"Look at US! Aren't we awesome?! We're so diverse. We have women, a black guy, a Hispanic guy

[StarfishSaver]

a gay guy, a black woman ..." We should get so much credit for having this much diversity.

"Ok. Now, let's talk about racial issues."

"As a black woman ..."

"How DARE you try to play the race card!!!"

[rusty quoin]

1. It's diverse within the Democratic Party.

[pnwmom]

2. The point is some Democrats even here have criticized her for having the effrontery

to interrupt the discussion by pointing out that, as the only black person in the group, her viewpoint needed to be included.

[zaj]

5. Nothing seriously wrong about that, imo.

My issue is explained in my last post.

[zaj]

4. I don't know about anyone else, but my only issue...

... is not that this is an unfair topic, but that she's playing a game of applying today's standards as if they were the standards at the time.

Bussing was an innovation. It was dramatically controversial. Biden's positions at the time were very progressive for the era and his region.

And as a senator, she knows that the tollerence you display with your peers of all ideologies is critical to the office and the entire system of democracy.

By using the approach she is, she's exploiting the political vulnerability of "if you are explaining, you are losing" against Biden.

The best response he could give is to say it was the right thing and very progressive *at the time* because (see above). But that makes him look and sound defensive and weak. (He could have done a better job in his response, here not nearly as thoughtful and clear spoken as Obama).

So then, we have this war erupt deliberately based on exploiting this era's ignorance about the political atmosphere that existed in the 70s.

That feels unfair to some, and that unfair feeling is what creates tribes at war with each other when they should be brothers and sisters at war togethter.

That's why the approach that Harris and even Booker have taken in the last week was dangerous, imo.

We should address these issues openly, but not weaponize them against each other. I think there is a way to do that, and we need to prioritize doing so.

[pnwmom]

6. No, she was asking for an indication from him that he has changed with the times,

and that he recognizes that some of his positions then would have hurt children like her -- because they would have kept her out of the schools she was able to attend. The only reason many cities like Berkeley voluntarily put their own desegregation plans into place was to avoid having the Federal govt. come and mandate a plan that would be imposed on them.

And, for the record, his position on desegregation in the 70's and 80's was NOT "very progressive for the era and his region." He worked with racists like Senators Eastland and Talmudge to end Federally ordered busing. That's the opposite of "very progressive" for Maryland at the time.

[zaj]

7. I completely disagree...

She didn't ask him to recognize how much times have changed for the better. And she didn't just try to get him to hear how important bussing was (which I thought was an excellent topic that I learned good new info about this week).

She tried to get progressive voters (specifically black South Carolina primary voters) to start wondering if Biden is perhaps, not enlightened enough).

I believe this whole thread is entirely about flipping black voters away from Biden. It's a divisive and potentially toxic technique that just might work.

[pnwmom]

8. You can read the transcript here and see.

She wanted him to acknowledge that he'd been wrong in the past -- that he had since then become more progressive on the issue. She had been the beneficiary of the busing that he opposed, and she was trying to get him to see that. And he wouldn't; instead, he misrepresented his position at the time, saying that he only opposed court-ordered busing for desegregation. That wasn't true, as you can see from the second link below.


https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/27/us/politics/kamala-harris-joe-biden-busing.html

HARRIS: But, Vice President Biden, do you agree today — do you agree today that you were wrong to oppose busing in America then? Do you agree?

BIDEN: I did not oppose busing in America. What I opposed is busing ordered by the Department of Education. That’s what I opposed. I did not oppose ——

HARRIS: Well, there was a failure of states to integrate public schools in America. I was part of the second class to integrate Berkeley, California, public schools almost two decades after Brown v. Board of Education.

BIDEN: Because your city council made that decision. It was a local decision.

HARRIS: So that’s where the federal government must step in.

BIDEN: The federal government ——

HARRIS: That’s why we have the Voting Rights Act and the Civil Rights Act. That’s why we need to pass the Equality Act. That’s why we need to pass the E.R.A., because there are moments in history where states fail to preserve the civil rights of all people.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/live-updates/general-election/fact-checking-the-first-democratic-debate/bidens-history-of-opposing-busing-for-school-integration/?utm_term=.83ea6c6480c3

As Viser reported, Biden said in a 1975 interview in a Delaware-based publication named People Paper:

“I oppose busing. It’s an asinine concept, the utility of which has never been proven to me,” he said. “I’ve gotten to the point where I think our only recourse to eliminate busing may be a constitutional amendment.”

Biden recognized that such comments could prompt some to lump him in with racists. “The unsavory part about this is when I come out against busing, as I have all along, I don’t want to be mixed up with a George Wallace,” he said, referring to the segregationist governor of Alabama.

“The real problem with busing,” he said, was that “you take people who aren’t racist, people who are good citizens, who believe in equal education and opportunity, and you stunt their children’s intellectual growth by busing them to an inferior school .?.?. and you’re going to fill them with hatred.”

He contended that being bused, while bad for white students, hurts black children, too. An African American child is sent to a white school in a wealthy neighborhood, then “back to the ghetto. How can he be encouraged to love his white brothers? He doesn’t need a look at ‘the other side,’ he needs the chance to get out of the ghetto permanently,” Biden said.

[zaj]

9. She didn't acknowledge the difference in era.

At the time, he was very progressive on race for the era and region. She's asking him to blame the old Biden now. Not to acknowledge that the entire era was different.

She *could* have said that she recognizes how different times were, and how strong his record is on race issues, but she wanted to share have how valuable bussing was. But that sort of education and thoughtfulness want her goal.

Hey goal was to harm him. It worked. But she did it by exploiting ignorance of the details of the past era.

I know Biden could have handled it better, and if he did, we wouldn't be taking about this moment. His inability to manage this topic worries me. But this divisive issue is a raw nerve that has historically sparker tribal instincts. We all need to be extra careful with our allies on these issues, imo.

Harris wasn't careful, imo.

[pnwmom]

10. But he WASN'T progressive for the time and the region. I lived in an adjoining state -- Delaware

wasn't Mississippi or Alabama.

And his position leading a campaign against court-ordered busing to desegregate schools wasn't progressive, much less "very progressive." Nor was his idea that doing so would hurt black children.

It wasn't up to Kamala to feed him good answers. It was up to his debate team to prepare him for questions like this that were bound to come up. Kamala had even told this busing story before, at other Democratic events. Instead of blaming her, his team should be better preparing him.

[zaj]

22. Agreed, but...

He wasn't progressive on busing, but he was on civil rights overall.

Busing was a lightning rod of an issue that his voters strongly opposed. So he didn't lead on this issue. But he did on many similar issues.

[delisen]

23. To work against busing was not progressive in the 1970s

I agree with you and fortunately there is much documentation available.

[Newland56]

32. And

If Abraham Lincoln gave some of the speeches today he gave during his presidency he would be regarded as one of the most vile racists in the planet and likely make David duke look like a civil rights champion.

[Spider Jerusalem]

11. "I think the issue of school integration is ultimately a states' rights issue"...

was pretty racist back then too.

[ucrdem]

12. Do you have a source or is that a paraphrase?

[Spider Jerusalem]

13. it's a paraphrase

but there really isn't any other way to interpret "the federal government shouldn't be making these decisions, it should be up to local school boards".

[ucrdem]

14. Biden didn't invoke "states rights" and it's wrong to claim that he did.

And Kamala's Berkeley busing program was voluntary, not federally mandated. So she was wrong to claim that he opposed it.

[Spider Jerusalem]

15. Not in so many words, but in practice

and he did go to old-school segregationists to get support for an anti-busing bill, so.

[zaj]

18. Because his state wanted him to oppose busing.

They were wrong, but his job was to support their wishes. At least enough to keep from losing his seat to an actually racist Republican due to this issue.

[Spider Jerusalem]

20. That isn't an absolution?

After all, guys like Richard Russell and James Eastland and Herman Talmadge were just doing what their constituents wanted, too.

[zaj]

24. I doubt that's true

Old school southern Dems were legacy segregationists.

Northern Dems were far different.

But busing was a major experiment that felt dangerous to even Democratic (white) voters who were other wise mostly progressive, but were afraid their kids would be shipped off to bad schools.

It was a lightning rod issue. Deleware voters had strung opposition to it.

Kyrsten Sinema, my freshman Senator from Arizona now is in a very similar situation now. She's extremely progressive, but can't vote her views on Sunday issues because her State demands a different vote.

Busing was perhaps a more passionate issue in the 70s than even abortion at the time. And it was an experiment.

[ucrdem]

21. Per Gallup busing was opposed by 95% of Americans and 91% of African Americans in 1973.

Only in the rare case, like Berkeley, was it was supported by the local community. And even there it was controversial. So states rights were never part of the picture and it does a disservice to history to claim that Biden used the term.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/06/28/kamala-harris-joe-biden-exchange-over-race-busing/?utm_term=.7ca14dddc8b3

[zaj]

25. Wow, that's much higher opposition than even I thought

You can't vote against 95% of the voters on almost any issue, unless you want to be replaced by a much worse replacement.

[StarfishSaver]

35. Where did you get that statistic? Your link doesn't contain a poll

FYI, one of the reasons black support for busing dropped significantly was that white busing opponents were terrorizing black children who were being bused into their neighborhoods.

[sl8]

36. I think that 95% figure is incorrect.

Last edited Sat Jun 29, 2019, 12:53 PM - Edit history (2)

If you're referring to the August 1973 Gallup poll which queried 1,513 people, the question asked which method of school integration was best and gave selections to choose from. 5% chose the busing option. You could say that 95% didn't think busing was the best solution, but that's very different than saying that 95% opposed it.

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.909.4892&rep=rep1&type=pdf

(Table 7 at link is much easier to read than my excerpt below)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Table 7. Views on School Integration—Neighborhood Schools or Busing V.
Which, if any, of these ways do you think would be best to achieve integration in
public schools in terms of different economic and racial groups?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

???????????????????????GALLUP ??GALLUP
???????????????????????Aug-73 ??Sep-75
??????????????????????? ( % ) ?? ( % )

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Create more housing for low-income people ?????22 ??18
in middle-income neighborhoods

Change school boundaries to allow
more persons from different economic
and racial groups to attend the same schools ?????27 ?31

Bus schoolchildren from one school district to another ??5 ? 3

Do something other than above to integrate the schools 22 ? 19


No opinion ?????? ??????????????17 ? 11

N ?????????? ??????????????1,513 ? 1,592

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[ucrdem]

41. Thank you, yes I meant to find a better source.

Interestingly it appears that support for busing dropped from 5% in 1973 to 3% in 1975.

[zaj]

16. No, at the time, busing was an experiment.

Opposing it was not progressive, but it was not racist either. His position was supported by racists, but his position was also supported by most of his own voters in DE. He was representing his state on this issue, while leaning forward on other civil rights issues.

Remember, this was an era where interracial dating was deeply and widely opposed was deeply unacceptable. Racism was extremely public and casual.

[Spider Jerusalem]

17. I think you mean "Delaware" (Biden is from our OTHER smallest state)

[zaj]

19. I keep going that, sorry!

[SidDithers]

42. Yup...

It’s not necessarily about Biden’s position on busing. It’s about his opinion that the decision about busing should be left up to the States.

Sid

[democratisphere]

26. It should only be about who can beat drumpf.

Nothing else matters.

[emmaverybo]

27. Julin Castro is a Mexican-American. He and many others from a diverse array of cultures and

countries speak Spanish, which you can safely without offense, say is in a Hispanic language group. Referencing Spain is not a good idea unless a person is of Spanish heritage purely and his people have not been conquered an$ brutally treated by the Spanish.

[JI7]

28. he doesn't speak Spanish

[emmaverybo]

29. Not well. He spoke it at debates. He is somewhat bilingual. As his mother was from Mexico he may

have learned some at home. My point was he probably would not want to be called a Hispanic.

[JI7]

30. he calls himself hispanic

[emmaverybo]

31. Ok. It's fine if he so self-identifies and knowing that you refer to him as Hispanic. I did not

know that and many Mexicans and Mexican Americans do not like that term. Thanks for the info.
You educated me. Sharing what we know is important.

[treestar]

34. I thought he said his grandmother was from Mexico

But maybe his mother, too? But he referenced his grandmother as the immigrant.

[treestar]

33. Doesn't it depend on the situation?

Is it always right? Being a black woman makes you always right and beyond criticism. I thought the criticism was good? If they are running for POTUS, I am told right here on DU, they have to be able to take it and deal with it.

The bussing in Calif. was a good thing, I would assume! And Biden wasn't able to stop it from happening. Again, Biden is the bad guy! It's like he sexually harassed Anita Hill himself. Now he's responsible for stopping racial integration where it did not even happen.

This will not work. Tell me why she should be President. Not why Biden shouldn't be. She screwed up here. Obama would never have said a thing like that. He knew how to campaign. How is she going to handle the real racist, Trump? He's going to say some really hurtful things.

[StarfishSaver]

38. Who decides the situation is right?

And who has a right to criticize an African American woman for her choice of when it's appropriate to speak her truth?

[treestar]

39. Why can't Biden speak his?

He experienced what he experienced with Eastland.

Busing is not an issue now. There was no reason to bring it up.

His point about Eastland was being deliberately ignored and exaggeratedly interpreted so as to be able to find it "hurtful." Even liberals can hardly see how what he said was so awful.

And now there's a new one about hoodies! Total desperation. The candidate should talk about their policies and why they are good and why they can beat the Dotard!

[jcgoldie]

37. Nailed it!

cheers

[SidDithers]

40. Fucking right...

Sid