Manchin says he wouldn't back Sanders against Trump in presidential race

[melman]

Sen. Joe Manchin (D-W.Va.) said he would not back Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) in a 2020 presidential match-up against President Trump.

Manchin told Fox News he would “absolutely not” support Sanders’ agenda, calling it “not practical where I come from.”

When Fox News’s Neil Cavuto asked whom Manchin would vote for if the Vermont progressive ended up becoming the Democratic presidential nominee, Manchin responded, "Well, it wouldn’t be Bernie.”
Cavuto then pressed the West Virginia senator on if he’d vote for Trump.

Manchin declined to offer a specific response, stating: “Let’s just say I’m going to make decisions based on what’s best for my country and my state.”

Link to tweet

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/468278-manchin-says-he-wouldnt-back-sanders-against-trump-in-presidential-race

[Autumn]

1. That's okay. as long as you remember vote blue no matter who.

[guillaumeb]

5. But Manchin has that (D) behind his name. eom

[Autumn]

10. Well..

[Autumn]

58. Bernie won all 55 county's in Manchin's state. His excuse doesn't wash. nt

[guillaumeb]

60. And it is an excuse.

Manchin reminds me of my House Representative, Dan Lipinski, of the IL 3rd District.

"Problem solver Danny" voted against the ACA.

[Celerity]

102. Marie Newman will beat him this time.

Lipinski and Henry Cuellar are the ONLY 2 Democratic incumbents I completely support being primaried. I NEVER advocate primarying a Dem in a swing/red/pink /purple district, but those 2 are both in utterly safe blue districts. Cuellar is arguably the worst Democrat (he voted with Rump around 70% of the time in the last full congress and fundraises and campaigns RW Rethugs like Climate Change denier RWNJ John Carter, A rated by the NRA, is a bigot against LGBTQ rights, etc etc of so many more bad things) in Congress and Lipinski is in the top 5 or so.

That Illinois House race was the main one (probably the only one in 2018 as there was no viable primary opponent to Cuellar, but in 2020 there is) I was most disappointed in. Marie Newman, his opponent was one of the few challengers who had almost universal support across the board, across the broad ideological spectrum, from Emily's List (she was one of their super rare primary losses) to Bernie, from National Organization for Women to Indivisible and Planned Parenthood, from Illinois Federation of Teachers to the SEIU, from Gloria Steinem to NARAL, from MoveOn.org, from the Human Rights Campaign to the Daily Kos, from LPAC to a bunch of sitting congresspeople.

Newman was running against the pro-life, anti-immigrant (voted against the Dream Act and for Republican border security bills), anti Obamacare, anti LGBTQ (voted for DOMA and is openly against gay marriage), anti Obama himself (he refused to endorse him) anti stem cell research, etc etc Dan Lipinski.

It is as safe a district for us as is almost possible, as it has been in Democratic hands since the 1950's, other than for 2 years after the Nixon 1972 massive landslide.

Lipinski eeked out a victory mainly because around 1 million dollars came flooding in at the end from No Labels and other Lieberman affiliated centre right groups (many of them supported with Republican money as well as centrist Democratic money) that hammered and smeared Newman with a shit tonne of adverts and direct mailings, including his supporters outrageously calling her a holocaust denier (madness).



Bipartisan ‘No Labels’ group’s super PAC network revealed: mega Chicago donors

https://chicago.suntimes.com/2018/3/12/18316470/bipartisan-no-labels-group-s-super-pac-network-revealed-mega-chicago-donors

With a boost from Chicago-area mega donors, including White Sox and Bulls Chairman Jerry Reinsdorf, No Labels, a group advocating bipartisanship in Congress, has created a network of super PACs to influence the 2018 elections — but doesn’t want its fingerprints on the money.

One of the super PACs, United for Progress Inc., has spent $740,334 as of Sunday to bolster Rep. Dan Lipinski, D-Ill., in his March 20 Illinois Democratic primary battle with Marie Newman in the 3rd Congressional District. The names of the super PACS don’t link them to No Labels. A Sun-Times investigation determined super PACS related to No Labels include: United for Progress Inc.; Citizens for a Strong America Inc.; United Together; Govern or Go Home; and Forward, Not Back.

The Sun-Times inquiry included interviews with donors or their representatives and an examination of documents filed with the Federal Election Commission. United for Progress, Inc., is playing political hardball, attacking Newman in the commercials and direct mail pieces it paid for. Lipinski is part of a No Labels offshoot, the congressional “Problem Solvers Caucus.”

snip

THE ILLINOIS CONNECTIONS: Last year, a No Labels leader, former Sen. Joe Lieberman, was a draw at a meeting at the Chicago Club, 81 E. Van Buren. Lieberman was the 2000 Democratic vice presidential nominee who became an Independent senator from Connecticut.

snip



No Labels funds dishonest attacks against Marie Newman to boost Blue Dog Dan Lipinski

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/3/13/1748758/-Centrist-group-No-Labels-funds-dishonest-attacks-against-Marie-Newman-to-back-Blue-Dog-Dan-Lipinski

Well what do you know: It turns out the mysterious super PAC called United for Progress, which has spent at least $740,000 to help conservative Democratic Rep. Dan Lipinski in his primary against progressive challenger Marie Newman, received much of its funding from the aggressively centrist group No Labels and billionaire mega-donor Jerry Reinsdorf, who is chairman of both the Chicago White Sox and the Chicago Bulls. No Labels promotes the same sort of naive #bothsides mentality that plagues the world of cable news punditry, and even went so far as to moronically label Donald Trump a "problem solver" during his presidential campaign.

While support from No Labels itself should be a mark of shame for any Democrat running in a safely blue district like this one, the mailer they've been funding is even more disgraceful. It takes the guise of an ominous fake-but-official-looking letter from "Illinois Restaurant Enforcement" that claims the restaurant Newman once owned was guilty of health code violations, then proceeds to outright lie about the economic impact of the single-payer healthcare plan Newman supports.



One would expect to see Republicans launch these sorts of dishonest attacks against a progressive challenger, not those who support a nominal Democratic incumbent. And it's one more reason why Democrats in this 55-40 Clinton district can do a whole lot better than Dan Lipinski.

snip




Delusional Group Declares Donald Trump a ‘Problem Solver’

The only problem Trump could solve is that we don’t have a dumb enough president

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/delusional-group-declares-donald-trump-a-problem-solver-58107/

Here are some labels that apply to Donald Trump:

–Racist
–Egomaniac
–Bloviator
–Delusional
–Liar
–Asshole

On Monday, the nonpartisan group No Labels gave him a new, and hilarious, one: problem solver.

Six presidential candidates – Democrat Martin O’Malley and Republicans Ben Carson, Chris Christie, John Kasich, Rand Paul and Trump – signed the organization’s Problem Solver Promise, officially making them No Labels Problem Solvers. The group says it will bestow the label on any candidate who signs its meaningless pledge.

No Labels declined to make an exception for Trump – the candidate who has proposed, among many other things, building a giant border wall, deporting 11 million people, banning Muslims from entering the country and shutting down mosques. In just the last two days, he’s come out in favor of direct head-to-head collisions in the NFL and elephant torture.

snip



‘Holocaust Denier’ Smear Hits Tight Chicago Area Congressional Primary

https://forward.com/fast-forward/396658/holocaust-denier-smear-hits-tight-chicago-area-congressional-primary/

A heated Democratic congressional primary race in suburban Chicago has reached a new low, as accusations of Holocaust denial are falsely hurled at progressive challenger Marie Newman.

Newman, who is seeking to unseat the incumbent Dan Lipinski as the Democratic candidate for Illinois’ 3rd congressional district, has staked a liberal position, hoping it would convince Democrats to chose her way over that of Lipinski, a “blue dog” Democrat known for his more conservative views.

In recent days, Newman claimed, voters have been receiving text messages from activists with the Washington-based No Labels group, trying to convince voters not to support her. In one instance, a voter receiving the text message informed the sender that he has already decided to vote for Newman, not Lipinski. “His opponent is a Holocaust denier among other things,” the Lipinski supporter texted back. In a second exchange, the voter was told again about Newman: “Did you know she’s a Holocaust denier.”

Newman accused Lipinski of “playing politics with a tragedy in human history that cost the lives of millions—and which deeply affects those of Jewish heritage, including my husband and his family.” Lipinski is considered one of the few endangered Democratic incumbents in the nation due to the tight primary. The winner should easily beat a Republican challenger in the district that voted for Hillary Clinton over Donald Trump by a healthy 16% margin.

snip


Group Tied To Lipinski Says Marie Newman Is 'A Holocaust Denier'

IL-3 Democratic challenger Marie Newman claims group tied to Congressman Dan Lipinski is texting voters saying she's a 'Holocaust denier.'

https://patch.com/illinois/oaklawn/group-tied-lipinski-claims-she-s-holocaust-denier


LA GRANGE, IL -- Challenger Marie Newman is calling out Congressman Dan Lipinski for running a "dishonest machine-style campaign" after some of her supporters complained of receiving text messages stating that Newman is a "Holocaust denier." Newman and Lipinski are said to be in a statistical dead heat in the contentious Democratic primary in Illinois's 3rd Congressional District. Supporters said they began receiving the text messages this past weekend.

A woman who identifies herself as "Leslie Benjamini" from the Washington, D.C.-based No Labels group -- a political centrist organization comprised of Republicans, Democrats and Independents who aim to combat partisan dysfunction in politics by focusing on bipartisan problem solving -- texted a voter asking him if he planned to vote for Dan Lipinski in the March 20 Democratic primary. When the the receiver stated he is voting for Newman, Benjamini states that Lipinski's opponent is a Holocaust denier. Benjamini tells the receiver to look up "No Labels, a new group that is trying to get government working again." The message goes on to state that Lipinski is a "believer in this group."

"His opponent is a Holocaust denier among other things," the text goes on to say. "Please educate yourself before you vote. All I ask."

Lipinski does have an opponent who is a Holocaust denier who is running as the lone candidate in the Republican primary in Illinois' 3rd District, avowed neo-Nazi Art Jones of Lyons. In the second message sent to the Newman supporter, Benjamini mistakes the receiver's phone number for his mother's.

"For the second time I am NOT [NAME] … she is my mother and she hosted a fundraiser for Marie Newman. And for the record, I voted for her early Saturday [March 10]." "Thanks for voting," Benjamini texts back. "Did you know she's a Holocaust denier."

The No Labels group based in Washington, D.C., was founded in 2010. The group strives to "create a vibrant New Center that supports leaders who put country before party." No Labels inspired the Problem Solvers Caucus, a bipartisan group of congressional members that includes Lipinski. A Chicago Sun-Times investigation has also tied No Labels to such Super PACS as United for Progress Inc. As of late, United for Progress Inc. has been sent out a flurry of political hit pieces attacking Newman's progressive agenda, as well as TV and radio commercials

An angry Newman demanded an apology from Lipinski, accusing the congressman of running "dishonest machine campaign."


snip





‘No Labels’ Needs A Warning Label

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/opinion-no-labels-mark-pocan_n_5c06b110e4b0cd916fb0b042

I was duped.

When I was elected to Congress in 2012, I attended the Bipartisan Program for Newly Elected Members of Congress at Harvard University. I was so excited to be a member of a branch of government for the most awesome country on the planet. At the program, one of the presentations was from a group named No Labels. The organization put forward a proposal for governing that meant working across the aisle to solve problems and stopping the gridlock in Washington. I was excited! While I was a strong progressive in the Wisconsin Legislature, that was my governing approach. By working with people who do not always agree with you, you find out what you have in common and you can get good things done.

snip

However, things quickly went south. I attended a few meetings at the outset, but the rhetoric wasn’t about finding ways to get things done and breaking gridlock ― rather it was more about finding more centrist, more corporate and more special interest-focused things to do. Soon thereafter, No Labels became involved in elections with a closely contested U.S. Senate race in Colorado, backing Republican Cory Gardner over Democrat Mark Udall. That didn’t seem right. A group that wasn’t supposed to pick labels was doing exactly that: picking a label. When asked to join the Problem Solvers Caucus, members were never told that this would be part of the program.

snip

I drifted away from the organization, as apparently did most people who thought it was focused on trying to break through the gridlock in Washington. No Labels’ membership has dwindled steadily since 2015. Fast-forward to the past few weeks, when No Labels’ Problem Solvers Caucus tried to threaten Nancy Pelosi’s speakership. While No Labels was originally advertised as a group committed to getting things done and breaking gridlock, it now seems more focused on stopping Pelosi and providing a fast track for special interests and lobbyists.

Worse, this past week I’ve read a few articles regarding what No Labels has been up to in the last couple of years. First, the organization spent almost twice as much helping re-elect Republicans as it spent helping Democrats. Second, reporters reviewed email correspondence that showed No Labels contemplating a plan to attack Pelosi and use her leadership as a wedge to divide congressional Democrats. And third, it’s clear that No Labels never had any meaningful ultimatums or demands on rules for leadership during eight years of a Republican-led House, or over the last four years of a Republican-led Senate. No Labels only has challenges for Democratic leadership in the House, specifically, for our next speaker, Nancy Pelosi.

That sure seems like a label to me. Look, I get it. No Labels is slick, and I got duped. But no other current or newly elected member of Congress should fall for its shtick. No Labels is a centrist, corporate organization working against Democrats with dark, anonymous money to advance power for special interests. Period.

snip

[guillaumeb]

110. A number of us in the 3rd are actively working for Newman.

And with luck, and organizing, one hopes the progressive will win.

[OKNancy]

88. Bernie won Oklahoma too

The redder the state the more likely the Democrats lean very liberal. Except in the deep south where the AA vote is.

[question everything]

66. While Sanders does not

[guillaumeb]

67. True.

Meanwhile, Manchin hints he would not vote for the Democratic nominee if that nominee were to be named Sanders.

[LiberalLovinLug]

71. Yet Sanders votes with and for Democrats

He even held multiple rallies for Hillary after the deciding convention, where he endorsed her.

But still some here judge his character and worth based on what letter is in front of his name.

[Demsrule86]

98. And he votes with us way more than a GOP would and God willing he will be a warm body to

gain a majority...so we can actually do something.

[SterlingPound]

76. Vote Blue no matter who

but vote progressive in the Primaries

[Ferrets are Cool]

2. Is it against the rules to call him a SHITHEAD for not coming out and saying

that he would never vote for that orange criminal?

[KPN]

70. Lol.

I see what you did there!

[Ferrets are Cool]

74. ...

[guillaumeb]

3. Which begs the question of where exactly Manchin comes from.

So is Manchin suggesting that he would support perhaps the most unfit President, Trump, over the possible Democratic nominee?

[evertonfc]

4. I love Bernie

but I know a lot of people with that attitude unfortunately.

[Raven123]

6. Often it appears Manchin's main role is keeping a Senate seat blue

[comradebillyboy]

13. I'll settle for that in West Virginia though...

[theaocp]

7. In all seriousness, are we finally DONE with this guy?

What does it take? Dude won't support the Democratic candidate in a hypothetical against MF45? What the actual fuck?

[redstateblues]

22. I'd rather have a semi Democrat than the Marsha Blackburn I have

His vote in WVa is a drop in a red bucket

[LakeArenal]

28. My thoughts exactly.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

44. And he would rather have trump. So there's that....

[theaocp]

45. They both wouldn't support a hypothetical DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE

against MF45. That ain't a "drop". That's not a Democrat.

[redstateblues]

55. There are a lot of things he would vote with us on. Some blue staters don't get what red state

politics are like. Like I said, I'd rather have a Senator that votes with us most of the time, than a Senator that marches in lock step with Trump like Marsha Blackburn.

[theaocp]

63. What a lovely world it would be if Manchin would vote and just shut his mouth.

At best, this is a string of unforced errors that he makes over and over and over again. He said he'd not vote for the DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE AGAINST MF45. CRITICIZE THAT or step out of the way.

[SharonClark]

69. Agree 100%

[OKNancy]

89. Or Jim Inhofe !

James Lankford is pretty bad too

[BlueMTexpat]

8. Manchin needs his

head examined.

C'mon, WVA, certainly there is someone MUCH better than Manchin for that Dem Senate seat! Please!

[boomer_wv]

24. Lol

No, there isn't.

Without Manchin you can pencil in a Senator Justice (trump-lite) or Senator Morrisey (worse version of Ted Cruz).

Your choice.

[theaocp]

47. So is his choice to undercut a potential DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE ON FAUX

in favor of MF45. Replace him.

[boomer_wv]

108. Cut off

Your nose while you're at it.

Machin makes it possible that Schumer becomes majority leader. If his seat was red it would be almost impossible.

[Amishman]

107. WV is deep red, Manchin is as far left as you can go there

Maybe even further, as I'm not sure he could win without the incumbent advantage now.

Try anyone better than Manchin and you'll end up with another right wing nut job in the Senate

Amazing people still don't understand what a 50 state strategy really means

[George II]

9. He will never have to make that choice.

[melman]

12. Ah

So you have no problem with him refusing to say he won't vote for Trump?

[George II]

14. Double negative based on a hypothetical. He will never have to make that choice.

[melman]

15. lol

Okay. Can't say I'm shocked.

[pangaia]

34. you don;t know that,,,,,

Unless of curse he just doesn't vote at all,,, lol

[MrsCoffee]

106. There is no way Sanders will be the candidate is the point.

So yeah, He most likely will never have to make that choice.

[Stuy]

11. Bernie hired people who voted for Stein

And people whose vote for Hillary in is not a certainty.

[comradebillyboy]

16. The Bernie folks complaining about the lack of loyalty

to the Democratic party's candidate is really laughable given the crew that is at the top of his campaign organization.

[Amimnoch]

52. SOOOoooo this! -nt

[progressoid]

17. "Let's just say I'm going to make decisions based on what's going to get me re-elected"

There, fixed it for him.

[tiredtoo]

19. Manchin is probably the last "Dixiecrat" in government. EOM

[beastie boy]

20. The feeling is mutual. I would think twice before backing Manchin over Trump.

[Celerity]

21. Manchin is also endorsing and supporting Susan Collins for reelection, so he is a known situational

non-ally at times. He obviously does not buy into the 'vote Blue no matter who' meme. That said, he will get a pass as he is the best we can get in Rump-loving West Virginia.

In the last full congress he voted with Rump around 61% of the time, so it is hardly a surprise.


SENATE

HOUSE

[betsuni]

23. No matter how hard you try, Manchin does not represent Democrats.

He's just one guy.

[melman]

25. I didn't say he did

No matter how hard you try to make it seem like I did.

[betsuni]

27. I'll be you: "Who's Ibrahim? Who cares what a random person on Twitter says?"

[George II]

35. Another hypothetical.

[Celerity]

42. I think you are right on this point nt

[LanternWaste]

30. "lol Okay. Can't say I'm shocked."

[melman]

32. The old repeat my post back at me gag

Hilarious as always but makes zero sense in this context. Sorry.

[betsuni]

96. Your point?

[Cha]

101. ...

[betsuni]

105. LOL

[TidalWave46]

26. I don't see the issue. He won't be left with that shitty choice.

We know Sanders won't be on the ticket and I don't think Trump will be.

Many of Sanders top advisers held a similar view the last election.

[OldRed2450]

31. Are you saying Bernie's top staff did not vote for Hillary?

I did not know that. That's shameful.

[George II]

37. Nina Turner, Briahna Gray, and David Sirota all said they voted for Jill Stein.

[OldRed2450]

64. How does he expect democrats to vote for him?

[TidalWave46]

38. That is correct. Some even trashed Clinton in the run up to the election. NT

[George II]

43. Jane tweeted the day before or the morning of the election, "It doesn't matter who you vote for"

[NurseJackie]

50. That was a disgusting thing for her to do...

... Jane has "issues". I don't like her at all.

[comradebillyboy]

56. I completely agree with you on that person...

[OldRed2450]

65. My wife doesn't either.

My wife refuses to ever wear tye die shirts again after she saw how they look on her. Lol.

[NurseJackie]

68. LOL!

Thank you for that laugh!

Being a woman of a "certain size" myself, I know that it can sometimes be a challenge to find clothes that are comfortable and stylish (or at least professional-looking). But at this stage in her career, or her public life, or being the spouse of someone as high-profile as BS, she should know better. True, it's a learned skill, but it can be done. And I've heard that many politicians (and their spouses) have assistants who can help them to make better fashion choices. (That also includes hair and makeup.) I'm also an "Ivory Girl" (as the commercial used to say) and I don't wear heavy makeup... but I do know how to wear just enough makeup to look natural without looking like I just woke up and rolled out of bed. I guess it's just that I have higher standards for myself and I could never see myself choosing to wear oversized tiedye tshirts and mumus out in public (except maybe poolside, or at a family picnic).

[OldRed2450]

77. Exactly!

There is a big difference between looking clean and natural and disheveled.

[Cha]

97. Exactly. They all pushed for

voting jill stein in the 2016 General Election.

Link to tweet

Very Uncool.

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

And, that's just his press sec..

Here's Sirota's election eve smears against Hillary..

Link to tweet

sirota deleted over 20,000 tweets..

Link to tweet

[OldRed2450]

100. It looks like Bernie hires only loyalist

David Sirota and Briahnna Joy Gray obviously auditioned for their jobs in the same way Matt Whitaker and William Barr auditioned for theirs. That's the kind of white house he would likely have but instead of "deep state" bureaucrats they would likely be called "establishment," in my humble opinion.

[pangaia]

33. Just listening to that clip,, what a douchebag...

little tv smilie......

"Medicare is going to run out of $$ in 2026..."

Uu, ha ha ,, huh,, uh uh.. weave right and left....



This is the only time I have ever seen or heard this guy...

[Turin_C3PO]

36. Shameful asshole.

[YOHABLO]

39. The epitome of 'Democrat In Name Only' I wish a real Dem would challenge him.

[Nanjeanne]

40. He didn't endorse Obama over Romney either.

He is a pig.

[empedocles]

41. There is a lot to be learned from West Virginia here

[At a simple level we need that Senate vote].

[Celerity]

48. there is nothing to be learned from West Virginia (unless I am misreading what you meant)

Almost none of Sanders' far left agenda would get passed, even if we took back the Senate.

AND, far more importantly

Sanders would also do almost ZERO of the insane damage that a 2nd Trump term would. Especially SCOTUS (assuming we take back the Senate in 2020 and hold it or finally get it in 2022.)

Bernie isn't going to win the primaries anyway, so it is all moot..

Finally, Manchin will back-stab us multiple times over the coming years. He will probably not vote to convict in the Senate, even though he is not up for reelection for 5 years. He is a pure situational ally (and is supporting Collins, the Rethug, in ME), and will sell us out on many keys things. It is a shame he is the best we can do in WV but it appears he is. I am just under NO illusions he is an true ally.

[empedocles]

51. We pretty much agree. A fine point, Manchin's hard-up constituencies, do not want a 'true ally'.

- however, in this, and other cases, situational, potential allies, - we will have to make do with.

[Celerity]

57. I fully believe, that if the Senate, post 2020, were split 50/50, and a Dem POTUS

that Manchin doesn't like (and a VP as well), he might flip to the Rethugs, or go indie and caucus with them. He will look at it as a win-win, as he will see it as as making sure an agenda he disagrees with is quashed (and he votes FOR Rump SCOTUS noms already), AND he will see the 2022 Senate elections quite possibly going poorly for us (as our POTUS will get blame, look at 2010), especially if the economy really goes pear shaped, and thus he will still be in the majority post 2022.

I trust him as far as I can spit into a Highland gale.

[democrank]

46. If Democrats got serious about a Howard Dean 50-state solution

Progressives could gain strength in West Virginia. I remember the opioid town hall in that state moderated by Chris Hayes. The folks in the audience weren’t right wingers.

Joe Manchin doesn’t even have to try. He has his position locked up and probably thinks he will never have a Democratic opponent. No matter what he does, we nod. Manchin is a Lindsey Graham-style showboat, always ready to grin and play to the crowd on Fox News. Tell me....why in hell would any decent Democrat say they’re willing to vote for Donald Trump? Pussy-grabbing, child-caging, Constitution-trashing, lying, cheating, despicable Donald Trump.

We can do better than Manchin....a lot better.

[brooklynite]

53. I guessing the Republican who would replace him wouldn't support Sanders either...

[brooklynite]

54. I know incumbent House Members who think we could lose the House...

...if Sanders was the nominee.

[Autumn]

59. I know a few that think we can win it and more if Bernie is the nominee.nt

[redstateblues]

62. The urge for purism is great for blue staters-it doesn't really work for us red staters

When AA Harold Ford almost beat Corker, he was trashed by a lot of folks as being too conservative. He lost by 2 points. That's as close as we have come to winning a Senate seat.

[Act_of_Reparation]

78. Selection bias?

[brooklynite]

79. The selection was a grouping of first term incumbents...

...not candidates I selected personally.

[Act_of_Reparation]

81. I'm sure it was a very controlled encounter.

[Bartollo]

61. Joe Manchin...

poster boy for the infestation of right-wing maggots trying to overrun any forward progress of the Democratic Party in meeting the demands of the struggling victims of business as usual.

[NurseJackie]

72. He puts us closer to having the majority in the Senate. Without him...

He puts us closer to having the majority in the Senate. Without him, WV would elect a Republican and we'd then need to find TWO additional Democratic senators just to be where we are today.

He's not my favorite, but it is what it is. He gives us one more "warm body" toward our goal of taking control of the Senate... and I'm glad to have him over a full-fledged Republican any day.

[Celerity]

75. 'He puts us closer to having the majority in the Senate.'... No, in fact he is doing the opposite.

He is endorsing and will campaign for Susan Collins in Maine, a seat we vitally need to flip to have a decent chance to get to a 51-49 majority. He is not up for reelection for bloody 5 more years, so that makes his betrayal even worse.

also, as I stated in another reply....

I fully believe, that if the Senate, post 2020, were split 50/50, and a Dem POTUS that Manchin doesn't like, say Warren or Sanders, wins, he might then flip to the Rethugs, or go indie and caucus with them. He will look at it as a win-win, as he will see it as as making sure an agenda he disagrees with is quashed (and he votes FOR Rump SCOTUS noms already), AND he will see the 2022 Senate elections quite possibly going poorly for us (as our POTUS will get blame, look at 2010), especially if the economy really goes pear shaped, and thus he will still be in the majority post 2022.

I trust him as far as I can spit into a Highland gale.

[NurseJackie]

83. That makes zero mathematical sense.

Any "D" in our column puts us closer to having a majority. If you subtract his "D" and add an "R" to the other column, we have a net loss of TWO.

I don't know how much clearer I can be.

You don't have to trust him, you just have to be thankful that he's not a Republican and that he doesn't caucus with the Republicans. That's the best we can hope for out of West Virginia.

Take what you can get and be happy about it.

I am.

[Celerity]

90. your maths are off

I never started out by subtracting Manchin from the equation in terms of a priori making his seat a Rethug-held one

what I did say was:

IF Manchin somehow helps Collins win, that is one less flip we have

and THEN I said IF he also flips himself

that is a net 4 seat potential loss for us

I break it down in simple maths

lets say Collins loses and Manchin stays with US and we are sitting at a 51-49 majority (+2 in terms of seats)

now say Collins wins (so 50/50) and Manchin himself flips caucuses (I ONLY see that possibility (and I am NOT saying he does it for sure at all) if Warren or especially Bernie (but so unlikely Sanders wins shit) is POTUS)

Rethugs now hold a 51-49 majority (so +2 over us)

going from a +2 in our favour to a -2 against us

is a negative 4 net swing


Finally, a much more likely outcome (that is still disastrous)

Biden wins

BUT

Collins wins to give the Rethugs a 51-49 majority, and the cold hard fact is Manchin IS helping her chances to keep that damn seat

flip Collins and we would have had a 50-50 tie with Biden's VP breaking ties

Manchin is bad news overall (his only truly main redeeming quality is he caucuses with us, but even that can change), as his aiding Collins can cost us, and he also votes with Rump (61% of the time in the last full Congress) more than any other Democratic Senator, AND he votes for Rumps SCOTUS nominees, PLUS he is threat to flip caucuses, given a bad scenario

I DO appreciate the fact he is possibly the best we can get in WV, but he is a DINO far too often, especially on many of the giant issues

Hopefully we can get to a 52-48 majority, so Manchin and Sinema (the other Dem Senator who votes a lot with Rump) cannot bollocks us up very often

Also hopefully, Hickenlooper does not turn into Manchin/Sinema part 3, in which case we will need a 53-47 majority to be safe overall

[NurseJackie]

91. ...

I DO appreciate the fact he is possibly the best we can get in WV, but he is a DINO far too often, especially on many of the giant issues

I live in the real world, and I'm willing to accept the bad with the good. He's not ALL bad and the good we have from his being there will be difficult to replace/duplicate elsewhere.

That's why I say "I love Joe Manchin" and I'm glad he's one of ours... in spite of his faults... it's West Virginia and we need to keep that in mind.

[Celerity]

92. hopefully we can flush Rump and work to get what used to a massively Dem state

back into the flock and voting in their own best interest.

They are one of the poorest states, and they are crushed by Rethug agendas (totally gaslit that Rethugs will bring back King Coal.)

Rump has them mesmerised with bullshit, and unfortunately they do have a nasty racist and misogynist streak in many of the voters.

I personally will NEVER say

"I love Joe Manchin"

but I will tolerate him.

I also will go batshit if he ends up switching Parties (and hands the Rethugs a majority) or if another true nightmare happens, and Rump is reelected, and Manchin ends up being the deciding vote that replaces RGB and/or Breyer and/or even Sotomayor (bad, bad diabetes) with a RW SCOTUS Justice.

IF he does any of those things, his being in the Dem caucus meant NOTHING as he was never the make or break vote before on anything truly major and the damage ANY of those possibilities above (remote as they may be) will utterly obliterate anything positive he ever did for us.

IF Collins wins and his help was a true factor (it would probably have to be a really close race to be able to say definitively he made a substantive difference between her winning or losing) that is also really fucked up.

Finally, if he is the only Democrat in the Senate to vote to acquit Rump, that is also HORRID, as he instantly gives Rump yet another massive weapon to use and say it was all bullshit.

I also really worry what he will do IF (huge if) Warren wins the nomination (Bernie has zero chance.) He can do tremendous damage by taking a hostile stance. At that point, he can no longer be called an ally at all, regardless of your (or my) feelings about Warren. He would be working to help elect Rump again. I have not seen his feelings on Warren, only Bernie, so I cannot say what he would do.

Granted, all those things are speculative, but all are within the realm of possibility.

[NurseJackie]

93. ...

but I will tolerate him.

Me too... I'm just making a point.

[Celerity]

94. fairplay

[Bartollo]

82. Yawn...

control and power are useless in the hands of a paper tiger majority of big tent centrists and moderates dedicated to business as usual in one form or another. Time for changes. The quality of life of millions of struggling people depend on it.

Come senators, congressmen
Please heed the call
Don't stand in the doorway
Don't block up the hall
For he that gets hurt
Will be he who has stalled
The battle outside ragin'
Will soon shake your windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin

(Dylan)

[NurseJackie]

84. Oh, hello!

Nice sentiment, but I live in the real world.

[Bartollo]

85. The real world ?

Allow me to introduce you to the "real world" for millions.

https://www.povertyusa.org/facts

[NurseJackie]

86. I love Joe Manchin! You should too... be happy he's not a Republican.

I live in the real world.

[helpisontheway]

73. Shocking! NOT! He is basically a cowardly Republican that occasionally does the right thing. Nt

[NurseJackie]

87. I love Joe Manchin! You should too... be happy he's not a Republican.

You'll never see a Vermont-style politician in a West Virginia senate seat. This is the best we can hope for. I'm thankful to have him.

[Demsrule86]

99. Joe Manchin is a Democrat and in order to take the senate back we will need more red state Democrats

or we get nothing.

[bobbieinok]

80. Soooo---alleged traitor more acceptable than alleged socialist!?!

[ehrnst]

95. I find it interesting that some clutch their pearls when some Dems attack other Dems

but find it "refreshing" when other Dem candidates do.

[mike_c]

103. because his constituents don't need none of that new fangled health care

eom

[myohmy2]

104. joe who?

" Manchin told Fox News he would “absolutely not” support Sanders’ agenda, calling it “not practical where I come from.” "

...sorry you and the republicans feel that way, joe...

...by the way, where are you coming from?

...

[maximusveritas]

109. Not a Sanders fan, but this crosses the line.

You can say you don't support him in the primary or that he would make it hard for you to vote for him.
But to say outright you won't vote for him if he's the nominee shows you don't understand what is at stake here and the damage President Trump has been doing and would do even more in a 2nd term. Anyone would be better than him, even most Republicans