Bernie Sanders Wants a New NATO, Including Russia, to Fight ISIS - Still True?

[TomCADem]

It is amazing that even as all the controversy surround's Trump's cozy relationship with Putin, Bernie Sanders is not being called to task for his long history of pro-Russia votes (2017 Russian Sanctions, Magnitsky Act 2012). Prior to 2016, Bernie had long criticized U.S. funding for NATO as being wasteful, saying in 1997 "It is not the time to continue wasting tens of billions of dollars helping to defend Europe."

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/apr/19/bernie-s/sanders-oversimplifies-us-share-NATO/

As late as 2015, Bernie was pushing for a new NATO that included Russia. The question is why isn't Bernie being called out on his long history of Russia-friendly positions.

https://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2015/11/20/Bernie-Sanders-Wants-New-NATO-Including-Russia-Fight-ISIS

Days after Bernie Sanders (I-VT) linked climate change to the spread of terror groups like ISIS, the Democratic presidential contender has advanced another unconventional idea: that the U.S. put together a new international organization, similar to NATO but including Russia and Arab League countries, with a mission of defeating extremists.

“We must create an organization like NATO to confront the security threats of the 21st century — an organization that emphasizes cooperation and collaboration to defeat the rise of violent extremism and importantly, to address the root causes underlying these brutal acts,” he said Thursday in a speech at Georgetown University in Washington, D.C.

* * *
Sanders’ latest proposal might also draw some head-scratching. NATO was started in the early days of the Cold War and grew to become a major bulwark against the then-Soviet Union. The fate, and the very relevance, of the 28-member alliance has become a hotly debated topic in the face of Russia’s annexation of Crimea last year, its support for separatists in eastern Ukraine and its provocative actions around the globe, such as having military aircraft enter the airspace of several NATO member nations.

But others have echoed, in a way, Sanders’ call for a new coalition focused on ISIS. Russia riled the global security order in September when it deployed weapons and personnel to Syria prop up the Assad regime, though the Kremlin maintains its forces are there to battle ISIS. Moscow and Washington eventually worked out a way to carry out their disparate bombing campaigns, but questions about increased coordination have arisen after ISIS bombed a Russian airliner in Egypt. The French government, enraged over last week’s attacks, has launched waves of airstrikes on the ISIS stronghold of Raqqa in Syria and struck an agreement to work together with Moscow.

[sheshe2]

1. Thank you.

Truth.

[booley]

2. One of the reasons we have such poor relations with Russia is NATO

A detail we shouldn't' forget is NATO kept expanding even as the Soviet Union fell apart, making Russia feel as if they were being surrounded. (Which they were.) This was occurring even before Putin came to power. And this did a lot to form the relationship Russia has with the US today. Including helping put Putin in power. I think they call this blowback.

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-shifrinson-russia-us-nato-deal--20160530-snap-story.html

IF we had included Russia instead things might have turned out very differently. We will never know now. In any case, we should not act as if Sanders's statements were made in a vacuum.

Also not sure supporting the economic sanctions of Russia or condemning the annexation of Crimea counts as pro-Russia. We may have a difference of opinion there.

https://feelthebern.org/bernie-sanders-on-russia/

[TexasTowelie]

4. We didn't include Russia in NATO because Russia has never been our ally.

If we had included NATO, then the alliance would have collapsed and the doors would be open further for Russia to expand their influence into Western Europe.

We will never know now and I'm glad that we avoided that problem.

[booley]

6. russia was never our ally except for that one time of course

But I think you missed my point.

Russia is an enemy our foreign policy created.

Which if you think about it is true for probably 90% of the problems we face today.

[emmaverybo]

10. WE made Russia an enemy? Should a been nicer to Russia!?

[wnylib]

14. Say what?????

Russia is an enemy that our foreign policy created????

That implies that Russia was once our friend, or at least neutral. And that we pushed them into an enemy camp when the Soviet Union collapsed because we did not welcome them into the organization that was formed for defense against them.

Even in WWII Russia was not our friend. Ally of necessity, yes. Trusted friend? Hardly.

Soviet government was corrupt. Post Soviet government was unstable, not accustomed to democracy. Just as corrupt as the Soviets. Not a nation to embrace as bosom buddy.

An alliance between NATO, Russia, and some ME nations to defeat ISIS might work, as alliances with strange partners did work in WWII, but Russia is a long way from becoming the kind of nation we could trust as friendly beyond a careful alliance against a common enemy.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

15. Don't bother with this.

Bernie talked about a new nato like organization to team up with countries like Russia that are allies in fights against isis and other violent extremists - enemies we have in common.

The same people have been harping on this “omergod! He wants Russia to join nato!”

They know better. Don’t waste your time.

[TomCADem]

43. Are You On the Same Page as Booley

Booley is pointing out Bernie's views that NATO is behind the tension with Russia. Booley is also explaining Bernie's views that the our foreign policy made Russia hostile to the U.S. In other words, we were asking for it. You are saying that Bernie was not talking about NATO at all, rather he was talking about a separate parallel coalition. Those are two different positions.

[George II]

36. Russia is an enemy that THEIR foreign policy created, not ours. Remember Khrushchev....

....telling Richard Nixon at the kitchen debate - "We will bury you"?

[Cha]

37. russia is trying to destroy us through trump...

Quite blaming America for fucking Russia and their fucking dictator.. and civil rights abuses.

[still_one]

38. +++

[emmaverybo]

53. Bravo, Cha! You tell em!

[Happy Hoosier]

48. With all due respect... HOGWASH.

After the collapse of the Soviet , Russia had a brief moment of clarity. And then came Putin. Putin does not want a democratic Russia, nor does he particularly want good relations with the West. He wants to redominate the old Soviet empire. Putin does not oppose NATO because he thinks NATO is a threat to Russia, but because an expanding NATO defeats his plans for a new Russian empire, with him at its head.

Russia is our enemy because of Russia’s actions and wants. Not ours.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

51. NATO exists *because of* Russia (the Soviet Union).

The most important reason for its creation in the first place was to resist Soviet expansionism. Why on earth would NATO members want to let the fox into the chicken coop?

[NurseJackie]

52. It's not very smart, is it? It shows complete ignorance...

... of history and purpose.

[totodeinhere]

56. Russia has been our ally at least twice.

They were our ally during WWI until they pulled out of the war after the Bolshevik Revolution. And they were our ally in WWII in the form of the Soviet Union.

[TexasTowelie]

57. I didn't recall those instances in history and I stand corrected. Thanks.

The US also brokered the treaty (Treaty of Portsmouth) that ended the Russo-Japanese War and Theodore Roosevelt won the Nobel Peace Prize. I should have said that it had been decades since we were allies instead of using the word "never."

[TomCADem]

41. I think it is refreshing that a Bernie Supporter Acknowledges Bernie's Pro-Russia/Anti-NATO...

...views. I think you do a great of articulating Bernie's views. I just disagree with them. I also think these views are a large reason behind Russia interference in support of both Bernie and Tulsi, which is another reason why we should not support either Bernie or Tulsi.

Bernie's views are not merely abstract. He voted against the Magnitsky Act and the 2017 sanctions bill against Russia, which makes him the only Senator to do so.

[TexasTowelie]

3. So if some people are going to question Biden's wisdom over the IWR vote,

then it seems fair for other to question Bernie's wisdom on forming a coalition that includes a country that attacks American democracy.

[booley]

5. Not sure those two things are the same however.

Overthrowing a government based on lies and so destabilizing an entire region seems different from allying with a country that is problematic which is something we have always done and continue to do today.

I havent' seen anything to make me think Sanders doesn't' understand exactly what Russia is.

[TexasTowelie]

7. "I havent' seen anything to make me think Sanders doesn't' understand exactly what Russia is."

[betsuni]

8. Right?

[boomer_wv]

27. Nothing.

Nothing other than the past 50 years of his life.

[Tarheel_Dem]

11. SMH!

[Hav]

13. When you were talking about overthrowing a government

and destabilizing a region, you were talking about Russia's action in Ukraine, right?

[George II]

40. Sanders has a history of sticking up for Russia and Russians for some time...

One of only FOUR Senators to vote against the Magnitsky Act.
One of only TWO Senators to vote against Russia Sanctions.

In the process, he's the ONLY Senator to vote against both of them.

Plus, the ONLY Senator to fail to participate in the vote for sanctions against Oleg Deripaska.

Now this?

[thesquanderer]

21. One can form coalitions with different partners for different purposes. As we were allied in WW2.

Sanders wasn't suggesting that Russia join NATO. Sanders was suggesting the possibility of a NATO-like alliance to combat ISIS/terrorism. He was not proposing doing away with NATO or letting Russia into NATO. We have created numerous alliances with countries for addressing a common goal, despite other differences.

[TexasTowelie]

25. Keep in mind that Bernie made this proposal after Russia invaded the Crimea.

Cooperating with Russia at that time would have given Russia the message that it is okay to invade foreign countries, that the U.S. doesn't care about Ukraine, and that the U.S. will conduct business with Russia as if the invasion hadn't occurred. Is that the screwed up message that President Obama wanted to convey on behalf of the United States? The GOP would have thrown Obama and the Democrats under the bus for that one and they wouldn't have needed to help Trump to win the election.

[Cha]

9. KR!

Thanks Tom

[TomVilmer]

12. The official purpose of NATO...

Article 1
The Parties undertake, as set forth in the Charter of the United Nations, to settle any international dispute in which they may be involved by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security and justice are not endangered, and to refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force in any manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations.
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_17120.htm

[Mike Nelson]

16. I don't hear him talking...

... about these ideas much.

[Hortensis]

17. This would be insane. NATO exists to contain Russian imperialism,

and Russia is currently working hard on invading nearly 2 dozen nations on its borders, many of them in NATO. Russia has resumed the Cold War to destroy us so we can't stop them. Russia is trying to destroy NATO.

Sanders proposed the same giant gift to Putin's ambitions that 2016's winning candidate, Trump, has since been trying to pull off.

The ISIS excuse for allying with Russia is phony. ISIS was almost wiped out by existing larger alliances without severely damaging Europe's defense against Russia to do it.

Sanders' explanation for opposing sanctions on Russia didn't make sense either.

And, his Russia-supported splinter candidacy rationale that it didn't really matter which party won in 2016 because we're too much alike also didn't make sense. Only one party was strongly infiltrated by Russia, and only one of the two main candidates was Manchurian.

[thesquanderer]

22. Not insane. Sanders was not calling for Russia to join NATO.

Please see my post #21. (Also post #23.)

[Hortensis]

24. 2015 -- before feedback caused him to back off.

Let's not fool ourselves that replacing a NATO committed to containing Russia with a "new" NATO that included Russia and Arab nations would not have benefited Russia enormously and weakened Europe enormously.

To the point that judgment and motives have to be wondered at. ISIS is a pissant nothing compared to the enormous threats Russia poses. Taking out NATO by eliminating its overriding purpose is not needed to control ISIS, making ISIS a highly questionable excuse.

I have three grandsons approaching military age, and I have wondered all along. An extremely aggressive Russia let out of the box is the biggest promise of WWIII and institution of a draft that I can imagine. Unless, of course, Europe and the U.S. were so devastated by the new insidious Cold War tactics and destruction of NATO that we let Russia expand from China to western Europe without significant opposition.

[thesquanderer]

29. But he wasn't calling for Russia to join NATO, even in 2015.

Or were you talking about something else?

[Hortensis]

31. But, let's not play with words. nt

[thesquanderer]

34. What do you mean? (n/t)

[Celerity]

46. Russia has borders with 14 nations (including an 11 mile strip of NoKo)

Not almost 2 dozen.

Borders

Norway 195.8 km (121.7 mi)
Finland 1,271.8 km (790.3 mi)
Estonia 138 km (86 mi)
Latvia 270.5 km (168.1 mi)
Lithuania 266 km (165 mi)
Poland 204.1 km (126.8 mi)
Belarus 1,239 km (770 mi)
Ukraine 1,925.8 km (1,196.6 mi)
Georgia 875.5 km (544.0 mi)
Azerbaijan 372.6 km (231.5 mi)
Kazakhstan 7,512.8 km (4,668.2 mi)
Mongolia 3,485 km (2,165 mi)
China 4,209.3 km (2,615.5 mi)
North Korea 17 km (11 mi)

[Hortensis]

47. Putin wants to restore borders to the former Soviet Union --

and then some. As you'll recall, the SU included nations that do not border Russia itself. Long before the modern era, Russia considered regions around Russia itself as part of its defenses and wanted sovereignty over them, so this long and deeply embedded national conceit, part of its identity, was one of the factors behind Stalin's expansions. And now Putin's.

[NurseJackie]

50. Yes. It would be. Why would any sane person want such a thing?

[Hortensis]

54. WHY is a really good question. A "new" NATO with a NEW mission

that diverts to a pissant end-times terrorist group and includes Russia -- THIS while Russia begins its invasions in eastern Europe.

We have 3 grandsons who'll be military age within the next two presidential terms. The parents of two could probably buy them out of a draft, the Republicans are for sure corrupt enough to keep an escape for children of affluent voters. The third has dual Danish citizenship, but Denmark is already arming because of the threat of war with Russia.

We have to win this election. It's a little late for the people of VT to give more thought to what they send to the senate. Which reminds me that Sanders has already filed to run again in 2024; by then we could be in WWIII and he could be safely retired, cranking away about how the Democrats destroyed NATO.

[NurseJackie]

18. I could never trust Russia...

... but I think it may be a scenic place for a 2nd honeymoon.

[betsuni]

19. And a nice establishment status quo Russian sauna.

[Gothmog]

20. I am not sure if having Russia as part of this alliance is a good idea

[thesquanderer]

23. Remember this was 2015. In 2012, Obama laughed when Romney said Russia was adversary #1. nt

[TexasTowelie]

26. Link?

[thesquanderer]

28. video clip...

Okay, it wasn't a "laugh" per se, but he made fun of it, saying the 80s want their foreign policy back.

[comradebillyboy]

33. Turns out Mitt was right on that matter...

[TomCADem]

42. Dmitry Medvedev Was President of Russia, Not Putin

It is sort of like saying U.S foreign policy is the same under President Obama as it was under Trump.

[comradebillyboy]

44. Medvedev was Putin's puppet...

[TomCADem]

45. So Is Trump...

...But that does not quite make Putin President of the U.S. We are moving in that direction, but it is not quite the same.

[comradebillyboy]

49. Too true...

[ehrnst]

30. Good question. (nt)

[comradebillyboy]

32. Bernie seems overly fond of his Russian friends. It just

illustrates how bad his judgment is on foreign policy. Not trump level bad but much worse than any Democrat but Tulsi.

[TomVilmer]

35. The Times They Are a-Changin'

At one time there even was a road to a US partnership with Russia, inviting them to be a member of NATO:

At a NATO summit meeting in Brussels on 10-11 January 1994, President Clinton formally proclaimed the Partnership for Peace(PfP) proposal, which held out the prospect for NATO membership for Central Europe, the Baltic states, and the republics of the Former Soviet Union, including Russia.
On the occasion of President Clinton’s visit to Moscow in January 1994, Yeltsin strongly endorsed the PfP initiative. During the 24 May 2000 NATO-Russia Council meeting, a positive environment in relations was witnessed, with Putin’s answer to the question if Russia might become a member of NATO as “Why not?”.
https://www.nato.int/acad/fellow/98-00/tur.pdf

Since then a lot of other stuff happened, and Clinton's idea was not so promising anymore...

[TomCADem]

55. I Think There Is Difference Between Bernie Pushing a Putin Partnership...

...versus Bill Clinton trying to build ties with Boris Yeltsin following the democratic revolution in Russia. I think it a Russian talking point to suggest that there is no difference. It would be similar to arguing there is no difference between President Obama and Trump when it comes to diplomacy with Cuba or Iran.

[TomVilmer]

58. I was reacting to the lack of knowledge in most answers here...

... like others, who took good care of "Russia has never been our ally".

I think it a way cheap talking point to suggest that others are influenced/sympathetic to/paid for/ by Putin. If you would like a "talk", use better and more clean arguments, thanks!

Likewise, I do know and see the difference between opening up to Cuba and Iran, or expanding this as a military conflict.

For me the question is how this crazy world can survive, when big power chose brute force as a conflict resolution. And then: what to do different. Very much different.

[Me.]

39. You've Been On Fire Lately