Democratic Primaries
Related: About this forumRich kids should pay fees to attend public schools.
Last edited Sat Nov 30, 2019, 04:46 PM - Edit history (1)
Why should lower income families ever subsidize schooling for wealthy families?
The extra monies should be used to improve disadvantaged schools, and schooling overall.
EDIT: Why should lower/middle income families ever subsidize public college for wealthy families? That's the argument for something like Pete's proposals. I support fee free public education, no matter how wealthy the parents are. That's the point of this thread.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
mopinko
(70,097 posts)but the answer- that is how you build a more perfect union.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)to enroll their kids to private schools, and advocate for more tax money to go to private schools.
We could also tax and fund schools more at the state and federal level, so that schools in areas with low income populations would get more funding.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,334 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
JDC
(10,127 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
PJMcK
(22,035 posts)The fees are called local and state taxes.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
crazytown
(7,277 posts)Upfront fees for schools are like upfront fees for college. Like Pete wants the wealthy to pay.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Me.
(35,454 posts)and also, not make kids a target one way, poor, or the other, rich)
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
crazytown
(7,277 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Voltaire2
(13,027 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
crazytown
(7,277 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
mr_lebowski
(33,643 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Demsrule86
(68,556 posts)income requirements...wealthy parents paid for tutors and special programs to get their kids into Georgia Colleges and universities...poor and middle class often couldn't get in...tuition went up a great deal as well...and the wealthy kids invested in hopemobliles...cars bought with money from the Hope Scholarship money...the poor and the middle class paid for this and often couldn't sent their kids themselves...many sent their kids to Alabama in areas which treat some Georgia students as instate...you have to have income requirements. What happens if you don't is that the poor and middle class pay for the wealthy...and public education should be free through High School but our system is not set up to do this in colleges...I like Biden's plan to have community colleges for the first two years. If you implement free college, you will drive up the tuition prices enormously...it will be unsustainable in the long run.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Me.
(35,454 posts)is a good idea?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
crazytown
(7,277 posts)is a good idea? Like Pete's proposals do?
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Me.
(35,454 posts)Many on this thread have suggested dealing with this with tax equity which would leave any type of shaming for anyone.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
crazytown
(7,277 posts)whether we are talking about public schooling or college.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Me.
(35,454 posts)but there are always unintended consequences of any well-meaning discrimination. A fair tax proposal where everyone pays their fair share is a better way to pay for schools.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
crazytown
(7,277 posts)a better way to pay for public college.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Me.
(35,454 posts)I don't see why there would be an exemption. But that's a differeny propsal than sorting poor/rich.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Demsrule86
(68,556 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Me.
(35,454 posts)like denying a child lunch in a child filled cafeteria. Those who are poor don't have the tax liability the rich do. The tax system, if we can get it to work properly, would tax those who can. The poor already know they are, it needn't be a public statement such as it might come to be...my farther/mother pays more than yours does.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Demsrule86
(68,556 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Me.
(35,454 posts)and that is my objection
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Demsrule86
(68,556 posts)cost a fortune...and those who can least afford it will pay through the nose. You have to make whatever we do sustainable.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Me.
(35,454 posts)Anyone who wants/needs a breakfast/lunch can have one, no qualifications necessary.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,683 posts)In any event, public schools are funded mostly by local property taxes. Lower-income families pay less property tax so there is less money for the schools in low-income districts, but since rich kids don't go to public schools in low-income neighborhoods, low-income families are not subsidizing schooling for wealthy families. If rich kids go to public schools at all, they go to those in their own upper-income neighborhood, and those schools are funded by the higher property taxes paid by the upper-income residents of that district. Poor kids don't usually get to go to those well-funded schools.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
crazytown
(7,277 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,683 posts)they might be stuck with the shame of having to go to a public university, and some public universities are well-regarded enough that even rich people actually want to go to them. Many of the best graduate programs are at public universities. I totally agree that the higher educations of wealthy students should not be subsidized, though I'm all for free or subsidized college for those who couldn't afford to go otherwise. Public universities are not funded by property taxes anyhow, so the whole funding mechanism for them needs a different analysis vs. public K-12.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
crazytown
(7,277 posts)does not change the argument.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,683 posts)Maybe public schools should be funded by some means other than local property taxes.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
crazytown
(7,277 posts)Funding by local property taxes entrenches disadvantage.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Demsrule86
(68,556 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Journeyman
(15,031 posts)Please explain why I should not have paid taxes all those years to subsidize your child's education.
And furthermore, explain why I should not have opposed the two California state propositions introduced during those years that sought public money for my children's schools.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
mr_lebowski
(33,643 posts)regarding college funding.
A point which should, IMHO, have been made in the OP, to avoid people wasting their time making an entirely different counter-argument than they otherwise would have (or not have posted at all).
But to each their own ... I've been known to be oblique a time or two, so ...
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)our society long ago recognized the value of an educated citizenry. It is nice that you could afford private schooling for your children. Your contribution to society is still needed.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Journeyman
(15,031 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Voltaire2
(13,027 posts)The recipients are examined and monitored to make sure they are "worthy' of aid, and opportunistic politicians exploit the situation to pit us against each other.
Also the definition of 'wealthy' invariably becomes: everyone who isn't in dire poverty.
The reason why social security and medicare have survived for so long is that they are primarily not means tested.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
crazytown
(7,277 posts)Given that good jobs in the future will need a degree?
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Voltaire2
(13,027 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Response to crazytown (Original post)
YOHABLO This message was self-deleted by its author.
Demsrule86
(68,556 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,853 posts)Chances are the rich families are already paying property taxes which are the main source of funding for public schools.
I chose to send my sons to a secular private school and was sometimes rather unpopular whenever another parent would say they shouldn't have to pay school taxes. We all have a vested interest in good public schools. Just as those who don't currently have kids in the public school, or maybe never had kids at all, even they should pay school taxes.
But rich kids' families shouldn't have to pay twice.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
crazytown
(7,277 posts)The wealthy pay more State taxes. Why should kids' families have to pay twice?
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Demsrule86
(68,556 posts)rich have all sorts of schemes to avoid taxes.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
dsc
(52,161 posts)The vast majority of states have regressive taxation systems meaning the poor pay a greater percentage of their income in taxes than the rich do.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
crazytown
(7,277 posts)It is still a double hit.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
dsc
(52,161 posts)yes the wealthy, who have vastly more money, do pay more dollars in taxes but they pay vastly less as a percent of their income.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,683 posts)That "tuition" has already been paid through residents' property taxes. I think the real problem is that in low-income districts, where less property tax is paid, there's less money for the schools. There should be a more equitable way of funding the schools so low-income students can have access to public education that's as good as that offered by public schools in wealthier districts.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,853 posts)is that states have been systematically cutting their share of the funding for decades now. And I'm pretty sure that property taxes almost never go to funding secondary education, although there may be some states that do that. The education part of property taxes goes mainly to k-12 education, as I understand it. If I'm wrong, just let me know and I'm apologizing in advance for my ignorance.
That and the ludicrous costs of the football and basketball programs, and don't let anyone ever try to convince you that they somehow pay for themselves with alumni donations to the school. In fact, other than Princeton, the schools with the highest percentages of alumni giving are small liberal arts colleges.
In New Mexico, where the state lottery is intended to pay a substantial amount of tuition at the public universities, school administrators have simply raised tuition above and beyond the rate of inflation. Actually, almost every state has done the same (raising tuition far in excess of the rate of inflation) and it's not entirely clear why. Other than they can.
Several years ago I told my son that when I first started college (University of Arizona, fall of 1965) a summer job at minimum wage, provided you lived at home and saved most of the paycheck, would easily cover tuition and fees for the coming school year. Probably not room and board, but still. He round that incredibly difficult to believe. Granted, at the time the U of AZ was a relatively low cost school. We got a surprising number of students from New York State, because Arizona was a whole lot cheaper than any of the state schools there.
The overall paucity of funding for public education at all levels is disgraceful.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,683 posts)Some big universities make a lot of money from sports, although they also spend way too much on that. The football coach often gets paid more than the school president, which is disgusting. The costs at all colleges, public and private, have become insane.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
elleng
(130,895 posts)they are called TAXES.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
crazytown
(7,277 posts)It is the same argument.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
crazytown
(7,277 posts)apply equally to public schools and college. Getting a degree has become pretty necessary for a good job.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
LongtimeAZDem
(4,494 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
crazytown
(7,277 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
LongtimeAZDem
(4,494 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
crazytown
(7,277 posts)Post war, high school was enough.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
LongtimeAZDem
(4,494 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
crazytown
(7,277 posts)necessary to get a reasonable job. In the 50s this meant high school (including the last two years). Today that is not enough.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Demsrule86
(68,556 posts)States have cut and cut...
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,683 posts)They do not depend entirely on taxes like K-12 schools. They get money from tuition, grants, donations and various other sources. The argument would be more persuasive if public universities were completely government-funded but they aren't. For example, here's the University of Minnesota's income:
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
crazytown
(7,277 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,683 posts)that is, entirely by taxpayers. "Free college" would require not only increased tax allocations to the universities but increased income from other sources.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
crazytown
(7,277 posts)should pay 80 of tuition fees (Pete's proposal) or 100%. Fees for the wealthy would mean Government would not have to pay 100% of public schooling. If the wealthy can afford fee's they should pay. Same thing.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
aikoaiko
(34,169 posts)...aren't they pay more already for the common good of public ed?
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
crazytown
(7,277 posts)The wealthy are already contributing more here too. I'm putting up a critique of Pete's college policy.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
GemDigger
(4,305 posts)On the flip side if the parents of the rich kids don't think that public school is good enough then they can pay for a private school out of their own pocket.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
crazytown
(7,277 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
dsc
(52,161 posts)they have admission requirements which tend to favor the rich.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
QualTest
(84 posts)How many "Rich Kids" attend "Public Schools"?
I'll bet if we look at the ratio of those paying greater taxes to pay for free public schools,
to those lower income people benefiting...
This becomes a red-herring discussion.
The assumption here is we are discussing "Higher Education", but I'll bet it applies elsewhere.
This sounds much like the "people want to keep their insurance Co's" argument.
People can't stand, and could care less about their Insurance Co's! They just like their Dr's!
I so much enjoy these silly class warfare, pity the corporation, arguments.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
crazytown
(7,277 posts)It's the same argument.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Liberty Belle
(9,535 posts)Who decides who is "rich" enough to have to pay?
I'm sick of being screwed as a middle or at times, upper middle income earner based solely on hubby's income. It does not take into account the high cost of living in San Diego, one of the most expensive cities in the nation for housing, utility costs, some taxes, etc. Or other costs you may have such as putting kids through college, caring for an elderly relative with dementia, unexpected car or home repairs, etc. Should the kids do without school if your car needs a new transmission or has happened to us this year, a sewer pipe under our steep driveway boost and cost us tens of thousands to repair everything? Should one have to take out a second mortgage to put junior through K-12 school?
Worst of all is our healthcare. Hubby just got a new job that pays slightly less; he observed unethical actions at his old company and left. This week we learned the healthcare policy at the new firm will cost $1,000 EACH - $2,000 total, for hubby and me. With deductibles that already make it unaffordable to access much healthcare. How are we supposed to afford $2,000 a MONTH and that's for a crummy HMO where if you don't like the doctors or referrals take six months to a specialist you're stuck, at least for a while. WE are in our 60s, too young for Medicare yet. We did price Obamacare and other companies, but it's no better. This is obscene and should not be happening in America.
We are not rich. We are now spending more than we make every month because of the healthcare and our savings is being tapped out. Our kids are grown, but if we had children of school age I would not that we have paid our taxes for many years, probably more than many others who are poor, and our children should be entitled to a free public education too. It's part of the promise of why we paid taxes diligently and never tried to cheat or claim gray areas.
Would you say that only poor people can drive on roads free and everyone else must pay a toll? Or that firefighters should only respond to poor people's house fires because middle class and rich folks should pay for private firefighters? That's a very dangerous road to go down.
Of course if someone wants to go to a private school they should pay for that. I oppose public "charters" that suck money out of the public school system except in rare cases.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
crazytown
(7,277 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Loki Liesmith
(4,602 posts)And if youre gonna do that to my kids Im gonna work like hell to see my property taxes go down to make up the loss Id take sending my kids to public school.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
crazytown
(7,277 posts)It is the same argument.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Demsrule86
(68,556 posts)as well...you fund public college and the private ones will close and many kids will have no where to go in the end...you have consider all aspects of any program.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
brooklynite
(94,529 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
karynnj
(59,503 posts)One of the few taxes where the wealthy pay closer to their share. In a diverse income town, the poor do not subsidize the wealthy.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
crazytown
(7,277 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
karynnj
(59,503 posts)As others note rich towns can have far more money for schools. Many states have addressed this by having state taxes, including income taxes, to subsidize schools in poorer areas.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
LiberalBrooke
(527 posts)Thats not the way to get good public education or keep it.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
crazytown
(7,277 posts)And a good public education includes public college.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
crazytown
(7,277 posts)Why should lower income families, paying state taxes, ever subsidize college for wealthy families?
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
MineralMan
(146,288 posts)One of the benefits of wealth is sending your kids to private schools. Most wealthy people take advantage of that benefit. That has been the case for decades.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
crazytown
(7,277 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
MineralMan
(146,288 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
bitterross
(4,066 posts)Their parents are probably paying property taxes. That's what pays for most public schools.
You are making a fallacy to assume they do not already pay for a service they are not using if they go to private schools.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
crazytown
(7,277 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Iggo
(47,552 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
crazytown
(7,277 posts)The same arguments apply. The wealthy can afford to pay fees.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Iggo
(47,552 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Maine-i-acs
(1,499 posts)charters are the real grifting.
Taking money from poor kids to discount the for-profit charter schools that can then exclude the poor kids from attending.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Pisces
(5,599 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
crazytown
(7,277 posts)taking as an example public schools, which are fee free for all.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Pisces
(5,599 posts)That money should go to public schools instead of individual households that teach mostly religious kids alternative science facts (sarcasm).
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
crazytown
(7,277 posts)No public funding for 'abstinence' education. SCOTUS should revisit home 'schooling'. They won't, but they should.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)who pay in. And imo shameful to even pretend there could be a valid argument for bigotry, inviting people who think racism is the only way our inner bigots are expressed to leap in. Pisces' response is actually more generous than mine.
We support universal, publicly funded education for the good of our nation as a whole and of its people individually and to encourage everyone's stake in democracy.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
crazytown
(7,277 posts)I believe in free public education. It is a public good. I don't believe there should be discrimination against the children of wealthy families when it comes to public college. A high school education may have been sufficient in the 1950s, but it is not now. If the wealthy should pay more taxes to support public education, well and good, but don't charge the kids fees.
I'm sorry if you got that impression. It was not my intention.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)our nation's voters to believe they're not as entitled to the benefits of belonging as everyone else would be disastrous and that's always been understood. The goal is a nation who believe in "us" and are willing to pay into the general welfare. Not various groups who believe in "us" v all the others they resent.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Me.
(35,454 posts)You did it again
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
LongtimeAZDem
(4,494 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
dsc
(52,161 posts)public colleges do. For example ECU requires an 1110 SAT which is about a 22 ACT. I took a look at my school's and my districts ACT results. Only 33.9% at my school and 43.7% at my district scored 17 or above. State wide it is 57.9%. So an awful lot of people who can't get into college (most of whom are likely to be poorer than those who can get in) are going to be paying for the educations of those who can (including children of doctors and lawyers).
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
crazytown
(7,277 posts)Education is a public good.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
dsc
(52,161 posts)be vets.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
OhNo-Really
(3,985 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
aidbo
(2,328 posts)Its like no one has ever heard of a modest proposal
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
dawg day
(7,947 posts)Then again, maybe we're just getting used to proposals made insincerely and without evidence, and no one can recognize satire anymore.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
crazytown
(7,277 posts)Education is a public good, and a right. That's what I was saying. Finishing high school can no longer be counted as a good education, as it was in the 1950s - then the unskilled were hung up to dry
So the graduations hang on the wall
But they never really helped us at all
No they never taught us what was real
Iron and coal, chromium steel
And we're living here in Allentown
But it's getting very hard to stay
Allentown, Billy Joel
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
dawg day
(7,947 posts)They felt a dedication to public education, donated more than generously to the PTO and the schools foundation, and have continued to do so long after their children are grown.
They had other choices, of course. But they believed their children should not separate themselves from regular people.
Public education is not 'public' if some children are barred from going unless they pay. And that includes rich people.
I'm not rich, but I think once we start discouraging people from sending their kids to public schools for whatever, we will lose the inclusiveness and community that is essential to public education.
Tax ALL the rich more, but don't penalize parents who care about public education.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
beachbumbob
(9,263 posts)education gets most of revenue. Don't force me to draw and connect all the dots
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
crazytown
(7,277 posts)I am making an argument for fee free public college. Wealthy parents fund public colleges too - they pay more in State taxes.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)Their parents should pay their fair share of taxes and funding should be equal for each school, with differences only for the school level (elementary, pre-middle, middle, high).
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
treestar
(82,383 posts)In fact, mostly they already are.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden