What is it with misogynists and child molestation/rape?

[redqueen]

I recently found out that Gore Vidal was a rape apologist after seeing this quote from an interview, regarding his friend Polanski's having raped a 13-year-old girl: "I really don't give a fuck. Look, am I going to sit and weep every time a young hooker feels as though she's been taken advantage of?"

I read about this MRA blog a few weeks ago... and it, along with the Gore Vidal quote have been bugging me. I wonder what is wrong with these men, and why more people don't seem to think it's that big a deal. With all the Gore Vidal lionizing that went on last week, I only saw a very few mentions of the fact that the man was a rape apologist. So... I guess the fact that it was just kinda ignored means it's just not that big a deal, really?

It's easy to think that it's just a few sick, predatory assholes... but I wonder how many men agree that barely pubescent children should be fair game for adults to coerce into sex, or exploit for the sex trade. How is it that in some countries it's legal for grown men to take advantage of children, and this doesn't seem to be all that much of a problem for most people?

[DonCoquixote]

1. They do not want to care

because they are lazy, greedy pigs who want power, but no responsibility.

[SheilaT]

2. A lot of men really do think that no woman can possibly be raped

against their will. Then, if those same men get sent to prison, they might actually discover what rape is all about.

The apologists do not get it that rape is not an act of lust, but one of power.

[1StrongBlackMan]

54. There are a lot ...

of women that don't think any other woman, other than themselves, can be raped, as well.

I, once, heard a defense attorney say that in a rape case, she shoots for a jury of 9 women and 2 Marines and a college frat-boy.

[SheilaT]

70. How truly sad.

[loli phabay]

3. 37

but I wonder how many men agree that barely pubescent children should be fair game for adults to coerce into sex, or exploit for the sex trade.

[hlthe2b]

4. loli phabay

I need for you to explain this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/11142915

You obviously are inferring this to reflect opinion at this group, despite any denials to the contrary. No one here has EVER suggested this and I see this as nothing less than the ugliest form of flame baiting. There may be differences of opinion between posters in the Men's group and this group, but falsely attributing comments, thoughts and beliefs to members of one-- just to start an internecine battle-- is totally unacceptable.

Kindly tell me why you should not be blocked from this group for such obvious attempts to disrupt?
hlthe2b
History of Feminism Co-Host

[loli phabay]

6. no its not disruption its a genuine question that was inpired in some way from posts

Across the board and yes this group helped inspire it. Yes you have the right to ban me but i will still ask questions and disagree with a lot of some individuals beliefs. But beliefs are meant to be challenged even mine.

[hlthe2b]

8. No one has ever stated unequivocally that ALL men are rapists. I can only conclude your saying so..

is an intentional desire to disrupt. So, yes, you are now banned from this group. You may go to Meta to start your post of complaint, but just know that the men's group hosts may well be wary of such attempts to manipulate them and their group into your own agenda to disrupt. I think most recognize such intentional malicious efforts to deceive and distort when they see it.

[redqueen]

5. You might need to work on your comprehension.

If that thread you started was a response to this OP, then you're having some difficulty understanding it.

And 37? Do some reading about the market and demand for child porn on the internet, and how many people are raped during childhood. (I think I'm done using 'sexually molested'... seems too much like a euphemism.)

[loli phabay]

7. my issue is it seems as if you are painting all guys with the same brush

When the truth is tbeir is good and bad in all sexes.

[redqueen]

9. Where are you getting "all" from? nt

[hlthe2b]

10. re:

It is you who has painted with a broad brush and a very deceptive one at that. Member is no longer welcome in this group.

[MadrasT]

11. Dear Men Who Lurk

If it doesn't apply to you...

...we aren't talking about you.

[1StrongBlackMan]

58. LOL ...

We/They will NEVER get that!

Want more fun and games? Use the words "Some white liberals" and "racist" together in the same paragraph!

Melissa Harris Perry made that mistake.

[seabeyond]

62. ah, so true. nt

[redqueen]

64. LMFAO...

I bet that got some fireworks going.

You made a similar mistake below, BTW. You're risking some serious wrath by criticizing bald vulvas.

[1StrongBlackMan]

66. Like I said ...

I think "Child" ... Most UNappealing.

[seabeyond]

67. that is such an excellent damn GROWN UP point. lol. thank you for saying this, this way

that is very very good.

that is what my very UNinsightful progress hubby said once. a kid. no more or less. a kid.

that is it. he does not go beyond that.

[ismnotwasm]

59. Heh

[seabeyond]

13. what does 37 mean? i think if you are honestly looking at the subject you will see

that culture and society and with the net, we are conditioning the acceptance of child sex. i do not think it is inherent. i think with a firm line that it was very small. but i think in the last decade or so, this is being made more and more fuzzy. and with the escalation of the evo psych cult, it is being fed to men that it is biology. they cannot help it.

today in society everything promotes and makes these poor decisions easier.

it is crap to suggest that evo biology says all men really want 17 yr old. they say that cause they say the very young are best at providing babies. what they do is ignore fact. if i am going to be told that it goes all the way to caveman day (story telling) then even in story telling facts have to be used.

younger girls having babies has as high of preg risks as an older woman. a GIRL is not a good choice for preg. 20 and above would be the optimum age.

so, where do they come up with these excuses? being misinformed.

what is disingenuous is when a person is having a conversation about something, someone interprets it to ALL.

it is not even the majority. let alone ALL. i will not give it to ALL for anything in the world. there are too many good, grown up, responsible, sexually healthy men. but society and media and evo like to create ALL. so go after them with ALL. because they are the ones fuckin with the men.

[seabeyond]

12. i remember a thread on a 12 yr old caught in a strip bar. so many excusing that 12 looks 18.

that is crap. the growth and features are pretty evident. and men were giving her money so they are participating in a child strippin for them.

one man said, once hit puberty free game. cause she is just game. and they prey.

we have heard this before. this is not a new saying. it is familiar for a reason.

when i said to the poster ..... a girl can hit puberty at 10, is she free game? he did not respond.

but even more troubling. all the men that were on the thread did not call out that poster. none addressed a 10 yr old as free game.

i think that was the most disappointing.

[redqueen]

14. Too many men not speaking against it when those opinions are voiced.

Too many women joining in with blaming underage girls. Children.

Ignoring it obviously isn't helping. The silence and ignoring has to stop. It has to be called out.

[1StrongBlackMan]

61. I, once, ...

called into question the male attraction to/preoccupation with/acceptance of a certain female "grooming" practice.

I didn't get it then, and still don't. Hygiene? Okay, maybe; but completely bald? I think not. I think "child."

[1StrongBlackMan]

60. The one ...

and only episode of Seinfeld I watched, feature Jerry and George discussing someone else that was dating a much younger woman. Jerry asked George what he thought about it and George responded: "So long as there is grass on the infield, I say 'Play Ball!'"

I was like, WTF ... GTFOOH, and turned it off ... forever.

[seabeyond]

63. i didnt see that one. but, yes. thos would be the joke that allows the conditioning

of acceptance to the general public. and jerry likes them young, so of course he would promote it on his show.

hey.... you.... as always,

thank you for getting it.

[hifiguy]

15. Vidal lived a long life. He wrote many books, hundreds of essays

and appeared countless times on television. He was an intelligent, thoughtful, and witty man with many opinions worth serious consideration and was one of the foremost literary figures of his generation and the 20th century. He was a forceful critic of American imperialism in the world.

To reduce a life of more than 80 years to one comment made years ago is pettiness beyond measure.

[seabeyond]

16. and to ignore what he says is certainly dismissive. nt

[hifiguy]

18. Show me one person who hasn't said something stupid or

thoughtless in an 80+ year lifespan and you might have a point. Some people defend their friends even when the friends are wrong. Perhaps such was the case with Vidal defending Polanski. To dismiss the entirety of Vidal's career on the basis of one comment he made years ago is intellectualy indefensible.

Why are you following me around to the Men's Group? Just wondering.

[seabeyond]

22. and to not reflect on what the man is saying, and the cost to society is

short sighted.

you would think if it were just an "ooops" he had plenty of time to make a correction.

[seabeyond]

17. btw... the thread you just put up? pretty damn petty. nt

[redqueen]

19. He was/did all that, and he also thought raping children was no big deal.

That's a rather large character flaw, IMO.

His laudable stuff has been promoted thoroughly. His ideas about the acceptability of raping children, not so much. I didn't "reduce" him to anything. I pointed out something about him that too many people seem to be way too comfortable ignoring.

[hifiguy]

20. It's still one comment in a 70 year career.

That one comment does not devalue in the least his contributions to literature and politics. I am sure if your life was flyspecked the way you are flyspecking his, something equally nasty yet irrelevant could be used against you in a similar fashion.

And you are aware that Vidal was gay, aren't you?

[redqueen]

21. It is one extremely disturbing comment.

And I fail to understand why his career means he gets a pass for it and no one should discuss it.

And what the everloving fuck had the man's sexuality got to do with it? You really need to explain why you think that's meaningful, AT ALL.

[seabeyond]

23. paterno merely dismissed boys being raped but had a HISTORY of tons of charitable and good work.

how dare we hold him to turning his back to young boys being raped.

[hifiguy]

24. Paterno ignored a serial pedophile and rapist

who was under his direct supervision and was in a position where he could have stopped the criminal activity, which he chose not to do. Vidal made a comment about a friend over whom he had no control. There's a slight difference there, no?

[seabeyond]

25. no. society and our voice is what directs the right and wrong. reducing the girl to a hooker and

dismissing her when he had cultivated a voice absolutely gives him a responsibility.

[hifiguy]

29. Wow.

That is truly one of the most incredible (in the literal sense of the word) things I have ever seen expressed in my life.

Let me try this again:

At Penn State,

1. Joe Paterno was the most powerful person on the PSU campus.
2. Jerry Sandusky worked directly under Paterno as an assistant for years, and maintained a close relationship with both Paterno and PSU football after he was no longer a coach.
3. Jerry Sandusky was a serial pedophile and child rapist.
4. Paterno was aware of Sandusky's criminal conduct and did nothing about it even though he was in a perfect position to act.
5. Paterno never reported Sandusky's criminal conduct to the police.
6. Paterno continued to grant Sandusky access to PSU facilities even after he became aware of Sandusky's criminality.
7. Paterno acted affirmatively to insure that Sandusky's conduct was not discovered by others, endangering more boys by exposing them to Sandusky.

Gore Vidal
Made one somewhat flippant statement in defense of a personal friend long after the fact of the incident.

Trying to find an equivalency between those situations is impossible.

[seabeyond]

31. i am strong believer in personal responsibility, ownership, my part in speaking out for those abused

i am not surprised that that would cause a wow for you. i am more of a we as a whole, than individual mentality.

[hifiguy]

33. Ah, guilt is collective.

Now I get it.

[seabeyond]

35. no. you obviously do not get it. where did i say anything about "guilt". do tell?

or, are you simply making shit up for argument sake?

[redqueen]

40. No. It takes a village, and the village has been too quiet in schooling men

who think children are 'fair game'.

Seriously. A 13-year-old "hooker". Think about that.

[ismnotwasm]

65. Responsibility is collective.

In any situation of privilege.

It doesn't have to be a guilt response--unless one is guilty--but a evolving sense of privilege and how privilege oppresses others, to the detriment of all.

Gay males are still men. Or would you argue otherwise? I agree Vidal was a vibrant voice, a great mind, but it doesn't follow that he was aware of his personal privilege as a male. Thus his comment. And no, no one should be judged on one comment in a lifetime, but think deeply of the context of the comment itself, the topic matter of the group you are participating in, and the opinions that you disagree with may make more sense to you.

[redqueen]

26. What does Vidal's sexuality have to do with anything.

And so, if someone finds out years after the fact that their friend raped a child, and subsequently demonizes children who are raped while sticking up for the rapist... what would you think about that person?

[hedgehog]

27. It's not his sexuality that matters, but rather how society considered his sexuality for most of his

life. I think it left him dubious about societal norms.

[hifiguy]

30. Bingo.

Being a gay man was not an easy path to tread for the vast majority of Vidal's life.

[seabeyond]

34. then should we not all call out that his comment was abhorrent? since you give him... that his

sexuality was the reason for his comment, which i find awfully presumptuous and maybe offensive to him, then since he has such a voice isnt it our job to correct him? we are talking the rape of a child that he labeled a hooker.

[hifiguy]

36. Didn't say that.

What I am saying is that there does not breathe on this earth one person that has not said something foolish, cruel, or intemperate at one time or another. I prefer to look at the entirety of a person's life in deciding what kind of person he or she was, not one isolated statement.

[seabeyond]

37. so when people with a voice spout out that raping a 13 yr old hooker does not warrant attention,

we ignore it?

not gonna happen. again. i feel a responsibility to the whole and those abused. i will speak out for them. you can stay quiet. out of respect. to the man who would say something so disgusting. lets not challenge anything someone who we respect. free pass.

no thank you

[hifiguy]

39. Vidal made that remark a long time ago.

No one ever said a thing about it around here until he passed. I am not giving him a free pass, though I don't think one statement made long ago is terribly relevant, but if anyone who ever said something foolish or cruel in their lives is to be pilloried after their death on the basis of that one statement, let he or she who has never done the same be the one to cast the first stone.

[seabeyond]

44. "No one ever said a thing about it around here until he passed." you would be wrong.

i heard about it on du a good couple years ago when sweden? switzerland? held polinski.

i have not agreed with all that vidal has to say. maybe half. i was disgusted to hear what he said about a raped 13 yr old hooker. i lost that much more respect for him. yes, i did.

that is the reality.

we get to own and not get a free pass, for what we said.

if he felt differently or just the times, he had ample opportunity to correct himself. he did not.

you said like the fundies that we find did something wrong and the first thing they say to me is we are all sinners.

or the person that has an affair, we are all potential cheats.

this to me, is just outs... for behavior to take responsibility for.

i wont do it.

[redqueen]

42. This thread is not about Gore Vidal and forgiving him for demonizing children who were raped.

Could you please try to get back on topic.

[redqueen]

32. Somehow I expect that most people, gay and straight,

understand why raping 13-year-old children is wrong.

I recognize that 100's of years ago people had different ideas about childhood and sex, but we're talking about a few decades ago.

[boston bean]

68. This poster has been blocked from the group.

For throwing fire bombs aimed at this group from the men's group. See this link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11142958

Good on the jury for hiding. The action to block is taken because we do not want nor need posters who have such little respect for our group posting here. His post in the men's group proves he was here to cause trouble and was not posting in good faith. And he and his friends wondered why he couldn't managed to get himself blocked from our group. Wonder no more, I guess...

We just do not need that kind of disruption in the group. And that is what it is plain and simple. To allow someone to continue posting passive aggressive posts looking for a block is not conducive to a welcoming atmosphere and personally makes me feel extremely uncomfortable.

[seabeyond]

69. you are good hosts.... and dont you ever think otherwise. nt

[spotlight]

28. When you consider that the majority of child molestation is done to girls in thier own home,

I assume the original poster is asking if this is generally condoned by other males or if is thought of as taboo. At least, that is what I got from the question.

[upaloopa]

38. "asking if this is generally condoned by other males "

IMHO if you have to ask a question like that, you are really don't have a real good understanding of our society.

[redqueen]

43. Not about condoning. About the silence.

These ideas aren't hidden. Where is the outrage?

[upaloopa]

46. My guess would be that Vidal said that a long time ago and if we do research we might find

that outrage was voiced back then.

I don't know if it is reasonable to think that we would bring up his words periodically to voice outrage now and then.

Vidal said many things that pissed people off. He also wrote a lot of things that contribute to the well being of our society as a whole.

We all spend some of our time over at the dark side. At least that is what Christianity tells us Jesus died for.

[seabeyond]

48. shoot, this is one mere statement. so much, i dont know about the man. it might be a continued

theme of misogyny that we are not even aware of but is out there if we were to do a little bit of research. or, it might be one stupid ass statement and he has a history of standing with women, really separating this one statement. i do not know the mans thoughts well enough.

[redqueen]

49. Why are you guessing?

It was about Polanski. Three years ago.

Do a search. All the outrage is on feminist sites.

While you're at it, check out the outrage here at DU at the time, about the actual rape and the idea that he shouldn't be held accountable for it.

[upaloopa]

53. I am old enough and wise enough to know that plenty of men are a holes.

I don't represent all men.

There is an old logic statement that goes like this.

All cats are animals
All Dogs are animals
Therefore for dogs are cats.

Of course it is untrue but sounds good to some.

You could say this,

Men are a holes
upaloopa is a man
Therefore Uploopa is an a hole.

You'd be right some of the time and wrong some of the time depending on who is making the judgment.

I don't represent the male population and cannot speak for anyone but myself and that is true of all men and women.

[redqueen]

55. I'm not the one under the mistaken impression that the OP is about "all men"...

I actually do understand logic quite well

Not sure what your post has to do with the one you replied to, really.

[seabeyond]

56. agreed. but i do not think most any of us say all. as a matter of fact, i am continually having to

say, it is a small group. to not represent all. and as i said elsewhere. sometimes it is men that use ALL because it behooves them, to their advantage and i consistently call that out also.

[seabeyond]

41. i have come to think that men are so univested in the subject of rape that they are beyond clueless,

yet, as opposed to learning what every woman knows and lives with would rather tell the woman what she should feel, do and how she should experience it, in ignorance.

i really do think it is because it is so beyond a males personal space, that they are clueless with the experience.

yes, a lot of rape is in the home. a lot of rape is outside the home. and when a man has no interest in educating himself, do you think that is not a matter of silently condoning the behavior that is so prevalent that they refuse to be aware and part of the solution, instead of part of the problem.

[redqueen]

45. Boys are raped, too.

They are even less likely to tell, I think.

It really needs to stop being treated as shameful to be a victim. When people mock others simply because they were abused and talk about it, what message does that send?

[seabeyond]

47. yes. they are. and generally i hold them in part of my conversation. BUT.... this is about the

men that are truly clueless about rape cause it is nowhere in their sphere. the boys that are raped i am sure, are way more understanding and knowledgeable and perceptive. the issue is the many men that have no concept cause it has not touched their lives.

even women that have not been raped, get it. most anyway. because we are continually made aware, and shown graphic portrayal repeatedly in entertainment media.

[redqueen]

50. Yeah, I see your point.

I don't remember outrage about Vidal sticking up for polanski at the time. I remeber whoopi's comment and the outrage, but not Vidal's.

Shouldn't even be up for discussion. She was 13. Thanks again, rape culture.

[seabeyond]

51. i was so all over those threads. lol. it was there. i was saying it repeatedly. and with dsk.

to the very same apologists.

[redqueen]

52. I don't know how I missed it...

More likely I just forgot, for obvious reasons.

I still am disgusted... people get so worked up, and demand apologies for comments, going back decades.

This? This was a few years ago, get over it, who cares, no big deal. Rape culture + misogyny = winning.

[seabeyond]

57. that is the issue. brand insisting a woman flash. that still has me pissed. a shrug.... that is

his act.

fuck that shit.

the willing acceptance and dismissal of any slight to women. kirk fuckin douglas. call them on it. it is this very thing that continues it.