On M4A, I'd rather that be my starting point in the long fight than...

[LAS14]

.... just improve Obamacare. You never land where you aimed for in politics.

[GreenPartyVoter]

1. So true!

[qazplm135]

2. nothing passes if we don't win the Senate

if we do win the Senate MFA isn't passing. You only need one or two to vote against, and that will happen.
I don't even think MFA passes the House to be honest.

So, your starting point is going to be "improve the ACA."

And your end point is probably a public option of some sort.

Anything else is just talk.

[Bettie]

5. So, don't even try

for anything, because...no.

[qazplm135]

7. a public option

is trying for something.

Just a few years ago, everyone was upset that we didn't get it.

Now, it's nothing?

[Bettie]

9. If that is the starting point

then it is dead on arrival. Everything gets scaled back, you said so yourself.

So, what you suggest is that we put on a show of trying to get something to happen, then sigh when it doesn't happen, but CHA CHING! Lots of money from the insurance and pharma industries for those who play ball!

Oh, except that the Texas case may very well end the ACA. It is working its way through the courts and the entire thing will likely be ruled unconstitutional by our lovely far-right SCOTUS.

[qazplm135]

11. no I didn't say that

I said that MFA won't work.

There's a clear majority for the public option already.

It would pass rather easily with just Democratic support.

You can complain about industries all you want, that's not going to change the reality.

MFA isn't going to pass. It's not. So we can waste time trying to make it pass, or we can get to work passing something that will help a lot of folks.

A public option means poor and middle class folks get medicare! Every single one of them, if they want it.
If others want to stay on their insurance, that's fine.

Of course the REALITY of the public option is that the insurance companies won't be able to compete, and they will die off rather quickly and then guess what you have? MFA.

but sure, go ahead and waste time trying for MFA, and when it doesn't happen, get ready for the public option, and get what you want just a few years more slowly.

[Bettie]

12. "Everyone" also said that

Social Security was a pipe dream...never gonna happen.

Same for Medicaid, Medicare.

Guess we're supposed to be the party of very small ideas now, only ideas that the other side might accept if we beg hard enough.

[qazplm135]

18. no, they didn't

there was plenty of Democratic support for those things at the time they passed.

People were looking at how to address those issues from the onset of the Great Depression.

The history of the Social Security Act is pretty easy to see on the interwebs.

This whole big ideas stuff is silliness...it's just a way to shut down discussion by effectively calling those who don't agree with you cowards.

Public Option has nothing to do with begging, it could pass fairly easy, it would help TENS of millions of people, and it would be a proof of concept that made the public more amenable to the eventuality of some version of single payer.

It's not REMOTELY a "very small idea." It's literally the last step on the road to single payer and a large step from where we were before the ACA.

We gotta have it all or it sucks is not an example of big ideas, it's an example of absolutism and making the perfect the enemy of the good.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

19. Well said

[emmaverybo]

6. Hard truths. But whatever can get us to universal in as fast a time as possible.

[Thekaspervote]

13. Agree!! Another hard truth... 32 trillion is the CBO figure for mfa. Taxes will go up!!

[OldRed2450]

8. You are 100% correct and...

any other talking point is deceptive.

[Turin_C3PO]

14. True.

I believe we should eventually have a single-payer system but we need to do it in steps. A public option is a great first step. Let people see that government insurance isn’t the devil.

[PDittie]

3. Absolutely

[Modern Fictions]

4. Republicans Push The Extreme To Define The Center

The center has moved radically more conservative going back to the Bush-Cheney era, but really back to the Reagan era.

Democrats never seem to learn that glaringly obvious lesson.

[comradebillyboy]

15. Isn't "no middle ground" Bernie's slogan?

[Blistering Sun]

16. Not if running on MFA costs us the White House and the Senate.

"Not landing where you aimed for" would take on a whole new level of meaning were it to lead to the re-election of Donald Trump and a continuing Republican majority in the Senate.

We should aim at a target we can hit. And one that puts Democrats back in power.

[dgauss]

17. Reading threads like this I almost start to believe that the fastest way to M4A

is to not fight for it. Luckily I always snap out of it.

[Blue_true]

20. Similar view here.

Opponents are not going to have giving up a lot of ground as a contingency if they know that you are willing to take limited gains out of the gate.

I am not comfortable with MFA or even the proposals around "free" college, but I am ok with using both as our starting point in the negotiations that must happen.

[Drunken Irishman]

21. The next president is likely going to get one shot at it...

You're right that you never land where you aim in politics but unless you put up a token effort of support for M4A, knowing full well you won't advance it in all reality, then that's that. There won't be a second act. If M4A goes to the floor for a vote, and fails, that's the game.

This is why the idea of pushing M4A is silly, or woefully ignorant of history.

Ask Jimmy Carter or Bill Clinton how they were able to rebound and push a second healthcare bill after theirs failed.

Obamacare passed because Obama didn't spend all his political clout on fighting for something he knew didn't have the votes.

[Hortensis]

22. We need to worry whether we'll still have a vote

and thus the ability to have any national healthcare system at all or the civil rights we foolishly imagine can't be taken away.

Still imagining at this point that this election is about which healthcare system we should have is to be incredibly blind. Head out of the sand. Please. It really can happen here and is. Waiting to get shot in the butt will be too late.

"When we're dancing w/the angels the question will be asked, 'in 2019 what did we do to make sure we kept our democracy?" - Elijah Cummings

[dansolo]

23. But there is no middle ground

M4A, by it's very nature, is an all or nothing proposition. You can't peel back parts of it to compromise.

[brooklynite]

24. You need to get elected before you start negotiations...