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Gregorian

(23,867 posts)
Thu Jul 23, 2015, 03:25 PM Jul 2015

Here is why Bernie Sanders is so important.

Last edited Thu Jul 23, 2015, 08:35 PM - Edit history (1)

Every candidate is working within the system.

Whether it's state capitalism (regulation, institutions, subsidizing things like health care), or private capitalism (privatizing the postal service), the workers are still being kept from participating in the fruits of their efforts. This is the fundamental issue we've been facing. And we go back and forth between private and public, hoping for something to change. What is happening is that no matter who is in control, since they are being the recipients of our labor (our surplus), they will always use that to beat us down. No matter whether it's private or public capitalism, we have already given the power to those in control. We cannot win; we will never have a civilized country under those conditions.

However, what what Bernie brings to the table is change that is systemic. In a nutshell, he wants us to be participants in the process, unlike how we are now, even with unions! It doesn't matter how we organize if we're still giving our power (money) away to the boss. It's just naive to think it will improve if we give our power away.

Capitalism has this inherent conflict that pits us all against each other. Communism and socialism can also be the same, as long as the workers give their surplus away to the boss.

What I believe Bernie wants to accomplish is a shift to a system where we are not letting this small group of people hold the power. Our power. It is OUR POWER.

And it's not some life altering change. This is already happening in companies today. Profit sharing is an example. If you've ever seen a company that utilizes profit sharing, you might notice a different kind of attitude in the overall feeling of the company.

Until now, this has not happened, that I know of. And no economists are talking about surplus. That's where this change revolves. Russia failed to do that after their revolution, and look where it ended up.

I'm posting this because it's all we have. I don't care what the other candidates say they're going to do, but if they aren't willing to move away from the context, the actual systemic problem our country is founded around, we'll still be wondering where we went wrong, in 2020.

Now to be honest I am not sure whether Bernie is headed down this path. Knowing what I know about who he is, I am certain enough to post this in the Bernie forum. One thing is certain, this is the most important issue we face. This is why regulations are undone, why we are invading countries, and in fact why there are so many murders in this country. Conflict.

The whole situation of 1% and 99% is based on this economic construction that we are enduring. If we don't change it, we'll still be seeing the economic inequality. There is one way to turn that around. And that is if we change to a system that allows the workers to participate in the process.

We have the power, but have been giving it away. Until we change our system, we'll just keep handing our profits to the boss. And living with conflict between us.

24 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Here is why Bernie Sanders is so important. (Original Post) Gregorian Jul 2015 OP
Bush. Clinton. Bush. Clinton. They’re just spokes on a wheel. rbnyc Jul 2015 #1
We must stop the exploitation of workers. Gregorian Jul 2015 #2
I agree! rbnyc Jul 2015 #3
Excellent post - TBF Jul 2015 #4
It promotes racism, drug use, violence, poverty... Gregorian Jul 2015 #6
Worker owned Co-Ops Cosmic Kitten Jul 2015 #17
All I know is that Bernie is a sea change and by far the best candidate. merrily Jul 2015 #5
Yes! justaddh2o Jul 2015 #7
That's right. He's one of the only ones talking about this critical ommission from the discussion. Gregorian Jul 2015 #8
Excellent Points - No Citizen Need Settle For The Lesser Of Two Corporate Evils - Go Bernie Go cantbeserious Jul 2015 #9
Some Democrats Have Bought Into The Trickle Down Economics Meme cantbeserious Jul 2015 #10
K&R..... daleanime Jul 2015 #11
Thank you so much dreamnightwind Jul 2015 #12
Thanks for posting confirmation that Bernie is indeed on this path. Gregorian Jul 2015 #14
Great, good OP you have here dreamnightwind Jul 2015 #16
These are all good ideas. Gregorian Jul 2015 #18
For what it's worth... AOR Jul 2015 #19
Thanks. I'm still trying to distill and condense the ideas into a new post. Gregorian Jul 2015 #20
Did you ever rework and post elsewhere? dreamnightwind Aug 2015 #21
Thanks. I'm still trying to learn and condense. Gregorian Aug 2015 #22
OK, I'll watch for it dreamnightwind Aug 2015 #23
It's an important principle Babel_17 Jul 2015 #13
It's time to redsign the employee/employer relationship. It's time to evolve to the next phase. Gregorian Jul 2015 #15
Great post. Found via someone's rec page hence the late rec n/t Catherina Aug 2015 #24

rbnyc

(17,045 posts)
1. Bush. Clinton. Bush. Clinton. They’re just spokes on a wheel.
Thu Jul 23, 2015, 03:39 PM
Jul 2015

This one’s on top, then that one’s on top, and on and on it spins, crushing those on the ground. We're not going to stop the wheel. We're going to break the wheel.

#?Sanders2016‬ ‪#?MotherOfDragonsForBernie‬

Gregorian

(23,867 posts)
2. We must stop the exploitation of workers.
Thu Jul 23, 2015, 04:06 PM
Jul 2015

Everyone else is a capitalist who is not going to alter that relationship.

And what's interesting is if I look at the net worth of almost all of the candidates, and all of those in Washington, they're all part of the elite who are exploiting us. Why would they ever want to change the system.

It's not democratic except in the sense that we can vote for the most popular exploiter.

What's more, you won't find any text books talking about this. And even more, we are full of institutions that indoctrinate us into believing this system works. It doesn't, and it's way past time to change it.

I think the most important thing is that it doesn't have to be huge change. It doesn't need unrest, like the Pope is even implying. We can turn this country into a compassionate one without the inherent conflict by taking simple steps. I think this is where Bernie is headed. We're talking about Democratic Socialism. It is a good thing.

Gregorian

(23,867 posts)
6. It promotes racism, drug use, violence, poverty...
Thu Jul 23, 2015, 05:05 PM
Jul 2015

And no one seems to know about this. I think it's the most important topic there is for us as a society. The problem is, we've been hidden in the dark from the simple simple problem.

We must be allowed to participate, and keep the surplus, instead of giving it to the boss.

It's time to fire the bosses, and have the workers BE the board of directors.

Cosmic Kitten

(3,498 posts)
17. Worker owned Co-Ops
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 05:23 PM
Jul 2015


We need a program or policies
to enable and promote community
and worker based Co-Ops!

When wokers have equal say
and everyone is pulling togher
amazing things can happen.

justaddh2o

(69 posts)
7. Yes!
Thu Jul 23, 2015, 06:19 PM
Jul 2015

If I'm understanding you correctly, this is what Richard Wolff talks about as well and it makes sense to me, too. We need "worker-directed" companies as well as profit sharing. I've read that Valve (the video game company) operates that way. I hope it's the future for all companies.

Gregorian

(23,867 posts)
8. That's right. He's one of the only ones talking about this critical ommission from the discussion.
Thu Jul 23, 2015, 07:06 PM
Jul 2015

Wolff is a wealth of information on this critical and pivotal topic. Everything seems to follow from how the surplus is organized.

Once you see this fact, the whole system is revealed. I spent years uncomfortable with how the employer/employee relationship worked. But once it was pointed out that it's based on exploitation, it all came right into my conscious. And that's the only way we can control it.

We can have revolutions, and all the rest, and still fail, if we don't turn this one thing around.

What's revealing is how Wolff points out the 150 year period of rising income, right up to the 70's. And once you know that tidbit, it becomes obvious what happened to our society.

We're so far down the road after the 70's, we just cannot afford to continue. And even when wages were rising we were being exploited, but could tolerate it due to the rising wages.

Also what he points out is how when wages failed to continue rising, the capitalist owners of our society decided not to pay us more, but to instead LOAN US MONEY. And the rest is history. Now we work more in order to consume the same amount.

If people understood this, we'd see a lot different topics being posted on this forum. But the problem is, through indoctrination, we have been taught to pretty much ignore this topic.

dreamnightwind

(4,775 posts)
12. Thank you so much
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 06:04 AM
Jul 2015

It's great for people to advocate fiercely and with determination to better their life situations, as BLM is doing.

Without system analysis, such efforts make a lot of noise but don't address the root problems.

Racism certainly has roots that exist independently of our economic system, and they are right to try to better that situation.

But the problem is much much deeper, far worse really, than just that. We have huge system design problems which are causing our nation to fail, and our species to plunge madly towards extinction, for real. It effects people of color more than any of us, but it tragically effects all of us, and there is no overstating the degree of those effects.

Bernie is indeed heading down the path you wrote about. I've heard him speak about it many times, and not just recently, it's one of his fundamental issues. An example:

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/recent-business/worker-owned-businesses

Worker-Owned Businesses

Monday, July 23, 2012

Employee ownership increases employment, productivity, sales, and wages. Unfortunately, the federal government has not done enough for employee ownership to realize its full potential. Sen. Bernie Sanders on Monday introduced legislation that would expand employee ownership so, he said, "we can create stronger companies in Vermont and throughout this country, prevent job loss, and improve working conditions for struggling employees."

Under one bill in Sanders' package, the U.S. Department of Labor would provide funding to states to establish and expand employee ownership centers. These centers would provide training and technical support for programs promoting employee ownership and participation throughout the country. This legislation is modeled on the success of the Vermont Employee Ownership Center which has done an excellent job in educating workers, retiring business owners, and others about the benefits of worker ownership.

A second bill would create a U.S. Employee Ownership Bank to provide loans to help workers purchase businesses through an employee stock ownership plan or a worker-owned cooperative. More at link.


edit to add: I wish your OP was also posted in GD-Primaries (if it is not, didn't check), it's a discussion we need to have.

Gregorian

(23,867 posts)
14. Thanks for posting confirmation that Bernie is indeed on this path.
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 12:41 PM
Jul 2015

I honestly think that as we look at the evolution of economics, it has gone from slavery, to feudalism, to where we are today. And I strongly suspect that racism has at least some component of slavery attached to it.

I'm thrilled that you posted your link. It just confirms how incredibly important Bernie's goals are.

The reason this is the single most important topic is that everything in a society is at the mercy of who holds the surplus, and how it is arranged.

Oh, I need to edit my op, because I've not given enough attention to the notion that by following our present arrangement, we have simply given the few "owners" of our employee/employer relationship the means by which to continue and strengthen that situation in perpetuity.

We've given our power away. It's just that simple.

I've thought about how this can be turned around, and I'm surprised at the lack of replies with criticism to that effect. My belief is that where there's a will there's a way. I say that because we far outnumber the business owners and politicians. It can be done. But it cannot be done any other way. We've already seen the days of acceptable capitalism. They're long gone now.

dreamnightwind

(4,775 posts)
16. Great, good OP you have here
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 05:14 PM
Jul 2015

"I've thought about how this can be turned around, and I'm surprised at the lack of replies with criticism to that effect. My belief is that where there's a will there's a way. I say that because we far outnumber the business owners and politicians. It can be done. But it cannot be done any other way. We've already seen the days of acceptable capitalism. They're long gone now. "

Pretty sad how much energy at this site goes toward in-figting and how little of it goes to analysis of the nature of our problems and the system fixes we need to reclaim our government and our country from the forces of big money.

The Populist Reform group sometimes has good discussions on these issues, and sometimes things will pop up in a GD post too.

There are so many layers to the onion of corporate control and exploitation that it can be reasonably attacked from many different angles.

One of them is trying to break the connection of big money to our politicians, so they would be free to represent our interests instead of the interests of their large donors. This is of course very difficult, and there are a lot of good groups working on it. One of them is rootstrikers.

Reversing Citizen's United is important, it would help, but not fix the problem, big money had already captured our system even before Citizen's United, and that ruling has just made the problem worse.

We really need methods to either remove big money from the system (probably requires a constitutional amendment) or to come up with strategies to defeat it so underfunded candidates can have a fighting chance.

One such effort is this legislation (see below), there are call-your-senator efforts going on right now to get them onboard. I don't know a whole lot about it, but from the surface it looks good. It''s similar to a hair-brained idea of my own I've posted about a couple of times, which was to come up with a public pool of money, I called it crowd-sourcing, that could be drawn from when elected officials are in a position that they are going to take the donations that later dictate their policy efforts. I had envisioned it being a dynamic entity, a politician who wanted to do the right thing yet didn't want to unilaterally disarm in the money race could come to that group, and say "I don't want to take money from these guys, it will have their strings attached, they are interested in such and such an issue (a pipeline, a reguation to remove, whatever it is), can you help me out? Then the group I was imagining would put it out to the crowd-sourcing, posting the funders, the issue involved, the elected official(s) who would like to NOT take their money but need it to be viable in our system, and a request would go out to the "crowd" saying if we care about this issue, we can chip in and this politician will take our money instead of the corporate money, with OUR strings attached. Sorry to be so long-winded, a little difficult to explain. Not the best solution, perhaps, but a practical approach given the current money = speech SCOTUS position.

So to wrap it back around, the legislation I started talking about does something very similar to all of that, might be worth checking out, I only recently heard about it:

http://everyvoice.org/press-release/fair-elections-now-act-reintroduced-big-donors-play-outsized-role-ahead-2016

Here’s how the bill would work:

To encourage greater participation, everyday Americans could qualify for a $25 refundable My Voice tax credit for small donations to congressional campaigns.
Qualified candidates who prove their viability by raising a large number of small contributions from their home state would be eligible to receive a base grant to help fund their campaigns.
After qualifying, candidates who choose to participate must limit their contributions to $150 or less. Those donations would be matched, up to a limit, by six dollars for every dollar raised. For example, a $40 donation becomes $280.
Candidates who qualify for Fair Elections funding can receive additional funds to ensure they have the resources to compete against outside attacks.


I think it also has conditions so they couldn't be taking the grant money AND the corrporate money.


So that's one line of attack.

Another is money-shaming, I think we could do a lot more in that direction, and the U.S. public is receptive to this, they know it's the root of the problem, they just feel overwhelmed with all of the info-overload and can't take enough time from their lives to actively read and learn enough to see who is funding candidates and what the funders want in return for those donations (plus the two main political parties do their best to have only captured candidates on the ballot). A good money-shaming effort could do that research for them, tying money to issues and tying those issues to the candidates who are taking that money. We could work to expose that activity and stigmatize candidates who take the corporate money as tainted, which is the absolute truth of the matter, they are tainted and captured by their funding.

The worker-owned business approach is a great place to put energy, and to a smaller extent profit-sharing is good too.

Tax policy can do a lot of good, we can make it too expensive for corporations to do the wrong thing, and we can encourage worker-owned businesses through the tax code. I believe Bernie would do so.

Exposing the poor conditions of american lives compared to citizens in Democratic Socialist countries is also a place to put energy. Most americans are not aware of how bad things are here compared to the european and scandinavian nations, in important metrics such as infant mortality, wealth inequality, incarceration. government and regulatory capture, job loss through offshoring (we need tariffs or some other mechanisms to prevent this), how many more hours we work than europeans, single payer health care systems, percent of our taxes that goes to "defense" and "security", police brutality, social safety nets to take care of our people, cost of education, the list goes on and on, most people are unaware that it is better elsewhere. Another area where Bernie is way better than anyone else. We can do more to educate the public, it doesn't need to revolve around Bernie, candidates come and go, we need to increase understanding of these things as much as we can to get the public on our side rather than pointing fingers at each other as "takers" while the corporations get richer and use their divide-and-conquer strategies as gladiator games for their amusement.

Non-controlled media efforts are also a place to energy. For most people, most of what they know about what's going on in the nation and the world is just what the corporate media wants them to know. With the internet we increasingly have the opportunity to change that.

We need to put energy into globalizing labor organization. That would make a HUGE difference. Many obstaces to getting that done, would be great to do so though.

Sorry to go on so, lengthy posts often don't get read. I care about all of these things and want to spark more energy towards these kinds of approaches, and learn more from others. Thanks again for your OP.

Gregorian

(23,867 posts)
18. These are all good ideas.
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 02:11 PM
Jul 2015

I think what Bernie is proposing is too frightening for people. We've been so indoctrinated into our present way of viewing labor relationships, that this seems like a gamble.

It's so clear to me now. And what is also interesting is listening to Max Keiser this week. He's also discussing the indicators that show how capitalism has finally run it's course. To continue on like this is like ignoring a house on fire. People just feel like asking someone for a job, and letting them run the show is how it works. We're actually moving back towards feudalism. And the income inequality is very much like that.

This is all about the discovery Marx made. And it's why Marx is demonized and minimized. There is absolutely zero being taught in schools regarding Marx's discovery. And it's not a theory. It's a fact. People are being mistreated and omitted from participating in the very employment situation they are in. This is the crux of it all. Workers are being treated just a bit better than slaves. And in some cases, just the same.

Quantitative easing is all about lowing wages.

Bernie knows these things, and we have a rare opportunity in this election to begin turning this arrangement around. Who controls the value that the workers add. That's what this is all about. We can regulate, and change the decorations on the walls, but in the end the only thing that will turn this capitalist problem around is rearranging who controls the fruits of our labor.

I'm amazed that this thread was kept off the greatest page. I'm going to rework my thoughts, and post this elsewhere because it's time people see just how much better their world can be. This is one of those revelations that comes once or twice in a lifetime. I finally saw the light. It's odd how I have always felt poorly about the situation, but never consciously saw it until now. I too was repelled from Marx by how he has been tarnished in our society. All but nonexistent, because it threatened those who knew they could keep this racket going.

 

AOR

(692 posts)
19. For what it's worth...
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 12:05 AM
Jul 2015

I think you're on the right track in this post Gregorian. Without our labor nothing is possible. Nothing gets built. Nothing gets done. If workers - in mass - cross their arms the ruling class is in serious trouble and they know that. Everything comes to a halt. They will do everything in their power to stop that kind of mass organization and solidarity and they are doing a damn good job at dividing us. This is the main point of were our fightback must begin. It's about more than elections. A message and a different narrative like Bernie is providing is good but it will take more than that. The only question is how much longer the suffering, exploitation, and devastation will be tolerated by the workers and the struggling. Each time capitalist crisis rears it's head more and more of us are ground into the dirt. Nobody who is just a worker is immune.


This might be dated but I'll put it up anyway. Have some problems with some things Ralph Chaplin (IWW) did and he lost his way but you can't beat this rallying cry.

Solidarity Forever

When the union's inspiration through the workers' blood shall run,
There can be no power greater anywhere beneath the sun;
Yet what force on earth is weaker than the feeble strength of one,
But the union makes us strong.

Solidarity forever,
Solidarity forever,
Solidarity forever,
For the union makes us strong

Is there aught we hold in common with the greedy parasite,
Who would lash us into serfdom and would crush us with his might?
Is there anything left to us but to organize and fight?
For the union makes us strong.

It is we who plowed the prairies; built the cities where they trade;
Dug the mines and built the workshops, endless miles of railroad laid;
Now we stand outcast and starving midst the wonders we have made;
But the union makes us strong.

All the world that's owned by idle drones is ours and ours alone.
We have laid the wide foundations; built it skyward stone by stone.
It is ours, not to slave in, but to master and to own.
While the union makes us strong.

They have taken untold millions that they never toiled to earn,
But without our brain and muscle not a single wheel can turn.
We can break their haughty power, gain our freedom when we learn
That the union makes us strong.

In our hands is placed a power greater than their hoarded gold,
Greater than the might of armies, magnified a thousand-fold.
We can bring to birth a new world from the ashes of the old
For the union makes us strong.

Ralph Chaplin

Gregorian

(23,867 posts)
20. Thanks. I'm still trying to distill and condense the ideas into a new post.
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 03:17 PM
Jul 2015

I'm not sure people see the basic concept behind this. It isn't something we talk about. In fact, it's kept very quiet. It's a lot like how we have been duped into thinking we need a low fat high carbohydrate diet. It's exactly the opposite of what we should have as a diet, and is in fact killing us. Yet every morning, out come orange juice and breakfast rolls. Not to confuse the issue, but it's voluntary. We submit to the "owners".

The revolution is trivial. We simply say no more working in this arrangement. Then the government would step up their violence, and send out the guns. But this can be done in a peaceful way, and that's what I see with Bernie. The more I hear him talk, the more I realize he gets this. He's not direct and open about it because if he dared to mention Marx, the whole world would flatten him. Marx! The devil. No, it's just like carbs: time to knock them off and get healthy.

Babel_17

(5,400 posts)
13. It's an important principle
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 09:15 AM
Jul 2015

Progress is a team effort. Our world is built on the labor and suffering of the incredible number of generations that came before us. When the wealth of our world increases it's incumbent on us to see everybody gets a piece. And that means no part of the world left behind.

Gregorian

(23,867 posts)
15. It's time to redsign the employee/employer relationship. It's time to evolve to the next phase.
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 12:50 PM
Jul 2015

No employer is going to hire someone who produces just as much as they get paid. In capitalism that just doesn't make sense. And that is the precise thing that has cause our present situation: an employer who gets rich by taking from the employees. It never made sense to me until I realize there is a better way. Get rid of the boss. We all become employees and employers at the same time. We then get to keep what we earn.

There's a lot of effort and ideas that need to go into this. It's not fully thought out even yet. Who gets how much, and so on.

Even rock and roll stars are on this capitalist road. Look at all the super rich rock stars with jets and copters and chateaus. That money came from somewhere. It starts to get scary to look at the details, but when we just stop and ask who is getting ripped off, then we can start to solve the problem. You don't see any janitors who cleaned up after the shows riding around in their own limousines. But that's a bit far down the road. We aren't even on the road yet.

Thank goodness for Bernie. Oh, and one more thing: this is the reason (even as it is an unconscious one) why we are going to see votes for Bernie coming from not just the liberal minded, but from the right. That reason is, we've all been ripped off, right and left alike.

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