: If it gets shoved in the face of the rest of DU, expect people to voice their opinions on it.

Once the balance of DU is banned from this group, I'm sure you'll be able to shove any accusations in the face of the rest of DU without having to worry about uncomfortable responses. Until that unilateral paradise is yours, however, you should expect other DUer's to take exception to what's been pushed on TGP.

[boston bean]

77. Thanks for your very unneeded responses. I take it that will be your last one here?

[The Doctor.]

83. I get that you don't want to hear it.

Just put me on ignore if you don't like what I have to say.

That way we all win.

Bye now.

[boston bean]

87. At least try to educate yourself on the issues before propagating some

inaccuracies.

Ok? that is your responsibility. And from your posting, I thought you didn't like that idea and you were through.

Also, I'll put who I want on ignore and don't need any suggestions from you, thank you..

[The Doctor.]

93. Look, hlthe2b didn't want this.

And I was perfectly fine being done here... but you insist on throwing shit.

I guess that makes it up to me to be the grown-up.

Bye.

[boston bean]

94. Are you done here or not?

[laconicsax]

78. You want the hosts to keep people from reccing threads?

[The Doctor.]

81. Of course not.

Just expect matters subjected to the greater DU community to get more diverse responses than you might expect from the group itself.

[boston bean]

84. That's OK, we don't mind being on the greatest page

[The Doctor.]

86. Good.

Then you don't mind when people question the premise of the OP that makes it there.

I can see we're adults here.

[boston bean]

88. Nope, we don't as long as it's done respectfully

and without accusations.

[The Doctor.]

91. So, it's okay to post accusations,

But not for people to challenge those accusations or make accusations of their own.

Got it.

Are you familiar with the concept of 'hypocrisy'?

[boston bean]

92. Again, go educate yourself as to what we are speaking of

or don't that is your perogative. You've admitted you don't understand, well go and try to understand and maybe we can have a conversation. Every other poster in this thread understands and knows.

We've already told you we are not posting meta links in here. There's a hint for you.. go read META and then come back.... or if you would like there might be someone who would feel like sending you links via pm. However, I don't feel like doing it. I know exactly what we are talking about here.

[laconicsax]

95. Then quit whining about this thread being on the "greatest" page. n/t

[LiberalLoner]

96. Skinner just announced we can trashcan entire groups now (like this one.)

I'm sure there will be lots of people doing that to any feminism group, because, let's face it, misogyny is IN these days, even among Democrats. Oh, heck, maybe it's always been IN.

[laconicsax]

105. I sincerely doubt that any of the people who complain about us will trashcan this group.

If not for our posts, how will they know what they're supposed to be outraged about next?

[seabeyond]

106. +1. i was thinking the same. nt

[LiberalLoner]

108. LOL! I just thought trashcanning us would be the ultimate way of silencing our voices is all.

[boston bean]

109. hell we're to interesting for that!

[seabeyond]

110. a lot of people that have no interest in feminism

but like a particular article will come in here and chat. the others that find us so bothersome are so bored talking behind our back, and it has only been ONE day, that they are now coming INTO our forum to try and start something up. how many threads are going that they can freely say whatever outrageous thing they want and no one is challenging them? but still, that is not good enough. and three in a row come in to cause problems.


says something.

nap time for me....

[LiberalLoner]

113. Yeah, they are itching for a fight with women, itching to "put us in our place" if you know what I

mean. Disgusting if you ask me.

[libodem]

97. Agree

Totally.

[Old and In the Way]

102. Very thoughtful perspective.

Wish I could rec individual comments.

[rrneck]

122. That's very intetesting.

This should be in Meta if you have time to fool with it.

[boston bean]

153. You are not welcome here, with shit stirring

and wanting to bring more HOF shit to Meta.

bye.

[snooper2]

184. LOL, every time I see "HOF" this image comes to mind

[seabeyond]

185. me too. not that particular picture, but that man. nt

[PamKlaus]

195. Is it this one?

[seabeyond]

196. i saw that one the other day. it is a hoot

mesmerizing. no, i just think of the man, no particular pictures.

actually, if anything, it would be the picture of him laying down, drunk, trying to eat a hamburger. that one was sad.

[Violet_Crumble]

173. I'm willing to discuss this rationally with you...

I'm not sure how, if you have read Meta and GD, you think misogyny or attacks on feminists is 'isolated'. Maybe in the same way that when antisemitism happens, it's merely 'isolated'? Tell me what level you think something needs to rise to before it's an issue, and we can go from there...

There's nothing of a moral superiority nature in pointing out that there is bigotry against groups of people. Do you think DU's LGBT community, or Jews and Muslims are being morally superior in pointing out the bigotry aimed against them? If you don't, then why is it a whole different matter when it comes to women?

Having had some experience when it comes to antisemitism and Islamophobia, I' m kind of suspecting that no matter what you get shown when you ask to be shown instances of bigotry against women and feminists at DU, it will be written off by you as being merely 'isolated' and women trying to assert their 'moral superiority'...

Gotta comment on yr last line...

'Also, I'm used to saying things that people find uncomfortable, so I expect and hope that I will wind up on many more ignore lists. I could ask for no greater validation.

Having spent a fair few years at DU in the I/P forum, you'd get on well with past DUers who've expressed the same sentiments and then gone on to express views that people find uncomfortable because, well, there's a fair level of intolerance towards one group of people or another involved...

[The Doctor.]

200. Continue here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1240114945

[LiberalLoner]

37. I am thinking I will only post here, on this forum. I need to make myself not read or respond to

any more threads about porn or other stuff that will trigger me.

I don't feel safe or welcome in the main forums, as a woman.

[seabeyond]

38. I don't feel safe or welcome in the main forums, as a woman.

gotta agree with you, again. but, not as a woman. there are women that are perfectly welcome.

[DURHAM D]

44. Or posters who say they are women...

I have figured out a couple of long time posters that I am certain are not female but it is 2012, the age of the internuts.

[hlthe2b]

46. Hmmm convenient for those to post in opposition to all things feminist and attack DU feminists

under the guise of (and enabled by) claiming to be a woman themselves...? I hadn't wanted to consider that happening, but who is to know if that is what they claim to be? If RWers can come in claiming to be progressives, I suppose it is a logical step for someone who truly detests women and feminists to do something similar.... That is one disturbing thought.

Lest anyone misunderstand my comment, I don't suggest that gender determines ones right to have a viewpoint on women's issues, but to claim falsely to be a female while deriding DU women's views, would be pretty damned despicable.

[seabeyond]

49. verbiage used

i have felt that with a couple posters and the consistent backing of the sexist male or anything sexism.

[seabeyond]

67. yup. i wonder... if it is not the same one for sure, lol. nt

[RainDog]

111. If you wonder if I'm a female

Last edited Fri Jun 22, 2012, 12:35 PM - Edit history (1)

I know Salin in real life. She and I have posted here for a decade. We used to regularly get together before she moved to another city.

I have attended DU meet ups and DUers have stayed at my house. blue-jay and proles united met at my house and got married later.

I attended a meet up when Will Pitt spoke after his first book was published. I have pictures from the meet up.

I attended marches in D.C. and met up with other DUers there.

I attended Keph's funeral - where Skinner spoke. I met Skinner personally, along with about a dozen other DUers.

I know other DUers here, such as Lefty Mom, and her boyfriend, who also posts here, can vouch that she is a female, as can dozens of other DUers who have spent time with her in person.

XemaSab knows Lefty Mom personally as well.

And, once again, you resort to personal attacks rather than acknowledge that others have a different view of issues.

[seabeyond]

114. " If you wonder if I'm a female". this is all i read. i dont care. done. nt

[RainDog]

115. yet you again resort to personal attacks.

as is your pattern of behavior.

[seabeyond]

117. it is a personal attack not to be interested in your gender and not read your post? done.

[seabeyond]

119. geeezus... you are talking about the conversation between liberal and i. no wonder you get NOTHING

correct. not talking about you... k.

now, before you spread i accused you of being some gender you are NOT, i did not accuse you of jack shit.

[RainDog]

125. this is a public forum

you and I have public disagreements and I was providing information because when someone posts something that becomes an opportunity to engage in "McCarthy-like" accusations, anyone can post information.

so, honestly, to claim this is a conversation between the two of you when others have already contributed it bullshit.

I simply stated, for the record, that many people here know me personally.

I said "if" not "you are."

reading comprehension when responding is always useful - or not twisting what someone says - that's useful too.

[RainDog]

118. then whose gender are you and seabeyond and others

trying to call into question?

rather than make such insinuations - either state a name or don't make such a flammable claim.

this sort of behavior undermines women - it's simply not nice.

the assertion (not that you made it, seabeyond did) that anyone who doesn't have the same opinion supports misogyny is also, yet again, a personal attack.

[RainDog]

123. then you're better off to state who that person is

rather than present the opportunity to engage in McCarthyite witch hunting posts.

[LiberalLoner]

124. Well, I shouldn't have mentioned it, you do have a point there.

In fact I will go back and delete that.

[boston bean]

126. That is really rich

The McCarthyite behavior has happened to me, where I have been asked to denounce, by Whisp and others, any innocent association I had with another poster on this board who has been banned.

In fact we've all been tarred and feathered with it. I find the accusation that people in this group are doing this hilarious.

in fact, if I didn't know better, I would think maybe some are experts on derailing for dummies.

[RainDog]

129. thank you for your response

I hope your day improves.

[boston bean]

131. you're very welcome. I hope your day improves as well!

[Old and In the Way]

103. Really?

As an anonymous poster like the rest of us, you don't feel "safe" posting on DU because you're a woman? Or because people aren't afraid to call you on your RW sources/BS and weird, incoherent ramblings that are quite generously populated with the word "fuck" in them?

You crack me up.

[seabeyond]

104. it isnt enough to roam around in gang fashion to insult us thru out du. because we are not out there

allowing you to gang up and insult us, you have to come into our forum now to do it? you are a little man.

dont think it makes you anything, but. go back to your buddies and giggle like a bunch of little boys. the disrespect is clear. we get what men do to women when they get in groups.... yawl are showing a perfect example for du.

[LiberalLoner]

112. Great reply, telling it exactly as it is! Rest assured, we all see the bullies for

exactly what they are.

[Old and In the Way]

135. Ah, the victim card....again.

The fact that I "disrespect" you has precious little to do with your unknowable real sexuality and everything to do with your bizarre, incoherent responses, flavored with the occasional word, "fuck" for added cognitive dissonance.

BTW, Yawl is a type of sailboat (2 masts with a smaller mizzenmast that is aft of the stern post), being a Southerner, shouldn't you be using the "you all" contraction?

[seabeyond]

138. yes. and you are going to teach me manners. it is often i go into a group to purposely disrupt,

insult and call duers names. right.

amazing how and who you zing in to attack. it is also clear that you feel i have a target on my back and it is accepted, on this new du3. you would be surprised how many really find yours and other peoples behavior to be nasty, and are tired of it.

[Old and In the Way]

140. is your Sister of the Perpetually Victimized card a lifetime thing or renewable annually?

You sure are getting your money's worth!

And, if I might ask...where have I called you "names"? I see where you insulted me in the subthread with the "little man" reference, but I fail to see where I've done the same to you. You're good at this, seabeyond!

[sufrommich]

142. I'd say "weird, incoherent ramblings "is an insult ,and how dare you

come into a feminist forum and use language like " Sister of the Perpetually Victimized " . This is a safe haven group and you have no business being here. Get out, and take your friends with you.

[seabeyond]

160. well... woman.

we did talk about how we were each responsible for our own posts,

[Texasgal]

161. I've only a small amount of time left

in this thread before I get locked out!!!

I do own that post, I hope it goes down on my permanent record! LOL!!!

[seabeyond]

162. meh... then you go back to the page turner. i am off to do that myself

[MadrasT]

146. Please take this nonsense out of this group. n/t

[boston bean]

151. You called her a name right here in this reply I am responding to

Sister of the Perpetually Victimized.

That wasn't very kind was it.

[boston bean]

152. little man had nothing on these insults.

bye

[Violet_Crumble]

174. And now yr in Meta trying to make out you were merely here having a civil discussion...

Sorry, but if you turned up in any other safe haven group attacking someone who participates there regularly, do you really think yr so special that the Hosts should ignore the attacks on a member and bow to yr superiority?

You deserved to be blocked, and my suggestion to you is if you want to participate in a safe haven group, try actually discussing the issue (in this case, feminism) rather than attacking another DUer. Because trying to create an alternate version of events when you post in another forum about yr blocking is, well, very lame....

[sufrommich]

190. This guys first post here was mocking Sea for saying

she sometimes feel afraid to post here, for those of you who don't know, Sea has been followed around DU by a very angry poster who says things to her like "You are the saddest excuse for a human being I have ever seen.", and "Gads I wish Skinner would bury you in the same ground as iverglas. I hate few of my fellow human beings but for you I will gladly make an exception.",this Duer also sent her a disturbing email. Many of us told her to contact the admins,but she determined that she didn't think it would do any good because "she's already got a target on her back"


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=268997&sub=trans


He then proceeded to accuse her of "playing the victim card&quot a right wing meme if ever there was one) and being a "Sister of the Perpetually Victimized " (he should send that one to Rush, I'm sure he'd get a kick out of it). I don't know what he's saying in Meta and don't care, but he deserved the block.

[seabeyond]

191. you are correct. it wouldnt take much to notice this. mobbing, is what it is called. but...

when i said i agreed with the poster, it was more not feeling welcome. i didnt think it was necessary to make a distinction there. really, what is someone going to do on the net.... as far as safety. but, the mobbing, which is a concerted effort to single a person out thru continual misrepresentation of silly bullshit certainly has been effective and allowed on du. meta has been used to not only single a person, but to single out a group. it is going on now in meta. not a tough one to understand

[Scout]

192. and a big deal is being made about which forums have how many users blocked, and

how many users have trashed which forums.

of course the more they marvel! at how many have blocked H of F, the number of users doing just that grows! isn't that odd?

[seabeyond]

193. that would be an excellent example of mobbing. nt

[seabeyond]

194. whether hof has anyting to do with it or not, what is important is inject hof into the conflict

to continually associate hof as being a problem.

[MadrasT]

197. As far as I am concerned,

The higher the number of people trashing this group the better.

However, that number increases when you only trash the group from "Latest".

I am not convinced that many people completely trashed the group from viewing at all.

If they did that, where oh where would they get their infantile drama?

[seabeyond]

198. so, it just does not show on latest but they would just come in and see

what to be able to take back to meta to create problems.... that makes so much fuckin sense. all that are in all the threads, goes i and trash and then nanner about all the trash....

this is so old. days of this sheeeit. thanks. hadnt thought of that. makes sense.

[laconicsax]

56. I'm very sorry to see you go, and I hope you'll reconsider.

I wish I could disagree with your reasons, but I've come close to leaving for the same reason.

[just1voice]

98. "too old and too tired" is meaningless, the good fight continues regardless

of your or my or anyone's hideous experiences with sexism, racism, anti-intellectualism or any other gross violations of human rights. You may be giving up online but you will never give up personally, people like us simply aren't capable.

[seabeyond]

99. i like

just the 1 voice. good post.

[LiberalLoner]

100. So true. Sometimes we just need to take breaks and withdraw for a bit to heal.

[Hatchling]

127. I understand how you feel.

I just spent a delightful hour playing "whack a mole" with the hide thread feature. I decided I wasn't going to rent room in my head to these people. Especially since the majority of those threads were "fly bait" anyway.

I'm begining to think that #4 in our poll is the correct response.

Continue to Alert on Sexist/Misogynist Posts but do not respond

Drives em nuts, we stay out of META no matter the provocation, and then if they ome in here and we have some control of what they do. It will also become obvious who the true offenders are when they continue their one sided flame wars with "bait" threads we do not respond to. It wil also give us some more documentation for this option from our poll

Try to convince the admins to include Sexism and Misogyny explicitly in the TOS

[seabeyond]

133. have i said that i have two gay BILs that we love with all our heart and if we die our kids

will move to chicago, or he will move here and re adapt and live in what will become his home and raise our children so there is no reason for me to be concerned about TEH gays in TEH bathroom? even though we have 5 other family environments that would embrace raising our boys, with all my husbands siblings and both our parents and my brother, we would still prefer michael to raise our children.

in case there is any confusion.

[SidDithers]

137. Be well, JTFrog...

Sid

[MadrasT]

139. Dear JTFrog

I completely understand where you're coming from on this.



Since the move to DU3 I have been completely astonished at the hatred and anger that is directed toward women who dare to speak up.

[sufrommich]

143. Jesus Christ, I come in to see how JTFrog's thread is going and

WTF! Why are we allowing obviously hostile posters in here? Who is this Doctor who's shaking his finger at us and telling us how to behave? Has anybody else ever seen this happen in a safe haven before? Unbeilievable. I need to get out now, my blood pressure can't take anymore. I'm not coming back to check the thread, it absolutely sucks that this has been allowed here.I'll see you all in a couple of weeks.

[seabeyond]

144. ignore so they will go and leave us alone. try to stop the lies so they dont attach. have a man

tell us what to do cause we are stupid wimmin. where is the right answer? we cant win as long as the board sits back quietly and allows. have a list of 30 blocked and then they have ammunition with that. (a thought. the hosts might want to have a conversation about how much we want to isolate, or give it time)

no one.... i take that back. few are challenging. and that is why this is happening.

and yes. i have seen it before.

dont go. a break. a break is good. but, dont go. that is what all this is about. every woman that walks, a little cheer goes up

[Texasgal]

156. Thing is, the more we ignore

the more freaky they get.

As much as I want to tell whisp that her OP was just shit stirring... I won't. I am not going to add to that pile of crap OP. .

[seabeyond]

157. the more freaky they get.

ya. it is funny that way, lol, huh.

yup

hey... have you started the book or is it coming in the mail? i was shredding cheese and got my thumb and fourth finger. making typing hard. right hand, made eating a challenge, too. but a yummy salad.... i have been putting gouda cheese it in it and it is so good.

[Texasgal]

159. I have the book... just haven't started it yet..

Working on a really good book about two girls sold into marriage in Yemen. Horrific story, but a page turner.

I'm sorry about your finger, bandage it up and enjoy your gouda... I love stinky cheeses!

[LiberalLoner]

145. I agree. It seems to be open season on feminists. The war on women encourages them I guess.

I'm disgusted by what I have seen in DU too.

Face it - we are not wanted, we do not matter. On DU3 or anywhere else.

Sorry for being so cynical, but there it is.

[seabeyond]

147. we are not wanted, we do not matter.

maybe with the owners, i dont know. and certainly with a small group, for sure. i do not believe it is the board as a whole. not at all. the majority, strong majority i am sure is not in favor of this behavior. but they are turned off and inevitably become tuned out and dont realize what is happening. i believe. many dont mess with meta. and many are not here.

[LiberalLoner]

148. We do good at kicking tail when they come here to bully though. :) You guys rock!

Man, I was so tempted to reply to that one poll, what do you want when President Obama wins in a landslide....

I wanted to say, I want the President to take Taverner's porn away from him. Not anyone else, just him. But maybe things are a bit too raw for that humor.

[seabeyond]

149. ya, but

it was funny.

[MadrasT]

150. OK now that's funny.

[JNelson6563]

163. Yeah, it happens in the atheist forum

It is annoying when a person shows up (purposely) just to fling shit in a group. I don't get the impression that's what happened here. The meta thread says they didn't realize they were in group at first. I believe that because I have clicked on links on latest page and not realized I ended up in a group.

But those who troll a group just to fling it around, yeah, they need to go!

Julie

[boston bean]

164. You can read their meta posts about it. It was obvious shit flinging.

You know some people just come in to disrupt hoping to get blocked so they can go whine about it in META. Poor little them.

It's a game. We just don't want it here, as is our perogative.

[JNelson6563]

165. I support each group's choices.

I wasn't taking issue with this group or any other. Frankly I think it's important to keep a safe haven a hassle free place for the participants.

The atheist group has awesome hosts and I know they will clear things up as it become expedient to do so. I just don't get why people do the disruption thing (on purpose). It's as if they have no life beyond the forums. I'd feel sorry for them if they weren't such PITAs.



Julie

[seabeyond]

166. yup

to all you say....

we have all stepped into protected groups and know how to behave once we are in that group and where the line is. i truly feel it is like stepping into anothers space or home. my "guest" manner kicks in.

[Major Hogwash]

167. This has been going on for several months now

Rush Limbaugh did not go on his radio program and say, "Sandra Fluke is an atheist" after she testified before Congress.

[MerryBlooms]

168. Bail if you must ((hug))

I respect and thank you for your contribution to this site over the years.
I wish you well, peace of mind, and hope you can eventually return.

[Number23]

199. I am so sorry to see you go

I really am, Agent Frog. You were wonderful.

The fact that I'm just coming across this post speaks to my own significantly reduced time spent on DU. I consider it almost a sort of healing that I spend less and less time here, even when I'm on the Internet doing other stuff.

There is so much willful stupidity, meanness, delusion, self-absorption, cluelessness and to be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if some of these folks on DU spent every weekend baying at the moon they have such a "unique" quality to their postings, if you know what I'm saying.

I'm sure you won't spend a second thinking about this place. But you will be missed.

[TorchTheWitch]

201. sorry to see you go, but I totally understand

I don't spend anywhere near the time I used to here and it's because of the "new and improved" DU a haven for bigots of all stripes and kindergarten senseless mud slinging. I knew that bigotry would be rampant here when we first learned of the new moderating system on DU3 as well as sooo very many others... and with the history of DU that I've experienced over the years I knew that it would be the women getting the worst of it. DU has been a misogynic haven as long as I've been here, and I've taken many breaks and largely remained silent because of it. I clearly remember we had to FIGHT to have the word "bitch" and it's cousins - like that disgusting phrase "bitch-slap" recognized as a gender slurs and offensive. We FINALLY won that battle for a time, and now - like the rest of the country - women are being shoved backward on DU and we've lost more ground in cleaning up the misogyny here that it's ten times worse than I've ever experienced it before. Jesus, we even have people mocking us and calling people the "Word Police" because we don't want bigotry of any kind on DU. And why the FUCK are those people allowed to be here??? My guess is it's because they pay to be here and the admins just don't give a shit. What can one expect with admins that couldn't understand why "bitch" or bitch-slap" is a gender slur against women and why it's offensive and inappropriate here???

I have never given even one red cent to DU even during those years that I was making decent money and could have easily afforded it, and I never will as long as misogyny is so blatantly allowed here.

I hope to see you back again some time, but don't blame you at all if you never step foot on DU again. More and more the day is coming when I won't either.