An open invitation to Biden supporters who have long been opposed to the NRA

[True Dough]

Your candidate said during the debate and posted on his Twitter account that NRA and its members are not the enemy, it's the gun manufacturers who bankroll the NRA who are our opponent. His words.

Some of you DUers have gone silent or apparently softened on the NRA.

I did a search of some anti-NRA threads from the past 18 months (there are many) and selected some comments from longstanding DUers who are now Biden supporters. I am pasting those comments below. I'm not attaching names. I do have the URLs pasted elsewhere, so I can verify if you doubt the veracity of these remarks. And this list is far from exhaustive, it's just a sample. Anyone here can go into the archives and find such posts.

Maybe you'll recognize your own words. Please, come forward and reconcile how you could make such statements in the recent past and support a candidate who is inclined to give the NRA a pass:

The NRA is a terrorist organization

The NRA is evil

NRA needs to be reported to the FBI for this type of intimidation tactic. this proves NRA is a dangerous hate group that should have its status as a nonprofit revoked and be investigated for inciting violence. This is so alarming, and done in plain sight. The crazies are not hiding the fact they're a hate group at this point.

I pledge that I will not vote for a candidate in the Democratic Party presidential primary of 20 who continues to take gun rights money in any form from any group including but not limited to the NRA...going forward. I won't hold them accountable for the past-new slate Democrats. I also will vote for any Democrat who took money from anyone (including Satan) in the General...I would vote for a yellow dog in the general if he has a 'D' next to his name and crawl across broken glass to do so. Also, taxes must be released or a candidate should not be permitted to run in a primary...any candidate. We can't call out Trump if we are doing the same thing.

it time for NRA 501c3 status to be revoked? I dare say there is nothing legal in what they do that is considered to be for a tax-free charitable enterprise. being a corporate wing of the gun lobby and taking russian monies illegally its time to shut it down completely....

And the gunners just love their NRA. "The NRA has gun safety courses" is their justification.

National Russian Association?

Got to do something about those WORDS OF MASS DESTRUCTION (WMD)! They might actually reform powerful propaganda machines like the NRA! On with the attack!

[samnsara]

1. so...if Biden is dem nom are you going to vote for him?

..I am a gun owner. I have several of them but i am NOT for the NRA ever. Gun owners arent always fans of the NRA. Sometimes we are just like every body else.

[True Dough]

7. Sure, I'd still choose him over Trump or any other ReThug

but I certainly don't like his ease with the NRA.

And good for you for not supporting the NRA, but your candidate is accepting of a vile organization.

[highplainsdem]

2. Biden made it clear he was talking about NRA members and NOT its leadership, and he pointed

out correctly that the vast majority of NRA members (over 70%) have been shown by polling done over years to be much more accepting of some gun control than NRA's leadership is.

So stop trying to make a phony issue of this.

[LakeArenal]

3. Of course that's whom he meant and didn't mean.

Another mischaracterization.

[highplainsdem]

4. A lot of Biden critics seem to be past masters at mischaracterization.

[True Dough]

9. I thought we'd been through this

but you choose to repeat your point, so I'll do the same:

Are you so forgiving of Trump supporters?

You make an allowance for those who say they only voted for Trump because he's better for the economy? They enable all the other terrible things about him by supporting him.

So we should condone support of the shitty NRA, which fights for awful legislation, because "most NRA members" disagree with NRA leadership? They're still furthering the cause of a EVIL organization by virtue of their membership.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1287&pid=178779

[highplainsdem]

11. Since I never said I was "forgiving of Trump supporters" and neither did Biden, I don't know

why you're focusing on that straw man argument.

It seems more than a little bit silly.

And you're being repeatedly, stunningly obtuse about what Biden actually said.

[True Dough]

14. No more than you're absolutely refusing to confront

why your candidate is giving a free pass to an organization that has opposed many Democrats and has been the object of scorn among countless DUers over a lot of years.

The organization IS its members. When you sign up and pay dues to the NRA, you are SUPPORTING it! You understand that, right? You can split hairs over members not being fond of Wayne LaPierre and his repugnant conduct and words, but everyone who chooses to be a member of the NRA is enabling LaPierre.

Is that really so difficult?

[highplainsdem]

19. The NRA has millions of members, of which more than 70% apparently are willing to consider

some gun reform. If Biden can attract those votes to help win the electoral college in the GE, by making it clear he KNOWS they aren't in agreement with their leadership, then good for him.

You know, we have people in the Democratic Party who tend to view almost all openly religious Christians as opponents because of the viewpoints of the more conservative Christian leaders.

Mayor Pete is a strong reminder of how wrong that is.

He's also able to criticize things that are done wrong in the name of religion because of his own faith.

If Biden, assuming he's elected, is going to get gun reform legislation through Congress, it would help to have some support from as many NRA members as possible.

And if you can't see the wisdom and practicality of that, I can't help you.

[True Dough]

23. "more than 70% apparently are willing to consider some gun reform."

WILLING TO CONSIDER. Hmm. You figure they're willing to give an inch or a mile?

That same membership continues to elect Wayne LaPierre as the head of the NRA. How much has good ol' Wayne been willing to negotiate over the years? I'm all ears.

As for Mayor Pete, which of the candidates in the debate called out the Republicans on their hypocritical Christianity during the debates? Wasn't any of the atheists!

And, before you get caught up in trying to diverge on a Christianity tangent, most of the Dem candidates have religious affiliation (as did Barack Obama, who did a fine job of keeping his beliefs from interfering with his politics, IMO).

And that includes Mr. Biden:


Joe Biden: ‘I Happen to be a Practicing Catholic’

https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/cnsnewscom-staff/joe-biden-i-happen-be-practicing-catholic

[Lordquinton]

98. What atheists?

Please tell me so I can go support them.

[True Dough]

99. Maybe there are none?

I will admit I haven't researched every candidate's religious affiliation or lack thereof.

[Lordquinton]

102. There are a handful of atheists in politics

Generally at the local levels.all the candidates are Christian, except Sanders, who is Jewish.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

112. Seems anytime Dawkins says anything about religion

people completely lose their mind. But now it IS the atheists (of which we have already established there were likely none at the debate) that need to make a statement? I would imagine the atheist statement would be that religion needs to stay completely out of US politics. Which would not be a popular statement.

[emmaverybo]

55. Baiting. And your invitational post was baiting. NT

[True Dough]

58. You'd like to believe that

It's an invitation to engage in dialogue. No jury has hidden anything, and you can be sure that numerous alerts have been sent.

I'm proud of the DU jurists who can see that this topic is most certainly fair game.

Come back anytime you're ready to actually address the issue at hand, by the way.

[emmaverybo]

59. I was not thinking about it in terms of TOS at all. Yes, he referenced members in NRA, not

leadership. Biden is the author of strong gun control legislation in 1994 and under Obama. Obama
handed it off to him because he knew Biden’s heart was in it.

[True Dough]

60. The membership signs up and pays dues

The membership supports the organization, helps empower the NRA by swelling their numbers.

The membership -- at least the ones who have been part of the NRA for five years -- elect the leaders who have been totally uncompromising for many years.

The membership is not to be absolved. They are not our friends. They are not Dem voters.

[emmaverybo]

61. We need more than registered Dems to win.

[True Dough]

62. We don't need to compromise our values

and make sacrifices to gun nuts to push us over the top.

Ensuring there's no interference in the next election and that the DNC has all information on lockdown would be a much better use of our energy.

[emmaverybo]

63. Fair enough. All I need to know regarding Biden is that he would fight for gun control legislation

and has a record with it.

[gldstwmn]

67. Actually we don't. Registered Democrats far outnumber Republicans.

The race to the middle has gotten us absolutely nowhere.

[gldstwmn]

71. We already have more than enough. They need to be inspired to go to the polls and

Last edited Mon Jul 1, 2019, 12:28 AM - Edit history (1)

we need to make sure they are not disenfranchised. Also with the National Popular Vote interstate compact that strategy could be unnecessary.

[gldstwmn]

70. There's no difference between the rank and file.

[gldstwmn]

66. It is absolutely fair game since he's the one who brought it up.

I will have a very hard time voting for him because of that but will if I have to. We have better candidates. Biden is out of touch. His time is up. Unfortunately if he is our nominee there are going to be a lot of people who won't vote at all. Sorry.

[ucrdem]

22. Exactly.

[HopeAgain]

28. Anyone who still belongs to the NRA is okay with fascism

I'm sorry, but Biden is delusional if he thinks he will get a significant number of these assholes to vote Dem.

[gldstwmn]

68. There's no difference.

[Eliot Rosewater]

101. Correct. At the same time, I can myself no longer distinguish between them.

Members know what the NRA is about, they know the trail of death being left by them and if you ask the average member most will admit their DESIRE to own weapons outweighs everything else as to restricting guns.

[SCVDem]

5. Between all the Biden bashing

And the Bernie Bro's, I am already disgusted with these discussions.

Biden has been around so long you can nit pick most any vote or statement.

Could we have the context and history behind his choices?

Too much like work?

[True Dough]

12. The context and history of his choices in this case

are from Thursday night's nationally-televised debate and from his Twitter account post of June 27:

Link to tweet

No extensive research required to dig up any of that. It's all very recent. Now, to explain why Biden has chosen to pardon the NRA when other Democratic leaders have condemned the organization (and when the organization has targeted many Democratic leaders), that's something I cannot explain at all. It's unfathomable to me.

Do you have any ideas?

[George II]

6. I don't get your point at all. I'm sure someone can research comments made here....

....about issues that Buttigieg, your candidate, talks about that are contrary to Buttigieg's positions and ask "come forward and reconcile how you could make such statements in the recent past and support a candidate...."

Seems you did a lot of work to take a shot at something Biden said. It's disappointing to say the least.

[True Dough]

8. Feel free to do that, George II

And I can choose to respond or duck for cover, as the responders in this thread so far have preferred to go the latter route. Better to shoot the messenger (I'm sure the NRA would approve) than to address the NRA apologist position.

[George II]

10. I don't see how what Biden said is an "NRA apologist position". What I admire about those you say...

..."duck for cover" is that they didn't take the bait.

[True Dough]

15. The NRA isn't the enemy

You agree with those words?

[ucrdem]

13. It seemed clear that he was distinguishing between the lobbying operation and the membership.

I read somewhere that he' d meant to express it differently but the intention seemed clear enough.

[True Dough]

16. The membership supports the lobbying operation

It's part and parcel. If you are so disgusted by how an organization conducts itself, you refuse to sign up and pay dues.

[ucrdem]

17. Indirectly perhaps, but the membership also votes in elections.

so the distinction is worth making.

[True Dough]

20. Yes, the membership elected Wayne LaPierre!

So their votes count for a lot of harm and wrongdoing. But it's worth courting them as well, eh?

[ucrdem]

21. The NRA was around before Wayne LaPierre.

As I understand it the organization was originally much different than today. I don't know how democratic their internal voting is but as such things go probably not very.

[True Dough]

24. Yes, the NRA does predate Wayne LaPierre

It's a group with a proud history and exemplary stances on a variety of firearms issues:

[crazytown]

18. With the NRA leadership in turmoil, VP Biden could have chosen a worse time

to float some sort of detente with NRA members. If he is serious, it's a pretty bold move. As lead sponsor of the AWB, it is more Nixon in China, than SALT.

[Kaleva]

25. Meet the members of the NRA

"The year 2018, of course, saw several events that likely contributed to the spike in NRA member dues and contributions—the largest being the midterm elections. With Democrats promising to pass new gun-control measures if elected, many gun-rights supporters likely joined the NRA in the run up to November. And given the election resulted in Democrats capturing the House of Representatives, bringing in a number of new high-profile representatives openly hostile to gun rights, it is likely that also drove membership up."

https://freebeacon.com/issues/nra-membership-dues-contributions-rebounded-in-2018/

"In electing Donald Trump as president, American voters “sent a loud and clear message” that gun rights are to be protected, the National Rifle Association’s chief lobbyist said.

“In the face of threats against their constitutional freedoms, NRA members and Second Amendment supporters rallied to elect a pro-gun president,” Chris Cox said in a statement. “Trump’s victory repudiates the assertion by gun control advocates that the political calculus regarding the Second Amendment has changed.”"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2016/live-updates/general-election/real-time-updates-on-the-2016-election-voting-and-race-results/nra-voters-sent-a-loud-and-clear-message-about-gun-rights/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.92df32a30d2c

"A majority of gun owners (61%) are Republicans or lean to the Republican Party, but NRA members skew even more heavily to the political right than other gun owners. Roughly three-quarters (77%) of gun owners who say they belong to the NRA are Republicans or lean Republican, while only 20% are Democrats or lean Democratic. Among gun owners who do not belong to the NRA, by contrast, 58% are Republicans and 39% are Democrats. And among Republican gun owners, NRA members are much more likely than nonmembers to describe their political views as very conservative (29% vs. 18%).

....About half (52%) of Republican gun owners who belong to the NRA, for instance, say gun laws in the U.S. should be less strict than they are now; 33% of Republican gun owners who don’t belong to the NRA share this view."

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/07/05/among-gun-owners-nra-members-have-a-unique-set-of-views-and-experiences/

About the only gun control measures a majority of Republicans support is preventing mentally ill people from purchasing guns and having background checks for private sales and at gun shows. That's it. A majority oppose restrictions on assault weapons, high capacity magazines and creating a federal database to track gun sales.

It's a stretch to say that a majority of NRA members, of whom a majority are Republicans, support common sense gun control measures.

"But this bipartisan consensus breaks down when it comes to other proposals. Two-thirds of Americans (67%) favor creating a federal database to track gun sales, but there is a wide partisan divide between Democrats (84%) and Republicans (49%). A smaller majority of the public (55%) favors a ban on assault-style weapons; Democrats (69%) also are far more likely than Republicans (44%) to support this. Similar partisan divides exist when it comes to banning high-capacity ammunition clips or the sale of ammunition online.

... The latter option is particularly divisive across party lines: 56% of Republicans would like to see more teachers and school officials armed, compared with just 23% of Democrats."

https://www.people-press.org/2013/01/14/in-gun-control-debate-several-options-draw-majority-support/

[democratisphere]

26. Support the Second Amendment.

Never supported the NRA.

[guillaumeb]

27. We must distinguish between the leadership of the NRA, and the membership. eom

[True Dough]

29. The membership enables the leadership

The members voluntarily sign up and pay dues. They vote for the leaders (as long as they've been a member for 5 years). The leadership they've installed have been ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE in regards to making any concessions on gun rights.

There are approximately 5 million members of the NRA. There's no sense in attempting to pander to them because the vast majority of them are not going to vote for Dems anyway.

To hell with those guys. It's a losing proposition for a Dem candidate to try to win over a fraction of them.

[Kaleva]

30. I find it fascinating that we are now to accept (embrace?) the majority of NRA members

[True Dough]

31. You'll notice that there have been plenty of Biden supporters

who defend Joe to the hilt in the busing threads. "That was 38 years ago! What else are you going to dredge up?"
"Joe was right, you're misconstruing his words."

But there have only been a few who have ventured into this thread take up the gauntlet, and they've done so poorly. Reaching out to the NRA is a terrible strategy by Biden. It will not do more good than harm.

You can see in the OP how some DUers have described the NRA and now they're supporting Biden. Best of luck with making peace with that!

[Kaleva]

35. It's far easier to defend a 30+ year old position then a current one.

[True Dough]

37. Absolutely it is.

And that's their problem.

[UniteFightBack]

43. True that is a stupid idea to reach out...who gives a fuck about Florida, Ohio, PENN , Arizona..

Wisconsin, Michigan. Yeah stupid to reach out.

[True Dough]

46. There are approximately 5 million NRA members.

Maybe, just maybe, Biden can win over 20% of them. They're typically not Dem voters. That's 1 million people.

As a candidate appealing to the NRA in an attempt to get those 1 million votes, you're going to alienate some of your Democratic base, who absolutely loathe the NRA and all it stands for (there are many who feel that way here at the DU). So, based on that issue alone, some of those people will simply jump ship to another candidate. Biden could easily drive away 1 million Dems -- possibly a lot more --by opening the door to the NRA.

It's a zero sum game, at best, I believe. It's not well thought out at all.

[UniteFightBack]

50. It's actually an outreach to the broader mass of gun owning people. It's him saying he's not

against the gun owners. I think it is smart politics.

[True Dough]

52. Hey, I can't disagree that letting the "broader range" of gun owners has some merit

Any of our Dem candidates could make clear that they are not out to confiscate American's firearms, or express their support for the Second Amendment. That would be much less offensive to many Democrats than saying that the NRA - a vile organization - isn't our enemy.

[RHMerriman]

53. Is someone actually arguing against this quote?

Is someone actually arguing against this quote?

"The members of the NRA are not our opponents — the vast majority of them support common-sense reforms, including universal background checks."

As in, if an NRA member supports universal background checks, that is not a) a good thing; and b) worth minor outreach over?

Or are we do the "are you now or have you ever been" stage of the circular firing squad?

[gldstwmn]

72. Reaching around to the NRA will not win those states. No need to curse.

[UniteFightBack]

73. Well ain't that some shit. If your gonna call out all the cursing and cursors you got a lot of

work to do so you better gets to getting. Or is that you have a problem with JUST MY use of the word fuck.

[gldstwmn]

75. You seem pretty frustrated. I'm sorry things aren't working out the way you want them to.

[UniteFightBack]

76. I want you to have a wonderful fucking night...or what's left of it! xoxooxxo

[treestar]

32. I see Biden's point. What is wrong with that?

And please tell us why Mayor Pete would be a good President rather than trying to bring down another candidate.

[True Dough]

36. Take a look at the numerous posts in this thread

and this earlier one:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1287177763


There are plenty of posts in both threads explaining what is wrong with Biden's position on the NRA, not just my own thoughts, but those of other DUers, including those supporting Biden.

If this is a big enough issue to "bring down" Biden, well, it's his own doing. He voluntarily put his position out there during the debate and on his social media.

You see, the primary is about determining who is the best candidate. That means contenders make the best case for themselves that they can. It also means that candidates, and their supporters, are going to voice what they perceive as flaws in their rivals' platforms. That's the way it goes.

So when somebody who supports another candidate says, "Please don't say something critical about the person I'm supporting," I say, "Either mount a defense or admit there's an issue."

As for Mayor Pete, I have created and posted in numerous threads why he has my vote at this point. I'm fully cognizant that Pete also faces challenges on his road to the presidency. Could any of those obstacles prevent him from getting there? Most definitely. I will remain an ardent ally until he's out of the race. Then, at that juncture, I plan to get behind Elizabeth Warren or Kamala Harris.

Biden isn't the strongest or brightest of this crop, IMO. If he is our nominee, so be it. I'll take Joe over Trump in a heartbeat. But until Biden reaches that finish line, there's plenty of debating and vetting to take place.

[treestar]

39. I haven't read every one of your posts

I think if they need to discuss others’ flaws, then they don’t have enough to say about their own strengths and are therefore not going to be the best candidate.

Mayor pete is too young. He should not run for president until 2032.

[True Dough]

40. Let me see if I understand your post correctly...

You state in the first part of it that they shouldn't discuss others flaws, because that's a sign of weakness?

Then in the second part, you try to make a case that Mayor Pete's youth is a flaw and he should therefore not run for another 13 years.


The contradictory nature of that is rather striking. So it's just the candidates themselves who should refrain from pointing out flaws? Because you went ahead and attempt to discredit Pete based on age.

[treestar]

44. I'm just showing you how it is

You make a post attacking not really Biden, but his supporters, and take the trouble to find their old posts. I'm amazed it is not hidden.

Anyway, it is rather contradictory of you to complain of negativity. But that's what you are going to hear. You are going to hear a lot of opinion that he is too young. If he says anything questionable, or not even that but something that can be spun into something questionable, then it's going to be all about how he misjudged due to lack of life experience. And you're not going to like that. But if that's the way you insist it has to be, so I suppose you are not going to complain about that?

Anyway, Biden merely said that the NRA members are not directly enemies - probably quite true. A good many of them may not be politically insane about it and able to deal with regulations. You're trying to make Joe into a gun nut. Not good faith, and you will complain if it gets done to Mayor Pete.

[True Dough]

45. That's where you're wrong

Of course I don't invite people to attack Mayor Pete, but I fully expect it. It's primary season. Time to grow some thicker skin!
I have already read some posts where a few DUers express their lack of confidence in Pete's limited experience. I can't tell them they're all wrong. That's their opinion. That's what discussion forums should be all about, expressing opinions.

Of my two threads on the NRA issue, one was directed at Biden's words. This one is about Biden and his supporters who have previously expressed their disdain for the NRA. There's no way that deserves to be hidden! It's a completely valid issue. I can't believe you'd suggest a jury should make it disappear. Talk about unnecessary censorship. It's not like I'm scouring Breitbart or the Drudge Report looking for ways to smear Biden. I'm citing his own words and how they contradict the explicit positions taken by DUers who are now supporting him.

"Your trying to make Joe into a gun not." What poppycock!

Take a look at this thread:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1287&pid=181712

DUers generally don't hold the NRA membership in high regard. That shouldn't come as a shock.

If I'd been posting here at the DU for years about how I cannot support medical for all and then Mayor Pete comes out in favor of medical for all, I would fully expect others to ask me, "Are you suddenly on board with medical for all?" That's a reasonable question.

[treestar]

48. It is calling out other DUers

and that is not allowed.

For the love of dog, can you not argue that Mayor Pete would never ever say an NRA supporter might possibly be an OK person? That he hates the NRA with the heat of a thousand suns. That he will never take any $$ from the NRA or anyone who supports it? Why is that so hard?

[True Dough]

57. Mayor Pete or any other Dem candidate

can express their support for gun ownership without opening the door to the NRA. Nobody even questioned Biden about the NRA specifically. He voluntarily made that statement during the debate and posted it on his Twitter account. Mistake!

Mayor Pete very likely knows some NRA members. He did active duty in the navy. He carried an M4 carbine and a pistol himself. But he's on the record as supporting universal background checks and banning bump stocks. That's smart politics. If he reached out to the NRA -- a truly vile organization -- I'd be disappointed enough to support another candidate. I can say that's a "red line" for me.

As for "calling out" other DUers, I did it without posting any usernames? Notice that? I invited those particular forum members to engage on discussion on the dichotomy between their unequivocal contempt for the NRA and their candidate's position that the NRA isn't so bad. That sort of dialogue is part of the reason I'm here. And I'm glad that, despite a number of alerts that were almost certainly filed after I created this thread, no jury has seen fit to hide any part of it.

[treestar]

79. How did Biden "reach out" to the NRA?

He didn't. I wonder if you even know Biden's position on guns.

[True Dough]

82. He's opening the door by saying they're not our enemy

They're sure as hell not our allies. They never will be.

I don't claim to be an expert on Biden's position on guns. I heard him say during the debate that only biometric firearms (or "smart guns" ) should be sold in the U.S. There currently are no smart guns for sale in America. Know why? Because of the NRA. Look it up.

I also see Biden said this:

"Gun licensing will not change whether or not people buy what weapons — what kinds of weapons they can buy, where they can use them, how they can store them." – CNN

Yet, Buttigieg, Warren, Harris, Sanders, Booker, Hickenlooper, Inslee, Swalwell and Yang have expressed support for firearms licensing.

Beyond that, I think Biden has a strong record on guns. My objective isn't to vilify him. He's a good man, IMO. He's just not the best candidate among a very strong field.

[UniteFightBack]

42. People are too busy being 'pure'...meanwhile average everyday Democrats DON'T GIVE A CRAP ABOUT

THIS.

[MineralMan]

33. The NRA is all but bankrupt - due to internal corruption.

[Paladin]

34. NRA membership is a virtual guarantee of right-wing Democratic-hating beliefs.

There are a few exceptions to this, but not enough to be concerned about. Biden is saying what he has to say, but he's wrong---the entire NRA membership should be considered hostile to the guiding principles of the Democratic Party. They've worked tirelessly for decades to attain that hateful status, and they should be regarded as the enemy.

[True Dough]

38. I'm with you on that

We don't need what little support we could cultivate from NRA members, and at what price? We'd have to make sacrifices to persuade them to cross the aisle.

And, in the meantime, it will turn off many Dems.

A losing proposition indeed.

[UniteFightBack]

41. Considering I'm not stupid it's pretty clear why he said this. There may be some votes to be

gotten there....especially in the SWING STATES...REMEMBER THOSE LITTLE OLD THINGS. He's avoiding calling them the deplorables that so many of them are.

Really you THINK EVERY SINGLE NRA member is evil or whatever. Way to paint with a broad brush of course there are some good people mixed in there.

Perhaps a better tactic he should employ would be take downs of his democratic rivals over bullshit.

[True Dough]

47. I just responded to you in the other thread where you made a very similar response

It's a political miscalculation by Biden, plain and simple.

[UniteFightBack]

49. Sure if that's what you think...we'll see if he suffers for it. nt

[gldstwmn]

74. He will not be the nominee. Of that I am fairly certain.

His campaign is a disorganized mess and he doesn't want to listen to what they're trying to tell him anyway. Their most effective strategy to date has been to hide him and they're not going to be able to do that for another 15 months. He was a great VP and I have nothing against him personally but he has lost what, four presidential primary runs now? Honestly as of today it's really down to Warren, Harris and Buttigieg. I can easily see any of them being our nominee. I like Bernie and caucused for him last time and I just don't think he has the juice this time. We need to move forward. This isn't 1980 or even 2000 or 2008. We are in some uncharted waters here.

[Lint Head]

51. The NRA is directly responsible for mass murder.

Fuck Wayne la Piss Ant and the NRA!

[yardwork]

54. This is weird, dude.

I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish with this thread.

[Hoyt]

56. Despise NRA, manufacturers, other gun profiteers, and gun-lovers. They all are synonymous and

deplorable. If you are against one, you are against all.

I honestly don't think Biden gave the NRA a pass. It is true that gun manufacturers, today, run the NRA through funding. In fact, the NRA is the lobbying arm of the manufacturers/profiteers.

[Jersey Devil]

64. Biden did not say that "NRA and its members are not the enemy"

I have not consulted the transcript of the debate, but what I heard was "NRA members are not the enemy". So was Biden drawing a distinction between the NRA and NRA members? Did anyone ask him to clarify that after the debate? My take on what he was saying was that NRA members are mostly in favor of reasonable gun restrictions, which I think has been reported several times before. The NRA itself is not in favor of those restrictions and perhaps Biden should have clarified that. But given the limited time a candidate has to answer questions with 10 candidates on stage, more detailed comments on the issue should have been solicited by the media and Biden's campaign should have realized that. His campaign has to do a better job.

[True Dough]

65. Biden's Twitter account specified NRA members

During the debate, he said "the NRA"

Either way, the members are what make up the NRA. They pay dues. They vote for the leadership (as long as they've been members of the organization for five years). They are not going to vote for a Democrat. It's not worth trying to win over a fraction of them when it will drive away Dems who utterly despise the NRA and all that it stands for.

[Kaleva]

69. Meet the members of the NRA

The year 2018, of course, saw several events that likely contributed to the spike in NRA member dues and contributions—the largest being the midterm elections. With Democrats promising to pass new gun-control measures if elected, many gun-rights supporters likely joined the NRA in the run up to November. And given the election resulted in Democrats capturing the House of Representatives, bringing in a number of new high-profile representatives openly hostile to gun rights, it is likely that also drove membership up."

https://freebeacon.com/issues/nra-membership-dues-contributions-rebounded-in-2018/

"In electing Donald Trump as president, American voters “sent a loud and clear message” that gun rights are to be protected, the National Rifle Association’s chief lobbyist said.

“In the face of threats against their constitutional freedoms, NRA members and Second Amendment supporters rallied to elect a pro-gun president,” Chris Cox said in a statement. “Trump’s victory repudiates the assertion by gun control advocates that the political calculus regarding the Second Amendment has changed.”"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2016/live-updates/general-election/real-time-updates-on-the-2016-election-voting-and-race-results/nra-voters-sent-a-loud-and-clear-message-about-gun-rights/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.92df32a30d2c

"A majority of gun owners (61%) are Republicans or lean to the Republican Party, but NRA members skew even more heavily to the political right than other gun owners. Roughly three-quarters (77%) of gun owners who say they belong to the NRA are Republicans or lean Republican, while only 20% are Democrats or lean Democratic. Among gun owners who do not belong to the NRA, by contrast, 58% are Republicans and 39% are Democrats. And among Republican gun owners, NRA members are much more likely than nonmembers to describe their political views as very conservative (29% vs. 18%).

....About half (52%) of Republican gun owners who belong to the NRA, for instance, say gun laws in the U.S. should be less strict than they are now; 33% of Republican gun owners who don’t belong to the NRA share this view."

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/07/05/among-gun-owners-nra-members-have-a-unique-set-of-views-and-experiences/

About the only gun control measures a majority of Republicans support is preventing mentally ill people from purchasing guns and having background checks for private sales and at gun shows. That's it. A majority oppose restrictions on assault weapons, high capacity magazines and creating a federal database to track gun sales.

It's a stretch to say that a majority of NRA members, of whom a majority are Republicans, support common sense gun control measures.

"But this bipartisan consensus breaks down when it comes to other proposals. Two-thirds of Americans (67%) favor creating a federal database to track gun sales, but there is a wide partisan divide between Democrats (84%) and Republicans (49%). A smaller majority of the public (55%) favors a ban on assault-style weapons; Democrats (69%) also are far more likely than Republicans (44%) to support this. Similar partisan divides exist when it comes to banning high-capacity ammunition clips or the sale of ammunition online.

... The latter option is particularly divisive across party lines: 56% of Republicans would like to see more teachers and school officials armed, compared with just 23% of Democrats."

https://www.people-press.org/2013/01/14/in-gun-control-debate-several-options-draw-majority-support/

[zaj]

77. I'll try ..

The NRA was corrupted by the manufacturers? Replace the leaders and rechart the mission and the organization can be restored?

[True Dough]

80. Sounds like a wonderful theory

Making it happen in reality, well, that's a different matter altogether. Your post is a little scant on details of how that would be accomplished.

Even if it was somehow successful, I think it's a safe bet that a splinter organization would be formed and it would take the place of the right-wing NRA. There's a lot of powerful lobbyists within the organization and some fervent supporters with deep pockets. And remember, the leaders are installed by the membership.

We'll likely always oppose what they've become and attempt to thwart their fight for atrocious legislation, but I don't think they're going away anytime soon. And I don't believe we're going to attract meaningful numbers of them to vote for the Dems.

[zaj]

85. We know...

... Biden is trying to be the candidate who pulls in Obama voters who defected to Trump in hunting states like Michigan, Wisconsin, Ohio and Pennsylvania.

These are hunters and NRA members who believe the NRA isn't corrupt and evil.

So he's trying to find a logic that unites both sides. This is a logic that works in theory.

The NRA *was* a fine organization at one time, but under the current leadership, it has become deeply corrupt by the influence of the manufacturers.

As a membership driven nonprofit corporation it's possible that it can be returned to it's original mission by the authority of it's members. The members can vote our the current board of directors and then fire the CEO. Then hire new leaders that are trashed with bringing it back to it's hunting mission.

Do I expect any of that is realistic? It feels nearly impossible, but it's a logic and approach that's both true (corruption is tired in the control by the manufacturers) and might be heard by the voters we have to join us (Midwestern Obama to Trump voters). And it's one if the few tactics I've seen that might start to unite Americans again.

[True Dough]

86. Can you provide any statistics

showing the numbers of hunters and NRA members who were Obama voters and who voted for Trump. I'd welcome empirical evidence.

I am aware of Russian interference in the election, as proven by multiple U.S. intelligence agencies. I think it's safe to say that factor very likely cost Hillary some states that were previously blue.

[zaj]

87. Pew: 20% of NRA members are Democrats

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/07/05/among-gun-owners-nra-members-have-a-unique-set-of-views-and-experiences/

That's the best data I could find quickly.

[True Dough]

88. But we don't know what percentage of that 20 per cent defected to Trump

Maybe half? So 10% of NRA members stand to be wooed back to the Democratic party perhaps. Ten per cent of 5 million is 500,000 votes (if every one of them shows up at the polls). Is it worth open the door to a vile organization like the NRA in hopes of winning back half a million votes when you're going to turn off a whole lot of Dems who have no use for the NRA or its policies? I cannot put a number on how many Dems that would be, but suffice it to say I'm confident it's a losing proposition. If it was a winner, you'd hear other Dem candidates saying similar things. Biden is largely on his own here, it seems, and he's heading for troubled waters, IMO.

[zaj]

89. Blaming the manufacturers is a winning strategy. .

... And grounded in truth as well. He can reword his language to say that the NRA has become corrupt because of gun manufacturer sales goals, and he's right in track.

IMO, its a minor campaign correction.

[tirebiter]

78. Howard Dean and Bernie Sanders have both used their positive ratings with the NRA

When running for office. And as a former member I understand why.

[True Dough]

81. Bernie Sanders back then, or Bernie Sanders now?

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/3/4/18236537/bernie-sanders-gun-control-president-campaign-2020

[tirebiter]

103. Does it matter?

[True Dough]

105. Apparently not to you

But Bernie has changed his tune on guns over the past few years.

[tirebiter]

113. Does now

But then I ‘d guess Biden could negotiate with him now.

[gldstwmn]

92. That was before Mueller/Russia.

To me there is a clear choice. You are either on the side of the NRA or accept the findings of Mueller/Russia. It can't be both.

[LanternWaste]

83. Who, specifically?

"Some of you DUers have gone silent or apparently softened on the NRA."

And can you provide objective examples of these posters writing diametrically opposed sentiments in regards to the NRA?

Or is this merely another "I refuse to support my own allegations-- you do it" statements?

[True Dough]

84. You read the OP in full, didn't you?

You read at least part of it because you're quoting some of my words. Further down in the OP are a bunch of pasted passages from fellow DUers in regards to the NRA, which makes it abundantly clear that they hold the NRA in contempt.

I know who each of them is and you too can find these statements, and lots more, by checking the archives for NRA threads. I'm not about to attach their names to the statements in the OP because that would assuredly result in a hide for attacking other members of the forum.

So I'm asking those DUers, and others like them, how they can detest the NRA but support a candidate who says the NRA isn't our enemy.

Understood?

[Midwestocrat]

90. This is bullshit. That is all.

Maybe you're confusing Biden with Sanders or Hick or Bullock or Bennet or Gillibrand, who have received high grades from the NRA in the past. But Biden has NEVER been a "pro-gun" politician.

Promote your own person, don't put others down. It's incredibly off-putting. It makes me think less of Mr. Buttigieg if this is what his supporters are like.

[BannonsLiver]

91. Well technically it's not bullshit

I mean if people wrote these things they wrote them. I guess what’s debatable is if it’s creepy, or just a little weird to go back and gather the posts and then present them this way. I’m on the fence. The delivery style via call out is pure cheese ball, that much I can establish.

[gldstwmn]

93. You missed the point completely.

[True Dough]

94. It was Biden who said last week that the NRA and its membership are not our enemy

Not Sanders. Not Bennet. Not Gillibrand.

It's too bad that tough questions are so off-putting for you, but his is a political discussion forum and I'm operating within the terms of service.

Have you checked out the DU Lounge? There's lighter fare there.

[LanternWaste]

95. Less tough questions, and more your denial of answers which don't validate your narrative.

but I can readily understand your reticence to perceive the obvious when the obvious counters your biased interpretations you pretend are absolute.

Just no reason to request objective evidence to support your premise is there? You're either unable to unwilling to do so. I get it... I'd refuse evidence as well if my arguments rested on nothing more than allegation and editorial.



It's too bad providing objective, evidence-based answers are so off-putting to you.
(six of one, half a dozen of other other-- and each as petulant and without substance as the other.)

[True Dough]

97. I don't know how much simpler I can make this...

Last edited Mon Jul 1, 2019, 04:22 PM - Edit history (1)

Fact (or objective evidence, if you prefer): Joe Biden said the NRA isn't the enemy during last week's debate. It was also posted on his official Twitter account that the members of the NRA are not our opponents. Both statements are verifiable.

So I created this thread. You still following me?

I pointed out that some of Joe Biden's supporters on the DU have been vociferously opposed to the NRA and I quoted some of those members' comments from anti-NRA threads (again, all verifiable by searching the DU archives):

"The NRA is a terrorist organization."

"The NRA is evil."

"NRA needs to be reported to the FBI for this type of intimidation tactic. this proves NRA is a dangerous hate group that should have its status as a nonprofit revoked and be investigated for inciting violence. This is so alarming, and done in plain sight. The crazies are not hiding the fact they're a hate group at this point."

So, once again, the premise of this thread is to challenge those members, and others in a similar boat, to step forward and explain how they can rationalize or condone Biden's statements when they are unequivocally hostile to the NRA, which has been hostile to the Democratic party.

Is that really so hard?

[Hassin Bin Sober]

96. This is disqualifying

[Voltaire2]

100. How many concurrent Biden Splains are in progress?

This is getting ridiculous.
1. The Eastland Splain
2. The Hoodie Splain.
3. The Gay Waiters Splain.
4. The NRA Splain.

Has anyone mentioned that a Biden campaign will devolve into an endless series of gaffe-distractions?

[True Dough]

104. No splain response from you

Just a list of splain demands. I can say I'm not responsible for any of the other splains. Never created any of those threads or posted in those threads calling for an explanation.

I'm definitely focused on the NRA splain!

[UncleFrank]

106. As Senator Warren said Wednesday

There is a big difference between a gun nut /2A fanatic and a reasonable collector who never fires their guns. Our policy should reflect this reality.

I don't think this should disqualify Vice President Biden but the simple fact is NRA members are not reasonable collectors. They are overwhelmingly angry straight white males who use their guns to intimidate women and persons of color. It's time we as a society stood up and said "NO MORE!". Imagine if we channeled the resources from the war on marijuana into a war on guns!

[True Dough]

109. Frankly,

I agree, UncleFrank.

Not disqualifying for Biden, but foolhardy, and likely costly among would-be supporters.

[Lordquinton]

107. Giving the benefit of the doubt

Why is he reaching out to NRA members now? They are majority Republicans and will not be voting in the Democratic primary.

[True Dough]

110. It's baffling

The strategy makes no sense to me!

[Autumn]

108. It's Dems that he needs to court, not the NRA. He doesn't need to go out of his way

to puff up the NRA. Fuck Wayne LaPierre and the members who keep him in charge.

[True Dough]

111. EXACTLY!

Fuck 'em is right!