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[trueblue2007]

This message was self-deleted by its author (trueblue2007) on Sun Sep 15, 2019, 11:44 AM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. But, but, his gaffes!

It's getting to be like Hillary's emails, or Benghazi. Too bad to see a Democrat getting Benghazi'd by other Democrats.

[trueblue2007]

3. they ALL have gaffes don't they !!!! media is desperate

[Skya Rhen]

2. Joe looks awesome - love him!

[samnsara]

5. me too!!! He makes me feel safe.

[IronLionZion]

4. Joe's in way better shape than Donny

I'm glad DUers are so excited about our candidates.

[Fiendish Thingy]

6. What some call gaffes, other see as evidence of cognitive decline

His rambling, incoherent, tone deaf, scoffing answer to the question on schools, race, and reparations in the last debate is Exhibit One, but there are many others.

My grandmother was sharp into her nineties, and my Aunt showed signs of dementia in her fifties; it's not ageism, it's vetting a candidate's fitness for office.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

7. So let's see how the campaign plays out.

If the voters don't think he's up to the job they won't vote for him. He's releasing his medical records, which are likely to include relevant information. But his "gaffes" have become an exaggerated meme, like Ford's clumsiness, Gore's stiffness, and Hillary's emails, all of which were media-fed bullshit; any slight slip of the tongue that would be ignored if anyone else did it is added to the list of his alleged gaffes. If down the road I don't think he's competent I won't vote for him. So far I haven't seen any good reasons related to his competency not to.

[emmaverybo]

8. Those who think gaffes signal early dementia are simply wrong. Scoffing and

tone-deafness, a matter of interpretation, has nothing to do with cognitive decline.

You are not vetting. You are gaslighting a candidate you strongly dislike.

[Fiendish Thingy]

9. Biden's inability to express a complete thought/sentence, his forgetfulness, confabulation

Those aren't gaffes, those are symptoms. He has a long history of "gaffes", but these symptoms are a recent development over the past few years.

Go watch him on Colbert in 2015, and his most recent appearance on the show a couple of weeks ago - it's striking, and combined with other recent incidents, including Thursday's debate, sufficient evidence to warrant concern.

There's a reason his campaign schedule isn't as vigorous as the other candidates, and we can't risk having a nominee who doesn't have the stamina or focus for the general campaign.

[emmaverybo]

10. Exaggerating. Saw him on climate change. Saw him on Colbert. Heard the speeches. Read the

op-Ed. He had an extended interview with black journalists. Why don’t you chill a bit and wait for the medical report? Otherwise, you will just have to keep up your good citizen warnings or take to
petitioning for him to drop out. For now, he’s running and he’s running ahead.

[peggysue2]

11. My sister is 66 years old and has suffered with . . .

premature Alzheimer's since her mid-50s. Trust me on this: Biden's gaffes and/or word stumbles aren't remotely similar to dementia. My sister can barely give a cogent answer on anything beyond a high-pitched laugh and a "I don't know." Our father suffered with the same early-onset disease.

You want to talk about confabulation? You're doing right now turning these so-called gaffes into dementia symptoms.

Stop it!

[Fiendish Thingy]

13. As you well know, dementia progresses at different rates for different folks

My aunt was like your sister- early onset, rapid decline. Not everyone's cognitive functioning declines the same way, but the difference in Biden is noticeable.

[emmaverybo]

15. This armchair diagnosis is becoming offensive. I had dementia in my family. I had to study up.

I don’t want this argument, just need to tell you it is bordering on inappropriate.

Your observations are not medically sound, you seem uninformed, and your motives appear not to be in furtherance of healthy political debate, but in the service of your need to discredit Biden’s candidacy under the guise of offering a concerned assessment, at the best unprofessional, and at the worst, perhaps unintentionally, malicious.

Obviously, you are not convincing supporters. Perhaps you should bring your concerns up with the DNC.

[Hekate]

17. Your deep deep concern has been duly noted. May I add that it is appalling. I am concerned...

...about your level of concern.

Do take care of yourself.

[True Blue American]

54. Having watched dementia

Develop several times I do see the same thing in Trump. Repeating the same thing over and over.reverting to the past. Most dementia starts with short term memory loss.

A life long friend could tell me things that took place in our childhood, but could not remember what she said a minute before. Then it usually progresses to Alzheimers. Trump is in the dementia phase.

[peggysue2]

62. Trump has some sort of serious cognitive decline going on

Don't know whether it's dementia or addled brain from drug usage or what. However, he does have a family history with his father dying with Alzheimer's, a terrible, debilitating disease.

In my family, the onset was not being able to do tasks that both my father and sister knew inside out. For my dad, always a whiz with math and figures, he could no longer write up a simple sales tax for his customers. For my sister, it was no longer being able to use the accounting software that she had bought, tweaked and utilized at the firm where she worked. She ultimately quit her job with some excuse about personality clashes with the boss. But later, she admitted she just couldn't do the job. She lied about it because she was embarrassed, ashamed, and . . . terrified. We both watched our father slip into the darkness, a prolonged and ugly death. She knew what the future held.

So yes, the symptoms vary from case-to-case. But equating Biden's word stumbles and/or so-called gaffes with true dementia is both offensive and hurtful to anyone who has lived with and seen Alzheimer's disease up close and personal. We're talking about a man who overcame severe stuttering as a kid and we're going to make an issue over his word slips?

To quote Joe Biden: Give me a break!

I'm not going to say anything more on the subject because it infuriates me. Not you, True Blue. I'm speaking about other posters.

[athena]

12. If Biden is the nominee, that answer he gave will be on a TV commercial.

I don't care one way or the other whether it's cognitive decline, but you need to ask yourself what the Republicans will do with it and whether the country can take that risk.

[emmaverybo]

14. I don't have to ask myself. I know right now what Republicans are saying about our candidates.

Without getting specific, I will simply say that the comments are equally appalling and fear-mongering as to playing the video you suggest. Actually, more so.

[treestar]

22. So let's let the Republicans decide

and when they are running a Dotard, no less!

They will have a field day with whoever it is and we will be fighting it, but don't pretend the Rs will do anything less with Warren.

Think about it. There is plenty they can do to make her look deranged.

[Thekaspervote]

28. And if someone else is the nominee the commercials will be just as bad or worse! Stop fooling

Yourself!!

[Thekaspervote]

27. This!

[Hekate]

16. The "gaffes" are a longstanding LAZY journalistic meme. The meme goes back decades.

Oooh, Joe's a gaffe machine, how can he run in (pick a year, any year). Okay?

It's on a par with "But her emails." Actually it is lower than that.

Here's a litmus test for you: if Chuck Todd and Andrea Mitchell are chewing it over with their panels of talking heads With Great Concern, just discount it entirely.

[Fiendish Thingy]

24. How about if several AA journalists (not just Joy Reid) are calling for Biden to end his run?

There has been an outpouring of calls for Biden to end his campaign after his performance on Thursday, both over concerns for his cognitive functioning and his tone deaf, paternalistic comments on race. A number of commentators in MSNBC beside Joy have criticized Biden following the debate.

I wouldn't trust Chuck Todd or Andrea Mitchell with the sports and weather.

Nobody is mentioning "gaffes", they are talking about fitness for office.

[Thekaspervote]

29. Name some of your sources for the "outpouring" of calls to end his campaign

Good sources... not just hit pieces

[Fiendish Thingy]

35. The most visible has been the Rolling Stone article by Jamil Smith

But you probably consider that a hit piece...lots of others saying Biden's performance in Thursday was disqualifying.

[Thekaspervote]

41. Yes, if fact DU adm took the rollingstone piece down as inflammatory

Other sources?

[Fiendish Thingy]

45. Sure, here's some more:

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/9/13/1885314/-What-the-hell-was-it-with-Biden-s-reparations-word-salad-answer-and-his-scoffing-at-the-question

https://www.theroot.com/post-debate-analysis-joe-biden-is-a-white-man-the-med-1838099542

HOUSTON—Let’s get straight to the point: Joe Biden showed his ass on the debate stage last night and there is no way in hell he should have the support from black voters that he has. Much of this has to do with a mainstream, white punditry establishment and press corps that treats him like an elder statesman whose racist responses and flip-flops are rationalized as gaffes and misinterpretations.

https://verysmartbrothas.theroot.com/joe-biden-appears-to-be-the-last-person-to-realize-that-1838071894

Lots of links and tweets in the above links, but I'm sure you'll still consider them "hit pieces" and not legitimate criticism.

BTW, not ALL threads with links to the Rolling Stone article have been deleted...

[Thekaspervote]

51. Yes, I know that all threads have not been removed

[treestar]

65. If he still polls well with black voters

and is still in the lead, why listen to "several AA journalists?"

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

32. Exactly.

It's Hillary's emails, Gore's stiffness, Ford's clumsiness - none of which were actually true in any significant sense. They were memes that the media stuck to people because it was easier than coming up with some kind of analysis. Gore was the victim of snarky columnists like Maureen Dowd; Ford tripped while boarding AF1 and SNL ran with it; Hillary's emails came from the GOP but the media couldn't shut up about it. Biden is not as facile an impromptu speaker as some, but every hesitation or clunky phrase - which everyone who speaks in public does from time to time - is flogged as "OMG another Biden gaffe!" It's Hillary's emails all over again. I thought we'd learned something from 2016 but maybe not.

[treestar]

21. How do they explain his gaffes all along then?

Your aunt doesn't prove anything. This quoting of oneself or one's relations is a constant here; it proves nothing.

[Fiendish Thingy]

25. You seem to be confusing criticism of "gaffes" with evidence of cognitive decline

Joe has a long history of "gaffes", or misspeaking (or what some say is a politician accidentally speaking an embarrassing truth or expressing their honest feelings on a topic).

Biden does not have a long history of being unable to complete sentences or express a coherent thought, as was evident at the last debate and his most recent appearance on Colbert.

[Thekaspervote]

30. That's your opinion.. you are entitled to it

[treestar]

61. I watched the Colbert show

no such thing happened.

[Fiendish Thingy]

63. Joe didn't say "the details don't matter" to Colbert

Regarding his mangled recounting of pinning the medal on the soldier?

He stumbled and fumbled even to get that scripted comment out, to a friendly interviewer.

[treestar]

64. Don't remember it like that

I guess we see what we expect to see.

[stonecutter357]

48. Donald Trump is a racist pig !

[Tarheel_Dem]

18. Yes he does!

[crazytown]

19. Joe has had a lot of work done,

some of it not for the better.

[trueblue2007]

20. WHAT IN THE WORLD ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT ????? ...... Joe has had a lot of work done

[crazytown]

23. surgery

overdone this time round

[Thekaspervote]

31. Now that is low!! Haven't got anything of substance so you go with that?!

You are not winning the minds of voters with these sorts of comments

Why not say something positive about EW instead?

[crazytown]

34. Perfectly appropriate for this OP

"Biden looks younger than both Sanders and Rump".

[Thekaspervote]

42. So, anything positive about your own candidate?

[crazytown]

43. OK. She has the energy of someone in their fifties.

I couldn't stick around for more than three hours in a selfie line after a big event. As I said further down, if you are going to have an OP on ageism, asking who looks younger than who is not a good start.

[treestar]

66. You started with some of it not being for the better

which means that it does not make him look younger? What about it is not for the better?

I don't see it as obvious. Some Hollywood types it does seem obvious. But men seem to get away with it better.

Once Steven Colbert put himself in that box with I think Tom Hanks. Steven looked older than Tom. I looked up their ages and Steven is 10 years younger than Tom. Immediately it occurred to me that Tom had work done. Yet without that context, I would not have assumed it.

[crazytown]

67. No, I ended with some of it not being for the better.

and it's a personal opinion only. He kinda sorta looks about the same age as he did in 2007/8, minus the bags that were under his eyes then. I'm not sure if taking them out changed the shape of his eyes, but the end result doesn't look good to me.

[obnoxiousdrunk]

38. Have a link for that ?

Or is it PFA ?

[Demsrule86]

44. New low for your posts...seriously. I don't see folks posting such things about Warren...only

whether she can win or not... (she can't win a primary without an uptick in AA support nor will she win a General). She of course has my vote in the general should she win the primary...but I fear we would get four more years of Trump possibly with a GOP house as well.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

33. What's the evidence of that?

And even if he did, so what?

[crazytown]

36. This is an OP about Joes looks ... "younger than both Sanders and Rump"

I don't care about how much work any public figure has done. I

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

37. What's the evidence he's had "work done"?

Maybe he looks younger than Sanders and Trump because different people show their age in different ways and at different stages. Trump shows his age because he has a horrible diet and gets no exercise, plus he's a mean bastard and it shows on his face. Bernie shows his age because he scowls and yells all the time. Maybe Biden had a face-lift. So what if he did, but do you know that's a fact?

[crazytown]

39. Look at something from 2007/08

if you wish. https://www.democraticunderground.com/1287277066

I don't care if public figures have work done .... but if you are going to have an OP on ageism, asking who looks younger than who is not a good start.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

47. Oh come on. The hair plugs are beyond obvious (have been for 20 years). As are the veneers.

Source: my lying eyes.

[Thekaspervote]

53. Your point regarding the bigger picture of defeating the squatter in the WH?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

57. And if he did, so what?

Why is it bad for people to want to look better? If any candidate wants a facelift or whatever they should go for it. Bernie could certainly use some scowl-remover treatment.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

60. I don't care what he did. But you were asking for proof.

And I’m not the one who started a thread on hairlines and teeth. Take it up with them.

[stonecutter357]

49. lol Elizabeth Warren was an R ......

[crazytown]

56. Post an OP about ageism.

best not to start off with "Biden looks younger than both Sanders and Rump". A bit ageist don't you think, getting into a pissing match about who looks younger?

[Joe941]

52. Bernie is aging very well.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

59. He's always looked old, so that helps.

[KPN]

58. Yes. It's pretty obvious to me and I've heard several other folks -- all of whom

like him -- actually say that he's had some plastic work done. But that's not really relevant to whether he can do the job and do it well. I do think age is a consideration. Of the current field, I think Joe and Bernie are at the upper limit already. If either of them win the nomination, I hope they select a running mate that I and many other voters will feel really good about.

[Bradical79]

26. Bernie hasn't aged much

He's looked 80 for decades now.

[The empressof all]

40. Let me preface this with the fact that I am old....

I also have a great deal of respect for Joe Biden and I will happily mark my ballot for him if he is the candidate next November. I think the ageism concerns are valid but also stem from the fact that Joe has just been around for a long time and his Platform doesn't ring with fresh ideas. Most people who aren't politically minded see someone who has been around WA for a long time, which is a double edged sword. He's an old school Politician and frankly, his story telling feels recycled from all his past campaigns. Let's face it the gaffes have been around a long time. They weren't helpful then and they aren't helpful now. The plastic surgery talk will continue and although many of us will not care, there are many that will see it as desperate and disingenuous.

We are still early in the election cycle. Most folks out there really aren't paying close attention. I think his polling is a little skewed as he is a familiar name and people will usually go with what they know- until they know more. That's why we will continue to see Warren surge over the next few months.

[Gothmog]

46. Joe is in great shape

I saw him do a three hour fundraiser on Friday. The man looks great and gave a great speech

[stonecutter357]

50. K&R

[Kurt V.]

55. looks define a person.

[jcgoldie]

68. I do not care how any of them look

I do care about putting a candidate on stage with Trump who seems to be grasping perpetually for coherent points and then spews whatever he gets a hold of like a stream of consciousness.