Do you see this?

[Baobab]

Last edited Mon Feb 29, 2016, 03:20 AM - Edit history (1)

In 2009, Obama's first State of the Union message included a EDIT - better word is non-obvious- xxxhiddenxxx message telling the non-math challenged that Obamacare wasn't seriously intended to address the health care needs of the country and was only for appearances sake because "it had to be self supporting" and that basically meant it would fail, I think that was already clear by the first SOTU address (at least I saw this interaction loud and clear) and that portion of the address was actually intended to send that message, to his - (maybe donors- supporters but not the kinds we think of, or are) ...

I see an identical kind of signalling behavior at work in the recent USTR message about the WTO decision on solar power,

Obama Undermines Climate Efforts in Solar Trade Dispute


which is actually it seems to me less about India than about the US and protectionism, a very sensitive subject because Americans still havent been told about progressive liberalisation or GATS or the last 20 years of US trade policy, part of which are promises to liberalise services - trading jobs for market acess overseas in countries like india. They get jobs, we get cheap labor, they get money, but not a super lot of it.

These promises have been made quietly but they go back decades and the countries that have been on the receiving end of these promises want action, soon.

The message was directed at them to ignore Bernie and his talk about (WTO and TiSA and TPP and especially TiSA-prohibited protectionism that must seem discongruous. But its just to reassure them that - we're all (all the 99% - the bitter Americans he is contemptuous of) out of the loop because the trading away of American jobs and the pushing down to global norms of US wages is of course such a sensitive subject!

So Shhhh! Everything is under control! Thats just "democracy" in action... *wink* Even if Bernie were to WIN, WTO and the other secret deals render the issues moot

To be blunt- he could not DO any of the "economic stimulus" "New Deal" "health care", "public education" stuff he says because it would violate the deals rules..

[dchill]

2. Don't be bamboozled. Don't get hoodwinked.

Don't fall for the Okeydoke.

[Baobab]

6. What a good choice of words. Thank you.. read the link.. From the UK.

WE ARE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER.


https://www.opendemocracy.net/ournhs/john-hilary/on-ttip-and-nhs-they-are-trying-to-bamboozle-us


John Hilary is the director of War on Want.

Notice in his letter where he is explaining the problems with TTIP and how the US is using the trade deals to attack their NHS!

Look at the choice of words.. He uses the wording from GATS Article I:3 b and c

That text's use is one of the ***core problems*** for this entire planet right now and the sooner we get that text out into the sunshine and get some critical thinking going on it the better.

PLEASE...

[dchill]

8. Choice of words.

As you may know, my choice of words was actually Obama's, from the 2008 campaign. I actually thought he was referring to HRC's campaign rhetoric (and WJC's). Now it seems he may have really been warning us about his own message - and how he'd had to sell his soul to gain the Presidency. I don't know - but look at how it's all turning out.

I guess it's too much to expect that a President elected by the people should actually work to protect their interests.

[Baobab]

17. Times they are a changin...

>As you may know, my choice of words was actually Obama's, from the 2008 campaign.

No I didnt know that, but the fact that he uses the word Bamboozled is interesting to me. Did you know he used to be a lawyer for "real estate developers".

Okay, here is the problem its a multiple agent problem. We made the mistake that Obama's half blackness meant something that it didn't. He has said he identifies as black and I think thats likely true, but he also likely identifies with the Third World and if you look at it that way, the whole thing sarts making a lot more sense because what he's doing is going to help Third World countries tremendously at the expense of the already struggling US workers of all races but I have a feeling American young people, people in certan targeted professions which "crises" have been cooked up for, and because they are exposed both through employment in the parts of the federal local and state government that are not exempt by virtue of national security or services provided as nonwhite people are going to pay the highest price because of the structure of the changes:


Look at this text:

"For the purposes of this Agreement…

(b) 'services' includes any service in any sector except services supplied in the exercise of governmental authority;

(c) 'a service supplied in the exercise of governmental authority' means any service which is supplied neither on a commercial basis, nor in competition with one or more service suppliers."

It seems to me that the portions of the public sector where nonwhite people are particularly well represented will be the portions that fail the C part of the test. teachers, nurses, IT staff in non-secret workplaces where a contractor could do the jobs. (Also, the parts of government that have likely been privatized but the firms providing the services are domestic, not international)

I don't know, this is all speculation, but I suspect that firms that have counted on certain kinds of carve outs to get work, (women and minority owned businesses) and keep it are going to lose them on the altar of globalization. And they will not get much in the way of sympathy because the architects of 'progressive liberalisation' the choice - whenever it was made, of using the LDCs as the "scabs" is a brilliant one.


>I actually thought he was referring to HRC's campaign rhetoric (and WJC's). Now it seems he may have really been warning us about his own message - and how he'd had to sell his soul to gain the Presidency. I don't know - but look at how it's all turning out.

As time goes on Ive become more aware of the plight of the developing nations and have grown to respect their position more. I think that also they are aware of the moral complexity of the deception and are very much NOT comfortable with it. But NOT to the point of giving his up, and I dont think we can walk away from it no matter how ugly it is, without replacing it with something better that reflects the very very best in both real American AND human values.

I dont know what that is, but thats what we have to do, and we have to create some new way of seeing one another that prevents this kind of ISOLATION where it becomes possible for silver tngued deceivers to play these kinds of games because THEY are the only ones that travel so they can take advantage of the non traveling, increasingly isolated American workforce. Whatever we do has to be two way street. In other words, what I see is an urgent need for Americans to get out more and join the rest of humanity , and not be isolated.

We need to out-Obama Obama

>I guess it's too much to expect that a President elected by the people should actually work to protect their interests.

NO ITS NOT and therein lies the problem these days.

Mark my words, these trade deals are criminogenic, they turn Senators, Congresspeople ad Presidents into liars by their conspiratorial secret anti-public interest nature. How can they stand there and tell us

"We gave away our own power to change almost everything important, and hid it by pretending to argue"

"We gave away affordable healthcare and to hide it until we could take it away forever with mre credibility globally by buying the services of Third World nations by giving them entitlemens to do work at cut rate prices, and we basically wasted years of your and your family's precious time and during that time hundreds of thousands of people needlessly died"

[bernbabe]

3. Fuck the deals.

New President, new deals, rip that shit up.

[Baobab]

7. It doesnt work that way at all. If it did, they wouldn't pour all this money and time and energy int

No, these deals get enforced ...

From Clinton donor Achmea.



http://www.italaw.com/cases/417
Achmea B.V. v. The Slovak Republic, UNCITRAL, PCA Case No. 2008-13 (formerly Eureko B.V. v. The
Slovak Republic). Case type: International Investment ...

http://www.italaw.com/cases/2564 (Read the award in this one, starting at Page 13 )

Achmea B.V. v. The Slovak Republic, UNCITRAL, PCA Case No. 2013-12 (Number 2). Case type: International Investment Agreement. Applicable arbitration ..

-------

Other notable cases, from memory..

Eastern Sugar v. Czech Republic.. Dissolution of former country and entry into the EU does not nullify obligation under trade deal signed right after breakup of communism (taking advantage of ignorance or naivete is a common theme and in our case its really beyond the pale to do it here, where we have the mst expensive most unjust health care system in the world)

Viola Propertie v. Arab republic of Egypt Not public case, Corporation sues Egypt for raising a minimum wage after Arab Spring urising.

[bernbabe]

13. Well...

we're the USA, perhaps we could "throw our weight around".

[Baobab]

16. You mean after a Bernie victory, of course, right?

I am sorry, you just dont see this issue the way I see it, and in order to see it the way I do, you need to get a feel for how much work over decades has been put into building this all up.

Its a trade and we have already been paid our part in higher profits and countries not settig up public health care, etc, hoping for some jobs from our big and expensive table.. Since it turns out with some countries that not so many of their products are bought by us, this is the thing they want.

literally half the world has been strung along with promises for a long long time and they had every reason to believe that the official representatives of the US corporations and government had the authority to make those back room promises, and their requests to keep that quiet were because they didnt want the US general public to get alarmed until the deal was finished. Because of the negative list approach that includes everything in by default. Did you read the stuff I posted?


Have you ever had an NPD (especially) but sometimes this also happens with alcoholic or drug addicted friends or family members - They habitually make bullshit promises to you and everybody else

Have you ever known people who manipulate others by promising to give them some thing, and later it turns out that it was all a scam, maybe they promised multiple people the same thing?

[Baobab]

18. What a switch in our behavior that would be hahahahaha

>we're the USA, perhaps we could "throw our weight around".

Lets just say we've done a lot of that recently in the other direction.

Visualize that moment on StarTrek when the ship encountered hyperspace turbulence you hear whooping alarm sounds while all the actors in unison lurch from one side to the other.

Look, as I said, there is clearly sympathy for the light of the clueless US workers.

That seems clear to me from the choice of references found in the various statements by Third World services negotiating groups. They are reading and citing the writing of the most literate opponents of 'progressive liberalisation' almost as much as they cite its proponents

That means they are quite sympathetic to the cause, considering the situation where superficially they are being put into a box and being told that their interests conflict with ours.

We're both prisoners in the same jail, who cannot communicate and only see one another from a distance.

Imagine though, if this whole thing could be gotten out into the open.

[merrily]

4. Jury results 3-4 to leave

uh, isn't this a little whacko for DU?

"In 2009, Obama's first State of the Union message included a hidden message..."

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon Feb 29, 2016, 01:12 AM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: "Hidden" is just a poor choice of word. The poster is saying that, by saying the program had to be self-supporting, Obama was signalling that the program was not serious. Disgree with the poster, if you wish.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

[haikugal]

5. K&R!!

[tk2kewl]

9. a while ago i said this was the reason why Andy Cuomo allowed a fracking ban

it makes him look good for now, but NY wasn't ripe for fracking yet, and if the trade rules don't change, when the time comes he can say, "my hands are tied," and the drilling will begin

[abelenkpe]

10. If their hands are tied and government

Officials are powerless to protect citizens then what use are they? Isn't the entire thing a charade?

[tk2kewl]

11. merely part of the scenery?

[djean111]

12. Yes, it is a cynical charade. IMO this is why Obama wants to pass this shit - now that I think of

it, perfect description - before the GE. So Hillary can say she is against the deals, with a straight face, and the comforting knowledge that they are done deals. There would be more "oh, sorry, my hands are tied" excuses than in all of Fifty Shades of Gray. And privately - merriment.

This is not actually country against country, this is corporations against countries. Anything that would impede current profits or prevent new profits will be gotten rid of through trade courts. Monsanto would not have to fight for GMOs on a country by country basis - it could just sue everyone in a corporate court. Single Payer? That would affect profits, so no it would not happen. And the TTIP will go after the universal health care in Europe.

[abelenkpe]

15. We need global workers unions

Otherwise workers will continue to be played against one another. Worry that you're right about that trade deal. ☹

[Baobab]

21. Automation?

Last edited Mon Feb 29, 2016, 07:16 PM - Edit history (1)

Its human nature to perhaps overestimate the length of time between the effects of automation in developed countries and the same changes hitting the still developing countries.

http://www.kurzweilai.net/the-law-of-accelerating-returns.

[Baobab]

23. A multitude of consumers and users unions too

Because everybody likely will be a consumer or user of things for a long long time.

Another alternative structure is open source/community or self manufactured hardware.

I.e. "Makers"

[Baobab]

14. it depends, neither Obama nor Hillary seem to be 'on our side' as we need.

There is a speech "The Change that the believe in" by Robert Fitch to the Harlem Tenants Association (also found as "Fitch on Obama" )

https://web.archive.org/web/20140210011351/http://www.scribd.com/webber3292/d/92392289-Fitch-on-Obama

or maybe

https://bigham.wordpress.com/2014/04/03/the-late-robert-fitch-on-obama-the-change-they-believe-in/


The TTIP energy deal is part of a really big trade deal, the biggest ever, and its about much more than just fracking,

Chemicals- many much needed changes likely are being prevented by TTIP so that businesses can have stability even in the face of scientific discovery. The US has successfully hobbled regulation of harmful chemicals for 30 years, even as the science has exploded. The goal is to reverse Europe's "Precautionary Principle" with its doppelganger (evil twin) a law that charges taxpayers for government doing their jobs, and in practice it effectively cripples regulatory action, the trade deal will block change in dozens of countries unless a special stacked panel approves it.

This is despite an urgent pressing need for changes (in the regulatory, no the deregulatory direction) involving countless chemicals discovered over the past several decades, for example, endocrine disruptors -(which are clearly extremely damaging to health. We know, for example that they are hideously expensive in Europe - costing hundreds of billions of Euros i disease each year). The deals create a new requirement for compensation of corporations instead of victims, before any change is allowed to occur. They may shift the potential costs of biopersistant EDCs and many other environmental problems onto taxpayers in a blame-agnostic way, making taxpayers pay the polluters instead of the other way around..

TTIP energy deal and the globalization of fuel poverty.

The deregulation of natural gas export from the US, alleged to be required by both GATS and included in TTIP is likely to cause a lot of disruption in housing due to the precarious legal position of rent stabilization laws nationally, which the trade deal could result in the abolition of. -because of a substantial projected rise in the price of natural gas (effecting both electricity and heating) and the age of the US's housing stock. It will also provide opportunity for the world's building industry, and they should result in an economic stimulus to the successful low bidders, from whatever country hey hail. A great many urban Americans may be displaced from affordable but older rental and owned housing by the jump in energy prices. It wont be simply a matter of finding another apartment because the rate of increase in the rentel cost of housing has far exceeded wages so the difference between renters pre TTIP rents and afterwards may be astronomical all other things being equal. Also, many older buildings may be simply torn down and replaced with condominiums, not rentals. Longtime urban dwellers may be hard put to adapt to the changes. Many may not even know how to drive -

[Baobab]

19. What is the differece between a moratorium and a ban?

Where is St. John?

[tk2kewl]

20. moratorium is a temporary stay...

a ban presumably would be a prohibition.

St. John? not sure what you're asking... St. John's U. is in Queens

[Baobab]

22. Likely preempted

The whole point of FTAs is to preempt things like that at a supranational level ...

Basically, they become unable to make changes that might be needed, forever.

No country can predict what the future will bring and that's the problem, it doesn't matter.

So, one President with a stroke of a pen can literally doom a country to fracking and exporting it until its all gone, or horrible health care forever in a way which cannot be reversed without paying a kings ransom, literally.

People likely will look to the politicians for help and they are happy to give the impression they can and will but the fact is, they wont be able to 'fix it' even if there were complete changes in government of a fundamental nature which makes it imperative that countries on planet earth which is undergoing a critical period of transition from biological to non-biological labor, change growing at an exponentially increasing rate, not sign them.

Same thing with services. Services liberalisation makes services procurement an entitlement that goes to the lowest qualified bidder, nomatter what country. So economic stimulus becomes a necessarily global thing. Thats what the WTO told us the other day. Listen!

If a country can automate their services provision workforce so that other countries must hire their robots because they are the lowest bidder, they will get the work!

So expect an automation race so that the US can be competitive again in a few decades. people will have to go hungry until then. Tighten your belts and avoid debt.