It bothers me that Harris's attack on Biden was apparently coldly calculated in advance,

[highplainsdem]

to the point of her campaign having that childhood photo of her ready to tweet right after she went after Biden.

That element of calculation seemed to change what I might otherwise have seen as a spontaneous and very moving moment to rehearsed political theater.

Effective debate technique? I suppose so, based on my years on a debate team.

Effective courtroom technique? I guess.

Does it make her seem more sympathetic and likable?

Not to me.

The element of calculation undercut the emotional message.

[RHMerriman]

1. What a hurtful thing to say...

What a hurtful thing to say...

[emmaverybo]

24. LOL. That was a gotcha. nt

[DemocracyMouse]

206. The black community has EVERY right to confront insensitivity in any way that works.

Whether you confront white indifference, white exploitation or white stupidity. And I'm white! Bravo Kamala! Bravo! And I agree, if left to the states, segregation in the schools IN THE SOUTH would give black children a second rate or even third rate education.

Man o man, just when you claw your way – despite the odds – to become a major presidential contender, you get belittled FOR THINKING THROUGH A DEBATE IN ADVANCE? Really?

[emmaverybo]

211. Oh my gawd. Biden needs to be stronger, but he does not represent represent the panoply

of white deficits and evils you rattle off. And no need to flame. I read each post seriously.

[DemocracyMouse]

215. I wasn't "flaming" - I'm genuinely sick of this "get Kamala" bullying, when the problem was...

Biden being tone deaf to his electorate.

Flaming? No, I do not like white superiority in any form.

[emmaverybo]

222. Well, ok. Yes, you were writing in caps. You feel anger on behalf of Harris. Every person here will

see this incident from a mix of their own personal experiences, political orientation, identity, and pressing concerns, many of which may be widely shared.

Your intense dislike of white superiority and perception of that in particular people, or whole demographics, is far and wide a feeling others also have. I would have thought that Obama as sharp and sensitive as he was would have picked up on Biden’s white superiority complex or surely
his endorsers, his press secretary, his many political contacts.

I see no basis for believing that we, in the minority on DU, challenging Harris’s approach the other night are doing so out of a need to protect Biden’s white privilege or if we are white, our own. She has her share of black critics. I fiercely disliked Hilary and perceived her as using racism against
Obama when I thought he must be president as I felt he was a once in a lifetime presidential candidate, once in a century leader.

I get it. That part anyway, having such a strong sense of one person’s strengths against another’s,
I think many here would think me sick for believing Hilary tapped into racism to try to defeat Obama.

So here we are already suffering effects of a skirmish and we have just begun.

Have a good evening, night, morning?

[DemocracyMouse]

256. Your thoughts are beautifully expressed and I agree with much of it...

... except Hillary's problem was not just racism. It was unconscious class superiority which she could never shake.

Biden has worked for decades on behalf of civil rights, but as a recently shared video has shown, he did oppose busing and tried to underplay the white southern proclivity to dehumanize the people they once enslaved. Harris had every right to point that out. If she got emotional it's because it just fucking sucks to be treated like your concerns have no value year after year, decade after decade. There's an eruption going on in society in which the cell phone has revealed the frontlines of white cruelty towards the black community —that would be the deeply uneducated portion of the police.

Yes, not all whites are racists, but we have an obligation to make room for, and even celebrate, African American rebellion. Even more, we should be rebelling with them. The social pyramid which produces racism also produces an under class in every ethnic group. It just so happens that blacks have been oppressed far longer and deeoer than any marginalized group.

My initial statement was not about the candidates and their worthiness. It was simply about Kamala Harris' right, even obligation, to address the question of whether Biden understood the bitter culture of white superiority which was, and is, so concentrated in the South, but can be found everywhere. Things ARE changing, but they don't change without a (nonviolent) fight.

[emulatorloo]

320. Hillary grew up middle class. Trump grew up rich. Your "class superiority" theory can't be

supported really.

You may not remember how controversial was in the 70’s. Implementation revealed a lot of flaws and unexpected negatives. Liberals and African Americans questioned it. Jimmy Carter came out against. Bernie Sanders was against it in the 70’s as well.

I understand if one removes all social and cultural context, the impulse might be to attack Biden as some purveyor of the “bitter culture of white superiority”. But his actual record is pro-Civil Rights.

Can you point to anything in the last 20 years of Biden’s career that promotes “white superiority”?

[cannabis_flower]

357. I see what you did there!

Last edited Sat Jun 29, 2019, 07:16 PM - Edit history (1)

You said the last 20 years so we could exclude all of the draconian anti-crime bills passed before 1999. They were fueled by racist rhetoric and resulted in racist enforcement and hundreds of thousand poor and/or black or Hispanic young people going to jail. That was multiplied by laws that stripped these unfortunate people of the opportunity to rehabilitate themselves because they weren't able to get assistance for college and were excluded from public housing.


This says it even better.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/27/us/politics/joe-biden-crime-bill-mass-incarceration.html

[emulatorloo]

387. Much of AA Community was behind the crime bill. Progressive Senator Bernie Sanders voted for it

Last edited Sun Jun 30, 2019, 12:44 PM - Edit history (1)

Context free attacks are context free.

I said 20 years because I want to hear DU come up with objections in recent history. Because recent history is what counts in evaluating a candidate.

I doubt you want DU to dwell on Warren’s Republicanism do you? Because that’s not relevant.

See also:

If we are going to go back decades to find issues on
https://www.democraticunderground.com/1287179349

[Demsrule86]

392. What about a more recent time when Sen. Harris was the DA and AG ?

Check out her policies on incarceration for non-violent offenses, body cams...and police shootings. I find that far more important and frankly disturbing.

[cannabis_flower]

396. Well considering that

The discussion was about Biden and I'm not for Harris, it sounds like just a bit of whataboutism and an attempt to change the subject.

[Demsrule86]

398. It is the reason I support your candidate if for some reason Biden isn't in it...and I think he will

be...so you have no interest in the background of Harris just Biden...Okay then. I wasn't planning to support anyone in the primary if Biden was for some reason out..but I changed my mind after a bit of research.

[dawg day]

311. Also, frankly, who gets called "coldly calculating" ?

Seems like "shrill"-- the sort of thing that is a fault in a woman, but not even noticed in a man.

Eric Swallwell, after all, had the Biden quote he threw at Biden all prepared too. Was that "coldly calculating?"

Or maybe it's just "being prepared".

[onetexan]

254. Right. And thats proven by AA support for Joe going up 18%

Right after the debate.

[Demsrule86]

271. Oh please that was not what went on...a political hit...lets not pretend this was a profound moment.

It was no such thing. And that is why it will fail. It was not genuine...Pres. Obama was always genuine and so is Biden...this was contrived and not convincing. As the facts emerge, it is going to hurt her. I would appreciate it if she (and others) would lay off Pres. Obama who is the greatest president of my lifetime and should not be targeted by Democrats or their supporters during this primary.

[True Blue American]

282. Obama is the epitome

Of an Educated, brilliant man with true feelings for humanity.

A small example is how children, babies and older, not to mention his dogs react to him.

https://images.app.goo.gl/d1w3La5LiiqSuhPF9

[Demsrule86]

319. I adore Pres. Obama. He was the best president of my lifetime...

[guillaumeb]

336. What an excellent response.

Actually being prepared for a debate.

And on the other side, being unprepared to defend what was done, or not done, about racism.

[ariadne0614]

360. +1 n/t

[RHMerriman]

302. Harris does not strike me as angry, she strikes me as both emotional and cynical...

Harris does not strike me as angry, she strikes me as both emotional and cynical, which is a strange and not especially appealing mix.

The repeated "I don't believe you're a racist, but..." statements, smearing Joe Biden as a crypto-racist, and then making a t-shirt out of it to raise money? Says a lot to me about her thinking at this point in the race, and I voted for her for AG and Senator.

And again, she's the child of two BERKELEY (University of California) Phds, who grew up in the Bay Area and MONTREAL in the 1970s, where her mother taught at McGill, for god's sakes ... not exactly the mean streets.

There are today and were a lot of poor kids in California in the 1960s and 1970s; in the grand scheme of things, Sen. Harris was far from the worst off of all of the little girls born in 1964.

[brush]

275. Sorry, Biden has no one to blame but himself.

Why in hell did he bring up his interactions with long-forgotten segregationists.

It was an unforced error of his own making. No one would even be talking about it if he hadn't bought it up.

That and the Hyde Amendment thing makes two unforced error already and the campaign is young. He's got to steer clear of mine fields of his own making or his front runner status will be short-lived.

[RHMerriman]

303. Undoubtedly, but it says a lot about Harris that her team seized on

Undoubtedly, but it says a lot about Harris that her team seized on it.

Harris does not strike me as angry, she strikes me as both emotional and cynical, which is a strange and not especially appealing mix.

The repeated "I don't believe you're a racist, but..." statements, smearing Joe Biden as a crypto-racist, and then making a t-shirt out of it to raise money?

Says a lot to me about her thinking at this point in the race, and I voted for her for AG and Senator.

[brush]

309. Politics is not bean bags. IMO it shows that she manages to display her skills and shine...

when the opportunity comes up. She did the same during the Kavanaugh hearings and the Barr hearing. She's a sharp cookie and the Party would be well served if she were the one on stage with trump during general election debates.

Joe would do well against trump too but he's got to get there. He hasn't shown himself to be a good primary campaigner in his previous presidential runs. He's got to up his game.

[RHMerriman]

312. Kavanaugh and Barr, however, are our enemies...

Kavanaugh and Barr, however, are our enemies...

Biden - and the voters he potentially can bring into play in 2020 - are not.

Biden can take her apart on her - to be honest - fairly mixed record as a county DA and state AG - and I say that as someone who voted for her for AG and Senator. The obvious example:

https://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/How-an-SF-cop-killing-case-could-haunt-Kamala-13558890.php]

and

https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/SAN-FRANCISCO-Police-mourn-hero-who-refused-to-2766747.php]

Of course, so can Trump ... hence the problem.

I really don't see this as having any lasting benefit to her candidacy; if anything, it makes her look cynical.

[brush]

326. Mixed record? Seriously? Sorry, but Joe was defending "states rights" as his response to her...

so him being able to take her apart is questionable—especially with Anita Hill, the crime bill and pro-busing stances on his own mixed record.

Again, it's his fault that anyone is even talking about segregationists from forty years ago. He bought it up. He's got to avoid unforced errors.

[emulatorloo]

338. Do you have anything Biden did on race in the last 20 years that's objectionable?

Yes Senator Harris will get unfairly attacked by the twitterverse etc if she gets out of single digit polling

I’ll defend any Democrat against unfair attacks. I like all our candidates, they are all good people.

[brush]

341. Again, Joe is the one who bought up segregationists from 40 years ago.

I will vote for him if he gets the nomination but he's got to avoid the unforced errors like this and the Hyde Amendment thing. It's early in the campaign. No more, pls.

[RHMerriman]

354. Are you really arguing that supporting federally-ordered mandatory busing of public school children

Are you really arguing that supporting federally-ordered mandatory busing of public school children from middle-income neighborhood schools to poor neighborhood schools at significant distances from the neighborhoods where the middle income kids live is a winning move for the Democratic presidential candidate in 2019 against an incumbent Republican?

Because if you are, self-righteousness aside, get used to four more years of the Trump Administration. Yay...

Sen. Harris and I are the same age; she grew up the biracial child of two University of California Phds. I grew up the biracial child of a Central Valley farmhand and a sales clerk who together - barely - had two high school diplomas between them.

As a Californian who voted FOR her for attorney general AND US Senate, her strategy here is self-defeating and, frankly, pretty damn insulting.

[BootinUp]

397. I don't get it either. Nt

[RHMerriman]

416. There are some pretty good old-fashioned words that come to mind...

There are some pretty good old-fashioned words that come to mind...

]

Which side are you on boys?
Which side are you on?
Which side are you on boys?
Which side are you on?

They say in Harlan County
There are no neutrals there.
You'll either be a union man
Or a thug for J. H. Blair.

Which side are you on boys?
Which side are you on?
Which side are you on boys?
Which side are you on?

My dady was a miner,
And I'm a miner's son,
He'll be with you fellow workers
Until this battle's won.

Which side are you on?
Which side are you on?
Which side are you on?
Which side are you on?

Oh workers can you stand it?
Oh tell me how you can?
Will you be a lousy scab
Or will you be a man?

Which side are you on?
Which side are you on?
Which side are you on?
Which side are you on?

Come all you good workers,
Good news to you I'll tell
Of how the good old union
Has come in here to dwell.

Which side are you on?
Which side are you on?
Which side are you on?
Which side are you on?


She's a blue falcon. Period.

I've lost all respect for her, and I voted for her in 2010, 2014, and 2016, and urged others to vote for her...

If she's the Democratic nominee, I'll vote for her, but only as the lesser of two evils.

[emmaverybo]

394. He was not responsible for damaging Hill or even trying to. Clarence Thomas, ironically, used

a claim of racial injustice to deflect from her case against him. Biden got a hearing for her grievance, launched no attack on her credibility, but tested Thomas’s.

He voted against Thomas twice. He has always supported Hill’s case against Thomas and praised her throughout the years.

Never was a case of Biden vs. Hill. Thomas, by lying, and conservatives, through smears, attacked her credibility and reputation.

At the time, Hill had little support from the African-American public who believed that the hearing was racist as Thomas claimed. Dems on the committee were cowed, politically in a bind, with Kennedy snd others, except for Biden, playing softball with Thomas, or not playing at all.

Anyone wanting to weigh in should either get a video of proceedings or a full transcript.

[brush]

399. Biden unfortunately as chairman of the committee didn't allow other women...

Last edited Mon Jul 1, 2019, 11:12 PM - Edit history (1)

to testify against Thomas who would've bolstered Hill's testimony. You left that out.

But we all need to stop talking about the past—especially Joe as stances that seemed reasonable 40 years ago may not look too good in 2019.

[emmaverybo]

412. One woman refused to. He weighed calling on her as a hostile witness. Counsel to the

committee advised that her testimony would make things worse. He could have subpoenaed her. There was an agreed to time limit. He has wondered if he should not have taken advice and called in the reluctant witness.

The other two witness testimonies Biden deemed would not be an advantage to making Hill’s case.

It was a hard one to make as her claim was about verbal sexual harassment ten years previously and she had continued to work for Thomas and have contact with him. Obviously, he was powerful and she needed his recommendation. Given the context of the time, sexual harassment was hard to understand. Pinned about going to work for him after he had harassed her, she could only say that the committee could not understand sex harassment.

There was no fix in to give her an unfair hearing on his part. The opposite is true. This process
for evaluating claims that can not go on to trial must not be let stand. No woman should have to
testify in a partisan and non-judicial setting.

Biden has never said his handling of the hearing was perfect.

We should move on, but unfair accusations and a complete misunderstanding about Biden's role
persist. To apologize to her is to court these mischaracterizations. Or he could say that Thomas played the race card, Hill was not particularly strong on her behalf, the case was no slam dunk, and
black women were expendable while his fellow Dems were scared to death of political fall out that might affect their liberal reputations if they hammered Thomas.

Yes, let’s move on.

[Demsrule86]

363. She created this 'opportunity' And it was dishonest too...facts don't add up...t-shirt ready to

sell the night of the debate...I do not consider she had even a little bit of shine...it was faked and contrived in my opinion...fifty year old polity?r Run on Busing Sen Harris. Why that will go over well with the electorate...what year was that picture taken? Hmmm..

[brush]

371. You're blaming her for Joe's misstep? He inexplicably bought up the incident...

with the segregationists. Hope he learns to leave incidents like that in the past. Mentioning it has cost him nothing but trouble. And Harris is not the only African American upset by it.

It wasn't a smart move.

[ucrdem]

372. He'd mentioned it before so she probably had it ready to go before that fundraiser.

Politico has an article about how she plotted it for months. She probably just tied it into his latest gaffe.

[brush]

373. He is known to be gaffe-prone but this was way more than a gaffe. Hope he gets past it...

Last edited Mon Jul 1, 2019, 07:45 PM - Edit history (2)

and other recollections of segregationists as he can beat trump in the general. He just has to get to the general, which he hasn't had much luck at in his other presidential runs.

[Thekaspervote]

401. She.. harris has said herself "they" she and campaign staff had been planning this for months

So... even if biden had not brought it up..she certainly intended to

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

430. Yeah, that t-shirt thing did kinda make people wonder.

Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!!

[LongtimeAZDem]

298. Smack!

[RHMerriman]

305. Says a lot about Harris that her team

Says a lot about Harris that her team seized on this as her way to distinguish herself.

The same attack aimed at Trump would have been impressive; this, against Biden, is simply cynicism.

[LongtimeAZDem]

317. And playing the "you hurt my feelings" card is not exactly presidential

[RHMerriman]

356. Nope ... it's actually pretty much an admission of weakness.

Nope ... it's actually pretty much an admission of weakness.

I guarantee that Putin, Xi, and all the rest aren't going to give a shit if they hurt her feelings.

And Trump sure as hell isn't.

[emmaverybo]

381. Hope she doesn't do that if she ever debates that crude lump. He'd hurt 'em some more.

[tishaLA]

414. why do you put quotation marks around things she didn't say?

[emulatorloo]

321. It seems weird to me that DU is projecting Donald Trump's very real racism onto Biden

Biden has a solid record on Civil Rights. Trump has a solid record of racism, coddles White Supremacists and Neo-Nazis.

[RHMerriman]

358. Nothing like self-righteousness to make weak people feel strong...

True re Biden.

But there's nothing like self-righteousness to make weak people feel strong...

Those of us who have to scrap for everything we can get for us and ours don't have time or energy to announce our self pity to the world.

Her parents were both PHDs, for chrissakes ... boo fucking hoo.

[emmaverybo]

382. Very strange. Biden wants to defeat the White Supremacist enabler. He rolled out his campaign

on that mission.

[Thekaspervote]

402. Indeed!!

[RelativelyJones]

427. That's exactly what's happening.

[left-of-center2012]

2. Every candidate preplans a "Gotcha moment"

It's campaign strategy.

[highplainsdem]

4. Preplanned gotcha moments aren't IMO half as effective as genuine, spontaneous reactions.

And the tweet with the photo effectively moved that moment of the debate from the latter to the former.

[UniteFightBack]

158. You know what also works....humor...but it's easier to just go low. nt

[TheBlackAdder]

160. One person did their homework, the other one blew off their debate prep as reported by his aids.

.

If it wasn't her, it would have been the GOP later on.

.

[cwydro]

224. His aides say he "blew off" debate prep?

Link?

[TheBlackAdder]

240. Yup, per TBOGG directly.

.

Biden staff ‘freaking out’ — and frustrated that he didn’t take debate prep seriously: report

According to a series of tweets from New York Magazine’s Olivia Nuzzi, members of Vice President Joe Biden’s campaign staff were appalled Thursday night over how badly his debate performance played out.

On an evening where the highlight was the scolding Biden received from Sen. Kamala Harris (D-CA), Nuzzi tweeted that a source close to the campaign told her the vice president’s staff was “freaking out.”

“A source close to the Biden campaign tells me his staff is ‘freaking out’ about his poor performance tonight,” she wrote, before adding, “The source said that internally, field staff says the campaign-organized debate watch parties in early voting states have been ‘awkward’ and that Biden isn’t playing well to those who attended.”

Nuzzi also stated that staffers complained Biden did not take his debate prep seriously, which was a concern going into the debate.

Tweets at link.

https://www.rawstory.com/2019/06/biden-staff-freaking-out-and-frustrated-that-he-didnt-take-debate-prep-seriously-report/

.

[cwydro]

263. This is troubling on a number of levels.

The first worry for me is that his campaign is apparently leading like a sieve. Not a good thing.

[Demsrule86]

322. She lost me ...I never thought she could win a general...but as VP maybe...hell if Biden was gone,

I probably would have voted for her in the primary...not anymore...she gets my vote in the general and of course GOTV...but I won't support her in the primary ...she was not authentic and and was pretending to be all emotional-she sold t-shirts for God's sake...didn't like it in a presidential candidate...as I stated before...never liked dirty trick especially in a primary...save that shit for a general...and I predict this will (or has) backfired, and she won't be the nominee.

[Cha]

3. Well, it worked I guess.. she's "the star" of

the night.

We'll see how it pans out.. to use a gold mining analogy.

[Honeycombe8]

17. If it's any help to you, it turned me off her.

I'm not a supporter of either Biden or Harris, but I was pretty impressed with her at the debate. She was rockin' it. But that exchange with Biden put me off. To play the race card with Biden, preplanned like that...I knew why she'd done it. She and Booker are going after Biden's AA support. So I get it. But IMO she misrepresented what he had worked in decades ago.

Anyway, it turned me off her. Although I wasn't a supporter of hers to begin with, so may not mean much.

[onetexan]

29. if Kamala attacked Biden to gain AA support, she did just the opposite

i read earlier Biden's support from AA voters shot up 18%. The old adage still holds: "Be careful what you wish for".

Kamala is very sharp. But trying to knock the front runner with such impressive records is just dumb.

[Cha]

42. It means something.. Thank You, Honeycombe!

like I said in another thread.. I can see why she felt the need to attack the front runner.. not sure it helped with the African American Community, though..

Link to tweet

And, of course, the Mayor of Atlanta's Endorsement.

So we'll see how it's working down the road.. we're still just getting started on the campaign trail.

[Thekaspervote]

403. Indeed! Pollsters keep saying SC is the bellwether for the AA vote

Take a little peek here. You may have to click the state scroll down bar as it flips

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-primary-d/south-carolina/

[Cha]

408. Thank You, Thekaspervote!

[Mme. Defarge]

57. Moi aussi!

I thought Warren gave a vastly more substantive performance the previous night. I was not impressed with Harris’s emotionalism and largely unsupported slogans and sound bites. Her contrived and cheap shot at Biden sealed the “no deal” for me.

On the other hand, as our general election candidate, she might just win the day and save our republic as we know it by calling out Trump for being hurtful.

[PatSeg]

128. I was pretty impressed with Harris's

debate performance for the most part, but I immediately saw the "race card" move as very scripted and political. I still like her, but I wish she and Booker would stop with this issue. It doesn't seem to be winning any support from the Black community, but the talking heads and pundits love it.

Yes, it rather turned me off as well. I've seen this sort of thing before in primaries and it rarely serves anyone well, except maybe republicans.

[people]

185. Do white candidates ever play the race card?

Why does a supporter of civil rights want to reassure people that he can work with segregationists? Is he trying to reassure white people? Was his mention of those particular men playing the race card?

[StarfishSaver]

195. No, because they're white and don't have a race. They're just "people."

I think that's how it goes.

[JI7]

202. the entire republican party is is about playing the race card in favor of white people

[FakeNoose]

194. I read Kamala's book a few months ago

... and one of the things I remember from it is that she and her sister who grew up in a poorer section of Oakland, CA benefited greatly by the busing program of the late 60's and early 70's.

As a result of busing, they went to a better school in a predominantly white neighborhood and received a better education as a result. Both Kamala and her sister were in the college prep track and did well in their SATs and college entrances. School busing was a good thing for her family and I feel it was disingenuous (but coldly calculated) of her to attack Biden because of how he voted so long ago.

The school busing program WAS controversial and experimental. It DID create winners and losers, however she was one of the winners. Kamala should have been more forthcoming on that info, and a little less angry in her unfair attack on Joe Biden.

[PatSeg]

260. She has a great story

and certainly can be viewed as the poster child for school busing years ago, but I don't see the angry attack on Joe as constructive. Also I get tired of candidates using debates for stump speeches instead of actual debate. I know they want to utilize that valuable time to get their message out to as many people as possible, but as a viewer, I find it much too calculated and political. Less performance and more actual debate would be my preference.

When I see candidates and their surrogates on television, I don't want to see scripted soundbites or campaign speeches, I want to hear authentic answers to real questions. After awhile, the entire primary season begins to look like one endless campaign ad.

[dawg day]

313. "The race card?" You mean referring to her own experience?

Is there any other candidate you want to say played some "card"?

[PatSeg]

366. There is a reason I put "race card" in quotes

It is the way others have referred to it. My problem was the fact that it was very scripted and planned, too much like a stump speech, not a debate response. Most candidates do it, as they are trying to take advantage of the free air time, but it gets tiresome after awhile.

When I watch a debate, I want to see a debate, not a political ad, a sound bite, or a campaign speech. God knows, we will see plenty of those in the upcoming months.

[emmaverybo]

395. She misrepresented her own story. She was not bused under Federal mandate. NT

[Skya Rhen]

5. I agree with you 1,000%. She showed me the real Kamala, last night. I am disgusted.

[dem4decades]

8. So you're not buying a T shirt?

The timing of that was worse than the photo too me at least.

[highplainsdem]

11. Agree that the rush to sell the t-shirt was also bad, and also probably planned

well in advance.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

54. Yeah, I have to agree with you there... t-shirts, really?!

Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!!

[Mme. Defarge]

66. A crass and blatant giveaway

as to her true intent.

[highplainsdem]

134. Re the t-shirt -- check out the replies to the CBS News tweet and story about it:

Link to tweet

Some of the replies there:

And now it loses all sincerity



Yeah, she absolutely did not plan that attack on Biden



Just lost some respect for Kamala. (which got a "You and me both" response from another Twitter user)


This was planned, not necessary to attack a fellow Democrat. Just make your point on what you stand for. Why you should be the nominee. Don't go 'Trump' on people in your own party!! The tshirts? Tacky.....



yuck.



Be interesting to find out when that Purchase Order was created so those shirts could be printed and ready for shipment. (which got the response "I’m sure not long after the debate dates were televised"

[chimpymustgo]

369. LOVE the t-shirt, LOVE the debate smackdown. Kamala's got the smarts and moxie to

take down Trump. Keep an open mind. Biden's time has come and gone IMO.

[pnwmom]

13. That photo took no time to find because it has been out there for MONTHS,

in multiple articles about her.

So the fact that her campaign could tweet it out quickly means nothing.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

20. T-shirts take a little longer.

They could probably get a batch printed up within a day, but they still would have had to have been ordered in advance of the debate in order to be available right after.

[pnwmom]

45. So? She's been telling that personal story for months now. Nicolle Wallace said that

Biden should have had a good response ready because Biden was at a previous event where Harris talked about being a little girl taking a bus to a better school, for desegregation. That is a point she has been making for months -- that she has succeeded in life in part because of advances in civil rights that need to continue.

ON EDIT: Her online shop has them available for preorder, to be shipped starting July 11. So they weren't instantly available, except to anyone who could pull a copy of the photo off the internet.

[3Hotdogs]

111. "....succeeded in life in part because of advances in civil rights...."

Nothing to do with her PhD educated parents?

Sorry Kamela, no contributions or primary vote from me.

[luvtheGWN]

117. President Obama's parents

were both PhDs.

Sure would be nice to have a president with a high IQ in the White House once again.

[3Hotdogs]

118. Yeah. Well I just hope it ain't her.

[Thekaspervote]

404. Oh I have to agree!!

[pnwmom]

137. I said, "in part." She could only attend the public school she did because of

the desegregation program her city (Berkeley) voluntarily put in place, in order to avoid having the Federal government mandate its own program.

[Demsrule86]

323. She was not an inner city kid...educated parents...lived in Berkley...wait until the oppo research

starts flowing in...

[pnwmom]

328. I am familiar with Berkeley, are you?

The "flats" in Berkeley did not have the same quality schools as those in the hills. Because of the busing program, she was bused to much wealthier schools in the hills.

And now, because of the busing program that began 50 years ago, the resources have been evenly distributed throughout the district, so wealthier parents don't mind having their children bused down to the flats.

[Demsrule86]

329. We were there when I was little, it was a very nice place as I remember it...

I don't buy her story for even a minute...we shall see.

[pnwmom]

335. Parts of it weren't so nice. Your parents might not have taken you there.

Her parents were only grad students when she was in elementary. Grad students can't afford nice places in the hills, or in pretty places near the U.

[Demsrule86]

364. Yeah...and what year was that picture taken? I went to schools that were not that great to...my

parents were in the Navy...I was born at Great Lakes in fact. I just found the entire thing contrived...and I wouldn't have liked it if she attacked another candidate in that manner either...I won't support her in any primary...only in the general...the t-shirt thing was it for me...this was a pre-planned hit...on a Democrat...and the sort of thing that really should not be used in a primary.

[pnwmom]

365. Were you forced to go to a certain school or prevented from living in a nicer neighborhood

because you were white?

[jberryhill]

48. They can be printed to order

Cafepress has been running a custom-print-on-order business for years. Volume is not an issue.

[highplainsdem]

16. I'm not disgusted by her, but I was disappointed to realize how calculated what I'd first thought

were spontaneous comments really were.

I guess I'd give her an A for political theater and acting, but the obvious calculation her campaign's tweet revealed has left me wondering how much acting she'll be doing at any time in the future.

[techne7319]

153. So...

So she’s been telling this story for a while now. Biden has been aware of it as well. He was unprepared. Harris and her team were prepared. But YOU’RE disappointed in HER because YOU though it was spontaneous when it wasn’t, and now it’s HER fault. Sounds like a personal problem

[friend of m and j]

210. Biden was showing his integrity and character by honoring the agreement

all the candidates signed that they would not attack other candidates during the debate. In the 30 seconds he had to respond to her accusation that he voted against school busing to achieve integration of schools. No one understood what he meant was he voted against having the Federal Dept. of Education set up the busing system to achieve integration so the local school system or city officials could design the busing plan. She left the impression that Biden was opposed to integrating schools.

[techne7319]

213. I have no doubt...

Biden will be fine as long as he doesn’t have to answer any tough debate questions, explain anything clearly, reconcile his political past, or face any criticism because he has.....wait for it...integrity.

[highplainsdem]

249. I have a problem with insincerity and emotional manipulation, which was my takeaway from

Harris's debate performance after it became evident it was rehearsed and staged.

And it isn't my "personal problem" as you should know from all the other posts here from DUers who were put off by what she did. Or check out my other post in this thread about the reactions on Twitter to the t-shirt, replies to a tweet from CBS News.

I never felt a similar letdown after seeing emotional moments with Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton, both of whom, like Harris, tend to be coolly logical most of the time.

As I said, the campaign tweet, and that t-shirt, completely undermined her emotional message.

I think it would have been much smarter of her and her campaign NOT to tweet that photo, or do the t-shirt.

Hell, I'd have been much more impressed if she'd made her points in a very coolly logical manner, rather than with emotion that was rehearsed.

As a feminist, I dislike it when women who can make logical arguments instead deliver a "you hurt me" speech in a hyperemotional voice and it turns out to have been rehearsed and staged.

So I was very disappointed, after having been very impressed by Harris earlier.

I'd give her an A for an acting, and a C- or D+ for sincerity.

And that's one hell of a letdown when she had been one of my favorites.

I haven't completely given up on her yet. But it will be a while before I can listen to her without a certain amount of skepticism.

[emmaverybo]

27. Mining one's own painful and personal history for its political advantage is not a good thing. NT

[jberryhill]

52. Oh my

I hope none of the other candidates attempt to win points in the personal tragedy department.

[pnwmom]

58. LOL. None of the other candidates ever mention their own stories of struggle, do they?

Surely Harris is the first.

[Cha]

79. It's the seemingly "calculated" part that's the objection as well stated in the OP.

[pnwmom]

95. But the OP is wrong about the photo. It's been all over the Internet since January,

if not before. So the fact that it could be quickly tweeted out is meaningless.

Also, Nicolle Wallace says that Biden should have been prepared, because he was at another recent event where Kamala shared the same story of being bused.

The point of the story is that she's afraid the advances in civil rights that were made in past decades, which helped her succeed in life (including being able to go to a better school), are being threatened.


Here is the photo in articles from January.

https://www.latimes.com/books/la-et-jc-kamala-harris-young-photos-20180109-story.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/11/books/kamala-harris-book.html

[3Hotdogs]

113. So she's worried that advances in Civil Rights are threatened.

And Biden is likely to act to rescind those advances?

BULLSHIT !

[pnwmom]

132. No. But he constantly talks about how he's willing to work with the other side.

So the question is how much of our principles he'd be willing to compromise.

Thanks to his leadership on the Senate Judiciary Committee, when he led a majority, we got Clarence Thomas confirmed to the Supreme Court. Biden said there wasn't time to have Anita Hill's supporting witnesses testify in public because he had promised the R's to end the hearings by a particular date. And he thought it was more important to honor his promise to the R's than to extend the hearing by another day so that Anita's witnesses could be heard.

He should have led the Democrats on the committee in voting against confirmation, and insisted on a more middle of the road alternative. Instead, he gave the R's their guy, and we all know how well that worked out. We're still suffering the consequences.

[True Blue American]

237. Biden voted

Against Thomas, tried to help Hill. This is just another fake story like the one about what Biden really said.

The speech Biden made yesterday was really great on his real record. If his approval with AA went up 18% then all is well. We can now move on to defeating Trump and Republicans like McConnell.

[StarfishSaver]

245. Biden was chair of the Judiciary Committee. We needed him to do more than just vote no.

[pnwmom]

291. So? He made decisions that made it easier for other Dems to vote yes.

Multiple members have said that if the other women had testified that would have made a difference. And it's just common sense. If those women had testified the public would not have supported his confirmation.

[emulatorloo]

340. But Harris said she agreed with Biden on working with the other side though

[pnwmom]

343. We have decades of Biden's career showing us how he's worked

with the other side.

And it should give progressives pause.

[emulatorloo]

347. But Harris explicitly said to Biden that she agreed with him on working with the other side.

That was the core of you argument, so your argument falls apart.

Once again I’d love to see a positive post from you about your favorite candidates and why Undecided DU’ers should consider your favorites.

[pnwmom]

349. Clarence Thomas is my main argument.

Nothing Harris has done can compare. If she'd been heading that Committee, Clarence Thomas wouldn't be on the Court. Anita's witnesses would have been called.

If you haven't seen positive posts from me, then you haven't been paying attention. That's not my problem.

[pnwmom]

410. The issue is HOW you work with the other side. And whether Biden's compromises

have gone too far.

For example, he worked with the other side to help Clarence Thomas be put on the Supreme Court. He made a public statement that Thomas's "character" was not at issue. That was NOT a good way of working with the other side. As the head of the Judiciary committee, he could have refused to consider the nomination and told the R's to try again. He could AT LEAST have allowed Anita Hill's corroborating witnesses to testify.

When Harris says she agrees about working with the other side, I'm sure she doesn't include working with them by confirming people like Thomas to SCOTUS.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/what-joe-biden-hasnt-owned-up-to-about-anita-hill

Biden failed to acknowledge that, as the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee in 1991, he set many of “the rules” that damaged Hill and determined the over-all fairness of the process. As Jill Abramson and I reported in our 1994 book about the Thomas confirmation fight, “Strange Justice,” several of Biden’s Democratic colleagues in the Senate later acknowledged that, in his eagerness to be impeccably fair to all sides, Biden got outmaneuvered by the Republicans. That left Hill and, ultimately, the truth undefended. As Howard Metzenbaum, a crusty Democrat from Ohio, later admitted, “Joe bent over too far backwards to accommodate the Republicans, who were going to get Thomas on the Court come hell or high water.” An adviser to Ted Kennedy, the Massachusetts liberal whose own womanizing eroded his credibility, was more critical still, saying, “Biden agreed to the terms of the people who were out to disembowel Hill.”

Even one of the top lawyers on Biden’s Senate staff at the time, Cynthia Hogan, now faults their handling of the hearings. As she admitted this week to the Washington Post, “What happened is we got really politically outplayed by the Republicans.” Hogan, now the vice-president for public policy for the Americas at Apple, explained that Biden had wanted to be seen as a neutral arbiter, while the Republicans instead wanted to win. “They came with a purpose, and that purpose was to destroy Anita Hill. Democrats did not coordinate and they did not prepare for battle. I think he would say that that’s what should be done differently.”

Meanwhile, Hill sent a statement describing Thomas’s sexual harassment of her to Biden’s staff. On September 27, 1991, the Judiciary Committee was scheduled to vote on Thomas’s confirmation, sending it to the rest of the Senate for final approval. Unexpectedly, the committee split evenly, showing more opposition to Thomas than expected. The public still knew nothing. But when Biden himself voted against Thomas in committee, he made a cryptic public statement warning against the idea that Thomas’s character should be an issue. “I believe there are certain things that are not at issue at all,” Biden said, “and that is his character. This is about what he believes.” Further, Biden admonished, “I know my colleagues will refrain, and I urge everyone else to refrain from personalizing this battle.”

[Thekaspervote]

405. Yes it should... Americans by overwhelming poll approval want the 2 sides to work together

Hillary openly admits to working across the isle. “Enemy of my enemy my friend.” Politics makes strange bedfellows for all ... this is true for every last single one of our candidates. So, if someone can work with the WORST of the worst and get things done that benefit everyone while not giving away the farm.. need I say More??

[pnwmom]

411. It matters HOW you work with the other side. In his eagerness to work with the other side,

he helped the R's confirm Clarence Thomas, even though he had the votes to stop the confirmation. He made a public statement in the middle of the confirmation process that Thomas's character wasn't at issue. (Though it certainly was!) He didn't even allow Anita's three corroborating witnesses to testify. In your words, he gave "away the farm."

And we've been living with the consequences ever since.


https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/what-joe-biden-hasnt-owned-up-to-about-anita-hill

Biden failed to acknowledge that, as the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee in 1991, he set many of “the rules” that damaged Hill and determined the over-all fairness of the process. As Jill Abramson and I reported in our 1994 book about the Thomas confirmation fight, “Strange Justice,” several of Biden’s Democratic colleagues in the Senate later acknowledged that, in his eagerness to be impeccably fair to all sides, Biden got outmaneuvered by the Republicans. That left Hill and, ultimately, the truth undefended. As Howard Metzenbaum, a crusty Democrat from Ohio, later admitted, “Joe bent over too far backwards to accommodate the Republicans, who were going to get Thomas on the Court come hell or high water.” An adviser to Ted Kennedy, the Massachusetts liberal whose own womanizing eroded his credibility, was more critical still, saying, “Biden agreed to the terms of the people who were out to disembowel Hill.”

Even one of the top lawyers on Biden’s Senate staff at the time, Cynthia Hogan, now faults their handling of the hearings. As she admitted this week to the Washington Post, “What happened is we got really politically outplayed by the Republicans.” Hogan, now the vice-president for public policy for the Americas at Apple, explained that Biden had wanted to be seen as a neutral arbiter, while the Republicans instead wanted to win. “They came with a purpose, and that purpose was to destroy Anita Hill. Democrats did not coordinate and they did not prepare for battle. I think he would say that that’s what should be done differently.”

Meanwhile, Hill sent a statement describing Thomas’s sexual harassment of her to Biden’s staff. On September 27, 1991, the Judiciary Committee was scheduled to vote on Thomas’s confirmation, sending it to the rest of the Senate for final approval. Unexpectedly, the committee split evenly, showing more opposition to Thomas than expected. The public still knew nothing. But when Biden himself voted against Thomas in committee, he made a cryptic public statement warning against the idea that Thomas’s character should be an issue. “I believe there are certain things that are not at issue at all,” Biden said, “and that is his character. This is about what he believes.” Further, Biden admonished, “I know my colleagues will refrain, and I urge everyone else to refrain from personalizing this battle.”

[Ligyron]

135. You can recognize it's her even as a little girl.

That one of her in pigtails looks just like her now, same facial expression.

Amazing actually.

[pnwmom]

138. I love that photo. What a strong little girl. n/t

[pnwmom]

101. And when do Democrats ever accuse white male Democrats of being "calculating"?

Why is that such a gendered word?

[mobeau69]

133. IKR

[emmaverybo]

353. I don't think they will attack rivals in service of their own ambitions, armed with personal

stories, using themselves as an example of an injustice they claim competition was responsible for.
And not when it could be discovered that they are not an example.

Harris was not bused by Federal order. She voluntarily chose to be bused to a better school in the Berkley Hills from her house in the Berkley flatlands, where she did not live in a segregated neighborhood, an “inner city,” or a barrio.

Berkley, in the era when she was voluntarily transported to an excellent school, was, as it still is, one of the most liberal towns in California with a diverse population, abounding with cultural riches and intellectual opportunities. Given that Harris’s father was a PhD, her mother a scientist, I
doubt she lacked access to educational experiences at home. It is great she had access to a school that would have been a resource to gifted children as she was undoubtedly one.

On the other hand, Berkley is the bastion of diversity, culturally, racially, in terms of ethnicities, and always had been, supporting artistic and political radicalism. It would be unusual to be “poor” or deprived there, though many of its street people are. It is an integrated community to the extent that any in America are and it has been way back in its history.

[pnwmom]

60. And you, personally, would never support a candidate who did such a thing, would you?

Or maybe you would . . . .

[Cha]

71. It's the seemingly "calculated" part that is objectionable..

[dawg day]

314. Uh, Joe Biden does that frequently, and I don't mind it at all.

He is who he is partly because of his family tragedies, which I learned about from hearing him talk about. Why is that different from Kamala Harris speaking from her own experience?

We don't need to use pejoratives like "mining" and "race card" == Every candidate comes from somewhere, and it's important for us to get to know them in these early months.

[emmaverybo]

331. He has never used personal pain to bring down another candidate not responsible for it, to advance

his own ambitions at the cost to a rival’s good name, to, in sum, publicly attack and defame a rival.

He referred to his son’s death to show that he feels a personal connection to others less fortunate than he, unable to access quality healthcare, and also to demonstrate a personal stake in cancer research, as a way to advocate for “moonshot.”

He has revealed personal pain through loss of his loved ones in reaching out to comfort others in their grief, as he did in parts of his books, and in addressing grief before members of the military who have lost comrades. Among all candidates, he has a history and present-day effectiveness in making an emotional connection with audiences.

If Harris were to use her personal pain, anger, outrage, any personal dynamic, to advocate for reparations or anti-discrimination legislation, or to call out police brutality, or to make an emotional connection with an audience mobilizing to fight against systemic racism in any of its many manifestations, I would support her doing so.

I hope she will.

[COLGATE4]

119. I wish she had used some of that prosecutorial know-how

on Barr rather than wasting it on Biden.

[tishaLA]

179. I remember her being the best interrogator of Barr

It was even on all the cable news shows

[George II]

6. She didn't go after Sanders last night on the issue, even though HE was against busing in the 1970s.

[highplainsdem]

7. Good point.

[tishaLA]

12. I'm sure she'll have a way of using his record against him, too

just like people will use her record against her. And she may not attack the junior senator from VT on busing--or maybe she will!--but it will be for something where she can draw contrasts.

[customerserviceguy]

99. She won't have to go after Bernie

After last night's performance, he's headed downwards all on his own. But it will be interesting to see what she sets up for her first face-to-face debate with Sen. Warren. My guess is that she uses the DNA/Native American appropriation thing.

[Beringia]

103. I wonder if she will try the same thing twice

The candidates now have a heads up on her tactics. Fool me once, fool me twice.

[customerserviceguy]

115. If her poll numbers go up

she will continue with something that works.

[tishaLA]

110. I actually agree re: the junior senator from VT

But she wouldn't use the DNA stuff against Sen Warren. If she did--and her team would tell her this--it would blow up her candidacy. She's too smart for that. If Sen Warren stumbles, I suspect the incoming will be from the junior senator from VT or some gaffe she makes that turns into something larger for whatever extraneous reason

[customerserviceguy]

120. Not necessarily

I don't think she believes it would blow up her candidacy, if she was that "cautious", as she was said to be, she wouldn't have set Joe Biden up in the way that she did.

All she's got to do is talk about people of color throughout American history who have tried to "pass" for white (or white enough) and then launch into a tirade of how hurtful it is for white people to try to pass as a member of a racial minority, whether for financial gain or simply social reasons.

The prosecutor in her will always work to find an opponent's Achilles heel, Warren has handed her this on a silver platter.

[tishaLA]

143. That would be unfortunate if she did that

And it would put her on a "oh hell no" list for me (and, I suspect, many, many other Democrats). It's just too craven

[customerserviceguy]

149. We'll have to wait and see

what happens when Sens. Warren and Harris are on the same debate stage. Harris has already proved that she's willing to "punch up" as the saying goes, and just as VP Biden was her biggest competitor for African-American votes, Warren is her biggest competitor for the "we need a woman as President" voters.

[58Sunliner]

188. Unfortunately, some people are going to be considering how this will play nationally.

That is the main reason I am uncomfortable with Harris and her tactics last night. She took a big risk alienating people nationally. To me she looks like a big risk if she burns her bridges along the way. No matter how many times she says "I respect you but".

[customerserviceguy]

191. That's a prosecutor trick

Express phony "respect" for the witness on the stand, and then destroy them in front of the jury. In that case, it's all about winning, and she knows that most all Democratic voters hate Trump enough to get over her tactics by November.

[58Sunliner]

207. I would bet most won't forget and she doesn't get the nomination. She is not playing to a jury.

[customerserviceguy]

208. She's acting like she is.

If she can gain African-American support by sabotaging Joe Biden, and then later women voters by doing the same to Warren, she might at least come in second in the SC primary, which would give her a mighty boost for Super Tuesday.

[58Sunliner]

362. I think she miscalculated.

Warren supporters like her for her pragmatic approach and thinking through the solutions. If She does a Biden on Warren, they would probably vote for Joe. And according to polls, it did not take support away from Joe, yet. The t-shirt incident as I call it, is also a miscalculation. Lots of people may empathize with her past struggles, but comparatively lots of people of color have dealt with those issues and more without her advantages, and with much more horrific outcomes. And it's not only POC who may look at her making herself the face of adversity and think that she was never homeless, hungry, abused, etc.. She might have done better using someone else's history. And forgoing the t-shirt. JMO. We shall see.

[Thekaspervote]

407. She indeed has to fair well in the SC primary, right now it doesn't look like it's going her way

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-primary-d/south-carolina/

The page flips so you may have to click the state bar on the top left

[customerserviceguy]

409. It looks like

those polls were taken before the debates. It might be interesting see if the debates made a difference. I see from today's CNN poll that her favorables were up, but her unfavorables were the same as before the debate, so in that poll, she's up a bit.

However, I have no idea of the regional distribution of her favorables. I do strongly suspect that in SC, Biden is doing better than he is nationally right now.

[emmaverybo]

36. Worse and worser. Fine for the courtroom, but not for a candidate who leads America out of

the clutches of gross manipulators, propagandizers, and inauthentic exploiters.

[pnwmom]

61. Sanders support has already reached its ceiling, and it's dropping.

She has plenty of time to go after him.

[Cha]

102. You're kidding!? OMG.. BS was against busing, too..Wow..

Hmm.. wonder why she went after Biden then.. let's see.. let me guess.. oh I know!

[George II]

106. Bazinga!

[techne7319]

154. Sanders has...

Last edited Sat Jun 29, 2019, 12:46 AM - Edit history (1)

Sanders has no chance of winning the nomination. Joe has a chance. Joe is her competition. Why waste precious debate time attacking Sanders. Seems like a reasonable strategy to me

[JI7]

204. Sanders does not have much support among minorities

[pnwmom]

9. That childhood photo has long been out there. I found it in SECONDS.

Here it is in articles from January.

https://www.latimes.com/books/la-et-jc-kamala-harris-young-photos-20180109-story.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/11/books/kamala-harris-book.html

[emmaverybo]

114. Why do you keep repeating this? Out there already, but not used in this manipulative context

and for wide consumption until it could serve her ends. Winning at all costs is not to me a winning
look. Winning with integrity is more difficult. I like to see a candidate earn her wins, even her ‘shots” at others.

[pnwmom]

124. Because the whole premise of the OP was that the fact they could quickly tweet out the photo

meant that she told the story in a "calculated" way. But that story had been available WIDELY. In the NY Times, the LA Times, her book -- it's all over the place.

And, despite what some DUers seem to think, candidates get PREPPED for debates. She had even told this story in public recently, according to Nicolle Wallace, so Biden should have been prepared for it.

Biden's problem wasn't that she told the story or asked him the question. It was that he didn't have a good answer for it. But he COULD HAVE if he had been better prepared.

[58Sunliner]

192. No-it was that the exact phrase she used last night was on a t-shirt with the photo,

that was promoted by her official campaign twitter feed after the debate.

[pnwmom]

212. Where was it on her twitter feed? I just looked through her Twitter all day June 27 and 28th

and can't find what you're talking about.

And the t-shirt available for preorder on her online store has no words on it, only a photo, and won't be available till July 11.

Aside from all that, this wasn't the first time she's told the story about being a little girl and riding the bus. Nicolle Wallace had heard her tell the same story at a previous event, and said Biden's team should have prepared him for it.

[58Sunliner]

296. Sorry, it was picked up by CBS news twitter the night of the debate from her campaign Instagram.

So it was a tweet of her Instagram.

[tishaLA]

10. Politicians prepare for debates.

Sen Harris did, just like Sec Clinton did in 16 or Sec Castro and Sen Warren did Wednesday

[techne7319]

14. Oh ok...

Damn her for being smart, strong-willed, and for having a good strategy to win the nomination. She had the confidence to take take her stand. It was a big move which will either work for her or not. We will see, but I don’t see any fault in her tactics.

[StarfishSaver]

155. She's too ambitious

or aggressive

Or something.

[Hekate]

216. Unladylike too

My gods

[melman]

15. She didn't plan his response

That was all him and it was dismal.

[Skya Rhen]

21. I'm sure that he never thought that she would insinuate that he was a racist. Anyone would be taken

aback by that. She knew what she was doing - as a prosecutor, she intended to blindside him. I, too. was shocked by her attack on him and I will not be as forgiving as he might be.

[tishaLA]

23. I mean, it was a story just last weekend.

It couldn't have been a surprise that someone would bring up him comments about working with a segregationist.

[Skya Rhen]

30. Kamala: "I don't believe that you are a racist, but..." In essence, she called him a racist.

A person who is not a racist, like Joe, should be caught off guard by that.

[tishaLA]

40. You're actually misquoting her. She never said "I don't believe you're a racist, but"

she actually said she didn't believe he was a racist AND she joins him with in the belief that people should work across the aisle.

[Blue_true]

83. She didn't call him a racist.

I am not saying this as a putdown toward you, but maybe you need to spend a lot more time around Black people. The way they use words and especially phrases is different from the way Whites use and interpret those words and phrases. When she said "I don't believe that you are a racist", she was saying to him that he was not a racist. Then the "but" came in and that is where she addressed the problem she had with some of his recent words. It was not Harris who brought up the issue of Biden's opposition to busing to integrate schools, Biden brought up that issue little more than a week ago.

[Skya Rhen]

178. No putdown. I am a black woman and proud of it. This is why I speak with cred when I say

that Kamala was accusing him of being a racist.


A DU poster, who apparently does not support Joe, was also honest with his/her remark in the link below (Post #15)...

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1287176134#post15

[Blue_true]

361. Then I defer to you.

It is just my experience led me to a different conclusion. For example, how Blacks use the term "better" versus how Whites use it.

The statement "You better buy 2 pounds of hamburger" comes off differently based upon who heard it. In my experience, Blacks tend to use the sentence above, versus "You should buy 2 pounds of hamburger" that most Whites use. Both are suggestions, but some people will take the first as a demand instead of a suggestion.

[hlthe2b]

238. I'm remind of this quote: "Nothing someone says before the word 'but' really counts"

This sentence formation seeks to inextricably attach the loaded word to the individual named in the sentence.
Like saying "I don't think she's fat, but..." or "He's really not an asshole, but" or ....

The truth is that when one uses such a loaded term (even as with Kamala they then add another phrase with it--e.g and ....agree that we need to work with others...) BUT
then that loaded term is EXACTLY the issue.

This has been studied by linquists across race and culture within English-speaking Americans.

[emmaverybo]

43. Not in this personal a way, with an entire scene played out, using self-revelation to score points.

[tishaLA]

50. Actually, Sen Booker was quite personal about it too

and, with Sen Harris, is was "in a personal way" because it was personal for her because of her personal experience.

[Cha]

112. I'm actually surprise by how many she did turn off..

as related on this board. Even a Kamala supporter whom I respect, and those who aren't even Biden supporters.

[questionseverything]

37. i dont want a prosecutor in general

if you are a hammer everything looks like a nail

I want a fair president that appoints a fair prosecutor

[Thekaspervote]

74. Oh how true!

[defacto7]

130. Hear hear!

[RockRaven]

49. I think a 70-something white career politician would not need to be handled with kid gloves

when it comes to insinuations of racism. It is really not plausible that he has not had plenty of practice addressing racially-tinged political matters and personal accusations with either his constituents, journalists, or other candidates in his 5 decades in politics.

Also as someone who ran in the primary against, then joined the ticket of, the first black POTUS and made a number of statements during that time which got quite a lot of media attention as "gaffes" with allegedly racial overtones.

And as this topic was in the press before the debate, I cannot agree that anything about this was shocking or blindsiding.

[StarfishSaver]

156. This

[Blue_true]

72. BINGO!!!!!! nt

[Mme. Defarge]

88. I beg to differ.

I thought his response was forceful and completely on target. Her maneuver was calculated to exploit the fact that Joe Biden is a decent and caring human being. I’m sure that if she were our general election candidate she would not try to kneecap Trump by accusing him of being “hurtful”.

[womanofthehills]

139. His responsive was too reactive

He was not prepared.

[Mme. Defarge]

151. He reacted to it in proportion to the

cheap shot that it was. He unequivocally defended his record of supporting civil rights throughout his long and distinguished career.

[techne7319]

18. What is up with everyone...

What is up with everyone who thinks Biden’s our clear nominee and thinks he should get a free pass on everything he says, does, or has said or done in the past? Get over yourselves and quit whining about the fact that other well-qualified candidates have differing positions than Biden and want to argue them.

[LakeArenal]

33. Quit whining about who you perceive as whining.

[techne7319]

73. Deny deny deny... attack

Classic response from a Biden supporter. Flip the script. Change the subject. Avoid answering the question. You know it’s a valid question I’m asking. The Biden supporters and the whole “joe is untouchable” mentality that is common here in DU is ridiculous

[Galraedia]

175. Harris uses identity politics to attack her opponents.

It's pathetic. If Democrats want to put forth a candidate like that then we can say hello to 4 more years of Trump. I'd gladly support Elizabeth Warren, Bernie Sanders, or even Andrew Yang over Kamala Harris.

[techne7319]

183. And I'll argue that...

And I’ll argue that having a candidate in Biden who can’t effectively respond to criticism, jumbles his words, lacks toughness, and seems fuzzy on his positions doesn’t bode well for Dems either. Team trump will destroy Joe. He’s lost 2 nominations previously. What’s different this time around?

[Galraedia]

198. Team Trump will destroy Kamala Harris.

[LakeArenal]

193. You are the attacker. Not I...

Now you are whining about my response... Geez..

[techne7319]

203. Round and round...

I didn’t whine about anything. Just tired of Biden supporters who can’t take the heat or are blinded by his ultra-white teeth. Joe has got to go.... yes, I have an opinion, get over it.

Really wasn’t much of a response that you offered, if you look at it. I asked what I thought was a legitimate question and you replied with blurb about whining. But whatever.

[LakeArenal]

261. YOU brought up whining. And still you whine.

You are the one wound up not me.

[emmaverybo]

67. It's the tactic. It's the low blow. It's what this says about character. Aside from a killer

debating move, and an ability to evoke sympathy with a rehearsed scene, I have heard no compelling message from Harris. Maybe her theatrical triumph has obliterated whatever I look
for: authenticity, fairness, integrity. These are to me are just baseline qualities.

Thomas was well able to play the race card at Hill’s hearing, making her and the truth expendable to his blind ambition, making her color beside the point, but worse exploiting, for selfish ambition, something so painful in African American history, misappropriated to his own moment, just to serve conservative, and ironically, racist goals.

Many did not see it then, and fell for his pained outcry.

I saw it and I hated it then and the careful stepping over dance Dems did to avoid their own political minefield.

Exploiting earned suffering is one if the worst of slimey and unethical behaviors.

That is what I decry.

[techne7319]

80. Your right to your opinion

I respectfully disagree with your position. In my opinion she was sharing a part of her story that sets her apart from Biden and demonstrates why, from a person perspective, she doesn’t think he’s the best candidate. I saw it not as a low blow but a clever tactic. The verdict is not out yet as to whether it will help or hinder her or Biden’s campaigns in the long run.

[defacto7]

145. I wholeheartedly agree with your statement.

To me that kind of tactic by any candidate is embarrassing. It's cheap. It talks down to all of us. I lost some respect for Harris last night but the same tactic is used by several candidates and I hope I'm not compelled by necessity to vote for them.

[emmaverybo]

176. I also respect Buttigieg for his honest answers about Southbend, his having done a tough thing

in firing a popular police chief, and his sincere attempt to serve his constituents. Fielding anger and hurt during crisis is not easy. He is soldiering on. Big big responsibility and he shows he is up to it.

[Skittles]

78. white male privilege, in part

[techne7319]

86. Perhaps

It’s starting to seem like the Biden worshippers had a pre-planned agenda to “personally attack” anyone who attacks Joe. If true, that’s shameful

[Skittles]

187. oh I have noticed

we are constantly told he is the ONLY one who can beat Trump, and we cannot criticize him lest we be HELPING REPUKES. It's fucking nonsense.

[techne7319]

197. Thank you

The solidarity is much appreciated.

[emulatorloo]

332. Lighten up, Francis. Not everything is a conspiracy.

As an aside, “Biden Worshippers”? You sure wanna go there?

[emulatorloo]

351. Making up nasty names for a candidate's supporters is frowned on around here n/t

[ucrdem]

19. She benefited from a voluntary busing program that she accused Biden of opposing.

He didn't and he said so. From my POV he won the point. Basically what Kamala won sympathy for was her claim that he hurt her. He didn't hurt her. How is he supposed to answer that without looking like an insensitive boor? She didn't seem to me to be playing fair.

[tishaLA]

26. Actually, I think her point was that more students could have benefited

from busing in the same way she did had people of good and ill will not worked together to destroy busing. The hurt is for all the other girls and boys who didn't have the opportunities she had.

[ucrdem]

32. She said "that was hurtful to me" in an emotional tone.

She falsely accused him of hurting her. That's what it boils down to.

[tishaLA]

41. Yes, that's called empathy.

When you can hurt for others.

[ucrdem]

51. It was a false accusation on top of a false accusation.

Yes the press is lapping it up but they're a bunch of hyenas. There's no way in h#ll Harris has a prayer in the GE. Look at all the women who didn't vote for Hillary. And then there's the other half of the electorate who do not appreciate being falsely accused.

[tishaLA]

53. Honestly, I don't expect his supporters to like it

but she didn't make a false accusation at all and she connected political policy to personal experience in ways our best politicians do: Clinton could do it; Obama could do it; Sen Warren does it.

But you've now changed your reason for disliking it a third time after I responded to the other two reasons, so I don't believe anything will be satisfactory.

[ucrdem]

59. I hadn't analyzed it completely until now but it was thoroughly disgraceful.

Thanks for the conversation. Yes, I would expect Biden's supporters to object to it. They should.

[tonedevil]

393. The optics frequently differ...

depending on your relationship to the ox being gored. I too expect Biden supporters to object I just don't give it a lot of credence.

[Skya Rhen]

56. Never - I know a few neighbors of mine who are convinced that she can win the general. I do not

believe that they are delusional but.....

[ucrdem]

70. Biden was the perfect target because he IS empathetic, and older, and male.

So she took advantage of that and threw the kitchen sink at him. It really wasn't worthy of her.

[FreeState]

84. Im Kind of the flip side of DU on this

I saw his answer to her person story self centered and completely void of empathy. He didn’t address her pain or story, just denied what she was saying. I expected more.

[ucrdem]

87. Okay but where was the pain? She went to a good school in Berkeley.

Berkeley is a nice place. It's not far from Oakland so I imagine the busride was very short. Where does the pain fit in?

[FreeState]

89. In her voice when she spoke n/t

[ucrdem]

91. Yes, but that's what we're objecting to.

Biden didn't hurt her so it was wrong to insinuate that he did.

[FreeState]

98. I disagree

Her story and emotion was front and center to me, sorry you couldn’t feel it.

[ucrdem]

104. I felt it. It was effective. But it was wrong to accuse Biden of hurting her. nt

[Skya Rhen]

167. She even tried to link Joe to the fact that a little white girl was told by her mother not to

play with Kamala. It was pathetic.

[ucrdem]

223. She lived in northwest Berkeley it turns out

according to an East Bay Times article posted earlier:

A member of the second class to go into the program, Harris took the bus every day from her mother’s yellow duplex on Bancroft Way in the more diverse, less affluent flats of northwest Berkeley up to Thousand Oaks elementary in the wealthier and whiter hills.

Her parents were graduate students at Cal and the section of Bancroft she lived on is situated between the campus and the bay. It's not in Oakland and is an older neighborhood of students and multicultural families. The Berkeley busing program was considered innovative and progressive per the article so I imagine the city took pride in it. Altogether it sounds like a positive experience. I'm glad she talked about it as I wasn't familiar with her biography though I wish she hadn't used it as a weapon against Biden.

California Sen. Kamala Harris, left, with her younger sister Maya and mother Shyamala Gopalan Harris. Her parents — immigrants from India and Jamaica — shaped the senator’s life, and their story has become a key part of her campaign message.

https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2019/06/28/kamala-harris-busing-integration-berkeley-joe-biden-debate/

[Cha]

234. omg.

[58Sunliner]

196. She is a lawyer.

[redstateblues]

180. Her pain? Gimme a break. She is a highly successful attorney with a tough personality

who kicks asses for a living. Like I told my ex who is an attorney. There’s no crying in law or politics

[FreeState]

184. That's not a world I would want to live in

Many of our past leaders have showed emption and empathy. It’s part of being human. One can be successful and still in pain.

[redstateblues]

189. Joe shows empathy. Kamala not so much

[angrychair]

163. Are you serious?

Biden was the perfect target because he IS empathetic, and older, and male.

Are you actually saying a multicultural women of color was using all her advantages in society against a white, male multimillionaire career politician?


Ok.....

[Thekaspervote]

85. Sadly I agree. Hillary has said more than once that Americans are not ready for a woman president

[angrychair]

166. Sooooo

Arecyou saying our previous Democratic Party nominee, that got 3 million more votes than trump, said that America didn't want a female president?!?

[Demsrule86]

273. It was faked and the 'I was that girl'...implying Biden hurt her...really disgusting.

[Demsrule86]

325. I don't buy that for one small second.

[tishaLA]

330. You've replied to this one post of mine twice

And I'm not sure why. In the first reply you called it "fake." I understand that you consider one of our prominent members of the senate a liar, which is a shame. I'd never think that about another Democrat unless I had good proof of it.

[Demsrule86]

337. Sorry...missed that.

[tishaLA]

339. If it were me, I'd be more sorry

for suggesting, evidence-free, that a prominent member of the party is a liar. But I believe in unity rather than division.

[Demsrule86]

342. I didn't call her liar...now did I? But you know Sen. Harris did imply in her pre-planned attack

on Biden that he was a racist...I would consider a Vice President an important member of this party and there is no evidence to suggest Biden is a racist. However, point taken sorry enough not to bother you again with my offensive posts.

[tishaLA]

348. to fake something is, in fact, to lie

about it. I don't say things like that about Democrats unless I have proof because I care about party unity.

[treestar]

100. You can't be hurt that easily

And win a Senate seat. So it is not credible.

I had thought she was so cool. That was disappointing.

I still don’t see why he can’t talk about his actual experience. Are we to be like deplorables and have an alternate reality?

Someone who is not a racist and worked for civil rights can hurt her feelings? Then she can’t handle the Orange Bully. He is going to say some truly hurtful things.

[womanofthehills]

144. Your reasoning is sounding like whats going on with abortion and the states

Hey, it's not affecting me in my state, so I don't care what's happening in your state.

[tishaLA]

22. This reminds me of the 2016 debate with Sec Clinton

"I think — I think — I think Donald just criticized me for preparing for this debate. And, yes, I did. And you know what else I prepared for? I prepared to be president"

[highplainsdem]

39. I have nothing against preparing for debates. As I said in the OP, I was on debate teams for years.

But debaters are aware that what they're doing is THEATER -- and there were times we'd switch sides, which sometimes really shocked people in the audience who couldn't understand being able to passionately argue both sides of an issue.

What I WANT to see in an important political debate -- what I believe most people want to see in a political debate -- is something more genuine than debate-as-theater.

I want to see non-planned, non-rehearsed moments that truly reveal who a candidate is.

And I felt more than a little let down when I realized that what I'd thought was such a moment from Harris was instead something planned well in advance, probably rehearsed in advance, complete with quick tweeting of that photo...and now, for chrissake, a t-shirt.

Some people are really impressed by theater, by acting.

I had two actress roommates many years ago. Knew a lot of theater people then. I like theater as an art, just as I like debate as an art.

I want something more real from candidates I might vote for.

[tishaLA]

47. I go back to what I said: politicians prepare attack lines

they study records. They prepare to defend themselves and, if they are lucky, to turn an attack against them--one that would also be pre-planned, mind you--into a good offense against the person with the attack line.

[Corgigal]

257. You understand debate.

This is exactly what they do. My son is a debate coach for a local college. I can give him a topic and he can argue both sides and if I didn't know him, I wouldn't be able to determine what his actual feelings were on the issue.

You wanted honesty. I get it, but these people are running for president. They have to handle it all. It's a dirty game, and we aren't even aware how much they backstab each other.

[highplainsdem]

258. I want more than just debate skill, which is partly acting skill and partly logic and rhetoric, from

a nominee I'm going to vote for. I want sincerity, as much as possible.

I also think that undermining an emotional message with a pre-planned campaign tweet and a t-shirt shows a certain clumsiness in messaging.

[Corgigal]

259. It's part of the show.

Got to make some points. However, I get you. This is for president of our land, I want some facts.
You're correct, I want that too. However, I listen to what all the candidates offer, knowing they might deliver on 5 percent once they get in the Oval Office.

Give it a week, it will fade. Free media cycles are too real a thing. That factor allowed Russia to steal an election with plausible deniability.

[RockRaven]

25. I think after 8 years of GWB, then 8 of Obama, then 4 of Trump, it's be nice for

the pendulum to swing back to having a POTUS who does some goddamned preparation. I do not find doing homework/planning/preparing to be unlikable.

[Demsrule86]

327. Not when it is cooked up nonsense... prepared would have been to argue issues...50 year old

busing crap that no one supported...no moderator would have asked about it...oh it was a trick alright and I find it unbecoming in a presidential candidate.

[mopinko]

28. and lord knows being cold and calculating is just for boys.

[Hekate]

217. Got it in one, mopinko

[napi21]

31. You have to understand why all those candidates are there. Each one wants to WIN!

From what I could tell last night & today, Joe was able to take the time to explain his vote so many years ago and why Kamela misunderstood his position. Having such a long political career invites attacks like this and I'm sure it's not the last one we'll see. It's very early in this campaign and anything can happen, but so far Joe has been able to explain away the accusations. We'll see what comes next.

[mountain grammy]

44. Sometimes the best thing to do is apologize

But he still doesn't think his bussing vote was wrong.. He didn't think it should be federally mandated. He was wrong. History should have us admit our mistakes of the past, and Joe doesn't want to do that.

[localroger]

92. That's partly because his current schtick is "working across the aisle."

Harris was right to throw this in his face because it's exactly what he has been promising to do more of. And you can argue that it's not a bad thing, but if it's your plan you should own up to it and be ready to defend it. Biden did a really poor job of that.

[StarfishSaver]

164. They all want to win.

But women aren't supposed to act like they want to win.

[BeyondGeography]

34. Biden should have seen that coming from two weeks away

ie when he teed that opportunity up for her all by himself.

[floppyboo]

109. yup. Not ready not electable

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

429. Joe just needs to get his "sea legs" under him. Im sure he'll be better prepared for the next debate

Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!!

[DURHAM D]

121. His staff knew it was coming but

he won't listen to them or prep for press encounters or debates.

[BeyondGeography]

129. He also didn't listen to them when they told him not to use his relationship with Eastland

as an example of how he got things done with disagreeable people in Washington.

This was a festival of ineptitude on his part.

[Raven123]

35. I found that unsettling as well

I wasn’t unsettled by the confrontation as I think Joe invited it with his comment about Eastland. Frankly, if Harris didn’t address it, I suspect some right winger would have brought it up later. The immediate posting of the photo was just too weird. Harris had a great roll out but has been stagnant in the polls. If her campaign was concerned, this could appear less authentic and more contrived. Watching the post debate shows today, I have seen some discussion of how this may move her numbers.

The other problem that may emerge is that this was a pretty unusual confluence of their lives. This moment will be difficult to replicate and may overshadow her campaign. Haven’t heard much commentary on anything else she said.

I have no doubt that she could take on Trump, so point made!

[jcgoldie]

38. Oh man

Not another unsympathetic and unlikeable woman... whatever shall we do?!?

[Kaleva]

46. That photo has been on the internet for months now and is in her book

"11 photos that show Kamala Harris' childhood in Oakland and life before politics

By MICHAEL SCHAUB
JAN 09, 2019 | 10:30 AM

"The Truths We Hold," in which Harris discusses her childhood, career and her vision for the future of America, was published Tuesday by the Penguin Press. Below are 10 photos from the book, which follow Harris’ upbringing in Oakland and her path toward politics."

https://www.latimes.com/resizer/RmoJTTIelKuDF0oNtJC54aekw0k=/800x0/www.trbimg.com/img-5c363a74/turbine/la-1547057775-ijqgxpn8gb-snap-image

https://www.latimes.com/books/la-et-jc-kamala-harris-young-photos-20180109-story.html

[pnwmom]

63. Yes, it has. Thanks for posting. n/t

[Thomas Hurt]

55. or the author of that article is just trying to be divisive.

[Blue_true]

62. Exactly why shouldn't she be prepared?

It wan't like Biden talked about his past opposition to what he himself called "forced busing" that morning. Harris had criticized him on the subject last week and he did not respond to her with anything but minimization of her concern, so she came to the debate to address the issue with him face to face.

[IronLionZion]

65. coldly calculated or she was well planned and prepared

She certainly looked like she prepared more and felt more confident than most of the others. And everyone's goal would be to punch up to take down the frontrunner. So she's probably off the potential VP list, and she's clearly running for the top job only.

Do you also take issue with Swallwell's sucker punch at Biden's age?

[Skya Rhen]

77. Swalwell was calculating but not cold. Had he suggested that Biden was a racist then he would

have been promoted to the cold category...

And I agree - she took herself off the VP list.

[ADX]

68. Like it or not, politics is a dirty business...

... and all is fair in love and war. This isn't Joe's first rodeo; he should have seen something like this coming from a mile away and been better prepared to counter it but I trust that he'll do exactly that next time.

We as a party need to do everything we can to win in 2020 so even though I'm a staunch Biden supporter, I have no problem whatsoever with Kamala's tactics...

[UncleTomsEvilBrother]

69. Oh, you mean her...

...strategy.

Look...I would vote for Joe in a New York minute, but if the Biden camp keeps harping on this, it makes you seem more hurt than it should be.

Also, you all are kinda tearing her down like people people did Hillary (Using "cold" in your thread title, then using words like "calculation" in your discussion. Using words like that, where acceptable for men, always make women seem evil.)

I don't think it's going to work on Kamala the way it worked on Hillary, though. You can tell from Harris' tone that she is connected and associated with toughness. Again, the Biden camp needs to move on from this and let America forget about it.

[emmaverybo]

81. Harris and Booker are still making hay as are many posters. And MSM is running a decent man into

the ground based on rivals’ political ambitions. You can bet this will not be dropped as long as it is
useful.

[Thekaspervote]

96. I don't see it as Biden and supporters harping, but the other way round. He is the outstanding

Front runner. That’s the real issue

[yardwork]

286. Thanks for pointing out the sexism.

Kamala Harris doesn't give a damn if people's feelings get hurt because she's a tough woman. I like that about her.

[Skittles]

75. or

maybe that's exactly the kind of person who needs to go up against Trump

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

76. HE SAID IT.. own it or get off the stage. N/T NO Gotchas.

[FoxNewsSucks]

82. I disagree.

I'm OK with it. Not because Biden should be prepared to defend his past, and his record, or admit that at times in the past he's been wrong just like all of us.

But the fact is, "sympathetic and likeable" will NOT defeat MF45. Coldly calculating, tough as nails will. Points to Harris.

[emmaverybo]

90. I didn't see her defeating Trump. Biden is chivalrous in an old school way. He is also empathetic

and decent. That was in large part what made this gambit pay off for her. Trump is a cunning brute. World of difference.

[FoxNewsSucks]

108. That's true,

and Biden's decency is why I actually like him in spite of some things in his past. He's the kind of person I do like to associate with. He's just not my choice to be the Democratic candidate.

And to be blunt, decency hasn't gotten Democrats very far lately. Republicon scum doesn't play fair or respond to decency. To defeat MF45, the Koch empire, and evil shits like Mitch McChinless, Democrats need to play cold calculating hardball.

[emmaverybo]

201. They should play cold, hard, even dirty with Republicans, Damaging any candidate's reputation

especially through manipulative means that misrepresent that person in substance is not good.
Whoever is chosen, and into the future all of them, may benefit from whole-hearted endorsements and campaigning, not from political ex-rivals whose credibility has been shredded,
but from former competitors whom voters of diverse demographics still trust.

[Demsrule86]

274. She won't beat Trump...so we have to hope that Biden can win...I think he can.

[Thekaspervote]

107. Cold and calculating is not what voters are after. Yes, removing the dotard is top priority

But do with facts, plans, experience- foreign and US...policy that will,work. No fist pounding... please. We’ve had enough of that

[FoxNewsSucks]

116. Call it what you will,

but anything less than absolute tough-as-nails will not prevail against the republicon machine. I do think Harris was prepared, and had facts. Biden's response to her was not good. He may be a great human being, but that's not what we need to take on tRump and everything backing him. Putin, MBS, Koch Bros etc will take advantage of "decency".

I'm all for bringing back decency, but it can't happen until we eradicate MF45, Moscow Mitch, and every greedy corporate republicon scumbag in office or sitting in the judiciary.

[emmaverybo]

205. More than anything, this election depends on votes, on an electoral college pathway, on those votes.

Hard as nails debating skill is but one factor. Trump is not exactly a pro. Debating mastery and skill
is often in the eye of the beholder. A range of styles can be effective. This will boil down to which
candidate can win which states and by a wide margin to offset the cheating.

Eradicating scumbags is not primarily about debating chops. I have seen a total mess come up against a superior and tough debater who makes the mess look chaotic and moronic, even senile and guess who won?

[emmaverybo]

225. Well, I agree with your post more than mine. No reason debates can't be civil. NT

[hay rick]

93. Prior to the debate, Biden was polling 50% of the black vote in South Carolina.

Of course she had to go after him. She needs some of that support to have a chance.

[Hoyt]

94. If Biden hadn't opened the door last week by mentioning segregationists, this wouldn't have happened

At that time, I posted that Biden was just saying we can work with the other side to get things done (don’t consider Dixiecrats as today’s Democrats).

Now, thanks to Harris and Booker, it’s clear there was more to it.

[Demsrule86]

324. Yes it would have...the t-shirts and all the other crap show this was planned for a while...

I am disgusted and have crossed her off my primary list...will vote for her in a general of course and help etc. etc. etc.

[Wounded Bear]

97. Yeah, it would have been a lot better if she hadn't prepared and let your guy win, eh?

[AlexSFCA]

105. she is a former prosecutor and a skillful one at that

the fact she timed it so well and effective made me appreciate so her much more. She can effectively prosecute trump in a debate. Spontaneous is not what I want in a president. What she did was courage and brilliance. This is exactly what primaries and debates are for. Again, the main issue was not her question but Biden’s response. She offered him a great opportunity to set the record straight and instead he ruined it. She said post debate in an interview that she was surprised at his response. Make no mistake if Biden pulled a trick like that, he’d be applauded for his masterful debate skills, preparation and timing.

[emmaverybo]

123. I wouldn't applaud. I like him because he has shown political skill without sacrificing integrity.

Same reason I liked Obama.

Harris brought a nice haul of funds to Biden campaign today. And she has been exposed for this moment so regardless of what happens to Joe, she will be watched for duplicity by other candidates and at least some of the public.

[AlexSFCA]

126. all I am saying that this was a smart move for her

as she is dead serious on winning the nomination, integrity or not. She intrigued the media and now they will be covering her more and more searching for that ‘duplicity’. When it comes to trump, I’d take strategy over integrity any day. You won’t win over trump on integrity and spontaneousness but with strategy and cold hearted surgical thinking. The prosecutor in her is a very good fit for this moment in time and history. I’ve been watching her for years ever since she was DA in SF, she is great at appearing emotional but she is tough as nails and constantly calculating and planning - we call it fierce. It’s a good thing and necessary thing to win over neofascist ideology exploding in out country.

[Mme. Defarge]

147. Exactement!

[Tarc]

122. Here comes the spin machine, desperately trying to do damage control

Harris really put Biden on he ropes, his crowd is panicking.

[Thekaspervote]

131. Meh

[emmaverybo]

136. You are gloating prematurely. She tarnished herself a bit and tipped her hand too early in the game.

She will need to retire this tactic now.

[AlexSFCA]

140. or double down

by using this tactic on BS and Warren who she’ll also need to eliminate. You don’t do it by being nice. Obama was not nice to Clinton and she was not nice to him during primaries. But none of it mattered one bit the day after primary was over. You don’t win by being ‘nice’. You win by being strategic and offensive as opposed to defensive.

[Tarc]

264. Someone needs to pull up his big-boy pants

[Bettie]

125. Frankly, if she were a man

Effective debate technique plus effective courtroom technique would be considered strong, commanding.

There would be no question about being sympathetic and likable.

Since she's a woman, the expectation is that she be soft and sweet and deferential to the men on the stage.

I'm so tired of the double standard.

[Thekaspervote]

141. She saw it as an effective debate move... it doesn't seem to be playing well

And as far as her being soft and deferential to a man, she wasn’t, again she wants to win at all costs. Joe was the gentleman and did not attack back ... it’s not his MO

“Angry old white man yells at black woman.” He didn’t and that’s a good thing

[Bettie]

142. The point is that you seem very angry

that she wasn't deferential to the old white guy.

She was supposed to say "Yes Mr. Biden, Sir, whatever you say, Mr. Biden sir. You want me to drop out of the race because you want to be the nominee? Yes, sir, right away sir."

The point is that a male candidate would be seen in an entirely different way using the very same set of circumstances.

That has everything to do with how women are viewed in our society. Everything to do with white male privilege.

[Thekaspervote]

146. Not angry at all. She saw what she did as a way to go after her opponent

I am pointing out that the media would have been very unkind had Biden come back at her with any force. He listened closely to President Obama as he was faced with the same issue, but in reverse. Anger never wins the day

[shanny]

186. fyi, fivethirtyeight released a poll today

actually two polls, one before the debate and one after. Biden dropped 10 pts. (41 to 31), Harris went up 9.

So it seems to be playing well for someone.

[Pachamama]

219. I predict that will be a temporary bump and she will drop back down soon

I say that as someone who has been supporting Harris, know her personally and am disappointed by what she did and am thinking of switching my support elsewhere.

I have been talking today to other friends here in California who feel the same way and I believe she will be falling on the same sword she pulled on Biden.

[shanny]

267. She might. The first debate may turn out to be

a pyrrhic victory for her.

Not so sure the dip will be short-lived for Biden. I think his support is wide but not deep...and there are plenty of other landmines in his political history which don't require going back in time multiple decades.

[DesertRat]

214. Amen!

[DURHAM D]

127. Seems to me that her lady parts are being taken into

consideration by some Biden supporters. As in - She is a woman and she just should not prepare and must never look like she has put a man in his place. The shame. The shame.


We have been here before.

[emmaverybo]

157. She used a bid for sympathy for the "little girl" Biden had hurt, emoting righteous indignation

about a policy vote to raise doubt about his civil rights background in the mind of black voters she
hopes to gain. Putting a man in his place by manipulating her own story, about which she was less than honest, is not the way an authentically strong woman forthrightly puts a man in his place.

And where is Biden’s place? She used conventional and oppressive sexual politics.

I haven’t seen her do this before. She hasn’t needed to. Her need shines through, not genuine
preparation for debate.

I’d say she can do better to put her own credentials forward and to gain support among black voters.

What she has done to gain black voters’ faith in her is what she needs to demonstrate.

[highplainsdem]

181. +1,000,000. It was a very emotional "you hurt me" plea for sympathy, which IS effective

when it's spontaneous.

Honestly, it struck me as more effective, in the moment, because Harris is usually so cool and tough.

When it turns out it was rehearsed, it goes from seeming like a really effective emotional moment to looking like carefully rehearsed manipulation.

[bitterross]

148. Why? It bothers you that Dems Plan and Have a Strategy to Win?

There should be a lot more cold, calculating strategy by Democrats. It's the way to win.

I'm not at all bothered that Harris had a plan to take down her opponent and executed it. That's what winners do.

[BlueWI]

150. Meh.

Biden needs to find his voice when it counts, especially if he's the nominee. No more nostalgia about segregationists and digging heels in after gaffes.

His last election win was 2012. Front runner or not, there's a hill here to climb to win the nomination and the GE.

And segregation still exists and affects communities of color disproportionately. Harris dropped a little truth on that issue, and Biden should study Mayor Pete's answer on the South Bend shooting to improve on future responses.

[spin]

152. Most politicians calculate every move they make and everything they say. ...

Most hire focus groups to find the most effective tactics to employ.

That explains why they often look so fake. You rarely see the real person behind the mask.

[Skya Rhen]

159. The real Kamala was revealed last night.

[tonedevil]

406. I was impressed too. /nt

[dlk]

161. Are Male Politicians Ever Labeled as Calculating?

It seem odd only women politicians are criticized for for saying or doing something calculating. I wonder why...

[58Sunliner]

199. The repukes sure are. I often see calculating ascribed to McConnell.

[Bayard]

270. I would label Swalwell as calculating

He came across as calculating and desperate to me. I lost most respect I'd had.

[dlk]

278. Swallwell Merely Repeated Biden's Own Words

I'm not sure how that qualifies as calculating in a negative sense. It was good enough for Biden to say the same words, albeit over thirty years ago. Last night on Chris Hayes's show, Howard Dean addressed the changing of the guard in the Democratic party. Running for president is a full-contact endeavor and Biden should be aware of that by now. It would be naive on his part to think no one would ever take the gloves off.

[mtnsnake]

162. Last night Kamala Harris gave us a preview of the knockout punch she'll deliver to Donald Trump

if she faces him in the general election in 2020. OUCH!

[DallasNE]

165. Biden Isn't Very Deft In Such Matters

He could have said "I've evolved over the last 35 years and those statements haven't reflected my views for at least 25 years". A little humility can cause things to backfire on the other person but that wasn't in Joe's arsenal so here we are. Can he learn from these early mistakes? For his sake, he had better or he is toast.

[calguy]

168. Whether her attack was right or wrong, depending on how you feel,

it was up to Joe to handle the attack. I thought he did just fine. Others do not. Time will tell who really won that exchange. Whether I agree or disagree with Harris, she proved she is a street fighter. As for Biden, whatever Harris threw at him is nothing compared to what the R's are going to throw at him should he become our nominee. These debates are a training ground to prepare for the fight against trump. This is only the first of many. Let the best candidate win. I hope it's Joe. But Kamala gets it I'm confident she can kick trump's ass.

[BlueWI]

370. Agreed.

I thought that Biden's response was reasonable in most respects, with two tweaks. First, Biden should have a line for instances like this: Senator Harris, I know you are speaking your truth about this issue, but I respectfully and strongly disagree with your characterization of my record. Second, don't bring up local control.

Pretty simple.

[Pachamama]

220. As a woman, I completely disagree with your generalization

I would think the exact same thing if any of the men on stage had done what she did against Biden. I think what she did was wrong and she should have been focusing on taking down Trump, not a fellow Democrat.

I am so disappointed in her and I believe in the end it will hurt her. I was so excited about her debate performance until she pulled out that stunt in the debate. I am seriously reconsidering my support for her and I know others here in California who feel the same way....about our own Senator - and we are all women that are saying this and feeling that way.

[Pachamama]

242. 10 days on DU and in single post to me, a member for 15 years, you manage to accuse me of sexism,

....racism and go on to question and insult DU and it’s membership?

Really?

[Pachamama]

247. Now you say DU is full of Bigots?

Don’t get too comfortable here....enjoy your brief stay...

:bye:

[StarfishSaver]

246. I agree with you

Thank you for saying it. You're absolutely right.

[StarfishSaver]

170. It's called debate prep

It's all the rage among the political set. Has been for years.

[Cha]

171. If Kamala's attack was to get more POC on her side it doesn't

seem to be working so far.

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

Biden lands 2020 endorsement from Atlanta Mayor Bottoms

"The larger context was that you have to work across the aisle with people you don't like, people you don't agree with," Bottoms said. "I do it each and every day as mayor of Atlanta in a red state."

Bottoms added that Biden's work on civil rights issues and his progressive resume demonstrate his commitment and that the remarks were blown out of proportion.

"My position is, if his explanation was good enough for John Lewis, then it's good enough for me," Bottoms added, referring to the Georgia congressman and civil rights icon who was among Biden's defenders after the controversy.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/biden-nabs-2020-endorsement-atlanta-mayor-bottoms-64012750

We'll see how this pans out..

[Pepsidog]

172. Me too

[58Sunliner]

173. I like Harris, but I said last night she was relying on yanking peoples chain emotionally.

The rape survivor, the 3 am, the small child needing the emergency room, each one designed to ramp up the crisis factor. And each one prepped. She was a lawyer-part actor. I think it is legitimate to recognize the danger that exists for many people in this moment of time, given the policies. But to then turn around and sell a t-shirt on poor me was beneath her. She then said on TV this morning that she did not know about the t-shirt, which I find hard to believe, since they announced the t-shirt from her official campaign twitter feed immediately using the exact same line last night. The busing question wasn't a question. It was a play.

[Mme. Defarge]

218. Thank you.

I had that same criticism of her performance before she played the busing card.

[Thekaspervote]

380. +1000

[aeromanKC]

174. Makes me wonder what Pics she has ready for her debate with Trump!!

I've got my popcorn!!

[highplainsdem]

182. I would not bet on Trump agreeing to debate any Democrat.

[Ztolkins]

177. So..

Y'all up in arms because Harris planned an attack against Biden that had to do with race and then made T's with her face on it?

Cool..then we must be furious at Swalwell for doing the same thing only over age, right? Dude has T-shirts too.

[BlueWI]

368. Cue the crickets.

The poutrage over failing to genuflect to Biden will undoubtedly continue.

[Ztolkins]

390. Booker has been all over him on the race issue

Not a peep from our compatriots. No sexism involved though, we are too progressive for that.

[angrychair]

190. Interesting

Dear @JoeBiden,

Is this your signature?

Last night you lied to @KamalaHarris and to the American people when you said you weren't against busing to integrate schools.

You were.

Here is your letter to a white supremacist where you call it your:

"ANTI-BUSING LEGISLATION." https://t.co/CRnl0d1HTc

Check out @shaunking’s Tweet:

Link to tweet

?s=09

[Hekate]

200. Yeah, 'cause that's a first in politics...

I hope you know by now that I am a major Biden defender around here. I said I'd have his back, and I have.

BUT he should have seen that coming and should have been prepared. I winced for him. He's going to have to snap into 2019 very fast. I hope he does, because my secret dream is a Biden-Harris ticket.

[SunSeeker]

233. +1

[MrsCoffee]

250. +2

[aikoaiko]

209. It was pretty awesome and effective.

[SunSeeker]

221. What should bother you about that exchange is that Biden was not prepared for it.

That was a debate, meant to winnow out candidates, not a friendly chat.

She came prepared to do her job.

I'm guessing Biden will be better prepared for the next debate.

[ucrdem]

226. He defended his civil rights record forcefully. He corrected Harris on her key points.

In my view he won the round. How was he not prepared?

[SunSeeker]

228. He should have had a better response than defending state's rights.

And nothing Harris said needed correcting. She never said he "praised segregationists," so his denial that he did so did not correct Harris. He did in fact oppose federally-ordered school busing in the 1970s. In some communities which refused to desegregate, forced busing was necessary. Berkeley, CA finally did it voluntarily, but it took them 2 decades after Brown v. Board of Ed to do so, as Kamalapointed out. There were many communities in the South that never did. That is why the Dept. of Education had to order it in some instances. He did not explain why he opposed that. He simply said he favored local communities choosing to do busing, not the Department of Education ordering it. That is a standard states rights argument, which has an ugly history in the civil rights movement.

I am much more concerned about his argument for local (states rights) over federal mandates when in comes to civil rights protections. I am sure no one on his team would have recommended he make that argument if he had tried that out in debate prep.

Joe's a good guy. I choose to believe he sounded like he supported states rights because he just wasn't prepared for that issue. I am sure he will do more debate prep from now on.

[ucrdem]

229. Biden didn't defend states rights and it's just plain lazy to claim that he did. nt

[SunSeeker]

230. Yes he did. How is it "lazy" to point out what he said? Come on.

If you can't acknowledge what he said, how can we have a conversation?

Can you explain why he opposed federally madated school busing? I can't. He sure didn't tell us why, other than that he favored locally determined busing, which is a states rights argument.

[ucrdem]

231. He didn't say it or allude to it last night.

And he opposed federally mandated busing because it was massively hated. 95% of Americans and 91% of African Americans opposed it in 1973 when he was first elected to the Senate:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/06/28/joe-biden-kamala-harris-busing-integration-schools/?noredirect&utm_term=.95c9ad40f059

[SunSeeker]

232. He didn't say he opposed it because it was "massively hated," you did.

That may have been the reason, but he never articulated it. He only said he favored locally ordered busing. That is a classic states rights argument. It was widely viewed as such:

During a prominent exchange during Thursday night’s debate in Miami, Sen. Kamala D. Harris (Calif.) questioned the former vice president on whether he was wrong to oppose busing to integrate schools in his home state of Delaware in the 1970s.

Biden replied that his opposition was not to busing but rather to federal intervention, saying “what I opposed is busing ordered by the Department of Education.”

In separate television interviews Friday, Harris and Sen. Cory Booker (N.Y.) — the two African American candidates in the crowded Democratic field — took Biden to task for his response.

“I literally leaned back in my couch and couldn’t believe that one moment,” said Booker, who watched the second round of the debate on television after participating in the first round on Wednesday night.

“I think that anybody that knows our painful history knows that on voting rights, on civil rights, on the protections from hate crimes, African Americans and many other groups in this country have had to turn to the federal government to intervene because there were states that were violating those rights,” Booker said during an appearance on CNN.

https://beta.washingtonpost.com/politics/biden-draws-more-flak-on-busing-opposition-as-rivals-question-his-views-on-states-rights/2019/06/28/a0b3d9c8-99a7-11e9-8d0a-5edd7e2025b1_story.html?outputType=amp#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&_tf=From%20%251%24s

https://www.mediaite.com/election-2020/cnn-panel-rips-biden-for-defending-states-rights-using-i-have-a-black-best-friend-argument-by-name-dropping-obama/amp/#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&_tf=From%20%251%24s

When Biden responded that he hadn’t opposed busing but rather opposed “busing ordered by the Department of Education,” he was using nuance as a diversion—a political ploy that fuels a sense of inauthenticity. Harris, like a weary professor talking to a student, explained that federal legislation like the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965 had been necessary, just as the Equal Rights Amendment is currently necessary, because of violations that occur on the state level. Biden knows this, and he should know that much of the Democratic electorate knows it, too, which makes his decision to make a states’-rights argument all the more inscrutable.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/democratic-debate-2019-kamala-harris-exposed-the-biden-weaknesses-that-trump-will-exploit


I'm not saying this is going to kill his candidacy. It won't. But his failure to be prepared might. And if you can't acknowledge a mistake, you can't fix it. For all of our sakes, I want Joe to acknowledge his mistake and fix it. If he is our nominee, I want him to be prepared for Donald Trump

[ucrdem]

235. Cory didn't say it either. And if he does he'll be wrong.

And The New Yorker is a humor magazine that hasn't been funny in decades. States rights is a specific notion associated with slavery and Biden did NOT invoke it. The principal he's working from is this: the CRA makes desegregation mandatory but allows some latitude in how districts achieve it. Some like Berkeley voluntarily chose busing for a time. Kamala took advantage of the program and did well by it. But most districts rejected it and Berkeley scrapped their busing program in the 90s. And in 2007 the SC struck it down as a constitutional remedy. So it wasn't a perfect solution or the only one.

[SunSeeker]

295. If Biden doesn't acknowledge his mistakes, he can't fix them.

The New Yorker is a well respected magazine, bashing it is bashing the messenger. Are you suggesting the New Yorker inaccurately quoted Corey?

All of the arguments you just presented against federally forced busing are arguments Biden could have made, but didn't. Instead, he made what appeared to a lot of people as a states rights argument. Hopefully he'll be better prepared next time.

[ucrdem]

297. The point is that the press can call it states rights but Biden didn't and we shouldn't.

I know the New Yorker is respectable but they have no brief other than to entertain, so they can get away with lazy characterizations. Did Cory say states rights? If he did he got it wrong too. But I don't think he's used that term.

[SunSeeker]

300. It's not a "lazy characterization." He clearly invoked a states rights argument.

I realize Biden didn't specifically use the term states rights, but he used that argument, as evidenced in the excerpts I provided you. Saying you support locally ordered busing, but not federally ordered busing, is a states rights argument. A lot people think so, especially prominent African Americans. Are you saying they're "lazy"? If he didn't mean to use that argument, he needs to say he doesn't support states rights when it comes to issues of civil rights. His statements in front of RainbowPUSH yesterday did not do that.

[ucrdem]

301. No, he did not. And you haven't provided any quotes to show otherwise. nt

[SunSeeker]

304. Yes I did. See posts 232 above. Here, I'll give it to you again:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1287&pid=178215

This is a states rights argument:

Biden replied that his opposition was not to busing but rather to federal intervention, saying “what I opposed is busing ordered by the Department of Education.” 

https://beta.washingtonpost.com/politics/biden-draws-more-flak-on-busing-opposition-as-rivals-question-his-views-on-states-rights/2019/06/28/a0b3d9c8-99a7-11e9-8d0a-5edd7e2025b1_story.html?outputType=amp#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s

The WaPo is not "lazy." Neither is Nia-Malika Henderson and Van Jones, who both saw it as a states rights argument.
https://www.mediaite.com/election-2020/cnn-panel-rips-biden-for-defending-states-rights-using-i-have-a-black-best-friend-argument-by-name-dropping-obama/amp/#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s

You really should avoid the "lazy" characterization when referring to African American commentators.

[ucrdem]

306. Those are press accounts, not Biden statements. nt

[SunSeeker]

307. Biden QUOTE: "...what I opposed is busing ordered by the Department of Education."

Biden replied that his opposition was not to busing but rather to federal intervention, saying “what I opposed is busing ordered by the Department of Education.” 

Come on. It's on video.

[ucrdem]

308. No mentions of states rights. As I think I've pointed out once or twice.

[SunSeeker]

334. Biden used the argument, not the term.

As a Biden supporter, I wouldn't be smiling.

[ucrdem]

413. The term he used is "local decision made by your city council."

That's why calling it states rights is lazy and wrong. And he didn't oppose mandatory desegregation. Here's a little more from Thursday:

"The fact is that in terms of busing, the busing, I never — you would have been able to go to school the same exact way because it was a local decision made by your city council. That’s fine. That’s one of the things I argued for, that we should not be — we should be breaking down these lines. "

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2019/06/27/kamala_harris_vs_joe_biden_for_opposing_federal_bussing_that_little_girl_was_me.html

[SunSeeker]

415. Opposing federal mandate in favor of "local decision" is a states rights argument.

Seeing this as a states rights argument is acknowledging reality, not "laziness." Your insistence on calling it "lazy" makes no logical sense and is troubling considering how many prominent African Americans are seeing it as a states rights argument. At best, calling them lazy is disrespectful.

Joe has done more damage to himself trying to justify his prior position with this states rights argument than the position itself did. Honestly, I don't know why you want to keep this argument alive. You are not doing Joe any favors. Moving on would seem to be much more constructive.

[ucrdem]

417. School districts are not states. nt

[SunSeeker]

418. School districts are part of the local/state govt states rights advocates wanted trumping the feds.

Like I said, you're not helping Joe.

[democratisphere]

227. Her staged "moment" completely changed my opinion of her.

I supported her before the debate, now I don't support her at all.

[Lulu KC]

236. I've become undecided

I'm starting to want her to be attorney general. We need her there more.
There's a lot to sort through with what is being directed at Biden and not just from Kamala.
Now I need to figure out how to change my avatar for the forum.

[FarPoint]

239. VP Biden must be able to handle the sudden, off the grid attacks...

He also must expect predictable, planned and even obnixious lie attacks ...needs to be sharp as a razor for tRump....This is now a new presidential campaign akill requirement....

[SidDithers]

244. You should be more bothered that Biden was unprepared...

and unable to properly respond.

Faulting one candidate for planning and being prepared, to excuse another candidate's lack of preparation, is pretty weak.

Maybe Joe should just do better next time.

Sid

[Thekaspervote]

379. If this was planned for months on her part it wouldn't have mattered what his answer was

She had the come back. It’s too reactionary on her part. If you say this I will say that and on and on. Preparation indeed... it’s still canned, not very presidential

[MrsCoffee]

248. Oh come on.

What a ridiculous conspiracy theory.

Can’t believe people eat this shit up.

Well, actually yes I can.

As someone who has spent a fair amount of time defending Biden in the last two months, I’m seriously offended by this line of attack on Kamala.

Do you realize she has a whole team of people who make this shit happen? They already have dozens if not hundreds of photos to use. There was no need to go hunting for the photo. And someone is paid to think of things like this spontaneously. The t-shirts not being ready for almost two weeks doesn’t seem very pre-planned to me.

Just stop.

[Mc Mike]

251. I like Harris and Biden. The proper thing is to attack Rump's constant racism.

Joe should do it, Kamala should do it. Attack sentencing disparities and Rump's copious racist nazi ties. Attack his sexism. They should both do that.

All our candidates are giants compared to that cockroach Rumpf.

And even an actual cockroach would be better at presidenting than him.

[underpants]

252. Nothing wrong with having a plan

Just saying

[ehrnst]

253. "coldly calculated" vs "more sympathetic and likeable"

Seems to be applied only to women in politics.

The element of calculation undercut the emotional message.

Would anyone call a man saying what Kamala said "cold and calculating" instead of 'powerful' and 'prepared" or "strategic?"

Or worry that a man doing that would be less "sympathetic" or "likeable?"

[SidDithers]

255. Nailed it...

There's a glaring double standard.

Sid

[SunSeeker]

420. Yep. It's the same mistreatment Hillary got. nt.

[highplainsdem]

266. As a woman, I find it amusing that you think my opinion here is sexist. I supported

Hillary Clinton both in the 2008 primaries and in 2016.

I have the greatest admiration for strong women who can argue well.

I was very impressed by Harris before that debate, and in the early part of the debate.

But as I've explained elsewhere here, the effectieness of an emotional argument -- and Harris was making a very emotional "you hurt me" argument against Biden -- is pretty much undercut when evidence surfaces that it was rehearsed and staged.

I found Harris convincing and sympathetic in the moment.

Her campaign tweeting that photo right away, and adding to that with a t-shirt, made her comments look insincere and manipulative.

I don't like that sort of thing in candidates I'd been seriously considering, whatever their gender.

[ehrnst]

268. Straw man, anyone?

I talked about those terms.

[Bev54]

318. I agree

It was cold and calculating. I was warming up to her before that but not now. It is one thing to have a personal moment but I am sorry that was just so prepared and calculated. It made me look into her record more and I am not liking what I am finding. She started this run within 6 months of being elected as senator, she met with Hillary's donors and I am sure they were not talking "bussing". It was then she started to take "liberal" positions. I want someone who is genuine, and I know that is difficult to find in any politician but I truly think she will take whatever position she thinks is going to get her what she wants, rather than stand on principal. Not feeling it anymore.

[Thekaspervote]

378. +1000

[Skya Rhen]

269. Please, McConnell is also cold and calculating. This Atlantic article even described him as such...

Snip...

“He is incredibly calculating and cold-blooded,” added the member. So even though McConnell, like Ryan, never expected Trump to win, “he also never said anything that in any way undercut him.”


https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/05/theres-something-about-mitch/525675/

[SunSeeker]

421. "Also"? McConnell is evil, and coldly conspired to illegally deprive Obama of a SCOTUS seat.

McConnell also secretly conspired with Congressional Republicans to block all of Obama's actions. THAT is cold and calculating.

Harris prepared for a debate and accurately debated Biden's past positions she disagreed with. That is not cold and calculating. That is called being prepared and doing your job.

To equate that with McConnell's unconstitutional secret conspiracies is beyond the pale.

Besides, she was surprised by Biden defending his opposition to bussing by invoking a states rights argument. That is what really harmed him in that debate. She did not "calculate" that. https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/harris-surprised-bidens-answer-busing-tense-exchange-democratic/story?id=64014923

[MaryMagdaline]

262. She's a prosecutor. She comes prepared

The attack did not win me over but if she picks up votes and cuts into Biden’s lead, then it was a good political stunt.

Calculated or not, I believe she’s truly pissed at Biden for anti-bussing stance and his softness with segregationists. So, it’s calculated, but matches her values as well.

If other AA voters were also pissed at joe, this is his chance to repair relations early. I think his speech after the attack was a start.

[emulatorloo]

345. Has anyone asked Senator Harris if she will campaigning on reinstating busing?

It was pretty controversial in the 70’s among even liberals and AA community. Sounded great on paper, but once implemented there were lots of unintended consequences.

[Thekaspervote]

377. Biden's support with AA voters following the debate jumped 18%

[tarheelsunc]

265. It made Warren the big winner of the night, to be honest. Eom

[madville]

277. She's a career prosecutor, of course she is cold and calculating

It's part of the job description. She fought to keep innocent and wrongly convicted people in prison in California even when it was shown that evidence was tampered with and suppressed by prosecutors in hundreds of cases, it doesn't get much worse than that.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/17/opinion/kamala-harris-criminal-justice.html

[LakeArenal]

279. I have been saying, I am way more Perry Mason than Hamilton Burger.

[yellowwoodII]

276. Somebody's Got to Say It

She said it.

It's only a matter of time until a debater brings up his Iraq War vote. Which would be a Biden turnoff for me, if I didn't already know about it.

[LakeArenal]

280. Didn't Hillary vote the same on the Iraq war?

[yellowwoodII]

283. Yes, She Did

And I didn't vote for her in the primary for just that reason. I did end up voting for her in the end because, well, you know. We didn't have much choice.

[Celerity]

316. The Iraq war vote debate thing with him happened Thursday (and will again) It just got lost in the

other stuff.

Biden blew his first chance to answer for his Iraq War vote

It was such a misleading answer. Why wasn’t he prepared?

https://www.vox.com/2019/6/27/18761265/2020-democratic-debate-biden-iraq-war

Joe Biden’s vote in support of the 2003 Iraq War has haunted him for years — and it just did so again in primetime. In 2002, then-Sen. Biden voted in favor of the invasion that led to over a decade of fighting, thousands dead, and billions spent.“I do not believe this is a rush to war,” Biden said that October announcing his vote. “I believe it is a march to peace and security.”

That decision has made the presidential frontrunner a constant target from the party’s left wing, especially its younger members. A May Politico/Morning Consult poll showed 42 percent of voters aged 18 to 29 said they were “less likely” to support Biden because of that vote. Rep. Tulsi Gabbard, the Iraq War veteran who gained notoriety during the first Democratic debate Wednesday night, said that Biden made the wrong choice.

It’s no surprise, then, that the former vice president fielded a question Thursday night about his initial Iraq War support and why voters should trust his foreign policy instincts now. Or at least, it shouldn’t have been a surprise — yet he certainly seemed taken by surprise, as his answer amounted to little more than word salad: “I was responsible for getting 150,000 combat troops out of Iraq — my son was one of them,” he said. Biden then went on to say that he wants US troops out of Afghanistan — even though his administration continued that war — and that the US should work with allies to defeat terrorists around the world.

Okay, let’s unpack this.

First, President Barack Obama gave Biden the Iraq portfolio, with an express mandate to bring all the troops home as soon as was viable. But the US left Iraq not because Biden solved all of Iraq’s ills. It was because Iraq’s then-Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki was fed up with having US troops in his country and effectively forced them out in 2011.

Second, many experts believe that the Obama administration’s withdrawal of US troops helped create a vacuum that led to the creation of ISIS, the terrorist group that took over large parts of Syria and Iraq soon after. Yes, Maliki is the main reason why US troops had to leave, but Biden had long backed the prime minister. What’s most stunning, though, is just how bad Biden’s answer was to a question he had to know would come up during the debate. Biden has a checkered foreign policy past, and his authorization vote for the Iraq War is its blackest mark. If that’s all he has to say in response, then Iraq will continue to be an Achilles’ heel of his candidacy.

snip

[Trueblue Texan]

281. You are being sarcastic, right?

Hopefully, everything in the debate was calculated...that's called preparation. Biden should have been prepared.

[yardwork]

284. I want candidates who are strategic and effective.

I like Harris. We need candidates with that kind of ruthlessness. The world is st stake.

[Politicub]

287. Me, too. And ruthless in their attacks.

Now is the time for vetting. There will be worse attacks from Trump in the general.

[yardwork]

289. Absolutely! This is not a tea party.

[Politicub]

285. It bothers me that Biden made a states rights argument

And didn’t look her in the face as she was addressing him.

The states rights should bother more people here, but I understand backing a candidate at all costs. It’s what people do.

More troubling is I’ve seen Harris called ugly, cold and calculating. This strikes me as sexism as it casts Harris as a spurned woman. Sexism is a systemic cancer in society. It’s an ingrained characteristic of the patriarchy and a huge blind spot for so many people.

There was a comment yesterday where Harris was referred to as nasty. Thankfully it was deleted by the poster.

[samnsara]

288. same here..i even told hubby that now i feel harris will step all over others to get ahead..

...it did not make her more likable to me either. I was disappointed in her.

[Politicub]

292. Step over others? DU is driving me bananas this morning.

Patriarchy dominates society and women can not be discussed without using stereotypes.

As a feminist, it’s sickening.

Every time I see the argument that a man needs to be at the top of the ticket because a woman can not win, I need to remind myself that I’m on DU and not on Yahoo.

[Blue_Adept]

290. "We need democrats to be more aggressive!!"

And yet, when they do, especially in vying for a position that will determine so much going forward for the next decade...

[TreasonousBastard]

293. It was obviously planned, and at first I was taken aback with what seemed like crocodile tears...

But, this game is serious. She didn't lie, she didn't insult him, she just laid it out.

If she takes Trump apart that way, we got us a winner.

No need to hear any bullshit about being black or a woman. We elected a black President and we actually elected a white woman three years ago. It's just about time for a black woman to kick some Trump ass.

[emmaverybo]

384. You honestly think Trump would care if he "hurt" her or that she could shame him? He'd just mug

and call her nicknames. Self-righteous indignation won’t work on that soulless lump of sub-humanity.

[TreasonousBastard]

386. That is all too true, but shaming him isn't really the point, since...

everyone knows he can't be shamed.

But, it's the voters who see the shame, and some of them will actually care.

[emmaverybo]

388. Good point. But her effectiveness to challenge Biden relied in part on discombobulating

him with a personalized approach. He had prepared to defend his vote, but her story
made a reasoned argument more difficult.

She will not be able to shake Trump with these tactics.
However, in a different context, she did shake Barr, using different tactics.

Her prosecutorial skills could help her, and as you point out, these are most effective for how the
jury reads defendant’s behavior.

[Iggo]

294. LOL @ "coldly calculated" vs "planned"

It's starting to get ugly.

[Baclava]

299. Joe walked straight into a left hook in the main event slugfest, down for the count!

No fair! says his managers, wiping off the blood from his chin lol

[dawg day]

310. I find it hard to believe that Joe Biden is so sensitive that the other candidates have to make nice

Come on. Getting a little roughed up is necessary-- that's one of the purposes of a primary election. Toughens the candidate up. After all, TRUMP is coming up in the general election. And he's going to say things that aren't true, are deeply slanderous, and deeply personal... we know that. He's going to go after the candidate's spouse and children, make up lies about them, threaten them.

Obama was a better candidate in the general because he and Ms. Clinton had so many knockdown dragout fights.... and he didn't hold a grudge.

Biden's tough. He will need to be if he gets the nomination. Every single one of the candidates has to figure out to take criticism and challenges, and deal with it effectively. I don't know what that would look like, but I know Joe can do it. He's done it before.

[Demsrule86]

333. He can't be tough...why she was a 'hurting little girl'...she played it so a gentleman like Biden's

hands were tied, but judging from twitter,here and other sites...it turned of many people.

[Rene]

315. Me too. And I was bussed around town to get to school.

No big deal.

[shanny]

344. Enough with the "coldly calculated" BS.

A. Every candidate does stuff like this ( assuming they prepare at all) and B. If it were a man the descriptors would be very different.

[emulatorloo]

352. Yes, a man would be called "machiavellian"

[Bucky]

350. Doesn't bother me one bit. I'm bothered more by Biden not being ready

His record had been in the chatter for months now. How did he and his staff not come up with a strong retort by now? This is the big leagues.

Frankly, the idea that Harris should not have been prepared or thought thru her strategy is absurd. It's called a campaign for a reason

[colsohlibgal]

355. It Was What It Was

The Biden fans are in damage control mode we shall see how well it works. Whether she calculated it or not she still lived through it.

Doesn’t it make sense to prep for this debate? And I believe most of us got the emotional message.

We’ll soon see updated polling results I imagine Joe will take a hit.

[Irishxs]

359. Shows me she could deal with kim jung un very well.

[LongtimeAZDem]

367. Nah, he'd just say something hurtful

[emmaverybo]

383. By saying he hurt her? Trying to make him say sorry to "that little girl?" And how much does

Harris know about foreign policy or the whole geo-political situation visa vise NK SK etc. The president can’t just waltz in and pull some bit of indignation theater on KJU.

[Recursion]

374. Let me get this straight: a career prosecutor prepares a "gotcha"

that Biden should have seen coming for a mile, and you're taken aback?

There's a reason Trump would walk all over Biden, and we're seeing it in this thread.

[Thekaspervote]

400. To compare how biden did against harris and how he will do against dotard is not a good comparison

Biden was being fair and a gentleman to another dem. He did great against Ryan in the vp debates and he will not leave the dotard standing at the end of the night.

Of course, many have said the dotard won’t debate with anyone, and IMHO think that is correct

[TeamPooka]

375. Too bad Biden wasn't coldly calculating all the attacks that would be coming his way. He was

caught completely un-calculated.

[Thekaspervote]

376. He was caught being a gentleman that agreed not to attack other dems

[BlueJac]

385. This is politics not patty-cake...

if Joe get the nomination it will get much worse.

[emmaverybo]

391. Her story was misleading. She made herself the poster-girl for Federally mandated busing, but

is not in truth.

Harris was bused under local authority. Her school board voted to integrate the schools through a program Biden did not oppose. In fact, he believed local control over school integration was a better system to effect it.

Regardless, she misrepresented herself. And that was calculated to win over the older black electorate.

[SunSeeker]

419. She did not "misrepresent herself." Nothing she said was a lie.

In fact, it was Biden who misrepresented what she said. He accused her of a "misrepresentation of my position across the board." He basically accused her of lying. But Kamala never said he "praised racists," she said she found his comments about the reputation of segregationists "hurtful" to her personally. And he did indeed oppose bussing, so she did not lie about that either.

Here is what she actually said:

HARRIS: Okay. So, on the issue of race, I couldn’t agree more that this is an issue that is still not being talked about truthfully and honestly. I–there is not a black man I know, be he a relative, a friend or a coworker who has not been the subject of some form of profiling or discrimination. Growing up, my sister and I had to deal with the neighbor who told us her parents couldn’t play with us because she–because we were black. And I will say also that–that in this campaign, we’ve also heard–and I’m going to now direct this to Vice President Biden. I do not believe you are a racist and I agree with you when you commit yourself to the importance of finding common ground.

BIDEN: Mm-hmm.

HARRIS: But, I also believe–and it’s personal. And I–I was actually very–it was hurtful to hear you talk about the reputations of two United States senators who built their reputations and career on segregation of race in this country. And it was not only that, but you also worked with them to oppose busing. And you know, there was a little girl in California who was part of the second class to integrate her public schools and she was bussed to school every day and that little girl was me. So, I will tell you that on this subject, it cannot be an intellectual debate among democrats. We have to take it seriously. We have to act swiftly. As attorney general of California, I was very proud to put in place a–a requirement that all my special agents would wear body cameras and keep those cameras on.

MADDOW: Senator Harris, thank you.

Vice President Biden, you have been invoked.

We are going to give you a chance to respond.

BIDEN: That’s a mischaracterization of my position across the board. I did not praise racists. That is not true, number one. Number two, if we want to have this campaign litigated on who supports civil rights and whether I did or not, I’m happy to do that. I was a public defender. I didn’t become a prosecutor. I came out and I left a good law firm to become a public defender when in fact — when in fact — when in fact my city was in flames because of the–the assassination of Dr. King, number one. Now, number two, as the U.S.–as–excuse me–as the vice president of the United States, I worked with a man who in fact, we worked very hard to see to it we dealt with these issues in a major, major way. The fact is that in terms of busing, the busing, I never–you would’ve been able to go to school the same exact way because it was a local decision made by your city council. That’s fine. That’s one of the things I argued for that we should not be–we should be breaking down these lines.But–so, the bottom line here is, look, everything I have done in my career–I ran because of civil rights. I continue to think we have to make fundamental changes in civil rights. And those civil rights, by the way, include not just African Americans, but the LGBT community. They don’t–

HARRIS: –But, Vice President Biden do you agree today–do you agree today that you were wrong to oppose bussing in America then?

BIDEN: No.

HARRIS: Do you agree?

BIDEN: I did not oppose bussing in America. What I opposed is bussing ordered by the Department of Education. That’s what I opposed. I did not oppose–

HARRIS: –Well, there was a failure of–of states to–to integrate–

BIDEN: –No, but–

HARRIS: –Public schools in America. I was part of the second class to integrate, Berkley, California Public Schools almost two decades after Brown v. Board of Education.

BIDEN: Because your city council made that decision. It was a local decision.

HARRIS: So, that’s where the federal government must step in.

BIDEN: The–the federal government must–

HARRIS: –That’s why we have the Voting Rights Act and the Civil Rights Act. That’s why we need to pass the Equality Act. That’s why we need to pass the ERA because there are–

BIDEN: –That–

HARRIS: –Moments in-

HARRIS: –history where states fail to preserve the civil rights of all people.

https://time.com/5616518/2020-democratic-debate-night-2-transcript/


Do you think her school district would have ever "voluntarily" decided to integrate with bussing if they didn't have the federal mandate looming? Don't you see she very much did benefit from the federal mandate?

I can't believe I'm having to make this argument on a progressive board.

[emmaverybo]

422. Yes. Berkley Ca. for the past 150 years has been a liberal bastion. In fact, it has a

reputation from the early sixties as being radical. It was the home of the free speech movement.
It has always been diverse on every front.

Biden supports ERA. He brought that up before the debate. He has supported civil rights over decades. He has had more involvement in civil rights than most of the candidates put together.

[SunSeeker]

423. Oh come on. The Bay Area has a long history of segregation.

https://haasinstitute.berkeley.edu/racial-segregation-san-francisco-bay-area

Having lived in the deep South and in "liberal bastions" in CA, I found them both to be racially segregated.

Berkeley, CA is 84.6% white. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkeley,_California It was never "diverse on every front." Sure UC Berkeley had a free speech movement in the 1960s, but that does not mean there was no racial discrimination before, during and after that.

Both the Los Angeles area and ths Bay Area had deed restrictions banning non-white ownership. As recently reported:

Most people buying a house in the Bay Area have steeled themselves against the inevitable sticker shock. But for some, a second, uglier surprise lurks in the paperwork that accompanies their new purchase: a rule that says you must be white to live there.

In the 1930s and 1940s, it was common practice for developers across the country to bar certain races from moving into their newly built homes — a discriminatory practice that also made its mark in the Bay Area.

While those rules can no longer be enforced, they can’t be entirely erased either, so they remain on the books in neighborhoods from the Oakland Hills to Redwood City and beyond. They’re a rare but jarring reminder of the progressive region’s painful history of discrimination.

https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/02/26/for-whites-only-shocking-language-found-in-property-docs-throughout-bay-area/

Please Google "racial restrictive covenants California."

Oh, and remember BBQ Becky, the woman who called the cops on African Americans for barbequing while black? Yeah, that was in the "liberal bastion" of Oakland, CA, where Kamala was born.

[emmaverybo]

425. The free speech movement was about civil rights, not just saying the F word. Harris's school board

voted unanimously to integrate schools through busing. Berkley is home to UC Berkley, which is culturally and racially and artistically and intellectually diverse.

No, students don’t own houses, however, so will not be listed as population. In any case, I made no claim about housing. Still , increasingly neighborhoods became more mixed.
.
The article you cite refers to rules enforced in the ‘30’s and 40’s. Harris was born in 1964.

“On the books” should get off the books. Some home owners are getting the offensive language in the house document they sign changed if they buy a house from that era. I don’t see how an illegal rule, not enforced, affected Harris. I guess you are pointing out the legacy of that past.

Did you ever visit or live in Berkley in the seventies? Certainly this area would have voluntarily integrated schools. Fact is, it did.

I am sure when her parents, both PHD’s, chose to live there and to work at the university, they were aware that Berkley was far from the segregationist south.

[SunSeeker]

428. As Harris pointed out, Berkeley did not integrate until 2 decades after Brown v. Bd. Of Ed.

Those racial covenants of the 30s and 40s established the composition of the neighborhoods of the 50s and 60s, when Kamala was born. Kamala was born and lived in Oakland. She had to get bussed into Berkeley to integrate Berkeley because there weren't enough African Americans in Berkeley to integrate it. There still aren't.

Bussing fell out of favor, but segregation, whether intentional or not, persisted. In fact, school segregation is getting worse, 65 years after Brown v. Bd. Of Ed:

[A] new report finds that decades after that historic ruling, the phasing out of older programs to foster integration and a lack of new policies to take their place has left America’s schools increasingly segregated, especially for black and Latino students.

The report, released Friday by UCLA and Penn State, looked at federal student enrollment data and other research on school segregation. It found that students across America are increasingly attending racially isolated schools, with black and Latino students in particular attending schools that are predominantly nonwhite.

Since 1988, the share of intensely segregated minority schools—schools that enroll 90-100% non-white students, has more than tripled,” the report authors note.

The research suggests that efforts to desegregate schools have been undermined by a series of factors, including most notably, residential segregation.

https://www.vox.com/identities/2019/5/10/18566052/school-segregation-brown-board-education-report

Which brings us back to racial restrictive covenants. Neighborhoods which have those tend to be the tawny, expensive neighborhoods of today. So even if the covenants are no longer enforceable, the housing cost serves the same function.

And even more insidious, America funds its schools largely through local property taxes. That further entrenches the inequality of education based on neighborhood. Predominantly black/latino schools spend much less per pupil because they have less funding. People argue this is not racists because it is not intentional--it is not due to race, but rather socio-economics. However, we intentionally choose to fund schools locally. Schools in Europe are funded from a national pot, to ensure consistency of education quality. We obviously have different priorities. Indeed, many conservatives want to eliminate the Dept. of Education altogether.

[emmaverybo]

431. Gives me a lot to think about. Thanks. More fed money for schools, but people need housing help,

too, to save them from foreclosure, to subsidize and control rents. And small business investment. And this tax thing—no longer getting a credit for interest on mortgage.

But we are overwhelmed by foreign investment. This has driven the housing market up sky high.
Black community locally is dying. Soon it won’t exist. Integration? These folks would like to have neighborhoods serviced, enhanced, fixed up, crime driven out, and to stay in their houses. They can not afford to, while big ticket stores have moved in, but doing nothing for them.

Fed youth summer job programs cut. After school cut. Sports have to run on booster clubs, same
With drama, music, science programs...

I don’t think the racial socio-economic inequality is addressed at all in canceling every one’s outstanding school loan.

Just thoughts.

[wiley]

426. It was unnecessary

I'm looking for a leader to be POTUS, not an Attorney General. If she thinks she can get voters to the polls after providing some sort of catharsis, she'd best be getting to the states that voted red before she goes after a fellow Democrat. She also better crack into the social networking avalanche about to hit us all that the GOP has been working on for many years now.

This is about electoral college votes. We would already have a woman President if this was a Democracy. Harris overplayed her hand, regardless of how good it made people feel. Biden, however, should have been prepared - or at least more awake. He could have easily said I'm sorry in an empathetic manner and moved on. Even Thump knows to do that, although it's always a lie.

They all have to understand that they need to win a general election, not a Democratic primary in which maybe 20 million people voted last time.
She has already alienated some of the people we really need on our side. Either way, they both will recover and hopefully kiss on the debate stage the next time.

If not, we still have at least a dozen other candidates that people will vote for if they don't attack each other in this manner. I want to know what they are going to do to lead. Anyone of them (well...) will beat Thump if they can get everyone to the polls.

This shit they are all doing about oh he or she would make a great VP for me and not the other way around is beyond stupid.