If one is another, why isn't the other the same one?

[aspirant]

If corporations are people, human beings, then why aren't people automatically corporations? Corporations don't have to file paperwork or filing fees or anything to receive the rights of human beings.

The legal system has set-up these corporate people with unequal justice in many categories of law. For one, the bankruptcy laws, where human beings are stuck with student loan debt without ways of forgiveness or dismissal.

If one is the other then a human being approaching the courts as their alter ego, a corporation, should be able to file for bankruptcy under corporate rules. If they are refused because of the lack of corporate paperwork, then let's go back to the origin of the corporation, the states.

It would only take ONE state to set-up corporation paperwork to make any single human being, not a sole proprietorship, but a legitimate corporation. How many corporations flock to Delaware to set-up.

Maybe this could be proposed to Vermont to set-up their single payer system with a $50-100 fee for establishing a single person corporation. Then let the student loan bankruptcy filings begin and have a real Main Street bailout for the people!!!

[Enthusiast]

1. Sounds like a good fucking idea.

[aspirant]

3. Or maybe

file as a class action corporation. Where are our legal eagles?

I think it is way past time to start putting SCOTUS in a corner on this issue.

[Jim Lane]

8. If I qualify as a legal eagle, I'll say No on this whole approach.

Under current law, a corporation is treated as a person for some purposes but not for others. Under the OP's approach, if a human chose to incorporate, would that mean that the human no longer had the right to vote? After all, corporations can't vote.

As for student loans, the loan was made to the individual. The borrower couldn't transfer the obligation to a different person (even his or her own corporation) and thus escape liability. The borrower would have to get the lender's consent, which obviously would not be forthcoming. Future loans could be set up this way if all parties agreed, but, again, they wouldn't; the lender wouldn't lend if the debt could be discharged through such a simple loophole.

I don't understand what you mean by a "class action corporation".

People who are incensed about corporate personhood should explain how they would feel about an executive order from Governor Brownback (or, worst case, President Cruz) confiscating the property of a corporation that the Tea Partiers dislike. Under current law, such an action would clearly be illegal under the Due Process Clause. That provision, however, protects a "person" from an arbitrary taking. If corporations weren't persons then they wouldn't covered. Corporate property also wouldn't be protected from unreasonable searches and seizures.

The outrage about corporate personhood is a major red herring. The better approach is to focus on specific issues, such as the Constitutional amendment to allow regulation of campaign finance. That would also address the problem of spending by individuals. Yes, Citizens United is a problem, but so is McCutcheon.

[aspirant]

9. A legal eagle you're not.

"corporation is treated as a person for some purposes" but a natural person must be all in when it comes to my alter ego, the corporation. A legal person, corp., is an entity created in law with CERTAIN powers so its not and all or nothing and a natural person can be treated the same way when incorporating.

States set-up corps as the legislature chooses.

If a corp exists as a legal entity becoming a limited natural person simultaneously, then why can't a human being exist as a natural person and a limited corporation simultaneously. Therefore when we took the loan, we were acting as a dual existence. If it's good for the corps., it's good for us.

A corp. set-up for many to file class action bankruptcy.

Have you heard of "EMINENT DOMAIN" and the CT. case

"Campaign finance," Vote To Amend has said it would take many years to possibly accomplish. So your approach is to sit quiet for 10 years and cross your fingers for a constitutional amendment?

Your problem is your stuck in the box, you can't think out of the box. Whatever corporate society says, you follow and when a new approach comes forward you dismiss it because the existing powers tells you to.

[Jim Lane]

10. Well, let me try spreading my wings a little.

Therefore when we took the loan, we were acting as a dual existence.

Not so, as I made clear. Existing student loans were taken out by unincorporated natural persons. Once a deal is made, the borrower can't unilaterally change the terms to the lender's detriment -- and a change that deprived the lender of any recourse against the individual would certainly be detrimental. Incidentally, the rule against unilaterally changing a contract also applies to corporations. The law gives them no special consideration in this regard.

Future student loans? You're right that a state could allow an individual to incorporate. You could set up a corporation now, using one of the existing forms, or a state might amend its law to create a new type of entity tailored to people who want some new sort of personal corporation. Once you have your corporation, if you set the deal up from the beginning so that the lender's only recourse is against the corporation, one that presumably has no assets, then you can refuse to repay the loan and not be on the hook personally. If you find a lender offering such a loan, go for it. I think they're in the phone book under "Easter Bunny Banking and Trust, N.A." (By the way, even with real corporations, such as those that run small businesses and aren't set up solely to get a loan, it's not at all uncommon for a lender to require individual officers to co-sign the loan so that they'll be personally liable if the corporation goes bankrupt. Lenders have this strange habit of wanting good reason to believe they'll be repaid.)

A corp. set-up for many to file class action bankruptcy.

I'm still not following you. Is the idea that a whole bunch of people will set up corporations, and then all the corporations will join in a class action bankruptcy filing? I don't think existing class action rules would allow that, but assume they did -- what's the advantage? You still have the issue that the conclusion of a corporate bankruptcy discharges the corporation's debts but not those of any natural persons who are also liable on the debts.

Have you heard of "EMINENT DOMAIN" and the CT. case

I assume you're referring to Kelo. That case doesn't hold that a corporation has some strange power, unavailable to natural persons, to confiscate someone else's property. The power of eminent domain can be exercised only by the government. Kelo upheld the action of the City of New London in exercising that power on behalf of a private entity. The Court's reasoning would apply whether the beneficiary was a corporation or an individual.

"Campaign finance," Vote To Amend has said it would take many years to possibly accomplish. So your approach is to sit quiet for 10 years and cross your fingers for a constitutional amendment?

An amendment targeted at campaign spending would indeed take many years. An amendment targeted at corporate personhood would take many more years because its ramifications would be so much wider and it would therefore spark so much more opposition. The best hope for reform is a change in the composition of the Supreme Court, resulting in a new decision overruling both Citizens United and McCutcheon.

Your problem is your stuck in the box, you can't think out of the box. Whatever corporate society says, you follow and when a new approach comes forward you dismiss it because the existing powers tells you to.

No, I dismissed it because of a specific legal analysis (other effects of the revocation of corporate personhood) that I stated and that you ignore. If you don't feel like responding to what I wrote, fine, but you have no basis for stating that my argument is pretextual and that the real reason for my position is that I'm taking orders from "the existing powers".

[aspirant]

12. I responded to exactly what you wrote.

Does the word "retroactive" exist in your vocabulary.

ALL forms of bankruptcy "change the terms to the lender's detriment." This was a joke, right? Any lender lending on credit knows he is taking a risk. The USA loans to 18 year-olds with no assets because they want to invest in our countries future.If good jobs don't exist to repay these loans, you say go along with the existing system(in the box) and screw our youth. The FED loans trillions to the filthy bankers and when they default, we just loan them trillions more, but the unlucky poor students must live in efficiency apts for years. Don't see a problem here, right?

"Easter Bunny Banking and Trust" Ohhh, that would be the US govt giving filthy banksters money on only a SMALL % OF RESERVE ASSETS to pay back the loan. How about AIG taking billions in bets that they couldn't pay back, are they the Easter Bunny too?Did you forget all these trumped-up mortgages that would never be paid back? EASTER BUNNY MORTGAGE AND LOAN

"What's the advantage" so they wouldn't be stuck for many years in the legal system as individual filings by the mega-millions.

Was KELO controversial? Can Joe Smith, a natural person, get the govt to file eminent domain to get ABC corporation's land ?

"Campaign spending would indeed take many years" and now you change from cheering for Vote to Amend and giving them millions to hoping for a SCOTUS change. Nothing else, no fighting back like the repubs have done with Roe vs Wade, just fingers crossed again.

Present-day "specific legal analysis" is still thinking in the box. According to this logic, Hobby Lobby had no business filing their suit because it disrupted the legal status quo of society. Your legal analysis is yours not mine!

[Jim Lane]

15. Sorry, not worth answering your straw men and distortions.

The things you say I said -- I didn't actually say. So, after feeling the impulse to go through point-by-point and correct you ("But someone is wrong on the Internet!&quot , I'm going to restrain myself.

You go right ahead doing your legal analysis your way, and I'll do mine my way. Although we have some major differences about tactics, we're basically on the same side in terms of where we'd like to end up.

[aspirant]

16. "Same side" the sunny side

There are many paths to the mountain top but if we all can "end up" reaching these heights, what a wonderful place Earth would be!

[RiverLover]

11. I agree.

Esp~

"The better approach is to focus on specific issues, such as the Constitutional amendment to allow regulation of campaign finance."

We had problems way before Citizens United with Big Money buying our elected reps. We need to make it public financing only. But nixing Citizens United would be an excellent adjunct. And we really need to limit lobbyists access to government officials, if we can make a Xmas wishlist...

[aspirant]

13. So what is the plan, NOW

"problems way before Citizen's United" So for many years these problems have existed and is your solution to wait 10+ more years and give millions to Vote To Amend for hope and un-guaranteed Constitutional change?

"specific issues" require specific solutions
1)'public financing only" How do we do it and how long will it take.
2)"limit lobbyists access to government officials" How do we do it and long will it take.

[RiverLover]

14. My plan is to give $ and support to Wolf Pac, who are doing great things

& have a GREAT plan. Check 'em out aspirant, you'll like what they're doing!

Wolf PAC is an American political action committee formed in 2011 with the goal of "ending corporate personhood and publicly financing all elections in our country", to include the restriction of large monetary donations to political candidates, parties, and groups.[4][5] It began with an announcement at an Occupy Wall Street rally in New York City by The Young Turks host Cenk Uygur.[6]

Its strategy is to add a 28th amendment to the Constitution, thereby overturning multiple Supreme Court cases including Citizens United v. FEC and Buckley v. Valeo, which cumulatively have made it impossible to achieve Wolf PAC's campaign finance goals through simple legislation. Wolf PAC believes that Congress is too corrupt to pass such an amendment itself, and therefore advocates a convention of the States, which is a procedure outlined in Article V of the Constitution. As of December 2014, three out of the necessary thirty-four states have passed resolutions calling for such a convention....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_PAC

The Plan

Our Ultimate Goal:

To restore true, representative democracy in the United States by pressuring our State Legislators to pass a much needed Free and Fair Elections Amendment to our Constitution. There are only 2 ways to amend the Constitution. (1) Go through our Federal Government (2) Go through our State Legislators via an amendments convention of the states.

Wolf PAC believes that we can no longer count on our Federal Government to do what is in the best interest of the American people due to the unfettered amount of money they receive from outside organizations to fund their campaigns. We point to the failure of the Disclose Act as rock solid evidence that this would be a total waste of our time, effort, and money. We also point to the recent decision by the US Supreme Court to not even hear a case filed by Montana claiming it did not have to abide by Citizens United, as proof that state legislation is not a sufficient measure to solve this problem. We believe that we have no choice but to put an amendment in the hands of our State Legislators, who are not, at this moment in time, completely blinded by the influence of money and might actually do what 96% of the country wants...take away the massive influence that money has over our political process.



Step 1: Believe

Convince enough people to believe that we absolutely have the power to change our country for the better and that it is still possible to have a government of, by, and for the people in the United States. Convince those same people that we have a plan that will work if they are willing to do any of these vital things for us; volunteer, meet and talk with their local State Legislators about this issue, spread the word via telling others, posting our link through email or social media, donating, or becoming a Wolf PAC Member. Think about how much power we would have if just 1/3 of 1 percent of us were giving only $10 a month to a plan that could save our democracy...we would have 10 million dollars a month to educate people and actually change the system for the better. You can become a member and help us have the power we need to fight fire with fire by Clicking Here.


Step 2: Action

Build a structure of volunteers in every state and every district in this country that is capable of making contact with State Legislators at the drop of a hat. We know that State Legislators listen to people within their own districts and that if they get just three calls on any given issue they are going to pay attention to that issue. If we build our network big enough to put pressure on State Legislators in every district in the country then we will win. That's why we really need you to sign up to volunteer. We need you to call your local State Legislators and set up a meeting with them to discuss the influence of money in our political process. (very easy conversation to have, everybody has an opinion on this subject)


Step 3: Focus

Once we have found those states that are the most receptive to joining this battle with us we will focus our time, effort, and money on them until we get that vital and historic first state to call for an Article V. Convention for the purpose of limiting the influence that money has over our political process. According to Article V of our Constitution, Congress must call for an amendment-proposing convention, “on the application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States”, and therefore 34 state legislatures would have to submit applications.


Step 4: Connect

After we have gained momentum from getting that first state "on the board" we will then begin to introduce State Legislators all around the country to each other via conference calls, webinars, etc. and show them that this a real possibility if they are willing to stand up together. Explain to them that a convention is the only way to restore true democracy to the United States and that they have a chance to be part of something incredibly historic.


Step 5: Demand

Make every election in the United States from now until this problem is solved a one issue election. If the influence of money in politics is at the root of all other issues in our country we must start voting like it. We will inform the public by running television commercials, radio ads, social media, internet ads, and using the media platform of the largest online news show in the world, The Young Turks.


Step 6: Enforce

Once an amendments convention has been called we will continue to put pressure on the delegates to craft a strong and lasting Free and Fair Elections Amendment that will preserve our democracy for future generations. There will be so much media attention at this point due to the historic nature of the event that no delegate would dare propose an amendment that the vast majority of the country does not agree with. Furthermore, any amendment proposed would still need to go out of that convention and be ratified by 75% of our state governments (i.e. 38 states) in order to become part of the Constitution. That is why we are confident that an amendment to deal with the unfair influence of all big, outside money flooding our political process in the United States is the only possible amendment that could come from such a convention.

Step 7: Rejoice

Celebrate the fact that we had the courage and persistence to accomplish something truly amazing and historic together.


Something to keep in mind:

Near the turn of the 20th century the states wanted a direct election of senators, and Nebraska was the first state to call for an Article V. Convention in 1893. By 1913 the movement had come within one state of reaching the necessary 2/3 threshold that would force a convention. When it became clear to Congress that the 17th Amendment was going to happen one way or another they decided to preempt a convention by passing it themselves. The threat of a convention is the strongest message we can send and the most effective way to restore our democracy in the United States. This can and must be done in a far shorter time period then it took for the 17th Amendment. Then again, they didn't have the power of the internet and other amazing technology we will be using in this battle.



CLICK HERE TO TAKE ACTION AND JOIN THE FIGHT FOR FREE AND FAIR ELECTIONS!

http://www.wolf-pac.com/the_plan

[Mbrow]

2. K &R

Wow, great thought, The GOP overlords heads would explode!

[sabrina 1]

4. I wrote an OP a few years ago suggesting that the American People Incorporate.

I think that would be the biggest corporation in the country, WAY too big to fail. We the people would then be entitled to all that bailout money.

Fall behind in your mortgage payments, no problem, over spend on your credit cards, get bailed out.

'We The People Inc' I believe was the title of America's largest Corporation.

Didn't take off, but I still think it is the solution.

Good OP, thanks.

[aspirant]

5. At the beginning,

if we can't go big we can go small so that the people can see that WE HAVE THE POWER.

An American corp. of people could be our national union where we could shut down this country whenever we choose.

Please don't give up on the idea, we need to keep pounding and pounding it until the people can see we have real hope and change WITHIN US, not waiting for a hero.

[whereisjustice]

6. corporatations are a super-sized citizen with extra rights and privledges, eom

[aspirant]

7. We must

possess these extra rights and privileges for OUR pursuit of happiness.

[CrispyQ]

17. The solution is to revoke corporate special rights.

Thom Hartmann wrote an excellent book, Unequal Protection, all about CP. A little dry, but worth the read.

http://www.amazon.com/Unequal-Protection-Corporations-Became-People/dp/1605095591

NEW EDITION, REVISED AND UPDATED
Unequal taxes, unequal accountability for crime, unequal influence, unequal control of the media, unequal access to natural resources—corporations have gained these privileges and more by exploiting their legal status as persons. How did something so illogical and unjust become the law of the land?

Americans have been struggling with the role of corporations since before the birth of the republic. As Thom Hartmann shows, the Boston Tea Party was actually a protest against the British East India Company—the first modern corporation. Unequal Protection tells the astonishing story of how, after decades of sensible limits on corporate power, an offhand, off-the-record comment by a Supreme Court justice led to the Fourteenth Amendment—originally passed to grant basic rights to freed slaves—becoming the justification for granting corporations the same rights as human beings. And Hartmann proposes specific legal remedies that will finally put an end to the bizarre farce of corporate personhood.

This new edition has been thoroughly updated and features Hartmann’s analysis of two recent Supreme Court cases, including Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission, which tossed out corporate campaign finance limits.

I didn't realize there was a new addition. I may have to get it.