In the primaries it doesn't matter a lick what your "major issue" is or

[redstatebluegirl]

what litmus test someone must pass. Nothing, and I mean nothing, matters except can they beat the pants off Donald Trump. Also, can they help hold the House and win the Senate because without that, nothing happens, your policy dies a wicked death. We have to give them a roundhouse beating in order to make it stick.

With that said, I have some more progressive candidates that I love and could vote for easily but what will be first in my mind is "can this candidate deliver in states that are not on the east and west coast". Can they deliver the rust belt and other states in flyover country.

This does not mean I am less a democrat than anyone else here, it just means I'm scared to death of 4 more years with a President who doesn't have to run again with turtle man in charge of the Senate again. If you aren't you really don't get it.

[Beartracks]

1. Hear ya. n/t

[AlexSFCA]

2. yep, how did that work out in 2016?

Let’s be clear, we all love Biden here but he excites no one and is much less exciting than Hillary was in 2016 when we were all drunk of excitement w/o alcohol. The last thing we want right now is to rely on polls.

[redstatebluegirl]

3. He can excite the blue collar workers in Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania.

Bottom line, I think people are ready for a steady hand on the wheel for a while. Is Biden perfect, no, but he is highly electable in places we need to win. Could that change as we move forward yes, if it does, I will change to who can beat the pants off of trump. I love Mayor Pete, he can't win the flyover states, bottom line. He also appears to have issues with Black voters although I don't get it. I would vote for him in a hot minute, but I just wonder if he can win.

[Cha]

4. How did what work out in 2016?

And, btw.. there are some of us who are very excited about the possibility of the Democratic Victory of Joe Biden in the WH.

You really shouldn't try to speak for Biden Supporters.

[redstatebluegirl]

10. I don't, I speak always for myself.

[Cha]

16. I know you always speak for yourself, redstatebluegirl!

My reply was addressed to AlexSFCA..

Let’s be clear, we all love Biden here but he excites no one and is much less exciting than Hillary was in 2016 when we were all drunk of excitement w/o alcohol.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1287&pid=151292

[redstatebluegirl]

12. I need to say more about the fact that I am speaking for Biden supporters.

I have loved him for a long time. I hate to admit it, but I liked him more than Secretary Clinton. Right now things are serious. I still think Biden is our best shot, I don't see anyone else carrying the rust belt like he can. I also think he can carry Florida.

Not being negative, love you Cha, just don't want it to appear I am speaking for all Biden voters, if that is the case I can become undecided again. I have already volunteered to help Biden in my state and my home state because I will be home for a month in the late fall.

[thesquanderer]

13. I believe Cha's comment was in response to AlexSFGCA's comment, not yours.

i.e. where he said "we all love Biden here but he excites no one"

[redstatebluegirl]

14. Thanks I really like her.

[Cha]

19. Yes.. Thank you..

[Cha]

18. I would never say that to you, redstatebluegirl..

or to anyone except to someone who said this..

Let’s be clear, we all love Biden here but he excites no one and is much less exciting than Hillary was in 2016 when we were all drunk of excitement w/o alcohol.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1287&pid=151292

Love you, too!

[redstatebluegirl]

21. Thank you! You are one of my favorites here !

[Demsrule86]

93. I volunteered also.

[onetexan]

84. +1 -K&R

[Butterflylady]

5. Excitement didn't seem to help

Bernie. Huge crowds he had, a lot of more so then Hillary. But in that voting booth they picked Hillary. Yeah everybody wants to see and hear the new kids on the block, so to speak, however, that did not translate into primary votes.

[marylandblue]

11. Bernie did pretty well for an unknown crusty socialist without minority support.

Warren has the same economic message, is exciting, but doesn't neglect civil rights.

[LibFarmer]

54. There was Russian help nt

[marylandblue]

58. Not everything can be blamed on Russia.

Millions of people made unusual choices all by themselves. Millions of others were unhappy with the options given them.

[LibFarmer]

59. Robert Mueller's indictment of IRA agents

Paragraph 43:.

https://www.justice.gov/file/1035477/download

43. By 2016, Defendants and their co-conspirators used their fictitious online personas to interfere with the 2016 U.S. presidential election. They engaged in operations primarily intended to communicate derogatory information about Hillary Clinton, to denigrate other candidates such as Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio, and to support Bernie Sanders and then-candidate Donald Trump.

[JI7]

69. yup 3 campaigns coordinated together to attack Clinton

with the same bs lies.

[marylandblue]

70. Not EVERYTHING can be attributed to Russia, or

you can bury your head in the sand and pretend this country doesn't have deep political problems that can rip it to shreds, no help from Russia required.

[LibFarmer]

71. How does one go from Bernie to Trump

unless there is a deep manipulation by Russia and surrogates in the US?

[JI7]

72. the support for Russian influence in the elections is part of the problems

in this country.

and Sanders campaign is full of troll jill Stein supporters.

[marylandblue]

74. How many ways are there to say we have serious, deep, dangerous, and potentially unsolvable problems

that are not named Russia or Trump, and would exist without them. Is that really so hard to understand? Did Trump create Mitch McConnell, or did Mitch McConnell enable Trump? Did Trump pave the way for Rush Limbaugh or did Rush Limbaugh pave the way for Trump? Did Trump create the huge income inequality in this country or did income inequality create Trump? Did Trump create the Tea Party, or did the Tea Party bend the knee for Trump? Did Trump select his own court appointees or were his appointees selected for him by a right wing organization decades ago? Did Russia invent racism or did they find racism here already? Did Russia spend the last 40 years trying to take away women's rights or did we do that by ourselves? Did Trump create the religious right or did Jerry Falwell and his heirs?

That's the short list. I could go on and on.

Religious tensions, ethnic tensions, income inequality: all of these existed long before Trump or Putin and all of them have them have been getting worse for decades until we are almost at the boiling point.

Abraham Lincoln knew how America would die, listen to him:
"At what point then is the approach of danger to be expected? I answer, if it ever reach us, it must spring up amongst us. It cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide."

Why does this even need to be said?

[JI7]

75. it's all about racism and other bigotry. the Russian attack

used those things. and other existing problems.

i don't separate those things. it's why the racists have welcomed Russian help.

[marylandblue]

76. Well at least you got part of it. But it isn't just racism and we seem blind to the root causes

as well as the need to start presenting actual solutions to the American people before we defeat Trump, not after. Because I really don't think we will beat him without that. And so it matters much more than a lick.

[JI7]

77. root causes of racism ?

white privilege, hatred of others. enablers etc

[marylandblue]

78. Sigh. Never mind.

[JI7]

28. that's becsuse it was the same people at his crowds. even when he was in large minority areas

he would have mostly white audience. so he really wasn't getting crowds of many different people.

[LibFarmer]

55. There were thousands of Bernie groupies

who went from city to city to attend his concerts ... I mean rallies.

[CentralMass]

79. I sat in the Moda Center in Portland, Oregon with 20,000 other supporters with 8,000 more outside

at his Portland rally. He won our closed primary by 14 points. He had and has a lot of support.

[LibFarmer]

80. How many of them were booing John Lewis in Philly? nt

[CentralMass]

81. I'm not from nor do I live in Philly and have no clue. Philadelphia was rated the angriest city in

America.

https://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2016/06/02/philadelphia-named-angriest-city-in-america/

Are you from there ?

The Rally in Portland was an amazing event. I met a lot of nice people there.

[George II]

87. That "angriest city in America" rating is based primarily on the attitude of their sports fans, not

....the attitude of the citizens in general.

Plus, those who were booing John Lewis and others at the convention were for the most part out of towners - delegates from all over the country and their friends/family members.

[Gothmog]

91. I was at the National Convention during the planned stunt to boo Congressman Lewis

I was a Clinton national delegate and was at the convention during the planned stunt of booing Congressman John Lewis. The Clinton campaign had a great “whipping infrastructure” and my whip warned me of the planned sanders delegate stunt to boo Congressman John Lewis. According to my whip sanders was asked to stop this stunt and declined. The Texas delegation shared a bus to the convention with the Georgia delegation and one of the Georgia delegates heard that sanders would not try to stop this planned stunt

[emmaverybo]

6. I must be the only one then. I am excited and inspired by his candidacy. All in for Joe. nt

[hedda_foil]

23. I'm sure there are others who share your enthusiasm.

He's a lovely man, but his age is showing and he's become a bit of a snooze.

[emmaverybo]

39. Age shows. It's not a character defect though and often a wisdom. That you think him a

snooze does not make him one.

[LanternWaste]

94. That seems to be the trendy, manufactured narrative being used.

"his age is showing and he's become a bit of a snooze..."

[Cha]

61. You're not the only one..

It's just one of the memes his detractors have.

Democracy is very exciting to me and Joe Biden is all about that!

[underthematrix]

26. This morning when my sister and I were having our weekly political discussion

she said phuck passion. I don't want no phuckin passion. I just want my democracy back and Biden is the only one who can do that.

I have to agree with her. I don't need excitement. I don't need no feels. I need some sane calm no drama constitutional rule of law believing candidate who has the capacity to put our democracy back together. I need a candidate who can get DEMS, GOPers and Indies to vote as a huge block in the general across all states.

[JI7]

27. but Hillary got more votes than Sanders and Trump. i know some don't think

those voters count as much as white ones. but she DID get millions more votes and faced more attacks from all of them than anyone else.

[AlexSFCA]

29. no, they don't count at all cause of electoral college

[JI7]

30. that's right. so lets not pretend it's about anything other than white racists

[AlexSFCA]

31. no one is trying to pretend

not even trump or gop.

[JI7]

33. people pretend all the time as if it's about anything else.

[Demsrule86]

45. I find Biden exciting...he is a great guy and I mean no offense but Mayor Pete will not win a

win a general...I find that terrifying.

[cwydro]

73. Tell us why again.

Though many of us know why you think Buttigieg can’t win since you’ve stated it several times.

“Terrifying” is new even for you.

[Demsrule86]

92. Two reasons...not enough experience and i dont believe homophobic

Voters will support Mayor Pete. My daughter is gay and I have seen what she goes through first hand. Ihave seen protestors at her college armed carrying hateful signs...and worse. Things are changing but not in time for 20.

[LibFarmer]

53. I find Biden exciting

He da man

[MrsCoffee]

57. Hillary got millions more votes and the KGOP stole it from her and us.

That’s how that worked out.

Where have you been?

[onetexan]

86. +1 -K&R. Why people seem to forget that and say the Idiot

Beat her in 2016 is a travesty.

[marylandblue]

7. I think it depends on what those white swing state blue collar workers really want

Your assumption is that they are looking for a "steady hand" and not much else. But that's not how they voted in 2016. We have Trump fatigue, but do they? It's possible that they will go for Warren's economic populism more than you might think.

[JI7]

32. those white people are going for Biden in huge numbers

they want another old fashioned white man like them. has nothing to do with the economy.

[marylandblue]

37. Has to do with a lot of things, not just the economy, and maybe they do want Biden

but just being an old white guy isn't going to be enough if it's just two old white guys in the race.

My old crystal ball is definitely broken because I've been mostly wrong in my election predictions for decades now. My only consolation is that most other people's crystal balls seem to be broken too.

I do have a new crystal ball however, and this one says that Trump broke all the rules of forecasting and election wisdom forever. So I think the winner of both the primary and the election is the person who can create the new rules. I don't think that's Biden because he pretty much told us he is not that person.

I find it telling that his next nearest competitors are a cranky fake socialist, a female college professor who wants to soak the rich, a too young small town gay mayor, and a black woman. After them finally comes a middle age white guy who takes selfies at the dentist.

There was time all of those people would have been polling at 0% in every state. There was also a time when Trump would have polled at 0.

After Biden, the two most traditional-looking candidates are successful white male governors. Shockingly, they are both at 1%.

There is something going on that is not obvious to most of us. Whatever that is, it is not conducive to electing normal old white guys.

[JI7]

41. you are comparing different primaries. trump was not a surprise

to anyone that paid attention to the hatred and backlash against a black president and other changes in society.

Biden is an old white guy with old fashioned mannerisms but he isn't a bigot.

i also think a lot of people underestimate Obama's popularity. especially in minority communities. they saw all the hatred against Obama that i mentioned and how Biden did a good serving him.

many of those most defending Biden are African Americans. unlike Hillary he is a white man of the type i described so he is also acceptable to certain white men.

one thing that i can see hurting Biden is he doesn't like to campaign.

[marylandblue]

42. "one thing that i can see hurting Biden is he doesn't like to campaign. "

Like I said, it has to do with a lot of things.

[Demsrule86]

46. Biden is a great campaigner and you are wrong to say that. He is a smart campaigner and if you

are talkin'g about going to his granddaughter's graduation rather than some meaningless Iowa event...good for him.

[marylandblue]

50. I was quoting JI7. Hence the quote marks. Please pay attention.

[AlexSFCA]

34. I can't imagine a blue collar voter who voted for trump will vote for Biden

it makes no sense. Have you even met such people? do they exist? I know some of them voted for Obama even twice and I believe some would have voted for Bernie but for the life of me I can’t imagine they’ll vote for Obama’s 3rd term (Biden) after trump. They wanted “change” in 2016.

[marylandblue]

35. Well that's what I think, but we'll have to wait and see.

[JI7]

43. there are misogynist racist leaning type democrats who like the economic policies

but don't want to be led by women .

these are the ones who made every excuse to hate hillary . while ignoring all the facts about trump so they could justify themselves in voting for that fucked up bigot.

not all racists are n word spewing openly kkk nazi types.

[Demsrule86]

47. Yeah I live in Ohio...so I know a number of them.

Biden is the only one who puts Ohio in play.

[Turin_C3PO]

64. Polls show Biden is the leader in those states.

But it also has Warren, Sanders, Buttigieg, and Harris also kicking Trump’s ass. Many of our Dems are electable.

[Kurt V.]

8. There is only a handful of states in play. Florida first among them. That's where trump

makes his play with latino voters and Venezuela.

[AlexSFCA]

36. we have very recent data on FL: gillum and nelson

[VarryOn]

9. I'm with you on electability being numero uno..

But....not if they're anti-choice, anti-immigrant, or not in favor of Medicare for All. Fortunately, I think the plausible candidates OK on these.

I give "bonus points" to anyone advocating more seats on the SCOTUS. I'm very attracted that possibility!

[Demsrule86]

48. I am not in favor of Medicare for all...and don't believe it to be a winning issue.

Fix the ACA with a public option which takes care of states who refused to expand Medicaid...this leads to universal healthcare and is doable...MFA is not... for years and maybe never.

[thesquanderer]

15. I agree with you, but I think a number of candidates can win WI/PA/MI and therefore beat Trump.

I'll be looking at polls in those (and some other) states as we get closer to the actual primaries, before I cast my vote. I suspect by the time I vote, the field will be noticeably smaller anyway. But now is way too soon to start culling based on who we think can win. I mean, we're still many months away from even Iowa!

[Turin_C3PO]

17. Getting rid of Trump

is the moral issue of the century so far, IMO. His presidency has destroyed so many norms and institutions as well as unleashing a vicious, ignorant part of the electorate on the rest of the American people. It will take a lot of work to get back to being an honorable country who our allies trust.

[hedda_foil]

24. You're quite right. But that doesn't automatically inaugurate Biden.

[Turin_C3PO]

25. Didn't say it did.

I think any number of our candidates can beat Trump.

[Cha]

38. Nobody is saying that it would ".. automatically inaugurate Biden"

but you.

[Demsrule86]

49. I do not believe Warren can carry the states we need.

In my opinion, she will be a distant second to Biden...the party is not particularly leftist...as past elections have clearly showed.

[Demsrule86]

65. He has the best chance.

[underthematrix]

20. My only litmus test is voting for the strongest candidate who can beat

#TraitorTrump overwhelmingly. This is what Speaker Pelosi said we had to do to make #TraitorTrump leaves the White House.

And yes I agree with your analysis.
I really like Warren too but I think a Biden-Bennet ticket would give us a HUGE overwhelming general election win. My sister and I were talking about this morning and we both said at the same time that Bennet reminds us of JFK and PBO.

[redstatebluegirl]

22. Yes Biden and any of the other candidates except Bernie.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

40. Sheer intelligence, savvy and wit will beat him. Not sure

any have that...they do, but not to the level to beat a monster. You need an ultra superior intellect. This is so ironic since he is so illiterate...but he has been a conniving media savvy mafiosa for many years. He has honed his skill

[Hortensis]

44. Way overstated. OF COURSE, issues matter.

Issues are a big factor in why some are sinking and some rising, and they are a real part of that electablity you're talking about.

Especially since we have many candidates to choose among, and how do we do that? Of course, most are so close overall on the most important issue positions, almost all just variations of the same goals. So ardent souls for whom there are vast differences may be mislead into imagining issues aren't a factor for others.

Most of Biden's positions are shared to an acceptable degree by a large majority of Democrats, and don't imagine for a moment that that isn't a VERY significant part of his being currently seen as most electable. He was seriously out of step with abortion funding, less electable.

Gillibrand just equated any interference at all with women's reproductive rights with being racist and antisemitic, not a wise thing, less electable. Sanders is trying to redefine socialism to mean capitalism and ditching his 1930s class revolution image for a new establishment one because they were making him less electable. Warren has big plans for harnessing Democratic Party power and ideals to address big problems, more electable. And so on.

[TCJ70]

51. No. This is the opposite of what a primary is about.

A primary is about choosing someone who can push your issues the farthest and will work hardest towards them. The general is about winning that election vs your opponent.

The view your espousing here is completely antithetical to what a primary is about. The only exception is if your primary issue is to defeat Trump. But electability is a bullshit argument based on opinion anyway so whatever.

[LibFarmer]

52. Some people's major issue is

"I'll stick it to the billionaires and corporations and give free stuff to all." The proletariat jumps up and down with that issue framed in multiple ways.

[Turin_C3PO]

63. Free stuff.

I hope you’re not equating affordable, universal healthcare or affordable college to people wanting “free stuff”. Not saying you are but I get suspicious when I see the “Democrats want free stuff” argument because that’s a favorite Republican talking point.

[LibFarmer]

67. Bernie does say "free college education"

and "free healthcare" - he has modified it a bit for this campaign.

[Turin_C3PO]

68. Nothing's ultimately free of course.

Taxes would have to pay for a comprehensive health plan and cheaper college. I’m not sure healthcare should be exactly free for everyone but it shouldn’t be anywhere near what it costs now. Ultimately, we should look to a system like the NHS in Britain, IMO. That would be the ultimate goal. First we should implement Biden’s plan of a buy in Public option. Then slowly go to a more single payer system.

That’s my opinion of course. Your mileage may vary.

[NYMinute]

56. Biden can kick Trump's ass

and leave him bleeding on the floor groaning in pain.

That is what I want to see.

I am reminded of the debate with Hillary when Trump was circling her menacingly and standing behind her to distract. Hillary said nothing.

Biden would say, "Hey Don, stop stalking me and go stand in your place."

[KayF]

60. Trump won his primaries with immigration

an issue could help a Democrat beat Trump.

[onetexan]

85. Lets refine that - the Idiot didnt win, he stole the election

He colluded with russians & other foreign powers to steal the presidency.

[KayF]

90. i'm talking about the primaries

immigration was a driving issue for him, in the primaries, against the other GOP candidates. Even though he didn't personally care about it, he rode that single issue to victory, in the primaries.

[loyalsister]

62. Voting is not an objective exercise

No matter how much a person relies on polls or conventional wisdom, in the end our voting decisions are personal and subjective.
Electability claims remind me of my frustrated 8yr old self responding to a Catholic teacher who was trying to sell me predestination. "But it hasn't happened yet!!!!"
I think our priorities differ and when it comes to voting- to each their own. Especially in primaries.

[earthshine]

66. According to recent polls, we have numerous candidates that can beat Trump.

I will not be voting for Biden in the primaries.

I will, of course, vote for the Dem candidate against Trump, no matter who that is.

[BlueWI]

82. Issues do matter IMO, since winning still requires a strong campaign.

A winning candidate has to excel in both the primaries and general election campaign. And the first big national moment is the debates. This is where attention to issue priorities and motivating language is quite important. It would actually benefit Democrats to foreground their issue positions because Democratic positions have greater popular support. And our nominees in my political lifetime (since 1976) have not always had a gift for motivating language and clear priorities.

So who knows who can win where? We talk constantly about Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania - all of which have very strong progressive voting bases in their major cities, but the opinions of the Reagan Democrat bloc are given greater weight sometimes in our discussions. Minnesota, New Mexico, North Carolina, Nevada, Colorado - none of these are guaranteed Democratic victories. Who is strongest across all of them - and who is best suited to maximize turnout with a well organized, inspiring campaign?

[crazytown]

83. Pro Life, Pro Fossil Fuels, Pro Deregulation.

Everyone has red lines. The only candidate who crosses one for me is Hickenlooper: Pro Fracking.

[Kahuna7]

88. Here here! The platform is the platform. They will all mostly agree to it.

[BlueWI]

89. But they have to win in the general to execute any of the platform.

The last moderate Democrat to win the general was Clinton in 1996. Gore, Kerry, and Hillary Clinton never won the presidency. Maybe a Biden nomination will change that, but he has to win the nomination first, and we haven't had the first debate yet, let alone the first primary.

When did Democrats become so dismissive of debating issues? Not a winning trend, IMO.