If Sanders does not bring the party back, one must realize the party will complete a REALIGNMENT

[Dragonfli]

It will likely be too late to reclaim the party from within if he fails, so we must consider all viable options.

If true liberal ideals, a moral economy, and an equal society that grows beyond bigotry in all it's forms is to ever be achievable again, let alone in time to stop the demise of many species including our own. It will be nearly impossible by the method we had hoped for, that is, by saving the party from it's complete makeover and thus reclaiming it because in a few years such wili no longer be a viable option. Let me explain if I might.

Those that vote for hawkish Neo-Liberals such as Clinton are not in denial, they are simply not at all like the Democrats of the pre "intellectual leveraged buyout of the Party" by the Koch funded DLC, beginning before, then put actively into practice in 1992.

They are, like the candidates they support, neo-liberals. Some are also even neocons as well, much like Hillary Clinton.

Many of us call these sort of voters limousine liberals, or latte' liberals but they are something else.

I have understood this a long time, most are comfortable financially (not necessarily rich yet many are) but able to always pay their bills, save for retirement, usually live in the 'burbs and own at last two cars (plus a starter car for their teenage child old enough to drive).

They like to consider themselves politically correct, believe in equality just enough to support it verbally and feel "evolved" (while thinking they deserve a badge for doing so) but would never put themselves in harms way for the rights and equality that sound as good to them coming out of their mouths as their own flatulence smells to them coming out of their own asses (they detect a whiff of roses when they breath it in).

They ARE moderate Republicans (like the ones that no longer exist outside the Democratic party), I remember back when most Republicans were sane and many (certainly not the Goldwater or John Birch types though) believed in civil rights, choice and other equality issues, they were different in that they believed in Republican fiscal values, the old bootstrap philosophy made popular by Ayn Rand (even if the Democratic version would never admit it).

The party is going through a realignment, as parties do over the course of decades, (just as the Republican Party once was the anti-slavery party but have been quite the opposite for a long time now) - The Democratic party is changing into the moderate Republican party of my childhood (except they are far more hawkish than the old Rs used to be). There is no more room for the new Deal, The Great Society, or the working class in this newly realigning party.

The Republicans have also been going through a realignment during the same 35 year period as ours has. One of the reasons one no longer finds Moderate Republicans in the Republican Party, but only in ours, under their new (D) banner. Their realignment has already turned them into the modern equivalent of the John Birch Society wackos of old, but they are not finished yet, just as we are not finished yet.

Once the Realignments of the parties are complete, ours will be fully Republican, with no vestige of economic morality left, even in the "fringe" that was once the heart of the party. The Republicans in their completion will be the Fascist US party (they of course like the brand name they already have, Republican sounds so much like a "Republic" (a form of representative democracy this country was first created to be, and if one believes the bullshit group psychosis it still is), so they will never call themselves Fascists.

I suppose the question to the average Citizen is, do you want to be a Republican (under a new brand name)
A Fascist (under a new brand name)?

Or hope the worst of the newly realigned parties self destructs, leaving room in our two party system for some form of labor party like the Democratic party once was, with a deep belief as well in full equality for all of us and a livable, for our type of mammal, biosphere. (personalty I hope the one turning fascist is the one that self destructs, but that is just me).

It has to be more than a labor party, it must also include equality and unity for moral reasons of course, but also for a very pragmatic reason. We need to repair a biosphere so terribly damaged that it will take (all hands on deck in unity) if it is to matter enough, and in time, so that it may continue supporting our form of life rather than succumbing to yet another series of ELEs That will leave our earth very, different and without our species - to have yet another go at continuing it's varying evolution experiments among the remaining species to suit the new environment.

I only ask that you give this perspective some thought, and come to your own conclusions

[cantbeserious]

1. Thank You For Sharing

eom

[Rebkeh]

2. Signed in to K and R nt

[emsimon33]

5. Me, too, actually!

[LiberalArkie]

3. K&R

[emsimon33]

4. The Green Party already exists...perhaps that is the answer

For Democrats that adhere to the tenets that under girded the Democratic Party for years--social justice, the environment, equality, etc.--rather than start a new party, maybe the Green Party is an option.

In talking to many life-long Democrats, if Hillary is the nominee, they say that they will leave the Party and actively work against her becoming president (they are angry about the cheating, lying, the neo-liberalism, the hawkishness, etc.). The young people with whom I have talked say the same. The irony here is that the Democratic Party elite/establishment believe that the past informs the future: That given a choice between Trump (who may be shilling for Hillary) and Hillary, they will chose Hillary. However, many say that they prefer an orange narcissist over a psychopath. This is just what they are telling me. I take no side. But since these are liberals, they are not so easily swayed by fear tactics as the Republicans are.

[thereismore]

6. "orange narcissist over a psychopath"

[Dragonfli]

12. Orange Orangutan hybrid mutant narcissist, V NPD psychopath to be more precise.

Last edited Sat Apr 30, 2016, 10:39 PM - Edit history (2)

[Fawke Em]

26. LOL. I got called "mean" by a Hillarian on Twitter for saying

practically this.

They really can't understand why the old, "Trump is so much WORSE than Hillary" crap isn't working this year. I keep trying to explain that most of us see them both as equally horrifying for different reasons.

And then, after some back-and-forth, the Hillarian said, "...but Trump is a psychopath!", to which I responded, "So what? Hillary has Narcissistic Personality Disorder."

If Twitter had sound, I could have heard the HRC Tweeter gasp as she said that I was "so mean!"

[Dragonfli]

31. I just got hidden for posting Bernie Sanders record in Congress, the curtain has lifted folks,

hides are being used to hide public disclosure now of a candidates record, no pretense of Hurtful or abusive stuff any more.

This is what was censored:

I've posted this several times, but few appear to get the message, He was EXTREMELY EFFECTIVE.

So far I have posted this or variations of it (about 10 times):



The Right Wing implication appears to be that even with all his years of public service, a progressive like Bernie Sanders was too far to the left to accomplish anything.

That one has to be able to find the buypartisan way, in other words, adopt the least offensive GOP legislation as your own if you wish to accomplish anything, if one is not a member of the Republican party itself.

The problem with this bullshit GOP meme is that it is completely false, he's actually one of the most effective members of Congress, passing bills, of all sizes and shapes, that have reshaped American policy on key issues like poverty, the environment and health care.

[center][font size=3"]The Amendment King[/font][/center]

....Congress is not known to be a progressive institution lately, to say the least. Over the past few decades, the House of Representatives was only controlled by the Democrats from 2007 to 2010, and a flood of corporate money has quieted the once-powerful progressive movement that passed legislation moving the country forward between the New Deal era and the Great Society. Yet, as difficult as it may be to believe, a socialist from Vermont is one of its most accomplished members. ....

snip

....Sanders did something particularly original, which was that he passed amendments that were exclusively progressive, advancing goals such as reducing poverty and helping the environment, and he was able to get bipartisan coalitions of Republicans who wanted to shrink government or hold it accountable and progressives who wanted to use it to empower Americans.

Here are a few examples of the amendments Sanders passed by building unusual but effective coalitions:....

[font color="red"]Much more, but due to the three paragraph rule you will have to follow this link[/font]
I dare those that pretend the GOP meme is true and are spreading it for them, to read the article!

There are so many examples in fact that you really need to read the entire article as it completely dispels this current Right Wing myth that Bernie Sanders after all his time in Congress achieved almost nothing, when in fact he was literally one of the most effective members of Congress! Read the facts in the article itself, clearly the GOP is spreading lies about him, after all, who besides Rove and the GOP would use such lying sleazy bullshit tactics against someone that helped Democrats get as much progressive policy put into effect during his tenure?...

Not to say Hillary Clinton did not achieve some things during her six year hobby involved in legislating (the last two were spent campaigning and fundraising)

She managed to vote for the Patriot Act, for an illegal war, and even whip some votes with her passionate selling of the Bush/Cheney lies. (she deserves some credit for that,) and those of you that enjoy war should be and are rightfully quite proud of that.

As a Senator Clinton did get some things accomplished, Clinton sponsored three bills that became law: S.3145, S.3613, and S.1241. The first of these renamed a highway in New York state, the second renamed a post office in New York City, and the third established the Kate Mullany National Historic Site in Troy, New York and authorized funding to set the site up.

To be truly fair, she also tried to put an end to the epidemic of flag burning and ban some media, but these, her most favorite things were too hard for her to get done, she just couldn't get them passed, she may have lacked the chops to do it, but BUT SHE TRIED REAL HARD!

The United States Family Entertainment Protection Act (FEPA) was a bill introduced by Senator Hillary Clinton (D-NY), and co-sponsored by Senators Joe Lieberman (D-CT), Tim Johnson (D-SD) and Evan Bayh (D-IN) on November 29, 2005. The bill called for a federal mandate enforcement of the Entertainment Software Rating Board (ESRB) ratings.

Unsuccessfully unfortunately for the more puritan among us, sigh, if only she were more effective at passing such laws, we would finally be safe from cluster bombs, eerr.. I mean f-bombs (she voted against ending the use of child killing cluster bombs, my "misspeak" or my bad, if you prefer) she likes cluster bombs, so much so that after some donations to very, very, special charity, she made sure as SoS to sell cluster bombs to those altruistic rulers of Saudi Arabia! She deserves credit for that!

The kids just love playing with those rather than video games.

http://www.commondreams.org/views/2008/03/13/cluster-bombs-are-not-good-children-hillary

[center][font size="4"; color="8B0000"]Amendments Bernie got passed, stop "misspeaking!"
(The new euphemism for intentionally telling an untruth)[/font][/center

The following is a list of every substantive bill and amendment Sanders sponsored from the floor of Congress that became law (substantive meaning legislation renaming post offices is not included). Many of the roll-call amendments he passed with majority approval — like limiting the federal government’s ability to spy on people’s library records — were removed from bills when the House and Senate negotiated over the final legislative text and did not become law.

Because the list is derived from Congress’ official database of floor actions, it does not include achievements like his insertion of funding for veterans health care into an Iraq war spending bill because that occurred off of the House floor while the bill was in conference. Nor does the list include what is perhaps his most significant achievement — providing health care to an additional 10 million mostly low-income Americans by getting Senate majority leader Harry Reid to add $11 billion in funding for community health centers that provide care regardless of a person’s ability to pay to the 2010 Affordable Care Act in exchange for Sanders rallying liberal Democrats who were considering voting against the bill once conservative Democrats removed the public option.

Those who mistakenly believe that a President Sanders would be powerless in the face of a hostile Republican Congress should bear in mind that he managed to pass these bills and amendments in spite of Republican control of both the House (1995-2006) and the presidency (2001-2008). Furthermore, it was Republicans in the House and Senate who compromised with him (not the other way around) on major veterans legislation in 2014. His original bill expanding services for veterans and fixing the scandal-ridden Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) cost $17.3 billion. The price tag of the final compromise bill? $16.3 billion.

H.R.4206 (Cancer Registries Amendment Act) enacted as S. 3312 (Cancer Registries Amendment Act).

H.Amdt. 98 to H.R. 665 (Victims of Justice Act of 1995)

H.Amdt. 210 to H.R. 830 (Paperwork Reduction Act of 1995)

H.Amdt. 1203 to H.R. 3666 Departments of Veterans Affairs and Housing and Urban Development, and Independent Agencies Appropriations Act, 1997

H.J.Res.129 enacted as S.J.Res.38 (A joint resolution granting the consent of Congress to the Vermont-New Hampshire Interstate Public Water Supply Compact)

H.Amdt.174 to H.R.1757 (Foreign Affairs Reform and Restructuring Act of 1998)

H.Amdt.267 to H.R.2160 (Agriculture, Rural Development, Food and Drug Administration, and Related Agencies Appropriations Act, 1998)

H.Amdt.289 to H.R.2266 (Department of Defense Appropriations Act, 1998) -- National Guard Starbase program

H.Amdt.368 to H.R.2378 (Treasury and General Government Appropriations Act, 1998) -- Prohibit funds for the U.S. Customs Office from being used to allow the importation into the U.S. any material mined, produced, or manufactured by forced or indentured child labor.

H.Amdt.388 to H.R.2267 (Departments of Commerce, Justice, and State, the Judiciary, and Related Agencies Appropriations Act, 1998)

H.Amdt.569 to H.R.6 (Higher Education Amendments of 1998)

H.Amdt.614 to H.R.3694 (Intelligence Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 1999) -- Reduce the intelligence budget for fiscal year 1999 by 5% with an exemption for the CIA Retirement and Disability Fund.

H.Amdt.626 to H.R.10 (Financial Services Act of 1998) -- Require the Comptroller General to report to Congress regarding the efficacy and benefits of uniformly limiting any commissions, fees, markups, or other costs incurred by customers in the acquisition of financial products.

H.Amdt.706 to H.R.4101 (Agriculture, Rural Development, Food and Drug Administration, and Related Agencies Appropriations Act, 1999) -- Increase funding for nutrition programs for senior citizens by $10 million

H.Amdt.708 to H.R.4103 (Department of Defense Appropriations Act, 1999) -- Prohibit funding to be used to enter into or renew a contract with any company owned, or partially owned, by the People’s Republic of China or the People’s Liberation Army of the People’s Republic of China.

H.Amdt.724 to H.R.4104 (Treasury and General Government Appropriations Act, 1999) enacted as H.R. 2490 (Treasury and General Government Appropriations Act, 2000) -- National Archives and Records Administration improvements

H.Amdt.127 to H.R.1906 (Agriculture, Rural Development, Food and Drug Administration, and Related Agencies Appropriations Act, 2000)

H.Amdt.136 to H.R.1906 (Agriculture, Rural Development, Food and Drug Administration, and Related Agencies Appropriations Act, 2000) -- national pilot program to promote agritourism

H.Amdt.258 to H.R.2466 (Department of the Interior and Related Agencies Appropriations Act, 2000) enacted as H.R.3194 (Consolidated Appropriations Act, 2000) -- deficit reduction; and reduces fossil energy research and development funding

H.Amdt.442 to H.R.2684 (Departments of Veterans Affairs and Housing and Urban Development, and Independent Agencies Appropriations Act, 2000) -- health care services for veterans in rural areas

H.Amdt.791 to H.R.4577 (Consolidated Appropriations Act, 2001) -- (relating to the availability to the public of an invention and its benefits on reasonable terms)

H.Amdt.818 to H.R.4578 (Department of the Interior and Related Agencies Appropriations Act, 2001) -- weatherization assistance and energy conservation programs and reduce fossil fuel energy research and development programs

H.Amdt.238 to H.R.2590 (Treasury and General Government Appropriations Act, 2002) -- Prohibit the importation of goods made by forced or indentured child labor.

H.Amdt.376 to H.R.3061 (Departments of Labor, Health and Human Services, and Education, and Related Agencies Appropriations Act, 2002) -- relating to the availability to the public of an invention and its benefits on reasonable terms

H.Amdt.404 to H.R.3338 (Department of Defense and Emergency Supplemental Appropriations for Recovery from and Response to Terrorist Attacks on the United States Act, 2002) -- Provide $100 million for federally qualified community health centers.

H.Amdt.255 to H.R.2691 (Department of the Interior and Related Agencies Appropriations Act, 2004) -- Increase funding for weatherization assistance grants

H.Amdt.336 to H.R.2861 (Departments of Veterans Affairs and Housing and Urban Development, and Independent Agencies Appropriations Act, 2004) enacted as H.R.2673 (Consolidated Appropriations Act, 2004) -- Prohibit the use of funds in the bill to implement any policy prohibiting the Directors of the Veterans Integrated Service Networks from conducting outreach or marketing to enroll new veterans within their respective networks.

S.Amdt.737 to H.R.1591 (U.S. Troop Readiness, Veterans’ Care, Katrina Recovery, and Iraq Accountability Appropriations Act, 2007) -- fund weatherization assistance program

S.Amdt.1515 to H.R.6 (Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007) -- Establish an energy efficiency and renewable energy worker training program

S.Amdt.1525 to H.R.6 (Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007) -- use of solar hot water heaters in certain Federal buildings

S.Amdt.4384 to H.R.3221 (Housing and Economic Recovery Act of 2008) -- Increase specially adapted housing benefits for disabled veterans.

S.Amdt.1658 to S.1390 (National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2010) -- re child care available to deployed members of the reserve components of the Armed Forces

S.Amdt.2271 to H.R.2997 (Agriculture, Rural Development, Food and Drug Administration, and Related Agencies Appropriations Act, 2010) -- funds for the school community garden pilot program

S.Amdt.2601 to H.R.3326 (Department of Defense Appropriations Act, 2010) -- veteran outreach and reintegration services

S.Amdt.3738 to S.3217 (Restoring American Financial Stability Act of 2010) -- let the American people know the names of the recipients of over $2 trillion in taxpayer assistance from the Federal Reserve System

S.Amdt.306 to H.R.1 (American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009) -- Require recipients of TARP funding to meet strict H-1B worker hiring standard to ensure non-displacement of U.S. workers

S.Amdt.1658 to S.1390 (National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2010) -- report to Congress on financial assistance for child care available to deployed members of the reserve components of the Armed Forces.

S.Amdt.4280 to H.R.4899 (Supplemental Appropriations Act, 2010) -- make publicly available the contractor integrity performance database established under the Clean Contracting Act of 2008

S.2450 (Veterans’ Access to Care through Choice, Accountability, and Transparency Act of 2014) enacted as H.R.3230 (Veterans Access, Choice, and Accountability Act of 2014) -- VA reform bill

S.893 (Veterans’ Compensation Cost-of-Living Adjustment Act of 2013) -- increase rates of veterans’ disability compensation, additional compensation for dependents, etc.

S.Amdt.2146 to S.1471 (Alicia Dawn Koehl Respect for National Cemeteries Act) – re interring the remains and honoring the memory of a person in a national cemetery

[HooptieWagon]

32. I'm not surprised that got hidden.

Camp Bansalot is very thin-skinned, and posting Sanders legislative record is a totally destroys Clintons record of voting for an unnecessary war and naming post offices.

[Dragonfli]

36. I'm left wondering how we are supposed to discuss candidates during a primary when

discussing their accomplishments and records are hidden. I don't know if such is even possible under these apparent "new rules".

[senz]

38. Amazing. I just checked and my original OP is still out there.

I can't imagine why they hid yours, it's outrageous.

I have been thinking of putting a link to my OP in my sig line as well to as another one. This information, most of it from the excellent People's War blog, should be seen by everyone, as it stamps out the ugly lying meme that Bernie "hasn't done much."

Bernie Sanders' Legislative Accomplishments: A Partial List

FACT: Bernie Sanders Got More Done in the Senate than Hillary Clinton

Check out my sig line. You can do it too, if you want.

[Dragonfli]

11. The easiest way to restore proper values is the Sander's way, he would bring in so many new liberal

voices to the D party and a very enthusiastic (and very large) exterior voice to work from the bottom up to force the issue with the elected officials that are reluctant, or replace them via primary with those on board with a moral economy, a party of unity and equality, a party that again works for the working class and the poor and also for perhaps the most important part, a party free from corruption by fossil industries and able because of that to address our survival in the face of a man made environmental crisis.

Think of that as an in case of emergency, beak glass option. We must keep the political Revolution alive and we must stand together if we are to stand at all in a couple of generations.

If we don't get our collective shit together in time, it will be too late for the survival of our species let alone the happiness of our people, which is far easier to accomplish than the survival of the species bit and could be had simply via common sense solutions involving proper taxation policies and programs to help those in need get it, and those in need of work to find it, either by rebuilding an infrastructure that looks like it was hit by a war or millions of jobs created to enable a new sustainable energy future, best option being both simultaneously.

Income inequality, health problems (or access to treatment more accurately), equality issues and the general overall well-being of all of us can be had rather quickly, other countries have the blueprints already, as do we (at least partially, just by reviving New Deal, Great Society principles and modernizing them), you know what were once Democratic things, like that war against poverty that was cut short just as it began in favor of the New Democratic war on the poor (I am looking at you with shade Mr Welfare reform while saying this).

All we have to do is give up the greed and this self destructive concept of global neo-liberalism in favor of a Democracy with just the right mix of Social programs in it, this is called "a mixed economy" and has proven to work the best for all nations that use it, their happiness index (not making the term up, it's a real thing) is off the scale! They all get to see doctors, and yes, people are still allowed to become rich assholes. Such a mixed economy is much like what we had thirty years ago, but might more aptly be described as Democratic socialism and has nothing to do with Communism but everything to do with a Democracy that takes care of it's people rather than it's rich and global war efforts.

Sanders is giving us the golden chance to achieve a good life and the continued existence for our entire species in a future that will either be able to support our form of life or not if we continue down the path we are on.

If the party will not follow the revolution away from the greed of the few for the insanity of ridiculous wealth for a few (I mean seriously insane, like hoarding a million newspapers never read insane accumulation of money hoarding one could never ever spend insane) and away also away from fascistic dreams of military might and empire, by Mussolini nut jobs or arms dealers (now casting a shade glance at you neocon blood filthy bastards).

As a last resort effort at survival and a life not filled with death destruction, epidemic poverty and despair, we must stay together and grow on any soil not salted, one still hopes it is Democratic soil, but for that to happen, sigh, a great deal of corruption and purchased politicians must somehow be neutered.

Both the Neocon and the Neoliberal dreams are insanity, and both lead to nothing but pain, death and suffering for the vast majority of people, only .01%. or less will do well under these twin nightmares, but even they in the end will only have dead heirs to show as the fruit of their cray cray stupidity and greed because, we are taking a biosphere with us by following them to their Hell they think paradise.

Life will still be here yes, it will still evolve yes, but it will be another do-over of the Mother Earths many experiments with evolution, an experiment we are not suitably adapted to survive in. The sixth such extinction level event I believe (have to look it up to be sure).

Bottom line after the long ramble - the Revolution must happen and will happen, Reclaiming a party once on the proper path, the best option by far, failing that? Any means necessary (but let's keep it peaceful folks, we don't have time for bloodshed remember?)
I talked way long on that in the neocon portion of the ranting ramble pretending to be a post here.

[senz]

21. Best would be to take over the Democratic Party & restore it to its roots.

"orange narcissist over a psychopath" is really interesting. I think they're both narcissists but do not believe Trump is anywhere near as psychologically deformed as she is. They both scare me, but she scares me more. Plus, I find her supporters completely odious which adds to my already sky-high discomfort levels with her.

Also, I still think it's possible that Trump could be shilling for Hillary. They both are part and parcel of the 1%, whose interests they serve -- although Trump's criticisms of the TPP and his record of opposition to trade deals is interesting because the TPP is the next logical step in the corporate takeover of America. We've already seen Hill's all out enthusiasm for it, now swept under the rug, but I haven't heard of Trump championing it.

But both Hill and Trump have gone populist for the primaries.

It's so sad that we have to be discussing two such freakish individuals when we could, and maybe still can, have a genuinely good, and highly accomplished, people's candidate in Bernie Sanders.

[TheProgressive]

7. Well put Dragonfli...

Thanks for your well-written piece. Totally agree with you here.

Is it possible to re-take the Dem party from the (assuming successful) infiltrators (yes, the Clintons, DLC, and their lemmings)?
Don't know. If not, then we have a *leader* in Senator Sanders to move real progressive liberals forward.

Here is the test: I truely believe that, at the contested convention, Sanders will win the nomination and go onto winning the Presidency. I say this because the superdelegates know that the *people* want Sanders. For them to select Clinton, that is the signal that our legitimate Democratic Party has been taken over.

Time will tell. In the mean time, my undivided support is with Senator Sanders.

[DJ13]

10. I sure hope you are right

My only worry about your idea is ....

" I truely believe that, at the contested convention, Sanders will win the nomination and go onto winning the Presidency. I say this because the superdelegates know that the *people* want Sanders. For them to select Clinton, that is the signal that our legitimate Democratic Party has been taken over. "


Those superdelegates are true insiders, little more than leeches feeding off the same government tits as any republican.

They may not be easily swayed to look past their own self interests and act for the good of the country (not to mention the often mentioned Clinton payback that scares a great many in DC).

I hope you're right though!

[TheProgressive]

19. I hope I am right too...

America and the world are facing incredible problems. We cannot continue the self described 'ruling class for the ruling class'. If it isn't We the People for the People, there are going to be problems that the world has not seen on this massive scale.

And it is so easy to rectify: govern for the people, equality, no war, prosperity, health, liberty, and freedom. (Note: liberty and freedom are not republican words - they apply to all).

[Dragonfli]

13. I agree with your reply. /nt

[Scuba]

8. I only disagree that Hillary and the neo-libs are "moderate Republicans." They're not moderate.

As an example, cluster bombs aren't moderate.

[Dragonfli]

14. I did cover that (at least in my thoughts) by mentioning they were more hawkish, the moderate bit

is meant to reflect that part of the old Republican party that were sane on social issues, Even the DLC members thought that was the one thing they would keep from the original Democratic party (albeit for cynical reasons involving retaining some long time allies as voters).

ETA: Cluster bombs are so fucking evil (not the only extremely evil weapon, but the one you brought up) that if Satan were a real being, he would be a great fan of them, they kill a great many more civilians (disproportionately largely children) than they do soldiers, not only that, but such is so well known, the proponents of them themselves are well aware and can not claim ignorance of the fact!

[jwirr]

9. An absolutely beautiful description of what is happening.

I also hope that Hillary and the DLC finally admit that they are the NEW Repubicans and that the GOP in its fascist form disintegrates.

Then all of the small left leaning parties and the progressive arm of the Democratic and reform into a power that will act as you describe.

There are two links on here right now that need to be read on this idea. First: Professor Richard Wolff on Worker Coops: Theory if 21st Century Socialism

and second People Get Ready by Robert McChesney and John Nichols.

Both links talk about the future of the parties and Bernie's movement.

[Dragonfli]

16. Could you please edit your post to supply the links? I'd like them in this thread, also, I am

in an out of here lately due to some personal responsibilities and may not find them easily when I return.

[jwirr]

17. I am 74 years old and have never learned how to connect to

the links which is why I give titles. I am sorry. Both were on the front page video section this morning. That is all I can tell you.

[Dragonfli]

18. Thanks, I'll look in the video section for them, that is enough with the titles for me to find them

[greymouse]

27. jwirr

If you look up in the "url box", that is the thing near the top of the webpage that has text in it that starts something like http, click in it, type control a (hold down the ctrl key and type a) then type control c, that puts the link to the page in what's called the clipboard.

The clipboard is sort of an invisible place where stuff is stored. All you need to know is control c puts stuff in it and control v copies stuff from it to wherever your mouse is pointing.

So after you copy the url box contents to the clipboard, go to the messaqe you are composing, click the mouse where you want the link, and type control v

If you get stuck, send me a message.

[jwirr]

40. Thank you.

[bananas]

15. k&r nt

[bvar22]

20. I don't have much to add.

We live in interesting times (ancient Chinese curse).
The two dominant Political Parties ARE fracturing.
Where the pieces fall is anybody's guess, though I fear things will get worse before they get better.
I hope you and yours have taken precautions to protect yourselves.
My wife and I have.

I'm probably too old to see the final outcome,
but my commitment has remained the same as it has always been.
I continue to live by these values:

In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-evident. We have accepted, so to speak, a second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be[font size=3] established for all—regardless of station, race, or creed.[/font]

Among these are:

*The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;

*The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;

*The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;

*The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;

*The right of every family to a decent home;

*The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;

*The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;

*The right to a good education.

All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.

[font size=3]America's own rightful place in the world depends in large part upon how fully these and similar rights have been carried into practice for all our citizens.[/font]

Please note that the above are stipulated as Basic Human RIGHTS to be protected by our government,
and NOT as COMMODITIES to be SOLD to Americans by For Profit Corporations.

My vote and support WILL go to whoever BEST embodies these values.
I am too old and tired to again support the Least of the Worst.
Let the chips fall where they may.

[Dragonfli]

22. I believe as you, those things noted by FDR in the second bill of rights AKA Economic Bill of Rights

Should be a right, not a privilege, I believe in fact the Constitution should be amended to include them as such.

Please note that the above are stipulated as Basic Human RIGHTS to be protected by our government,
and NOT as COMMODITIES to be SOLD to Americans by For Profit Corporations.

Very well noted, unfortunately one of the three points of the neo-liberal triangle of goals includes making all of those (in fact everything now socialized, including police forces, prisons, firehouses, education, they list goes on...) privatized money makers, they actually even ruminate on plans to make water itself a commodity for profit (and your well a form of poaching), I have a somewhat crazy suspicion they would love to find a way to privatize and sell the very air we breathe.

I am aware from many old posts that would date us both as elders of the board as well as likely elderly in life, the lengths and steps you have taken to protect your family as best you can, I will not go into detail as you have chosen to be "out of the way" and as off the grid as possible regarding meeting your basic survival needs independently (hope your garden is doing well) as a central method of that survival. I am very glad you had the foresight when you did, to do as you've done.

I unfortunately had a very ill and dying wife ten years ago, we had similar plans, but alas, even though well insured at the time, I had to cash out everything, our savings, my 401k, maxed all my credit cards, took on more debt and sold everything of value instead, fighting her illness, it nearly worked which is just another way of saying I lost her anyway but the efforts increased her chances dramatically.

The bills pile up quickly even with Insurance, which many idiots think is the same thing as health care, rather than a vampire gatekeeper designed to reduce as much care as possible, while increasing profits as much as possible.

Universal health insurance is an example of the opposite of "The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health" but rather an excellent example of using healthcare as COMMODITIES to be SOLD to Americans by For Profit Corporations.

So, we were unable to prepare, but because of what I now consider lucky, what I would normally consider unlucky, my own health is deteriorating and I will likely be with my wife again within but a few years (whether it be in eternal darkness of non-existence or a different plain only the already passed know)

I will not likely see the end of this play, but the beginnings of the end, or if sanity prevails, the beginning of a new era of enlightenment that will insure such rights we speak of in the voice of FDR's ghost.

Like you, my criteria is the same regarding my values and my vote, whether or not it is counted is another discussion entirely.

[senz]

24. Good comment. Esp. like your point about the commodification of basic necessities.

Necessities are in a different category from discretionary spending and properly belong to the realm of the "commons," where we all chip in a little to cover everyone. We are thus a stronger more stable country. Michael Moore's Where to Invade Next is a good example of how that works.

The profiteers can enjoy the arena of discretionary spending -- with appropriate regulation, of course.

[Dragonfli]

25. Your grasp of the commons and its place in a civilized community is very astute, I commend you

Necessities are in a different category from discretionary spending and properly belong to the realm of the "commons," where we all chip in a little to cover everyone. We are thus a stronger more stable country. Michael Moore's Where to Invade Next is a good example of how that works.

The profiteers can enjoy the arena of discretionary spending -- with appropriate regulation, of course.

You appear to understand the well run mixed economy quite well, yes, there is a lace for regulated Capitalism, but the commons belong to all and are for the benefit and the good of all.

I have not seen Michael Moore's new film, but have heard good things, unfortunately my income at the moment is literally zero, I live of EBT and a small voucher for rent and one for electric, but no actual cash income whatsoever. I also have no natural gas supply (no income for it)

So due to lack of funds I will have to wait for him to place it in public domain to view it.

To protect your family, find a place with it's own water supply (non-corruptible) and preferably out of the way and learn to grow and raise your own food stuffs for yourself and your family.

This and variations of it are all that can be done.

[bvar22]

33. Oh, Man.

Sorry to hear about your wife and health problems.
I am having to confront my own aging and mortality.
I can't believe I have been posting regularly at DU for 15 years,
or that I moved out here 10 years ago.
10 years makes a lot of difference. I am aging, (how the fuck did THAT happen?) and can't keep up with the things I used to be able to do.

My thoughts and heart is with you tonight, my old friend.

[Dragonfli]

34. I am at peace with my own reality, I worry deeply about the younger generations however.

None of this is fair to them, we grew up in a time where opportunities were available and the threat of extinction did not (or was not known until the 80's the earliest I recall) hang above our heads like the sword of Damocles as it does theirs.

They have little to work for but poverty, and not much hope for future happiness.


Funny thing, it seems as though just yesterday I saw a young vibrant man in the mirror, aging happens, but towards the end it appears as if those years passed in the blink of an eye. We adapt, we survive, and will do so until our end is decided by nature as with all things.


I wish the best to you and your wife my friend. Stay well. Keep strong.

[senz]

23. "I hope you and yours have taken precautions to protect yourselves."

This will be a particular concern if a Republican or a Third Way "Democrat" gets into office.

Is there a list of suggestions for those who are not wealthy and well-connected to prepare and protect ourselves if, as you predict, things get worse before they get better?

Also, is your quote from Roosevelt's January, 1944 Second Bill of Rights speech?

I, too, am old and tired and cannot see perpetuating the present system by voting for the least of the worst, but I also fear that not voting at all perpetuates the current system, as well. I guess that leaves protest votes ...

[greymouse]

28. senz

If Bernie is not the nominee, I suggest writing in Bernie if your state counts writein votes, otherwise I suggest voting Green. It helps the Greens stay on the ballot, and who knows they may become our third party.

[senz]

41. Yes, I understand this option. Thanks.

[bvar22]

30. Yes. The above was a part of FDR's State of the Union Address, 1944.

It is also the earliest official statement of the Democratic Party that I can find that establishes these rights "for all—regardless of station, race, or creed."

My wife and I consider ourselves very lucky. In 2006, we sold everything, cashed out everything,
paid the penalties, paid off all debts, and bought inexpensive, Bubble-Proof property in rural Arkansas.

We live there now, drink from an Ozark Spring in the back yard, grow a good percentage of our own food, keep Honey Bees and chickens, and focus on local humanitarian issues.
We are surrounded by National Forest, and game is plentiful. We don't hunt because we are not hungry enough, but if that happens, we have the tools and skills to do so.

We buy nothing new if we can avoid it, and prefer to buy 2nd hand or salvage, and make it work, or do without. We participate in a surprisingly active rural Black Market, bartering food and services for other items or services.

Our yearly goal is to produce more,
consume Less,
reduce our Carbon Footprint,
and figure new ways to keep our labor and sweat from buying munitions or going into the pockets of Wall Street Bankers.

There are a lot more details, but that is the gist of it.
The last two years have been very tough due to record drought and heat,
and some age related health problems.

This is not for everybody.
My wife & I have no dependents, are relatively healthy, and enjoy hard work.


---nvar22 & Starkraven
Living well on a low taxable income
and stuff we learned in the 60s.

[senz]

42. I well remember the Whole Earth Catalog

In fact, I might have one or two in a closet somewhere. Were you and your wife contributors to it?

I remember when, about 1969-70, people were heading out to the country to learn to live more simply off the land and sometimes in communes. I had an opportunity to join Stephen Gaskin's caravan but didn't, and in retrospect know it was the right decision. Of course I baked whole grain bread, grew bean/alfalfa sprouts, made yogurt, and learned to cook tofu and tempeh and various dishes from vegetarian cookbooks like The Farm, Tasajara, and Frances Moore Lappe's Diet for a Small Planet. During the seventies, my future husband and I were part of a "food conspiracy" where members ordered what they wanted and some members drove out to local farms, dairies, etc. to make bulk purchases which we divvied up amongst ourselves. It was a very cool thing that could be done again.

Most years I have a vegetable garden and try to live in an environmentally sensitive way, albeit imperfectly. I'd love to have done what you and your wife did, especially would have loved to have chickens and a goat or two, but my husband took no interest in the yard or the household or anything practical, and if we'd moved out to the country I don't think I could have managed alone. I was employed full time, went back to grad school, volunteered, etc., so time and energy were limited.

I live in a quiet urban residential neighborhood. What I've done for basic security is pay off the mortgage, save money, and stay out of debt. Am seriously considering solar panels. Don't know whether to keep the fireplace as is or convert it to pellets or gas. Have been hit with some physical setbacks, have very little physical strength and doubt I could grow enough vegetables to live on. I still keep dried beans & legumes in jars as sort of a food backup. I know preppers keep all kinds of dried stuff but so far it doesn't feel necessary.

I'll bet there are lots of people a similar situation. If there were a huge crash or societal breakdown, I don't know what I'd do. I have a few close friends in a similar situation.

Maybe you and/or your wife could write a book for people like me.

[greymouse]

29. Dragonfli greymouse

Two minds with the same thoughts.

[villager]

35. It's true we just have "Rockefeller Republicans" and "Deranged Fascists"...

...where once we had, respectively, "Democrats," on the Center/Left, and "Republicans," (in the Center/Right - Right).

Now the void is where the old Democratic party used to be since, as you've noted, they are, for all intents/purposes, what moderate Republicans used to be.

It will be interesting to see how that void is finally, at last, filled...

[Dragonfli]

37. We do indeed live in "interesting times" as the Chinese proverb goes. /nt

[chknltl]

39. KnR Thank You. nt

[JudyM]

43. K&R. Would rec it twice if I could for the good discussion following, as well. Nt