Honest Question for Sanders and Warren Supporters

[Vidal]

OK, let me be honest: I like Elizabeth more than Bernie.

And, I have lots of friends who were and are huge Bernie fans.

The discussion I've had is this: they tell me that Bernie's ideas are almost the same as Elizabeth's policies and proposals.

But my initial reaction is: NO, that's not true.

It seems to me that Bernie is talking about mostly the same stuff he talked about in 2016.

It also seems to me that Elizabeth has a lot of bold, new progressive ideas that Bernie doesn't have.

Are my friends right, that there is not much difference between the two?

I think this is important because over the next year i see these two as competing against each other for the progressive votes in the Dem. primaries.

[demmiblue]

1. OP's that start with "Honest Question..."

[Cha]

89. So?

[aikoaiko]

100. Exactly.

[demmiblue]

147. It is embarrassing that some can't suss out the true nature of OP's like this.

Hell, I cant even see half the posts. Drama llamas gonna drama.

[Kurt V.]

151. the only reason you're in this thread is to add drama. Correct?

[nolabear]

144. I've done it. And it was because I wasn't trying to fight.

Sometimes DU is a great resource. I don’t think it’s a good idea to stop that before it starts.

[demmiblue]

145. I'm smart enough to figure out what flamebait is... especially when there is a pattern.

It was obvious when it was first posted, and it is even more obvious now looking at some of the OP's comments down thread (which I hadn't looked at until now because I have this thread trashed).

[nolabear]

148. That's really too bad. It's exhausting enough without flame bait.

[Eliot Rosewater]

2. Imagine how much more sense this would all make if we could only talk about DEMOCRATS

while discussing DEMOCRATIC primaries.

[JonLP24]

12. He votes more like a Democrat than most Democrats

He isn't Joe Manchin or Krysten Sinema who are actually Democrats but vote like moderate conservatives.

[KPN]

39. Yeah, there's definitely a built in inconsistency to what

strikes me as not vastly different from tribalistic thinking like “you’re either with us or against us”. At the same time, their argument that Bernie criticizes the Democratic Party is not incorrect (well, criticizes is putting it nicely). But I have to say also that I don’t often disagree with what I view as constructive criticism.

[JonLP24]

43. I don't think we as a party should ban intraparty criticism

You're right & I agree.

[question everything]

76. Intraparty? Sanders is not part of the party!

Why is it so difficult to understand? So, yes, he votes with the Democrats but as long as he has the (I) after his name and, worse, is playing games in the Vermont primaries, he is not a Democrat. And all the Sanderistas here that supported him in 2016 and now should stop to consider how much his presence in 2016 contributed to our loss.

He pedaled similar ideas as Trump - appealing to the "forgotten" working class. Thus, when he was no longer in the race, many of his supporters - and it was confirmed recently - chose the next best thing.

Why, why are you supporting him? He himself admits that many of his idea are now carried by other candidates so why using this campaign as a play ground for his ego?

[Vidal]

80. They don't get it

Every time I talk to the rabid Sanders supporters they seem so oblivious to the facts that you discuss here.

One thing I've researched is that running for president made Sanders a multi-millionaire. And that explains why he's running again this time.

He has a great ability to convince hundreds of thousands of people to send him money.

[Cha]

90. +1

Oh yeah.

[BannonsLiver]

48. Im pretty sure those 2 voted for the latest round of Russia sanctions

Bernie did not. I’ll take those who realize our democracy is under attack versus those who bury their heads in the sand for whatever reason.

[JonLP24]

51. Krysten Sinema voted to confirm Barr

Not sure about Manchin. She also takes money from pro Israel interest groups.

[totodeinhere]

146. Lots of Democrats including members of the leadership in both the House and the

the Senate accept money from pro-Israel groups. That's just the way it is.

[GeniusJoy]

78. Except when he doesn't

he has some shady immigration votes. The brady bill was a big one. He also voted against Export-Import Bank.

[whathehell]

101. Lol..Thank you!

[George II]

126. No he doesn't

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

127. Bernie IS a Democrat for all intents & purposes...why he's ahead of 20 other Democrats in the polls

Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!

[Lithos]

129. Because there are about 23 Democrats

I believe he is generally in 3rd or 4th place as a rule for generalized polling.

L-

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

130. Think he's still in 2nd place in most polls... so, make that ahead of 21 other Democrats.

Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!

[Hortensis]

156. Keep this brain-sucking twist up and you may just disappear

into that maw and discover that EVEN blue dogs Manchin and Sinema, moderate conservatives as they may be, are more progressive in the only way it counts than Sanders, whose net legacy is the anti-progressive right's control of our federal government.

Btw, did you ever figure out what he's been doing with his spare time for almost three decades while he's been blowing off most of the duties most senators tend to (apparently a self-bestowed "perk" of calling oneself Independent instead of Democrat)? Imo, JonLP, $174K/year plus all the perks and bennies U.S. senators can give themselves really should have bought a lot more service to the people not matter what label he wears at any moment.

As for the OP's "honest" question, pretending the two are similar is a smear on Elizabeth Warren. "Sanders AND Warren supporters" can't know most of what is to know about either of them.

[Tipperary]

22. ...

[question everything]

4. Honest answer: Warren is a Democrat!

[NurseJackie]

5. And... BOOM!!

[shanny]

18. their plans are the same but Bernie's not a "real" Democrat?

Honest question, what's with the flap over labels? I don't get it. At.All.

p.s. Bernie is a "democrat"...and always has been.

[ehrnst]

33. So, tell me, if their "plans are the same" why won't Bernie identify as a Democrat

unless he temporarily needs the party infrastructure and $$ in a primary for Senate or POTUS?

Bernie has trashed the Democratic party for years, and felt a need to make the case to a reporter that it was "ethical" for him to run for POTUS as a Democrat ($$ and media).

He and his surrogates are the ones saying that the "label" is important.

[Cha]

91. Touche'!

[Irishxs]

134. +100

[Tipperary]

23. Perfectly put!

She sure is.

[ehrnst]

35. You know what you're getting when you vote for an actual Democrat.

Independent, not so much.

[dalton99a]

6. It's part-time vs. full-time

[Vidal]

9. please explain

sorry, i don't understand what you mean

[GemDigger]

37. Part time independent (when running for senate) and part time democrat (when he is running for pres)

[ehrnst]

42. Actually, full time independent on the job. Democrat only when on the campaign trail. (nt)

[GemDigger]

45. Bad wording on my part, I stand corrected.

I have wondered if he wins as a D if he would switch to I as soon as he was elected. I don't trust him. He can only do the wham, bam, thank you ma'am once (I learn from my mistakes).

[ehrnst]

60. Why do you think that the Democrats felt a need to have Democratic candidates

sign a 'pledge' that they will run in the general and serve as a Democrat if they win?

[GemDigger]

65. A very specifically worded pledge at that.

I chuckled when I read it and I busted out laughing when I read who signed it first.

[ehrnst]

73. While supporters were lauding it as something so incredibly praiseworthy

like his staffers unionizing.

[GemDigger]

79. I knew exactly who it was meant for after I read it. nt

[Midnight Writer]

87. That is what he does in Vermont. Primaries as a Democrat and then switches to Social Democrat.

[Vidal]

88. That seems dishonest

Is he a game player? He doesn't seem trustworthy.

[Midnight Writer]

133. He takes the primary to delete Dem oppo, since The Dems won't be able to put another candidate up.

Then, after it is set in stone, he switches back to Social Democrat.

Is it dishonest? Not at this point, since everybody in Vermont knows he does this, and they know even in the primaries they are voting for the Social Democrat. Bernie doesn't shy away from the name.

But if he does this in a Presidential race, and I have no idea if he would, then I think 99% of the people who voted for their Democratic Party candidate would be very surprised.

[Cha]

92. Very part time.. most of the time

is trashing the Dem Party..

Bernie: ‘My Opponents’ Want Black, White, Gay, Latino or Women Candidates ‘Regardless of What They Stand For

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211722251

So, Senator Sanders is dissing Democrats again on MTP?

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1287&pid=125702

On 'Meet the Press' today Bernie Sanders repeatedly slammed the "Democratic establishment"

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1287&pid=125571

Link to tweet

[Faux pas]

8. Bernie was

my choice before he/we got cheated. His time should have been 2016, that time has passed. Elizabeth is a shining light who needs to be supported. Some combination of her and Mayor Pete would be my choice for now and the future.

[Vidal]

10. Agree

what you say seems right to me.

Bernie seems so 2016, and Elizabeth is indeed a shining light.

[Faux pas]

13. ...

[Otto Lidenbrock]

17. cheated?

By who?

[MrsCoffee]

19. When the hell did Bernie get cheated?

Is this whine never going to end?

You know who got fucking cheated?!? Hillary Clinton. And the American people.

For fuck’s sake.

[jcgoldie]

24. But Bernie DID get cheated!

I mean unless you like go by who wins way more votes ... or more states... or more democratically chosen delegates... or uhm... wait...

[Cha]

94. NEwS FLASH, roody.. NO you DId NOT!

[Cha]

95. Exactly, MrsCoffee! Freaking Gaslight!

[ehrnst]

20. Cheated by who? Weaver? Devine? (nt)

[lunamagica]

21. Sanders was NOT cheated. Hillary was the voters choice and won by three million votes

Please stop spreading that lie.

[George II]

25. How was BS "cheated"?

[Cha]

96. ..

JHC!

[lapucelle]

137. Neither the press nor the pundits ever addressed the fact

that the first female nominee was probably cheated out of the presidency. They didn't care, and they still don't.

History will not be kind to them.

[Vidal]

139. excellent point

she really was cheated. it saddens me greatly, even to this day.

[Cha]

93. You Did NOT "get Cheated".. so there's

that.

[lapucelle]

105. Who's "we"?

[betsuni]

107. That's a myth, a faith-based myth.

http://www.newsweek.com/myths-cost-democrats-presidential-election-521044

[Vidal]

108. Great article

very true

thank you

[betsuni]

109. You're welcome!

[Cha]

113. Mahalo, betsuni!

[betsuni]

119. All of these myths are like stubborn stains.

We scrub and scrub and scrub and still it won't go away.

[Cha]

120. We'll just keep on keeping on..

and someday..

[Cha]

112. The only ones who say that, Faux pas,

are ones with Sour Grapes.

[sheshe2]

118. Cheated?

How so? How did he get cheated?

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

128. I half agree with you.

Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!

[MH1]

143. I appreciate your recognition that B's time is past. I don't think "he" was cheated in the way

that seems to be meant by most Bernie supporters I know.

I think WE are cheated ( a little ) by a primary system that's a bit, shall we say, sub-optimal. But the rules were known from the beginning and there was no major messing around with things, or any messing around that isn't part of how this stuff works and has always worked. I'm not sure why Bernie and his followers think he was so special that everything would be pristine and politicians would stop being politicians, because you know, Saint Bernie!

That said, the DNC did put their thumb on the scale, IMHO, but it is always that way. There is likely to be a thumb on the scale this time for Biden, at least a little if not a lot. Suck it up and get behind the nominee. Warren has at least committed to do that.

WE definitely were cheated in 2016 in the general. Those cheaters are the real enemy. Meanwhile, join local and state Dem committees and work on making your own pool a little more pristine. That's the only way the whole Dem "establishment" will get fixed - we all have to do what we can to fix our own corner of it.

[JonLP24]

11. Bernie Sanders rolls out new plans all the time

I give Sanders the edge because he voted against Trump's military budget all 3 times while Warren hasn't & his foreign policy like his attempts to end the war in Yemen.

Part of the season he has the same plans in 2016 as now is because we have had the same problems for a long time

[Tipperary]

26. The NRA likes him.

That’s for sure.

Me? Not so much.

[JonLP24]

36. He had a D- rating in 2016 from the NRA

Im sure it is even worse now since he co sponsored quite a bit of gun control legislation since 2016.

[George II]

29. He rolls out plans, not necessarily "new" plans. This week he came up with a plan....

....to tax stock transactions, even though an almost identical one was already introduced in the Senate more than two months ago. He's a member of the Senate, he should have known that Brian Schatz introduced this:

https://www.schatz.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/WSTA%20Final.pdf

A BILL To amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to impose a tax on certain trading transactions.
1 Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representa2 tives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,
3 SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.
4 This Act may be cited as the ‘‘Wall Street Tax Act
5 of 2019’’.

(more....)

As for his policy to end the war in Yemen, even that isn't his own idea, he latched onto a resolution written by Chris Murphy.

[JonLP24]

31. The 15% credit card interest rate with AOC is a new plan

[George II]

40. Even that's not a new plan, there have been laws on the books controlling (not limiting)....

....credit card interest rates for years. Any that have limited interest rates have been thrown out by the courts.

It's not a wise, or correct, thing to equate banks issuing credit cards to "loan sharks". They should do some research about what loan sharks really are.

[melman]

46. .

[ehrnst]

56. ...

"New"

[melman]

59. .

[ehrnst]

62. ...

[sheshe2]

121. Mirror!

[betsuni]

123. That made me LOL.

[NurseJackie]

150. Damn!

[George II]

70. .

[ehrnst]

54. Actuallly, no, it's not new. It something that he tried before, and failed.

In May 2009, Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) sponsored legislation that would have capped credit card interest rates at 15%. That legislation crashed and burned, drawing only 33 votes.

https://www.thestreet.com/story/12806227/1/will-congress-cap-credit-card-rates.html

Bringing it out again, and putting AOC's name on it isn't "unveiling" as much as "dusting it off to try it again 10 years later as a POTUS candidate, and hope people won't remember that it failed the last time."

And that was years after it failed in 1991.

However, just last month, this legislation was introduced:

Washington, DC – U.S. Senators Sheldon Whitehouse (D-RI), Elizabeth Warren (D-MA), Jeff Merkley (D-OR), and Jack Reed (D-RI) have introduced legislation to protect Americans from runaway interest rates for credit cards and other consumer loans. The Empowering States’ Rights to Protect Consumers Act would restore states’ ability to limit consumer loan interest rates for their residents and help address the nearly $1 trillion Americans hold in credit card debt.

https://www.whitehouse.senate.gov/news/release/whitehouse-warren-merkley-reed-introduce-bill-to-protect-consumers-from-runaway-credit-card-rates

[JonLP24]

55. Most legislation attempted fails

Even Warren knows that.

Very few bills actually became law.

[ehrnst]

57. So you're going to skip over the detail that it's not actually "new."

But dusted off and brought back out during a POTUS run.

Not surprised...

[ehrnst]

155. "Even Warren" knows that?

Sounds like you have very little respect for Senator Warren.

Perhaps you would be more at home on another discussion board.

[George II]

72. To be honest I haven't seen a single major proposal of his this spring that is actually "new".

[ehrnst]

75. However, it's savvy for a career politician to crank out many as much "new"

legislation as possible during a campaign, especially if one has a long career with little to show for it.

[George II]

77. That was my observation. We have a man who has been in the House and Senate for almost 30 years....

....and all of a sudden there are all these "new" proposals. Why not last year, 2017, 2016, etc.?

[Cha]

135. My Senator, Brian Schatz..

Did he give Senator Schatz credit?

[jcgoldie]

30. Plus he voted for sanctions on Russia....

..oh no he was the only one who didn't...

[George II]

32. Actually there were two Senators who didn't, him and Rand Paul. Interesting company, eh?

[JonLP24]

34. He voted for Russia only sanctions

On Thursday afternoon, Senator Bernie Sanders voted against legislation to put new sanctions on both Russia and Iran. He voted for a Russia-only sanctions bill, but opposed the final bill’s inclusion of new sanctions on Iran because, like John Kerry, he feared it would endanger the 2015 nuclear deal

https://www.thenation.com/article/bernie-sanders-is-a-russian-agent-and-other-things-i-learned-this-week/

Here is his statement on the matter.

Sanders Statement on Iran and Russia Sanctions
Thursday, June 15, 2017
WASHINGTON, June 15 – Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) issued the following statement Thursday after he voted against a bill that would impose new sanctions on Iran and Russia:

"I am strongly supportive of the sanctions on Russia included in this bill. It is unacceptable for Russia to interfere in our elections here in the United States, or anywhere around the world. There must be consequences for such actions. I also have deep concerns about the policies and activities of the Iranian government, especially their support for the brutal Assad regime in Syria. I have voted for sanctions on Iran in the past, and I believe sanctions were an important tool for bringing Iran to the negotiating table. But I believe that these new sanctions could endanger the very important nuclear agreement that was signed between the United States, its partners and Iran in 2015. That is not a risk worth taking, particularly at a time of heightened tension between Iran and Saudi Arabia and its allies. I think the United States must play a more even-handed role in the Middle East, and find ways to address not only Iran's activities, but also Saudi Arabia's decades-long support for radical extremism."

https://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/sanders-statement-on-iran-and-russia-sanctions

The reason why I bolded Saudi Arabia is because foreign policy is an issue I keep circling back to Bernie Sanders.

[ehrnst]

44. Why didn't he make it to floor for the January vote for sanctions on a Russian oligharch?

He was minutes away.

Doesn't show that it was much of a priority.

[JonLP24]

49. Because he was meeting with sexual harrasement survivors from the

2016 campaign and his vote wouldn't have made the difference. He would have faced criticism idle he didn't meet with them so he had to the right thing in that situation.

[ehrnst]

58. You mean the all day meeting that he stopped in for an hour?

He had all day to stop in for that meeting for an hour, but chose to do so right when that vote to sanction a Russian oligharch was going on?

And so... if a vote "won't make a difference" it's pointless to show up and vote?

That's odd. I hear that Sanders praised for casting dissenting votes - even if it won't make a difference - for "conscience" reasons.

Are you saying that's not the case with him anymore?

[mcar]

106. Convenient

[George II]

125. The meeting was about 36 hours over the course of two days, he happened to decide....

...to drop in for lunch for thirty minutes at the same time the Deripaska vote took place.

The meeting also took place only minutes from the Senate Chambers, he could have easily walked across the street and voted and gone back to his business or meeting, like many Senators do. It turns out that 99 Senators found the vote to be important enough to show up, only one didn't.

No excuses. At least no credible excuses.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

132. Yup, under the "Bernie Standard," you're damned if you do or damned if you don't...

as long as it's Bernie that's getting bashed.


Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!
Welcome to the revolution!!

[Cha]

136. No.. that won't work.. that's already been

discussed on this board.

BS had plenty of time.

Link to tweet

[ehrnst]

38. So does my dad. But I don't expect my dad to make them happen, like I would a Senator.

Warren actually "rolled out" the CFPB into existence.

What has Bernie accomplished on that scale? He's been at this way longer, if you include his years in Congress.

Bernie's plans aren't neccessarily "new." Often he repackages other's ideas with some minor changes - which isn't unethical. He and we should just be honest about what he has and hasn't "originated."

And Bernie hasn't always been a dove, so there's that.


In 1998 Sanders voted in favor of the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998, which said: “It should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and to promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime.”

Later that same year, Sanders also backed a resolution that stated: “Congress reaffirms that it should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and to promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime.”

Sanders also voted for the 2001 Authorization Unilateral Military Force Against Terrorists (AUMF), which pretty much allowed Bush to wage war wherever he wanted.

Authorization for Use of Military Force - Authorizes the President to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations, or persons.
States that this Act is intended to constitute specific statutory authorization within the meaning of the War Powers Resolution.

[George II]

41. Pish, posh....minor (factual) details.

[PatrickforO]

14. Between the two, Warren has the greater compassion.

Bernie is very left brained, and has become a bit curmudgeonly.

In terms of policies, Bernie is advocating this Wall Street tax, but it was forcefully pointed out to me by another member that this idea did not originate with him. That doesn't bother me, though, because it is a good idea.

As to Warren, the reason I actually like her better at this point is that she put forth the 'Accountable Capitalism Act' in August 2018. This law would expand the responsibility of CEOs beyond mere shareholder earnings and compel them, as part of the corporate charter, to consider other stakeholders on an equal footing - workers, consumers and the environment.

Whatever happens moving forward, though, come 2020 the Democrats must necessarily repeal the giant tax cut for corporations and billionaires the Republicans passed in 2017. Since I'm an economist I cannot resist speaking about fiscal policy and how it is being used to further a corporate-right-wing ideology.

To explain, there is a group of people who genuinely believe that the ONLY function of the federal government should be 'to provide for the common defense,' and that the rest of the things the national government has taken upon itself should be 'devolved' to states and local governments. The tax cut of 2017 was designed to hasten that - consider two seemingly unrelated things: first the tax cut gave corporations the opportunity to buy back shares, but they used very little to give their workers raises, or pass the savings onto the consumer in the form of lower prices for product/service.

The theory (what they told us that yellow liquid streaming down our backs was) is that a tax cut stimulates the economy, so that enough new jobs are created that the loss of revenue from the tax cut is made up from taxes paid by the new workers.

This, of course, was a lie. The tax cut merely lined the pockets of the richest and left the rest of us pretty much out in the cold.

In the meantime, the deficit ballooned and the national debt has reached unsustainable proportions. Remember Grover Norquist's idea to strangle government until it's small enough to drown in a bathtub? This is that. They ballooned the debt on purpose for that reason.

Consider the recent inquiry (by Republicans) to the CBO. They've asked for a study about 'how expensive' unemployment insurance is. Soon, privatization of earned benefit programs like Social Security and Medicare will be on the table, and virtually all safety net programs will be on the chopping block.

But hey, we DO have a shiny new space force, right? And we're spending nearly 3/4 trillion dollars on 'defense.' Last time I checked, we spend more on defense than the next six or eight countries behind us.

This, Vidal, is a right-wing coup. A slow coup, because Republicans are masters of the long game. They've chipped away at social programs, safety nets, and regulations for decades. Read up on the 2006 'postal service accountability' act, where the GOP tried their best to bankrupt the USPS by forcing them to fund pensions for workers they hadn't even hired yet. Just another union-busting and privatization ploy...

So, my last two paragraphs in my reply to you, Vidal, is to chide you for a post that begins with 'an honest question.'

Our social, economic and political fabric is being torn, stretched and cut in a thousand different places every single day. Bernie and Biden are currently at the top but we have a strong bench of others who ALSO have good ideas. When the first primaries happen, this field will be reduced to maybe six or seven. By Super Tuesday, it will be down to maybe three or four max. A leader will emerge.

IF WE DO NOT WHOLEHEARTEDLY SUPPORT THIS NOMINEE AND TRUMP WINS AGAIN, WE WILL LOSE THIS REPUBLIC. So trying to get people to argue Warren or Sanders right now - not so constructive. Because the stakes are far too high for that stuff.

[backtoblue]

152. Very thoughtful post. Thank you Patrick.

[Vidal]

153. I agree

yes it was a thoughtful and valuable post.

[Turin_C3PO]

15. I like Warren more than Bernie due to tactics and presentation,

not so much on issues. I agree with both policy wise but Bernie is too grumpy and wags his finger too much. Oh and he needs to stop identifying as a socialist if has any prayer of winning. Truthfully, he’s not a socialist, just a person who believes in a capitalistic “welfare state” if you wanna call it that.

I was a Bernie supporter in 2016 but quickly switched to Clinton when it was apparent that he wasn’t going to win.

[Politicub]

16. All of my questions are dishonest, I'm afraid.

So I'm not able to help you.

[Maru Kitteh]

27. Well some do believe Bernie thinks every think ever thought first, dontcha know. No Democrat

ever ever thought of raising the minimum wage (hey why do we even have a minimum wage again?), no Democrat ever thought of increasing access to education, no Democrat ever thought about strengthening our social safety net, or any jobs programs, or universal healthcare, or, or, or, or. . . .. . . you get the idea.

Somehow the Sanders campaign operation (or perhaps even a subset thereof) has convinced a rapidly shrinking core of dedicated loyalists out there that every Democratic victory, every social advance, every aspiration for a more equitable future was his idea first. The success they have had in planting this errant seed of untruth is really quite bizarre, but thankfully, losing hold.

[Vidal]

47. I'm glad you wrote that.

What you say is something I've been thinking for a long time but I never had seen anyone write about it before.

The Universal Healthcare thing really bothers me. Because Hillary almost got it passed after Bill became president. But Bernie always made it seem like it was his idea first, and his support for Universal Healthcare was stronger than Hillary's which was not true at all.

[Maru Kitteh]

74. Hillary risked her entire political life and future for Universal Healthcare in the 90's

It nearly cost her everything. We owed her gratitude and paid her with scorn. It's a wonder she was willing to step up, yet again, and fight for us, one more time.

Now instead of having moved ahead, our task is to put forth a nominee whose first order of business must now necessarily be attempting to clean up the unfathomable damage done by Trump. I believe Biden, Harris, Mayor Pete or Warren can win, and get that done. We have no time for myths and fairy tales.

[NYMinute]

28. Senator Warren has a problem

She has not achieved sainthood and thus only has supporters and no devotees.

But your premise is correct. She has better progressive ideas, she has a plan to get them enacted and she lays out how they will be paid for which is in sharp contrast to slogans and platitudes.

[Vidal]

66. LOL

How can she compete against Saint Bernie? It's very tough.

[NYMinute]

82. She could hire a Hollywood animal stunt trainer

and have a bird land on her podium or something similar.

[Vidal]

83. Now there's an idea

She might like that one. She seems to have a sense of humor, and is not averse to publicity.

[NYMinute]

84. It is a true and tested method in these parts nt

[ehrnst]

68. ....

[George II]

124. That's a refreshing approach to the important issues facing the country. I'll bet she never even...

....shouted down anyone asking a difficult question or wagged her finger at anyone, either.

[BannonsLiver]

50. Warren is vastly superior to Bernie in every conceivable way.

I think it’s unfair to her to lump them together.

[Vidal]

67. Well

That is one perspective to consider, thank you.

[Cha]

97. I think so, too!

[Starry Messenger]

53. Warren is my #2 after Harris

I think Warren is more responsive to events and currents. Bernie is closer to me on foreign policy, but I don’t feel he makes the case in a way voters can get right away, so therefore, that doesn’t get him changemaker status there either.

Warren is more reflective on civil rights and social issues, imo.

[roody]

61. He has been on the same stuff for 40 years.

He is the real thing.

[ehrnst]

64. Even when it fails. (nr)

[Cha]

98. That's a matter of

opinion.

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

Voted Against the Brady Bill 5 times.
Voted to have guns on Amtrak
Voted to have guns in national parks

Link to tweet

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1287&pid=102663

[sheshe2]

116. With all due respect.

With all due respect, what has he accomplished legislatively in those 40 years?

[JudyM]

154. Yup. The truth doesn't change. It grows more important.

[KayF]

69. foreign policy is a big difference to me

Warren seems to stick with the status quo for the most part. Bernie is strongly anti-war.

[Vidal]

71. Some Recent Polls Show Warren is Gaining on Sanders

She is now almost at 10% and in some polls she's been gaining on Bernie all month.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/us/2020_democratic_presidential_nomination-6730.html

If this trend continues she could overtake Bernie before the primaries start. It's possible.

[Vidal]

81. Maybe Sanders is making money

He has made at least two million dollars since 2015, so running for president has been very lucrative for him. Money can be a powerful motivator.

[NYMinute]

85. Without taking into account

Old Towne Media LLC

https://vtdigger.org/2016/07/15/sanders-campaign-millions-go-to-mystery-firm/

[Vidal]

86. OK, let's have the truth

Do you think Sanders' wife, and maybe Bernie himself, made money from the ad buys?

It has been reported in the past that he used campaign donations to buy his books, and then he received royalties from that.

Not sure if any of this has been confirmed or not.

[Vidal]

99. Has anyone here read any of Bernie's books?

Like "Our Revolution?"

I was wondering if it was really great and revolutionary.

[forgotmylogin]

102. I think it's a misinterpretation of a quote.

I have read “Warren is the candidate everyone thought Sanders was”. Not that their policies are identical.

[Vidal]

104. That's great

I love that saying.

This could be her year.

[betsuni]

103. "Their distinctive liberalism is mostly a matter of adopting campaign labels,

not policy preferences." There's an article in the NYT (2016), "Do Sanders supporters favor his policies?" that I found interesting. I think much of it is true today:

"More detailed evidence casts further doubt on the notion that support for Mr. Sanders reflects a shift to the left in policy preference of Democrats. In a survey conducted by the American National Election Studies ... supporters of Mr. Sanders were more pessimistic than Mrs. Clinton's supporters about 'opportunity in America today for the average person to get ahead' and more likely to say that economic inequality has increased. However, they were less likely than Clinton's supporters to favor concrete policies that Mr. Sanders has offered as remedies for these ills, including a higher minimum wage, increased government spending on health care, and expansion of government services financed by higher taxes. It is quite a stretch to view these people as the vanguard of a new, social-democratic-trending Democratic Party. ... a short-term byproduct of enthusiasm for Mr. Sanders rather than a stable political conviction. Their distinctive liberalism is mostly a matter of adopting campaign labels, not policy preferences."

[Vidal]

110. Wow

that is incredible.

Do you have a link?

I'd like to give it to some people I know who support Bernie.

[betsuni]

111. Here:

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/23/opinion/campaign-stops/do-sanders-supporters-favor-his-policies.html

[Vidal]

115. Great

Thank you Betsuni. This will lead to some interesting discussions.

[Cha]

114. Yep.. we've noticed..

Thanks, betsuni!

[betsuni]

122. Sure have.

[mopinko]

117. bernie has one plan- eat the rich.

warren has real plans for real problems that have real impact.
for all bernie's barking about health care, does he even know about the crisis in maternal and infant mortality in this country?

does he have a clue how lack of affordable child care affects the economy, or does he think it's "just" a "women's issue"?

[Vidal]

141. you are right

he doesn't seem to have a clue

[Lithos]

131. Ok, I'm not a Bernie nor a Warren supporter - I'm still undecided

But, if given a preference between only these two, I would pick Warren.

Bernie is coming across as a rehash of 2016 with ideas he stole from other people. When he articulates his ideas it seems as if he is more interested in blowing up things than showing why it's a better idea. Warren, while she comes across as a wonk sometimes, does have a more cogent set of reasoning and explanations for *WHY* her plans are better. In addition, she seems to have been one of those who have advanced a lot of thinking in the past two years with nuances and relevancy to 2019/2020. I've not heard Bernie do this.

L-

[Vidal]

140. Blowing things up

I agree, it seems like he is more of an anarchist than someone looking to make our country better, working within the system.

[zanana1]

138. One word

Guns. Bernie is weak on gun control. Elizabeth Warren is not.

[LibFarmer]

149. +1000 nt