So when a leftist loses, it proves the left can't win. But when a centrist loses...

[redgreenandblue]

...its everybody elses fault and proves we need to nominate more centrists.

[TwilightZone]

1. In 2018, nearly all of the gains on the Dem side were moderates in reddish areas.

What do you suppose we should learn from that, if anything?

[Thekaspervote]

51. That's right! I've posted this before...worth repeating

Voters are fairly clear about what they would like from a Democrat. They prefer, by 82% to 11%, one who promises to find common ground over one who promises to fight for a progressive agenda; and they prefer a moderate over a liberal, 75% to 19%.


They support Biden over the president, 38% to 27%, but prefer the president to Warren, 37% to 20%. Sanders is in between, with the president leading him, 34% to 32%. This group voted for Trump by a smaller margin in 2016, 37% to 30%, with the rest casting ballots for minor candidates.

The link with the DU post doesn’t work but it is searchable

[BlueWI]

58. Did left voters participate in these elections?

Yes or no?

Do their votes count the same as other voters?

Yes or no?

Why is bashing the left so popular on DU, day after day, despite liberals being the most reliable Democratic constituency?

Because it feels good to have a scapegoat?

[Demsrule86]

69. The so called greens gave us Trump. Stein took enough votes to elect Hillary and the least

they could have done was elect progressives like Feingold...so spare me...and what about 2000 and 2004 ? How about 2010 when we couldn't get a public option and blew up the House...or 2014 when Obama was such a 'disappointment' to them...that they blew up the Senate and the GOP got an extra justice out of it.

[BlueWI]

72. Same cliches, different day.

Green voters didn't elect Trump. Trump voters did.

Feingold ran a meh campaign based on assumptions about the electorate from six years before and lost a winnable race.

The left votes Democratic more consistently, election after election, than moderates or conservatives, who regularly provide winning margins for the Bushes and Reagans of the world. But the outdated thinking and scapegoating is obsessed with 31,000 Green voters in Wisconsin. Check how many Libertarians bolted from Trump and you'll see a number 4x greater than the WI Green voters in 2016. Look it up if you want to.

Or charge on and keep bashing the most reliable Democratic constituency, liberals, including the "left."

[Demsrule86]

73. The left left voter have let us down...in very important years...as mentioned in my original post...

We would not have United, two wars, had an economic collapse and now fucking Trump who cages and as good as murders kids...he won't even allow flu shots for incarcerated kids...I will hate Nader and Stein until my dying day...and any that voted for either of them have blood on their hands as do any that stayed home or wrote in candidates. We need voters who vote blue no matter who. Now if we don't run someone who can win...which in my opinion is Biden, we will lose our chance of progressive policy for a generation and maybe forever if Trump wins we may lose our republic and progressive achievements going back to Roosevelt...yes it is that serous...and the Green left brought us to where we are now...right wing hell.

[BlueWI]

81. How about moderate and conservative Dems voting for Reagan?

Did they let you down?

Democrats voting for Bush in Florida, 2000 - is that a problem? Greater numbers than Nader voters in FL.

I guess not. You don't acknowledge these large numbers of voters.

Now it's the left left. Whatever that is.

Charge on.

[Demsrule86]

82. That was 40 years ago...and they became Republicans and sadly stayed Republicans...but this is more

recent...and covers almost 20 years...everything that has hurt our more recent efforts is because Bush was elected...United, war and economic issues...and now we have fucking Trump....and in between the same folks sabotaged Obama in 10 and 14... and thanks to their multi-years betrayals... we have the Bush shit (how many died in Katrina and now Puerto Rico?) and we have three right wing picks for SCOTUS in the last two to three years I would go so far as to say these folks hurt the progressive movement which could be described as on life support pending 2020 Also, the Greens should change their name because they help elect Republicans who are not green in the least but anti-green menaces The damage to the environment caused by their election is not calculable.... We must win the 2020 general in order to save our party, our progressive movement and our Republic .

[BlueWI]

85. 40 years ago or not, they deserve criticism. Wouldn't you agree?

And you still didn't mention the Democratic voters for Bush in Florida, 2000. Outnumbered the Nader voters, who BTW didn't vote for Bush. And even though Reagan was 40 years ago, liberals and very liberals are still more likely to vote for the Democratic ticket than moderates or conservatives. This is reflected in exit poll data from cycle after cycle. On DU, moderate posters are silent about this. Why is bashing the left such an addiction, despite what facts say about voter preference?

And Nader didn't vote to authorize the war. Your preferred candidate for 2020 did. Made a mistake, he says, on one of the biggest votes of the century. His choice on that issue had nothing to do with Nader, the left, or anyone but him.

1 million votes for the Greens, 60+ million for Trump in 2016. Focusing all these hackles on 1 million voters from four years ago is a great way to lose another election. Conditions change, but this blame the left game hasn't.

How about showing some actual respect for differences of opinion among potential Democratic voters? Probably a better way to pick up votes than to continuously disparage left voters that, all in all, have similar values but differences in political perspective. There will always be third party voters - if Perot voters hadn't voted that way, we'd probably have lost in 1992. In WI, Johnson voters hurt Trump's totals more than Green voters hurt Clinton. Look at the numbers - I know I've sent them too you before. But you ignore data and double down on venting about Stein and Nader.

You're right, there's an election to win. So how about we reach out to all potential supporters, organize, and win?

[Demsrule86]

86. Anyone who voted for Reagan deserves criticism...that is not the point...much of what the left

greens complain about they caused by not voting for Gore, beating Kerry up in the primary, not having Obama's back in 10 or 14 and the worst thing ever...helping elect Trump...Stein went to areas where Hillary was having trouble to help Trump win...so fuck her and all the others...we don't care what you think.

[LanternWaste]

83. Ten bucks say you fail to see the irony.

Why is bashing the left so popular on DU..."

No more and no less than bashing moderate Democrats, but ten bucks say you are simply unwilling to perceive that particular (and most inconvenient to your narrative) irony.

Scapegoats, indeed... easier than looking in a mirror.

[BlueWI]

84. Nonsense.

The third way/triangulation/corporate Democrat language is nearly completely absent from DU in 2019. Broad-brush left-bashing at a bot-like frequency is a constant all over the board.

No objectivity whatsoever in your post. Drive by snark and nothing more.

[rockfordfile]

68. The districts are so slanted. It means you should get out and vote. 2010 was a big year

[Cha]

12. Why is that, FGM?! Moderates Winning in

2018 and getting us a Democratic House Victory is why it's even possible we are Impeaching trump NOW.

Please tell us HOW that is helping the fucking gop?

[Amimnoch]

17. +1000 spot on Cha. -nt

[BannonsLiver]

22. It's just an empty bumper sticker slogan

Which we are supposed to be impressed by, apparently.

[orangecrush]

33. Agree 100%

[BuffaloJackalope]

43. Look up what the "Overton Window" is

[Beartracks]

28. More (D)s in seats gives Democrats a majority...

... which gives Democrats control of the legislative agenda so that liberals can head up committees, and it doesn't matter if it's a light blue (D) or a deep blue (D) for that.

========

[bluedye33139]

3. Labour shed support for a fairly complex reasons that don't seem ideological

Corbyn is not an inspiring leader, not from policy but because of the anti-Semitism issue and some seemingly anti-Muslim sentiment in his past. Also, refusing to address Brexit clearly.

I think people are making a mistake if they think that voters turned away from Labour over ideological issues. They seem much more like tactical and practical failures of party leadership.

[BlueIdaho]

13. Labour lost their core constituencies.

When Labour loses strongholds they have held since the early 1900s it’s clear the problem is deeper than messaging. Time and time again, Labour candidates who knocked on doors told the same story. Working men and women felt Labour had abandoned them.

No doubt Jeremy Corbin’s mixed messages gave people few reasons to vote Labour - but Labour’s pivot to far left policies has lost them core supporters and thrown the party into a permanent 2nd place finisher.

[bluedye33139]

14. Scottish voters rejected Labour because of

Corbyn's antipathy to the EU and the likelihood that his government would simply continue Brexit negotiations. As a leader, he absolutely was repulsive to so many voters. Not because a boilerplate ideological issues, but tactical and practical problems with his leadership.

Scotland was the anchor for the party, and party leadership alienated Scottish people by waffling and presenting a muddled and unclear view of what they would do regarding Brexit.

I will follow Scottish accounts following the election. Possibly there were some voters who had ideological concerns, but at this point it appears that Brexit and the muddled attitude toward Brexit was a problem.

[Otto Lidenbrock]

32. In fairness Labour's hold on Scotland was shredded in 2015 under Ed Miliband

The rise of the Scottish Nationalist Party saw to that. In 2014 they managed to get a vote on Scottish Independence and there will likely be another one now. Scotland as a nation voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU so the will of England shouldn't drag Scotland with it.

[BlueIdaho]

54. It wasn't just the Scots.

The SNP replaced Labour as the dominant Scottish party over the last few elections. Importantly, Labour lost key constituencies across the north of England in this election - which is a new phenomenon. I listened to a number of local Labour candidates explain that door knocking in “safe” constituencies revealed that dependable Labour families had given up on the Party addressing their needs as long as Corbyn called the shots. This election, they literally held their noses and voted Conservative for the first time in generations if not the first time ever.

Labour hasn’t won an election for a long time. That’s not about to change until Labour decides to return to issues that impact a broader range of working men and women across the country. Today, Labour looks more like a regional city and suburb party. If they don’t do something, they can expect more of the same.

[wnylib]

49. I haven't followed British politics much, but

wasn't labour membership support hurt as far back as Tony Blair and his alignment with Bush over Iraq?

[NYMinute]

52. Jeremy Corbyn stuck his nose in the Kashmir issue

and went against a vastly popular Modi -- Indian origin Brits voted Tory which flipped over 35 seats where Indians have a sizeable vote.

[Demsrule86]

74. Corbyn ran on old fashioned leftist doctrine and it was soundly repudiated so those who think it

will work here should consider that moderates gave us the house and have won almost all elections since...it is a warning for sure for us.

[Drunken Irishman]

4. Centrists is a made up boogeyman by the far-left.

There aren't many elected centrists in the Democratic Party. Especially at the national level. I can't think of one centrist who's even running for president. In fact, the last viable centrist to run for the president was probably Joe Lieberman in 2004 and that was a long time ago.

There's certainly a good amount of very liberal candidates running, though, with very liberal ideals. But here's the question you shouldbe asking: when was the last time a leftist won anything of note nationally?

Leftists lose all the time. That's why it proves the far-left can't win.

[StevieM]

7. Bernie portrayed Hillary as the second coming of Joe Lieberman. (eom)

[Drunken Irishman]

20. The left often does.

I think it's the bubble they live in. They likely don't understand the real world and the ideological definitions. I'd assume most probably come from areas dominated by pretty liberal politics and just assume anyone to the right of them politically is a centrist.

I live in Utah, where there are true centrist Democrats - guys like Ben McAdams.

He falls right in the middle:

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/members/ben_mcadams/412829

And he's nowhere near as liberal as Joe Biden.

[BlueWI]

59. What outstanding team spirit!

Left Dems live in a bubble and don't understand the real world.

And glittering generalities are now truth.

[Drunken Irishman]

61. Considering they'll call guys like Biden a centrist, I stand by my point.

Biden isn't a centrist. I don't think Biden has ever been a centrist. Even in the 80s, he was well to the left of, say, Al Gore. I can only assume people toss around the term centrist because they've never actually met a centrist and just assume anyone who isn't extremely liberal must be one.

No.

Go find a moderate/centrist member of congress and contrast his/her views with that of Biden and others. There may be overlap on some issues, but there will be significantly different ideological views.

Take Utah congressman Ben McAdams. He is, in my view, a true centrist.

What's his view on abortion?

He opposes abortion except in cases of rape, incest, danger to the mother's life.

He supports a balance budget amendment.

He voted against raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour.

McAdams has not come out in support for a federal assault weapons ban.

McAdams is to the right of Joe Biden. To me, he's a centrist. He hasn't staked claim to any liberal policy. Biden has. Multiple times.

[redqueen]

65. He sounds like a republican.

[Drunken Irishman]

70. Not any Republican I know.

[thesquanderer]

10. re: "I can't think of one centrist who's even running for president."

Bloomberg, Biden, Klobuchar, Delaney are centrist. Sanders, Warren, Yang are left. On the right would be the blue dogs, they don't appear at the presidential level .

[Amimnoch]

18. You are wrong.

Bloomberg:

https://www.ontheissues.org/mike_bloomberg.htm

Biden:

https://www.ontheissues.org/Joe_Biden.htm

Klobuchar:

https://www.ontheissues.org/Amy_Klobuchar.htm

Delaney:

https://www.ontheissues.org/John_Delaney.htm

[redqueen]

21. Bloomberg a left liberal? This is how you know those things are bogus.

He wants to tax the poor more so they don't spend irresponsibly. He supported stop and frisk right up until it was politically inconvenient.

What a joke.

[Amimnoch]

29. Yes, your opinion and 2 issues paints the whole portrait

Soo much more than the entire outline of all positions, statements, actual legislative/executive actions taken that on the issues uses to build a comprehensive profile that’s built against a long utilized, political science developed methodology for determining the scaling of those 4 quadrants.

Yeah, your 2 issue, cherry picked items has totally convinced me..

Maybe I’m mistaken, but isn’t it our side that is supposed to be the adults that embrace science and reason?

[redqueen]

31. Civil rights is an extremely important issue.

Kinda sickening that it's brushed aside so easily by some people.

[Amimnoch]

34. Because an accurate political profiling, long accepted and established

Is somehow the same as brushing aside civil rights?

Interesting logic train you follow.

[redqueen]

37. Bloomberg has no respect for civil rights. .

It's not rocket science.

[Amimnoch]

38. Bloomberg is left liberal.

And that IS by science.

[redqueen]

39. Junk science, sure.

You can repeat it until you're blue in the face. That will not change reality.

[Amimnoch]

40. LOL, political science is junk science because it isn't fitting your

Narrow narrative?

Okay.. sure.

Buh bye

[redqueen]

46. Bye!

[Drunken Irishman]

19. None of those candidates are centrists.

Let's stop making things up.

[thesquanderer]

44. Every political label is relative to other political labels.

If the possibilities are left, right, and center, then those candidates ARE close to center, unless you add a new category and split left into "somewhat left" and "further left." But I believe the two groups of candidates I listed are in different groups, whatever you want to call them. Compared to the more-leftish candidates, the less-leftish ones are, by definition, closer to center. And it's not like the more leftish ones are seen as fringe (anymore). They represent a lot of the party.

[Drunken Irishman]

47. These candidates aren't centrists.

I don't think you understand what a centrist is.

Every one of these candidates are considered mainstream liberals. They are 100% pro-choice. They support gay rights, and human rights. They support, in differing views, near universal healthcare coverage. They support similar hikes in the minimum wage. To be a centrist, you'd have to take a centrist approach on every major issue.

None of these candidates do that. They take progressive approaches from everything to do with guns, abortion, women's rights to healthcare, jobs, the economy, security and just about everything else under the sun.

[thesquanderer]

48. So would you say the only centrist Dems on the federal stage are the blue dogs?

Either way, I disagree that "To be a centrist, you'd have to take a centrist approach on every major issue." That's silly. If someone takes a centrist (or liberal, or conservative) view on every major issue except one, is that enough to make that person not a centrist (or liberal or conservative)? How then could ever categorize anyone who wasn't completely pure to one place on the spectrum? I'd say you have to look at the where the preponderance of someone's stands are, and how they compare to those of others in their party (and to some extent, in the other party).

[Drunken Irishman]

57. I don't believe there's many national Democrats who are centrist...

And it's largely because the party as a whole isn't centrist. Those Democrats who are true moderates are at the legislative level and a result of representing more conservative districts.

There hasn't been a significant presidential challenge from a centrist candidate since Joe Lieberman in 2004.

[Recursion]

87. Jim Webb was probably the last one on a national level

Sinema plays a centrist on TV but doesn't particularly vote like one.

[wnylib]

53. You don't think Biden, Klobuchar, and Buttigieg

are centrists? Dems as a group are on the left. To me, moderate and centrist within party ranks are interchangeable terms. Some Dems, e.g.Sanders and Warren, are farther to the left than the moderates/centrists. Why reject the term of centrist?

[Drunken Irishman]

56. No. I don't think anyone seriously considers them centrists.

If they do, it's solely because they're so far to the left they make Stalin blush.

I don't reject the term centrist. I only reject it when it's applied inaccurately. I don't really think DUers understand what a centrist is. I think it's largely due to the fact those who toss the term around live in their own bubble and deem everyone to the right of them centrist.

Lay out all the important issues and then rank the candidates based on 'em. You'll quickly see how foolish the term is.

[wnylib]

64. Well, my use of the term centrist is definitely

not due to being as far left as you describe. It comes from the fact that, in any age, the status quo is the moderate or centrist view. Change, when needed or wanted, comes from either side of the status quo.

Thrre was a time when it was common to view people within the same party (both D and R) as liberal, centrist, or conservative in their views. During the civil rights and women's rights movements, both movements were considered very radically left, even among Dems. Dems who were center/moderate and conservative labelled supporters of those movements as socialist and commie extremists..

Eventually, the views of those "extremists" became mainstream moderate or centrist, in words if not always in practice, as a result of laws and court rulings. It took a lot of effort and stamina from minorities and women fighting an entrenched status quo to get those laws and rulings. Disgruntled Dems from the former status quo position turned to Reagan. But they found that their new party did not do as much for them economically as the Dems had. They bought into the Republican explanation that it was the Dems' fault for not supporting trickle down snd for supporting "the other" -- minorities. They became ultra conservative reactionaries.

Unions were "radical left" and "socialist/communist" in the 1930's before FDR promoted legal status and government recognition for them. Now they are mainstream left, although dwindling in numbers and power.

So, since left, right, and center are fluid over the years, depending on what the status quo is in society, to me Biden is a status quo candudate, supporting positions that once were radical but now are mainstream. To me, Warren is left of center but harkens back to the days when Dems were the strongest supporters of economic views for the working and middle classes.

[Act_of_Reparation]

78. Yeah, we're all extremely stupid.

Please explain to us what a centrist is.

I will listen with rapt attention.

[Bradshaw3]

79. Far left is a boegyman made up by supporters of the status quo

Proposals such as raising top tax rates and a national healtchare plan go back to the middle of the last centruy, to "far leftists" liek Truman. Funny now they are derisively called far left by those who don't like labels being applied to them.

[Drunken Irishman]

80. Truman would be run out of the party today as a conservative.

[IronLionZion]

5. Swing districts tend to be more moderate

liberals can win in liberal districts. Where I live in DC, the real election is the Democratic primary. There are no surprises on general election day because the Dems win like 90% of the vote.

[JoeOtterbein]

6. K n R ! Thanks for posting!

When a centrist wins, he has a thousand fathers. When a leftist wins, he is still an orphan!

[StevieM]

8. People who are center and center-left can point to previous victories

by Carter, Clinton (twice), Obama (twice), and Tony Blair (three times). And Al Gore actually won his election. And without Comey's repeated torpedoing of her campaign Hillary would have destroyed Trump.

[MarcA]

15. Bill Clinton's and Barrack Obama's first campaigns were not centrist

more left with a little center. Al Gore wouldn't fight the theft and Hillary Clinton's
campaign was in more trouble than just Comey.

[StevieM]

25. That may be the media narrative, but the bottom line is that she got swift boated.

This wasn't the McGovern or Dukakis campaign, making mistake after mistake. That was Donald Trump's campaign, actually. He just won anyway, mainly because of Comey.

HRC ran on the most progressive platform since the 1980s. And she had a history of fighting for things like health care reform and the welfare of children.

Besides, all the evidence indicates that we were the ones who candidates trusted the most on the issues. The GOP overrode that through swift boating.

Gore tried to fight the theft but it wasn't possible. Besides, the point is that he won.

I agree with your description of Obama and Clinton's campaigns. My point is that we lost when our candidates were seen as being way out in left field.

[MarcA]

41. Good Points. Gore did win. I think the media narrative is part

of the reason, not all of it, that our candidates are often seen as way out in left field.

[Demsrule86]

75. Clinton ran as a centrist...third way he had to...or we would have reelected Bush...and Clinton

never had a majority without third party spoilers...he would have lost...and Obama ran to the center in the general...it is how you win in this center left country...Sanders and Warren went too far left to move to the center easily.

[redqueen]

23. Obama campaigned on a public option

Which at the time was a 'far left' position.

[StevieM]

27. For the record, Hillary was the first candidate to come out for a public option back in 2007. (eom)

[redqueen]

30. No, that was Edwards. nt

[StevieM]

36. You're right. That was my mistake.

My point is that she was supporting it all the way back in 2007.

[The Valley Below]

50. So is Joe Biden a far-leftist or a centrist in your estimation?

Cut the malarkey.

[appalachiablue]

9. Yes, 'it's the voters' fault, the young peoples' fault,

the foreigners fault,' on and on.'

[MarcA]

16. You nailed it. n/t

[redqueen]

24. Exactly nt

[treestar]

63. Of course it's the voter's "fault."

The voters make the choice. It's the majority of voters who decide who wins. Other than the Electoral College. The voters will naturally pick "centrists" over anyone on the extremes by definition.

[Progressive dog]

11. In the UK, lot's of centrists

won over lots of leftists, There are now more Conservatives in Parliament since Margaret Thatcher. I really don't want the Democratic party to be in that kind of losing turn to the left. Just last year, the right wing controlled congress and now they don't. They lost over forty seats to moderate (centrist) Democrats.

[redqueen]

26. 40 seats went to moderates? nt

[BlueWI]

60. It's make your own data day for the moderate DU wing.

We were told upthread that moderates are rare among Democrats. Now we're told that 40 moderates won just last year.

OK. It's complicated, I guess. ; )

[redqueen]

66. Right?

Tiring.

[Demsrule86]

76. These were Democrats who are moderates and won Republican seats where Trump won by large

majorities...they weren't playing musical chairs by taking Democratic seats as AOC did in Brooklyn. She did not add to the majority, we already had the seat...and if we want a majority, we need such voters this can't be a purely progressive party unless we want to lose every election as the country is at present center left...we need a big tent. I hope we can change this in the coming years.

[Progressive dog]

71. That's not what I wrote

If you lose a seat to a centrist Democrat, that is a gain for centrist Democrats. Every little bit added to what you got makes a majority in the house for Democrats due to centrists beating Republicans. Nancy Pelosi has explained how this works many times.

[Tiggeroshii]

35. RIGHT?!?!

Baffles the mind.

[BeckyDem]

42. Yep. Be afraid, very afraid to take a stand. lol

[Uncle Joe]

45. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread redgreenandblue.

[Joe941]

55. It's an excellent question you pose.

[treestar]

62. "Centrists" are naturally going to win

more than extremists on either side. The voters' positions define the "center."

[Gothmog]

67. Blowback from U.K. election burns Warren, Sanders

Link to tweet

“It’s a lesson for all Democrats who are eager to replace Trump,” said former Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel. “There was no skimping on the progressive agenda and it was the worst performance in two decades. It’s not just economics. You have to have a candidate and a message that’s close to the zeitgeist of the moment — not just a grab bag of giveaways.”

The thoroughness of Corbyn‘s thrashing revived the longstanding debate within the party over just how ambitious the Democratic agenda should be, and provided fresh ammunition for the arguments of moderates who contend that if the party backs Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren, the primary’s leading progressives, they’ll lose the Rust Belt and perhaps even elsewhere.....

"Corbyn was basically a satellite project for Bernie world. If there is one lesson to be gleaned from the devastating loss across the pond, it's that we need more than just soaring rhetoric backed up by bravado of organizing,” said Murshed Zaheed, a Megaphone Strategies partner and former Harry Reid aide backing Warren. “We need to have leaders who have crystal-clear analysis of how to solve problems and leverage power to achieve those solutions. Corbyn never appeared to be a candidate with any sound plans on how to move U.K. forward.”

Before the polls closed on Thursday, Sanders’ national organizing director, Claire Sandberg, had tweeted that the “Bernie team says #VoteLabour” with a picture attached of campaign staff. Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, a top congressional ally who has campaigned with Sanders in Iowa, also tweeted in support of Labour. Two 2016 aides to Sanders, Becky Bond and Zack Malitz, had traveled to London earlier this year to help the pro-Corbyn group Momentum as well.

[JustAnotherGen]

77. I think

For Presidential it doesn't matter in 2020.

Grand discussions waxing poetic about the direction of the Democratic Party - can happen after we win the WH next year.