Just saw that clip of Andrew Yang saying we had interfered with other countries' elections.

[pnwmom]

That disturbed me. I liked Amy's response -- that it was wrong to make a moral equivalence between what Russia did in our election and anything we've done.

Rachel just questioned him about this, and asked him to give a specific example, and he couldn't answer.

[Pachamama]

1. He had no answer and he totally evaded and clearly could not answer and had no example to give

"in our hemisphere" "well documented"....

Really Andrew Yang?

For me - in that moment and some other answers he gave earlier about what to do about Syria and Afghanistan, showed he has no fucking clue about International Policies and background in Foreign Affairs. And he clearly has not bothered to seek out advice and learn a little before running for President.

[pnwmom]

3. Yeah, it seemed like he was just winging it, because he made the comment in the debate

based on nothing more than opinions held by him and his pals.

[FreeState]

4. Yep - uninformed at worst

forgetful at best, that disqualifying for me.

[brush]

56. Maybe just reluctant to see the end of his campaign right there if he had...

went into any detail of our country's century of corporate imperialism in South and Central America. Rachel has to know some of this history and to me she seemed to be baiting him into something. I didn't like that. She's supposed to be on our side.

Klobuchar was right in fact checking him on the Russian false equivalency thing. He should've been wise enough not to go there like he was in not citing the many examples of the blood on our hands in this hemisphere.

See Stephen Kinzer's book: 'Overthrow: America's Century of Regime Change From Hawaii to Iraq...
https://www.nytimes.com › 2006/05/02 › books
May 2, 2006 - In "Overthrow" he surveys all 14 cases in an admirably written page-turner. wen

[Kind of Blue]

83. +1000 Well said.

Thanks for the link.

[brush]

85. You're welcome. The book is informative and a good read. You can put it down...

and come back to it.

[Scotch-Irish]

153. Thank you! Plus we intervened in Chile, Venezuela and Nicaragua.

Yang knew this, and he just realized he shouldn't have gone there. He was taking it for granted that Democrats are more well-informed than he found out at the debate.

[Cha]

25. Wow.. who does he think he is..

Gabbard?

What a terrible thing to say at the debate especially since he had no clue what he was talking about.

Who was he reaching out to with that irrelevant pot shot?

Mahalo, Pachamama!

[Pachamama]

30. Gabbard had the "Regime Change" covered....

Guess he got to throw in "We do it too" comment on election interference....

Both Gabbard and Yang's expiration dates are past due in my opinion...

Yang had initially said some things I thought were interesting, especially on Universal Basic Income and the reasoning behind it, especially in future economies driven by automation.

But his comment in the debate and then inability to answer and back up his comments show he is not ready for primetime. As I mentioned above, it was also his answer to Rachel Maddow about Syria and Afghanistan that shows he really has no idea of what to do in the Middle East and foreign affairs and hasn't even taken the time to study it.

We have already seen what happens when you have a "business person" with no experience in governing or foreign affairs make it to the Oval Office.

Mahalo, Cha!!!

[Cha]

33. Thank you for that!

I have to catch a bus now.. I will reply more when I get back!

Pachamama!

[Cha]

73. I've read he and Gabbard are

good friends.. no wonder.

He's only giving trump cover.. the Democratic House thanks him for his pot shots.

Yes, the game show host who specialized in going bankrupt and got the help of a foreign government to get him into the WH.. and is now on his way to burning down the Planet.. that's really like.. "..we do it, too..

Afromania says it best!

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1287&pid=314303

Pachamama!

[pangaia]

31. Yang was absolutely right.. and he SHOULD have had an answer.........

[Turin_C3PO]

58. If he had answered honestly

it would be an instant campaign killer. People aren’t in the mood to hear about our past transgressions while Russia is openly engaging in cyberwarfare against the USA and Europe.

[Pachamama]

139. Then it could be argued that it was a pretty stupid move to repeat Trump talking pats of

...”everyone does it - so do we”....



For me what was worse was his comment about what he would do in Syria and Afghanistan was ridiculous and showed that he had no clue about foreign policy and no interest in studying and getting guided and educated on policy.

[pangaia]

141. Well, you're certainly right about that.

[Turin_C3PO]

143. We've done a lot of bad things to a lot of countries.

But I don’t see the advantage of bringing it up at this point in time. When we get a Democrat in office, we can pressure them to make ethical foreign policy decisions. But first we have to overcome Republican cheating and Russian interference.

[brush]

38. They are pretty well documented. See post 37.

[Cartaphelius]

137. It is well documented

all you need do is utilize your google machine.

In our hemisphere focus on South America

In Asia, look at Iran and Vietnam

There are more, of course, generally CIA operations.


To speak of them aloud would end any political ambitions immediately.

[at140]

152. I do recall from years ago CIA had helped remove

Head of state Mussadegh of Iran. That was way back in 1950's IMMSMR.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

2. I was *very* unimpressed with his answer to Rachel's question about that.

He dodged and weaved and never could come up with an example of US interference in other countries' elections. Maybe he was talking about the Contras, but if that's what he meant he should have said so. I have not been impressed with him in general - he's an amateur - and I don't understand why he has as much support as he does.

[Pachamama]

11. $1000 promise

Brings a lot of support

[brush]

39. We have meddled in this hemisphere for decades. See post 37.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

41. Yes, but Yang could have said so instead of dodging the question.

Instead, he just looked evasive and uninformed. If you're going to say something like that you should be able to back it up with specifics.

[brush]

53. That would've been the end of his campaign right there.

Last edited Fri Oct 18, 2019, 02:08 AM - Edit history (1)

He was wrong in the false equivalency of Russia's meddling and ours, as if Putin would ever lose an election if someone meddled.

We have meddled many times though.

See Stephen Kinzer's book: 'Overthrow: America's Century of Regime Change From Hawaii to Iraq...
https://www.nytimes.com › 2006/05/02 › books
May 2, 2006 - In "Overthrow" he surveys all 14 cases in an admirably written page-turner.

Rachel knows much of this history and IMO she was disingenuous in baiting him into citing the many instances of corporate imperialism this country has been involved in for over a century in this hemisphere, the most recent example being just last year in Venezuela. Yang was wise enough to just mention something about "this hemisphere", and he wasn't kidding. Blood is all over our hands on this.

[brush]

55. To call out our corporate imperialism in any detail would've been the end of...

of his campaign. Rachel seemed to be baiting him into it too. I was disappointed in her as she has to know the history of this country's imperialism in this hemisphere.

Klobuchar was right in the false equivalency fact check though. He never should've went there.

[pangaia]

142. your comments here are all very good....

I'm not so good at expressing what I want to say.. not 'quick on the draw.'

I tend to learn history, details.. then... later.. forget the details but CERTAINLY retain the basic outlines, basic facts...... which makes it hard for me to make good detailed arguments.....,

[brush]

144. Your posts are on point too. Glad to see a few of us know some of the history of our...

meddling/involvement in the internal affairs of many countries in this hemisphere.

[wasupaloopa]

5. We interfered in South America when Reagan was President.

The people wanted land reform. We called them Communists and made sure the land reformists did not win elections.

We supplied weapons and possibly aided assassinations. Catholics called it revolution theology. Priests and nuns were killed.

[pnwmom]

7. Did we invade their elections systems? How is it we "made sure" they didn't win elections? n/t

[wasupaloopa]

14. We supplied the means for the opposition to threaten and kill people.

[brush]

49. Yes, we did all of that, even made sure strongmen got in who didn't hold...

elections, all so our corporations could exploit their natural resources.

See Stephen Kinzer's book: 'Overthrow: America's Century of Regime Change From Hawaii to Iraq...
https://www.nytimes.com › 2006/05/02 › books
May 2, 2006 - In "Overthrow" he surveys all 14 cases in an admirably written page-turner.

It's all in there. Yang didn't want to go there as it would've been the end of his campaign right there. All he would say is it has happened in this hemisphere and he wasn't kidding.

Rachel of course knows of this history. IMO she was being disingenuous in what seemed to me like an attempt to bait him into citing examples of our history of corporate imperialism. I was disappointed in her for that.

But Yang should never have went there on the false equivalency Klobuchar so rightly pointed out.

[dansolo]

112. Of course Rachel knows this history

Yang can't have it both ways. He either needs to be willing to confront our history honestly, or not bring it up. Either way, he was downplaying Russia's role in interfering in our elections, which is very disturbing. He is already sucking up to Putin by repeating his propoganda.

[KPN]

119. Not saying it isn't, but can you explain the

false equivalency? The example I am thinking of is Iran in 1953. Just trying to get a clear understanding. What seems different in the 2016 Russia interference case (as well as 2020/Ukraine) is the fact the tRump campaign participated in the interference or even initiated it (or thought he/they did); the now pResident actively undermined our democratic election via a foreign government.

[brush]

124. The false equivalency is that Yang inferred that both Russia and the US has...

interfered in other countries' elections over the years and we should both agree to stop it, as if Putin could ever lose one of those preordained elections in Russia even if we tried to interfere, while Russia did interfere in ours to help install, arguably, their own asset in the White House.

[KPN]

134. Thanks. I didn't see the debate or the

interview with Rachel. That makes better sense to me now — though Yang does nevertheless make a valid point. At the same time, criticizing our country is never a good look for a candidate.

[brush]

146. You are quite right. We have meddled for over century in order to exploit...

the natural resources for our corporations in many countries in this hemisphere.

And meddle is really a euphemism for coups, assassinations, occupations, wars and etc. we have engendered south of our border.

Yang was wise not to go there.

[elleng]

9. Right, and Yang knows it (as do others.)

[Pachamama]

13. So why didn't he say it then?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

19. Then that's what Yang should have said, instead of evading the question.

[elleng]

6. He CHOSE to not answer,

had examples in mind (from our hemisphere,) but decided to be diplomatic, imo; I have no problem with that.

[pnwmom]

8. How is it being "diplomatic" to make an unsubstantiated claim in a debate

and then refuse to substantiate it?

[Cha]

74. It's not.. imv.

[Karadeniz]

10. Maybe he didn't want to throw our mistakes in our face. He said, this hemisphere. Yikes!

Where haven't we meddled in central and south American politics, resulting in perfectly hideous dictators who imprisoned, tortured and killed opposition?

[pnwmom]

17. Or he was just shooting from the hip, spouting off stuff he assumed everyone agreed with.

Where have we broken into voting machines and registration lists in other countries?

[brush]

60. Try this. Corporate imperialism r us. Perhaps Yang didn't want to go there...

and end his campaign.

See Stephen Kinzer's book: 'Overthrow: America's Century of Regime Change From Hawaii to Iraq...
https://www.nytimes.com › 2006/05/02 › books
May 2, 2006 - In "Overthrow" he surveys all 14 cases in an admirably written page-turner.

[pangaia]

145. #1-He wasn't shooting from the hip.

#2-We wasn't " spouting off stuff he assumed everyone agreed with."

It doesn't matter what people agree with. The US abuse of other governments and peoples around the worlds is historical fact.

On the other hand, he probably never should have brought it up...during a campaign for president.. Too many Americans don;t like being told the truth about some things.

And yes, russians, saudis, chinese , republicans are actively engaged in the overthrow of the american government.

[brush]

59. And we've done it for over a century, and recently under trump we've stopped...

Last edited Fri Oct 18, 2019, 02:15 AM - Edit history (2)

the aid to many of these countries, and with that and now with drought and climate change, the people are leaving the land and cities and winding up on our southern border and in cages. It's not just trump who should be ashamed.

We stripped the countries for decades of their natural resources, their wealth.

It's all connected.

[gibraltar72]

12. Yeah that was disqualifying.

[pangaia]

15. The US has a long history or interfering in other's elections, for pete's sake!!...

and just basically interfering in other countries' affairs.

DUH!!

[pnwmom]

18. Not like what Russia did to us, with Trump's help. Where did we break into voting systems

and registration lists?

[pangaia]

20. Chile, Bolivia, Haiti, Italy, Japan, Philippines, Russia.................

[alwaysinasnit]

22. Thank you pangaia. Can I add Guatemala please?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_Guatemalan_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat

[pangaia]

26. LOL Why, of course, and quite a few others..

[alwaysinasnit]

27. You're so right. The list is too long, and those are only the ones we know of.

[KPN]

64. And how about Iran ... decades ago?

[alwaysinasnit]

66. Mohammad Mosaddegh, you're absolutely right.

[Buckeye_Democrat]

69. Yep. Operation Ajax.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat

The 1953 Iranian coup d'état, known in Iran as the 28 Mordad coup d'état, was the overthrow of the democratically elected Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh in favour of strengthening the monarchical rule of Mohammad Reza Pahlavi on 19 August 1953, orchestrated by the United States ( under the name TPAJAX Project or "Operation Ajax" ) and the United Kingdom ( under the name "Operation Boot" ). It was the first covert action of the United States to overthrow a foreign government during peacetime.

Let's also not forget Operation Northwoods in regard to Cuba.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

The proposals called for the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) or other U.S. government operatives to commit acts of terrorism against American civilians and military targets, blaming them on the Cuban government, and using it to justify a war against Cuba. The possibilities detailed in the document included the possible assassination of Cuban émigrés, sinking boats of Cuban refugees on the high seas, hijacking planes, blowing up a U.S. ship, and orchestrating violent terrorism in U.S. cities. The proposals were rejected by President John F. Kennedy.

[Capt. America]

23. Greece.

[pangaia]

28. just about everywhere, when it comes right down to it.

To say nothing of US military presence around the world...

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-number-of-US-military-bases-around-the-world

Sure puts a somewhat different picture on russian behavior, does it not....

[pnwmom]

98. No, it doesn't. You're suggesting a moral equivalence between Russia and the US.

Which is exactly what Trump has been trumpeting.

Everyone does it is his constant refrain. Why are you supporting that?

[KPN]

121. Seems to me the only difference is our now

so called pResident actively engaged in thwarting our democratic election in coordination with an adversarial foreign government. In that regard it may be a false equivalence, but otherwise no.

I didn’t see the debate exchange or the clip, but it does sound like Yang handled it poorly. Would it make a difference if he explained that he was just pointing out that we shouldn’t be surprised that other countries are interfering in our elections? Probably not. It was a mistake from the standpoint of public perception on his part. But it doesn’t make him wrong.

[pangaia]

140. May I suggest you study a little world history.

Last edited Fri Oct 18, 2019, 11:10 PM - Edit history (1)

And I don't mean to sound like a smart ass, but I believe you are focusing on one single detail of how countries (governments, is a better word word) , in this case the US and The Russian Federation, attack each other. And in continuing to focus on and beat that detail, you miss the full picture.

One doesn't have to ONLY, go to a local polling place in the dark of night and steal some pieces of paper with votes on them, or pre-program a computer before an election, or 'hack' into voting systems, that is just too simplistic. Murder, torture, military coups work just as well....
Or, as another example.. just look at the behavior of republican politicians....Their behavior is the intentional overthrow of the US government...!! I mean GERRYMANDERING ! What is that but stealing elections...

IF you were to read about and study the other examples I and others have offered you, you might see some of the horror that has been perpetrated on other peoples by the USA. Is this to say what Russia and other are doing is not wrong? Of course not. I, and others here, are simply pointing out facts. Every person. Every country contains good and bad, behaves well and poorly. The US is no exception.

And do NOT accuse me of spewing 'trump talking points' when I point this out. What he is blabbering about is inaccurate gobbledeegook, with that nice little 5% of truth to fool people into thinking he is telling some great truth. What I and others are saying is historical fact.

[KPN]

120. Blowback. nt

[Cha]

35. Do you have proof we hacked voting machines

in those countries?

[pangaia]

36. there are many ways to influence an 'election' besides hacking voting machines...

like, oh how about coup d'états !

[Cha]

67. It's not like the nominee colluded with

a foreign government to take over the USA and be an asset for foreign countries and let America go to ******* hell.. This is much worse

[melman]

76. You heard it here first folks!

Coups are not a big deal.

[Cha]

77. trump and putin taking over America & burning down the Planet

is.

[melman]

80. Read this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Chilean_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat#Casualties

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_disappearance#Chile

[Kind of Blue]

90. Amazing. And I'll throw in overthrows and assissnations of elected presidents, too.

No biggie. Wow

[ehrnst]

128. Find a sale on straw men to attack?

Boring...

[melman]

133. No

Lame.

[ehrnst]

135. Yes

Last edited Fri Oct 18, 2019, 12:19 PM - Edit history (1)

Boring.

Allowing someone to live in one's head rent-free is generous, but can really exhaust one.

[pnwmom]

47. Your evidence that we broke into elections systems?

[pangaia]

52. okay, one more shot at it..

There are, like I said, MANY WAYS, to affect an election.

I hate going to WIKI, but it's late and I'm tired.

1893: Kingdom of Hawaii
Hawaii in Oceania (-mini map -rivers).svg
Anti-monarchial elements, mostly Americans, in Hawaii, engineered the overthrow of the Kingdom of Hawaii. On January 17, 1893, the native monarch, Queen Lili'uokalani, was overthrown. Hawaii was initially reconstituted as an independent republic, but the ultimate goal of the action was the annexation of the islands to the United States, which was finally accomplished in 1898.

1916–1924: Dominican Republic
Dominican Republic in its region.svg
U.S. marines invaded the Dominican Republic and occupied it from 1916 to 1924, and this was preceded by US military interventions in 1903, 1904, and 1914. The US Navy installed its personnel in all key positions in government and controlled the Dominican army and police.[21] Within a couple of days, the constitutional president, Juan Isidro Jimenes, resigned.[22]

1941: Panama
The United States government used its contacts in the Panama National Guard, which the U.S. had earlier trained, to orchestrate a coup against the government of Panama in October 1941. The U.S. had requested that the government of Panama allow it to build over 130 new military installations inside and outside of the Panama Canal Zone, and the government of Panama refused this request at the price suggested by the U.S.[24] President Arnulfo Arias fled the country and Ricardo Adolfo de la Guardia Arango, the leader of the coup and a friend of the US government, became president.[25]

[Kind of Blue]

94. I'll add a few more in Africa. But speaking of the many ways

the 1962 arrest of Nelson Mandela came following a CIA tip-off.

Patrice Lumumba became the first prime minister of the newly-independent Congo in 1960, but he lasted just a few months in the job before he was overthrown and assassinated in January 1961.

In 2002, former colonial power Belgium admitted responsibility for its part in the killing, however, the US has never explained its role despite long-held suspicions.

US President Dwight D Eisenhower, concerned about communism, was worried about Congo following a similar path to Cuba.

According to a source quoted in Death in the Congo, a book about the assassination, President Eisenhower gave "an order for the assassination of Lumumba. There was no discussion; the [National Security Council] meeting simply moved on".

Ghana's first President Kwame Nkrumah was overthrown in a military coup in 1966 while he was out of the country.

He later suspected that the US had a role in his downfall and in a 1978 book, former CIA intelligence officer John Stockwell backed this theory up.

In Angola three competing groups fought for control after independence from Portugal in 1975, with the MPLA under Agostinho Neto taking over the capital Luanda.

Mr Stockwell, chief of CIA's covert operations in Angola in 1975, writes that Washington decided to oppose the MPLA, as it was seen as closer to the Soviet Union, and support the FNLA and Unita instead, even though all three had help from communist countries.

The CIA then helped secretly import weapons, including 30,000 rifles, through Kinshasa in neighbouring Zaire, now known as the Democratic Republic of Congo.

Hissene Habre failed in his attempt to take power by force in Chad in 1980.

But his efforts led President Goukouni Oueddei to call on help from the Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi, whose soldiers successfully beat back Habre's challenge and forced him into exile.

A proposed alliance between Libya and Chad began to unsettle the US especially as Gaddafi began to be seen as a supporter of anti-US activities.

In Foreign Policy magazine Michael Bronner writes that the CIA director, with the secretary of state, "coalesced around the idea of launching a covert war in partnership with Habre".

It is alleged that the US then backed Habre's overthrow of the president in 1982 and then supported him throughout his brutal rule.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-36303327

[Celerity]

106. Russia itself, 1996

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1287314117#post104

[Imperialism Inc.]

24. We've done much much worse than fiddling with registration lists.

We've literally overthrown legitimately elected leaders. Start with Iran. That's a pretty important one since we overthrew a democratically elected leader, and backed a tyrant whose overthrow pissed us off so much we are still mortal enemies with them.

Or how about a more recent one (that many on here would probably be fine with), helping the far-right opposition party in Venezuela. Through USAID we funded them to the tune $50 million. We also coordinated with them to get them to boycott the Constituent Assembly elections so they could later claim the elections were unfair. We funded the least popular opposition group whose leader would go on to declare himself president last year, despite that fact that literally 80%+ people in Venezuela have never even heard of him.

ETA: I realize most people on here hate Maduro, but that doesn't change the fact that it's meddling. Do some research on USAID and NED (National Endowment for Democracy). They do the kind of crap the CIA used to do directly back in the day.

[pangaia]

29. thank you....

this attitude in america that we are the pure 'white'( white, humm??) saviors of the world is... well, you know.....

[Imperialism Inc.]

34. It's what Trump is doing to us , ya know.

He said it so it must be very false. And, also, if you are anti-war you are a Russian agent. Not sure the left will ever recover.

[Turin_C3PO]

54. So how do you feel about Trump

abandoning our long-time allies, the Kurds?

[Imperialism Inc.]

57. Oh right... or a Trump supporter.

I think he made a stupid decision, probably in a huff, during a phone call. It happened because Trump is a clueless blowhard. The Kurds had made overtures about wanting to make a deal with Assad a year earlier when Trump withdrew the first 1000 troops. If he was going to pull out, the responsible thing to do would be to facilitate that, and ensure the ISIL prisoners were going to be kept in custody. Not a pleasant option to be sure, since Assad is despicable, but if you are pulling out that's the only thing that makes sense.

As far as should he have pulled out, I don't have a problem with it. I mean, what are we going to do, occupy Syria until the end of time? The hope that Assad was going to be overthrown ended a long time ago. Eventually the Kurds were going to need to make a deal with the country they live in, and so we should have facilitated it.

ETA: By the way, no one should buy into Trump being anti-war. He sent yet more troops to assist Prince Bone-saw in Saudi Arabia and they have been (soft) pushing for starting a war with Iran, imo.

[Judi Lynn]

92. Undoubtedly some cagey trouble maker made sure Trump said that just to throw a wrench into the works

Clearly anyone aware of his behavior understands he is EXACTLY the kind of person who adores the idea of really, really ####ing with any and everyone in his road, and he has NO qualms of any kind which would cause him to find fault with the history of what has been done for so long to remove people from offices from which they tried to protect their countrymen/women from the military/industrial complex which Dwight D. Eisenhower himself warned against in his farewell speech.

Clever, and determined to sew confusion, in some conspicuous manipulation of the incredible vicious fool in the White House, someone programmed him to make comments like that.

[sdfernando]

42. I didn't see this show today

But from what I have read and seen I have to disagree that it isn’t morally equivalent. My question is why is it not? Because it happened to us and not some backwater 3rd work country???? Doesn’t matter what country it is, we should not be violating their sovereignty.

The U.S. is no sainted and pure country. We’ve done a lot of despicable things.

[pangaia]

46. Yup....

American exceptionalism is.. well quite exceptional in itself.

[Cha]

75. No we haven't. Nothing is Worse than russia

helping trump into the WH and being their asset in burning down our allies and pumping up Dictators.. and now abandoning the KURDS.

All the blood spilled in fucking trump's name.. the babies and kid who were kidnapped and some died.

Ya'll are just giving more cover to trump.. so thanks for that

[brush]

78. Cha, you're in Hawaii. You know the history of white planters overthrowing...

the queen, right (and before that they probably had the king killed in SF where he went for medical treatment and soon died)?

There have been many things as bad or worse than the tragic crimes that helped put trump in the White House.

Here's a good place to start:

See Stephen Kinzer's book: 'Overthrow: America's Century of Regime Change From Hawaii to Iraq...
https://www.nytimes.com › 2006/05/02 › books
May 2, 2006 - In "Overthrow" he surveys all 14 cases in an admirably written page-turner.

[Cha]

81. Yes, I know we've done some terribly

bad things in our history. But, nothing as bad as trump.. it's world wide not just our country they're destroying with fascism.. and they sure as hell aren't through yet.

This involves an idiot in the WH with his gd itchy tiny digits on a Nuclear Bomb.

It's not just the crimes rigging trump into the WH I'm talking about.. it's what has come after that and is the ongoing result of that. The whole Planet is involved.

[brush]

84. You're right. The whole planet is in danger,not just the hemisphere as...

Yang hinted. But many here don't seem to know any of the history of the US's meddling all over the world. I don't think Yang wanted to go there and end his campaign right there.

[Cha]

86. Yeah, that's what it sounds like alright.. I just saw this..

Is It Legal For Trump To Turn Our Military Into Mercenaries?......

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100212595114#top

It's scary as hell.. I wish I were exaggerating or being hyperbolic.. but I don't even like to do that.

[Judi Lynn]

89. Under Eisenhower, the US overthrew Iran in 1953, followed by Guatemala, in 1954.

Last edited Fri Oct 18, 2019, 04:22 AM - Edit history (1)

Surely some of those who still don't know can take the time to read these Wikipedia reader's digest versions of what the heck happened:

1953 Iranian coup d'état
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat

1954 Guatemalan coup d'état
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_Guatemalan_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat

Thank you for being patient enough to try to get the idea through to some who have resisted learning that this Mom and Apple Pie country, after the nearly total genocide of millions of native people, got really organized in its systematic take-downs of ALL leaders who haven't put our business/military interests ahead of their own people's needs and well-being. It's not pretty, but they don't seem to have any idea that the winners of conflicts ALWAYS write the histories of what happened in ways that portray themselves as the aggrieved parties, the heroes, and the god-chosen winners.

A lot of people gave up trying to lead others to the light long ago, since they clearly are both ignorant and indifferent, don't know, don't care that they don't know.

It's possible some will still have some areas of questioning left open, and will start trying to look for the answers. If that happens, the answers will appear.

No going "home" to ignorance. Can't be done without a lobotomy.

[BeckyDem]

125. Exactly.

Resisted learning is a polite way to phrase it since the ignorance is stunning.

[pangaia]

147. Boy, that is well said...

As good as your 'science' posts.

[Bradshaw3]

45. So overthrowing elected leaders and training assassins is not as bad as that?

You truly think what Russia did is worse than the many thousands of innocent people who died thanks to American interventions around the world, from Iran and Central America to Vietnam? Most of it was done to benefit large American companies like Standard oil and Dole.

Good grief have you never read a true history of the CIA and what has been done in our name to Third World countries? Ever heard of the School of the Americas?

Here's just one example in Guatemala in 1954:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_Guatemalan_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat

I am astounded that on a site like this people are so ignorant of what the U.S. has perpetrated on other countries in the name of "freedom."

[pangaia]

48. boy, tell me about it...

[Decoy of Fenris]

79. Lots of tragically under-educated folks with really loud opinions chiming in, it seems.

The level of willful ignorance and cognitive dissonance should be disturbing, but it looks to be the norm of late. Anything to tear down a Dem candidate, it seems, even overlooking terrorism and genocide just to score political points. But it's okay, right? After all, those affected weren't 'real' people, they're just 'brown' and on the wrong side of the
planet.

Sickening.

[Judi Lynn]

87. It really puts people who are informed in an awkward spot, as they can't educate someone

who actually has no grasp whatsoever of what has been happening in US policy toward smaller, weaker countries all these very, VERY long years, going back to the 1800's. It has been a long, torturous history, whitewashed for citizens from grade school upwards. Only those who realize how little they actually know will bother to start investigating and looking for the truth through reading, asking questions, and starting that homework necessary to develop an accurate understanding beyond that of a totally ignorant child.

Thank you for your comment. Anyone who has bothered to wake up recognizes you're right.

[Kind of Blue]

91. Whoa! Breaking into voting systems and registrations lists. How about assassinations

and overthrowing elected leaders?

Just 4 examples in Africa https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-36303327

But I guess those aren't about the sanctity of voting systems and registration lists so they probably don't count

[Judi Lynn]

97. Would love to add this timeline of US interference throughout Latin America:

Deportations, Assassinations, and Dictator Nations: A Timeline of U.S. Intervention in Latin America
Carla Pineda

Daniel Medina
June 21, 2018

The documentary "Harvest of Empire," based on the book by journalist Juan González, explores the history of U.S. intervention in Latin America and how it has led to the immigration issues facing the U.S. today.

By using foreign lands and labor to expand American business, financing the overthrow of democratically elected leaders, or training the leaders of oppressive military leaders, the U.S. has contributed to the poverty and civil unrest that has fostered conflict and violence abroad. The film also shows how the U.S. has alternated between eras of mass deportation and eras of mass recruitment of immigrant labor, and different ways Latinos have helped shape the nation.

More:
https://www.kcet.org/shows/link-voices/deportations-assassinations-and-dictator-nations-a-timeline-of-us-intervention-in

Much more inclusive timeline:

Time Line of US-Latin American Relations
https://faculty.chass.ncsu.edu/slatta/hi216/hi453time.htm

United States involvement in regime change in Latin America
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change_in_Latin_America

Before Venezuela, US had long involvement in Latin America
By The Associated Press
January 25, 2019
https://www.apnews.com/2ded14659982426c9b2552827734be83

ETC.

So much ahead for those willing to start looking and reading.

There is so much available to people when they decide to buckle down and educate themselves, right?

Thank you for your comments.

[Kind of Blue]

115. Wow! Seeing the vastness of interference

in this OP is overwhelming. I'm cringing looking at the links but I thank you for them.
Time to buckle down again.

[brush]

127. Judi Lynn, thank you for this list on the extent of our corporate imperialism.

There's so much to learn on DU if you want to.

[we can do it]

16. Like most of his non answers.

[RockRaven]

21. Trump has said the same thing. Repeatedly.

We must ask ourselves why he would say this, yet be unwilling or unable to elaborate on the point. It is, at minimum, not a good look.

[Hoyt]

32. Yes, we have interfered in other countries elections, it was wrong, as is the

Ruskies and trump interfering in our elections. Hell, we’ve supported regime changes. Yang has a point. Still, trump is wrong.

[brush]

37. That was big mistake on his part. Klobuchar's response was on point.

Russia committed cyber warfare against our election. And for him to say we should reach an agreement with Russia to stop and we will stop, as if Putin would ever lose an election even if we meddled in their election. He never should have went there.

On Rachel's show though, you could see his reluctance in bringing up examples of our meddling in other countries' elections. All he would say is it has happened in our hemisphere, which is true. Venezuela being the most recent example.

We have of course been involved in coups, occupations, assassinations, wars and many other offenses in many countries in South and Central America over the last century, and Rachel knows that. I don't get why she was nudging him into cite such examples like Honduras, Cuba, Grenada, El Salvador, Nicaragua and on and on, all to take their natural resources for our corporations.

He was wise enough not to go there as that would've been the end of his campaign. Candidates have to be aware. There are many landmines out there, even from reporters who seem to be on our side.

[still_one]

40. Chili, Iran, Vietnam, etc, etc, etc

[pnwmom]

44. What did we do that was comparable to breaking into registration lists and election systems?

And which of this "foreign meddling" was done by R vs. D administrations?

[Bradshaw3]

50. Many things much worse than what Russia did

In Chili organizing the violent overthrow of a duly elected president, leading to a brutal dictatorship. Same thing in Vietnam, along with the Phoenix program assasinating leaders, along with numerous other untold atrocities. Same with Iran, installing a brutal, murderous dictator.

But meddling in OUR election and the (as yet unproven) rigging of an election was MUCH worse than all of that.

[Turin_C3PO]

51. Doesn't make what Putin and Russia did acceptable.

They’re an enemy to the United States engaging in cyberwarfare against us. So yeah, fuck Putin.

[Bradshaw3]

61. Who said it did?

The rationalizations on here are going beyond absurd. So yeah, fuck the truth, that will show em.

[still_one]

95. exactly

The list is pretty long. Look at Nicaragua in Central America, Invasion of Iraq based on a lie, the Gulf of Tonkin. All well documented

The orchestration of the 1953 overthrow of the elected government of Iran to place the Shah in power.

The denial or ignorance of history by some is just amazing to me

[Celerity]

122. +10000

[pnwmom]

62. For Trump to assist an enemy of the US to interfere in OUR election was close to treason.

It's not treason from the Russian's perspective -- because they have no loyalty to us. But what Trump did was close to it.

[Bradshaw3]

131. Your false equivalency attempts are awful

Is the best thing one can say.

What you're saying is that killing thousands of innocents, torturing, overthrowing duly elected governments, throwing opposition officials out of helicopters (the Phoenix program) is somehow on a par or not as bad as what trump did. That is morally reprehensible - period.

[still_one]

88. assasinations

[not_the_one]

43. I had a problem with him saying

that at this point we could not undo what was done to the kurds, so we just as well leave it alone.

I think that kicking our allies in the face is unacceptable. If we caused this to happen, we should do something about it.

But the turd has put us in a completely untenable position. He has, effectively, tied our hands behind our back. There is no way we can undo what has been given to Putin, without possibly starting WWIII.

And we may never regain the trust of our allies.

The turd has fucked us yet again, BIGLY.

[KPN]

63. And O always thought what Yang spoke about was common knowledge

I really don’t understand why we are so averse to admitting our own faults. How can we ever expect to truly be exceptional if we cannot do that?

[Buckeye_Democrat]

70. Some people are much more averse to information that makes them uncomfortable.

Republicans tend to be far more that way than Democrats, but that attitude is spread across a wide spectrum with some crossover.

Edit: To clarify, some people are more likely to reject or ignore truth if it adversely affects their pride or disturbs them emotionally.

[pnwmom]

72. Because Trump is using that very argument to justify his helping Russia attack the election.

It's the "everybody does it" response.

[pangaia]

148. For the same reason we can imagine the death of other people,

but can never imagine our own death.

[Afromania]

65. Has this country done some dirt? sure has.

The real problem with his comments imho is that the outcome of having a Manchurian president is the scale and scope of the thing. Having Russia enabling a man that is hell spent on letting the entire world burn to retain power is a problem. Having said inept, incompetent and insane man in charge of the most over-funded military with the most nuclear weapons on the planet is alarming as hell.

The attitude of let bygones be bygones in regards to this particular situation isn't even close to an appropriate response. If you want to debate the philosophical underpinnings of "we had it coming" or something in public. Feel free to do that 8, or 10, or 20 years down the line AFTER dealing with Russia in the present. I don't want to hear "let bygones be bygones" in regards to Russian election meddling from anybody wanting to be president in 2020.

[Cha]

68. EXACTLY, Afromania!

You got it.. anyone who says it's the same doesn't know what they're talking about.

[pnwmom]

71. Well said, Afromania. Thanks! n/t

[ecstatic]

126. +1000. He proved himself unfit for office

Is he better than trump? Of course, but I don't want to trade one clown for another.

If we want to make sure we NEVER find ourselves in a situation like what rethugs are in now, we have to be able to screen out people who lack the discretion and emotional intelligence that's necessary for the job.

[betsuni]

82. I'm putting this in the "both sides" folder.

Reagan and Bush Jr. administrations did major damage, illegal things. Carter, Clinton, and Obama administrations did regular government things. Sounds too much like an America Bad argument.

[Cha]

102. Mahalo, betsuni!

[NCLefty]

93. Here's the thing: We're still supposed to prevent it from happening to US.

N/T

[Kind of Blue]

96. Yes, agreed that is the thing. But let's establish facts first about whether

"it was wrong to make a moral equivalence between what Russia did in our election and anything we've done."
Paraphrasing Yang who's said a few times let's examine how we got here.

[pnwmom]

99. Our aim has been to promote democracy, and yes, especially under R administrations,

we've made some terrible mistakes.

But the Russian klepto-garchs have been stealing from their own people, and they're trying to install the same kind of dictator here.

Tell me which Democrats advocate anything like that.

[melman]

100. 'Our aim has been to promote democracy'

lol

[betsuni]

103. Democrats haven't tried to promote democracy?

Republicans obviously haven't. What evidence do you have that recent Democratic administrations haven't?

[melman]

105. FFS

What evidence do you have that "OUR" refers specifically to recent Democratic administrations.

[betsuni]

107. What?

[melman]

108. What?

Here's what. This discussion is about the history of US foreign policy. The "our" in that post obviously refers to the US.


You know this but you're trying to turn it into some kind of gotcha thing where you can accuse me of bashing Democrats.


It's lame, it's obvious and it's boring. And that is what.

[betsuni]

109. Oh, melman.

[melman]

117. Right

You can't refute what I say so you fall back on the usual mocking dismissal.

Boring.

[betsuni]

118. Oh, melman.

[Skidmore]

123. ......

[ehrnst]

129. lol.

Boring.

[melman]

132. lol

Beyond transparent.

[ehrnst]

136. lol

[Celerity]

104. The true irony is that we worked to install Yeltsin as President of Russia (this occurred during the

Clinton administration), to a second term (when he was failing badly in the polls) and that led to the cementing of the rise of the oligarchs and the culture of kleptocracy and ultimately to Putin himself (who Yeltsin appointed, first in 1998 to the head of the FSB (successor agency to the KGB) and then to acting Prime Minster in 1999.) The law of unintended consequences plays cruel tricks at times.


The U.S. Needs to Face Up to Its Long History of Election Meddling (The Atlantic Magazine)

Russian electoral interference has renewed the temptation for American leaders to do the same.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/07/the-us-has-a-long-history-of-election-meddling/565538/

snip

What many Russians, but few Americans, know is that 20 years before Russia tried to swing an American presidential election, America tried to swing a presidential election in Russia. The year was 1996. Boris Yeltsin was seeking a second term, and Bill Clinton desperately wanted to help. “I want this guy to win so bad,” he told Deputy Secretary of State Strobe Talbott, “it hurts.”

Clinton liked Yeltsin personally. He considered him Russia’s best hope for embracing democracy and capitalism. And he appreciated Yeltsin’s acquiescence during NATO’s march eastward, into the former Soviet bloc. Unfortunately for Clinton, ordinary Russians appreciated their leader far less. Yeltsin’s “shock-therapy” economic reforms had reduced the government’s safety net, and produced a spike in unemployment and inflation. Between 1990 and 1994, the average life expectancy among Russian men had dropped by an astonishing six years. When Yeltsin began his reelection campaign in January 1996, his approval rating stood at 6 percent, lower than Stalin’s.

So the Clinton administration sprang into action. It lobbied the International Monetary Fund to give Russia a $10 billion loan, some of which Yeltsin distributed to woo voters. Upon arriving in a given city, he often announced, “My pockets are full.” Three American political consultants—including Richard Dresner, a veteran of Clinton’s campaigns in Arkansas — went to work on Yeltsin’s reelection bid. Every week, Dresner sent the White House the Yeltsin campaign’s internal polling. And before traveling to meet Yeltsin in April, Clinton asked Dresner what he should say in Moscow to boost his buddy’s campaign.

It worked. In a stunning turnaround, Yeltsin—who had begun the campaign in last place — defeated his communist rival in the election’s final round by 13 percentage points. Talbott declared that “a number of international observers have judged this to be a free and fair election.” But Michael Meadowcroft, a Brit who led the election-observer team of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, later claimed there had been widespread voter fraud, which he had been pressured not to expose. In Chechnya, which international observers believe contained fewer than 500,000 adults, one million people voted, and Yeltsin—despite prosecuting a brutal war in the region—won exactly 70 percent. “They’d been bombed out of existence, and there they were all supposedly voting for Yeltsin,” exclaimed Meadowcroft. “It’s like what happens in Cameroon.” Thomas Graham, who served as the chief political analyst at the U.S. embassy in Moscow during the campaign, later conceded that Clinton officials knew the election wasn’t truly fair. “This was a classic case,” he admitted, “of the ends justifying the means.”

snip


It was openly hailed here in the US:

Time Magazine

July 15, 1996


http://content.time.com/time/covers/0,16641,19960715,00.html





“Yanks to the rescue”: Time’s not-so secret story of how Americans helped Yeltsin win 1996 presidential election

https://off-guardian.org/2018/02/19/yanks-to-the-rescue-times-not-so-secret-story-of-how-american-advisers-helped-yeltsin-win-the-1996-presidential-election/




Hollywood even made a 2003 movie with Jeff Goldblum about it:

Spinning Boris

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0324619/

Russian political elite hires American consultants to help with President Yeltsin's re-election campaign when his approval rating is down to single digits.

Director: Roger Spottiswoode

Writers: Yuri Zeltser, Grace Cary Bickley (as Cary Bickley)

Stars: Jeff Goldblum, Anthony LaPaglia, Liev Schreiber

[pangaia]

150. Whew.. thanks for taking the time.

The seemingly intentional ignorance of some, even sadly on our side, is sad...

[Kind of Blue]

111. I think you've brought up an incredible teaching moment in your OP

with many responses of irrefutable evidence to the contrary. So I'm not going to indulge in changing your OP from"that it was wrong to make a moral equivalence between what Russia did in our election and anything we've done" to "Russian klepto-garchs have been stealing from their own people, and they're trying to install the same kind of dictator here."

I think that we should acknowledge and be humbled by the "terrible mistakes" and not the but-but-but casual dismissal of how we got to a dictator wannabe after over 100 years of promoting brutal take downs for global control in the name of democracy, as if we haven't had virtually an unfettered path to plutocracy in our country.

[pangaia]

149. To quote Melman..

'Our aim has been to promote democracy'...

"lol"


And to add my own responses to your comments...

"Russian klepto-garchs have been stealing from their own people"

WTF do you think has been going on in the glorious ole US of A ??

"we've made some terrible mistakes."

believe me, mom, they were NOT mistakes. They were and ARE absolutely intentional !!

[Firestorm49]

101. We've been meddling in elections for many years.

South America was the CIA’s playground. We’ve put into power those who we felt would benefit us the most. It’s all one big game, but now that it affects our elections, it’s sinister.

[pnwmom]

113. The Japanese attacked us in Pearl Harbor. If some Americans had helped them attack us,

(as Trump helped Russia attack our election systems) would we say that's okay because we've attacked other countries in the past?

[pangaia]

151. HUH?

NOBODY, BUT NOBODY HAS SAID "IT IS OKAY !"

OKAY?


Your arguments are, I am sorry to say, extraordinarily simplistic.. and naive. which has surprised me because I have really enjoyed many of your comments and posts here over the years...

[Skidmore]

110. I view

Yang as the candidate of the tech corporations. I don't see him as "people friendly."

Essentially he gives "we're gonna replace your jobs with automation and give you $1K a month." Reductionist, to be sure but not a realistic candidate for the world we live in. There are many questions about getting from here to a A.I./Logan's Run dystopia.

Not a candidate for me at a time when we need a bit of humanism, a valuing of one another.

[blueinredohio]

114. I'm till undecided but after that response I know Yang is out of my decision.

[Mike Nelson]

116. I've generally liked Yang...

... but no more. Yang started well, but his gimmicks and this interview were all downers. Our general policy is to interfere on the side of Democracy. It's really American interests, which would work as an answer... when we "help" countries install dictators, it never seems to work. Putin believes Hillary interfered in his elections... she spoke about human rights. She never hacked Putin's google, tho... why is this so hard for people to explain?

[TidalWave46]

130. He should stick to being $1000 ant-automation guy. NT

[flamingdem]

138. We have been meddling FOREVER in our hemisphere

and I'm not mad that Yang didn't get into it since he'd be branded as a leftie and ruffle feathers.

I'm sure Bernie Sanders would agree!!!

Please research Chile, Guatemala, Nicaragua, El Salvador, etc. etc.

Not to mention CUBA.

[mathematic]

154. It's the "conventional wisdom" of bothsiderisms

It's a false equivalence unless you believe there is no moral difference between a liberal democracy (USA) or fascist state (Russia) or totalitarian communist state (USSR). There are PLENTY of people that believe this, so they reject the notion that it's a false equivalence. I think these people are horrible and should be nowhere near government service.