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Joe BidenCongratulations to our presumptive Democratic nominee, Joe Biden!

Sun Jan 5, 2020, 05:13 PM

 

For now, I'm shifting my preference here to Sanders

It had been for Warren, and I would still be more than pleased if she became our nominee. I liked Harris also, but she now is gone, and Sherrod Brown chose not to enter the race. I like much of what Steyer says but I simply can not support a billionaire being able to instantly insert himself into our national politics at the highest level simply because he can write himself a check. That said I remain open to all of our candidates, although I could only vote for Gabbard in order to stop Trump (if it ever came to that but it won't). I will be the first to admit that we have a strong field of candidates. Much good can be said about virtually all of them.

However it is Warren and Sanders who come closest to representing my political views about what is wrong with America and how to fix it. I will start listening more closely to "electability" arguments when there is more hard data to dissect, and that mostly means actual primary and caucus votes. I am particularly interested in seeing how much actual enthusiasm our individual candidates can generate for themselves, because I believe voter enthusiasm is a much more important factor than many give it credit for being. It drives the fervor that ultimately propels a campaign to victory in a tightly contested race. Trump, for example, would be doomed now were it not for the fervor of his base. I am also interested in tracking the support that our candidates receive from Independents in contests that allow them to participate in Democratic primary challenges. I am also paying close attention to who does best at motivating Democratic leaning voters who too often fail to show up on Election Day to actually engage this time (think young voters for starters).

I get that Biden up to now has almost always led the field. I also get that a lot of his support comes from people who believe that he is the Democrat best positioned to defeat Trump, which for them would be reason enough to back him. And of course, like most of our candidates, Uncle Joe has a cadre of true believers behind him also whose loyalty he has well earned over years. I am not anti-Biden. I am pro-Sanders. But like many others, this year I am feeling more pragmatic than usual. Ask me again where I stand after the first few contests and you may get a very different answer from me.

I had leaned Warren because I was giving her a chance to show me that she could mobilize a broader and deeper coalition than could Sanders. Maybe she still will, and maybe I will shift again toward preferring her. For awhile her surge fed that hope, but now my sense is that her drive actually has stalled. It isn't just a temporary illusion. She has been bruised by authenticity criticism (almost never fair in my view) in a way that Sanders is fundamentally much more resistant to due to differences in their past, among other factors. Her slightly lagging fund raising compared to Sanders unexpectedly strong showing I think is a leading indicator.

Right now there is way too much of the "I am supporting so and so because I think other people will support so and so" smoke filling the air. I think almost all of our candidates can ultimately count on strong support from those who traditionally show up to vote Democratic. Moderate Democrats will pull the lever to support a strong Progressive against Donald Trump. Strongly progressive voters will pull the lever to support an avowed more moderate Democrat in a show down against Donald Trump. But who can expand our voting coalition to mobilize apathetic and cynical alienated voters, and who can peel off more votes from the relatively small fraction of voters who chose Trump last time but who still remain "reachable"? Even though partisan battle lines are sharply drawn and feelings are running strong, there are still some potential votes up for grab. And that may be how the election is settled

There are two opposing views on the question. On one hand there no doubt are moderate Republican voters who are disillusioned by Trump who would support someone like Biden who they find centrist enough to tolerate, but not a strong progressive. On the other hand though there is a real restlessness in the electorate in recent years, not just here in America, but in Democracies around the world. People have lost faith in traditional politics, votes swing wildly from left to right and from right to left, but even more so to whoever seems least identified with perceived politics as usual. Once powerful political party dynasties in many parts of the world have been decimated by brand new grass roots political coalitions gathered under brand new banners. Europe is full of examples of this.

In my mind there is a wide spread fundamental sense that the "little people" of the world are having their lunches eaten by the powerful bullies of the economic elites.and Americans are not immune to those feelings This has been gathering steam for generations, and traditional liberals in the eyes of many have not done enough to reverse that trajectory even though they have often slowed its pace. In arguing for a return to stability and prior norms of civility, while giving support to supposed unity facilitating "moderation" in policies, some Democratic candidates are making a gamble. They are betting that voters will embrace an at least temporary return to the "normality" that so many had become deeply dissatisfied with before America began its current experiment with a no holds barred break from tradition under Trump, leading many to be scared shitless while minimally exhausting almost everyone else, whatever their politics might otherwise be. And that might be the right bet to make. Or not. In order for that to be true, in my opinion, American voters would have to be out of step with the sentiments driving election results in recent years almost everywhere in Europe and, some make the case, here in recent years also. A young Black President who ran on hope and change while arguing that we are not defined as a people by blue and red state identification. was a sharp break from the status quo. Trump running "against political correctness" while formulating grievance politics and division was again a break from a newer surface status quo. While the redistribution of wealth from the bottom and middle to the top continued in essence unabated throughout all of it.

I'll tell you what I don;t give a fig leaf about. I simply don't care if the Democratic Party gets dissed at times in the process of electing a new President who restores America to greatness and moves us back on the path to social and economic justice. And I'm an elected Democratic Committeeman and former Chair of the Democratic Party in my Town. We are so far beyond that mattering now, so spare me this or that perceived outrage. It is possible that more votes can be corralled by a candidate who appears to be less tied to the traditional political power structures in America than by one who has repeatedly proven his or her loyalty to our Democratic Party and its current or prior leaders.

I'm not certain about any of this, but that is what I am thinking about lately. For now though I stand with Sanders.





If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Reply For now, I'm shifting my preference here to Sanders (Original post)
Tom Rinaldo Jan 2020 OP
RobertDevereaux Jan 2020 #1
booley Jan 2020 #2
CountAllVotes Jan 2020 #3
ritapria Jan 2020 #4
Nanjeanne Jan 2020 #5
caraher Jan 2020 #6
RobertDevereaux Jan 2020 #7
Tom Rinaldo Jan 2020 #15
InAbLuEsTaTe Jan 2020 #52
Uncle Joe Jan 2020 #8
InAbLuEsTaTe Jan 2020 #53
The Velveteen Ocelot Jan 2020 #9
CentralMass Jan 2020 #10
Joe941 Jan 2020 #11
myohmy2 Jan 2020 #12
Beringia Jan 2020 #13
Ferrets are Cool Jan 2020 #14
BeyondGeography Jan 2020 #16
Tom Rinaldo Jan 2020 #17
BeyondGeography Jan 2020 #18
Tom Rinaldo Jan 2020 #19
corbettkroehler Jan 2020 #23
blm Jan 2020 #55
NYMinute Jan 2020 #20
Tom Rinaldo Jan 2020 #21
vsrazdem Jan 2020 #26
blm Jan 2020 #34
NYMinute Jan 2020 #36
blm Jan 2020 #37
NYMinute Jan 2020 #39
blm Jan 2020 #41
NYMinute Jan 2020 #42
blm Jan 2020 #44
NYMinute Jan 2020 #45
blm Jan 2020 #46
NYMinute Jan 2020 #47
blm Jan 2020 #48
NYMinute Jan 2020 #49
blm Jan 2020 #50
Tom Rinaldo Jan 2020 #40
corbettkroehler Jan 2020 #22
question everything Jan 2020 #24
Tom Rinaldo Jan 2020 #25
question everything Jan 2020 #29
Tom Rinaldo Jan 2020 #30
totodeinhere Jan 2020 #33
question everything Jan 2020 #35
totodeinhere Jan 2020 #38
NYMinute Jan 2020 #43
blm Jan 2020 #51
NYMinute Jan 2020 #54
blm Jan 2020 #56
secondwind Jan 2020 #27
Tom Rinaldo Jan 2020 #28
scipan Jan 2020 #31
totodeinhere Jan 2020 #32
RussBLib Jan 2020 #57

Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)

Sun Jan 5, 2020, 05:15 PM

1. Thank you!

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)

Sun Jan 5, 2020, 05:20 PM

2. May sanders continue to earn your support

 

I won't deny my bias but I found your post well thought out.



If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)

Sun Jan 5, 2020, 05:27 PM

3. I am about ready to do the same

 

I still have my Sanders t-shirt from 2016.

I will be wearing a new one soon I think!

I too like Elizabeth Warren.

A Sanders/Warren or vice-versa would be THE winning ticket!!!





If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)

Sun Jan 5, 2020, 05:33 PM

4. The swing voters in The Rust Belt States

 

don't want a return to normalcy ...They rejected "normalcy " in 2016 …...They are sick and tired of 40 years of stagnant wages …..A rigged economic system where their productivity increased by 100%, and their compensation , adjusted for inflation, barely budged ...Half of this country lives paycheck to paycheck... Health Care costs are eating them alive.. ..Do you think they are going to be moved by the clarion call . "A Return to Normalcy ?……."Normalcy" sucks for these people … That is why we are stuck with an Orange Reality TV host in the first instance ......
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)

Sun Jan 5, 2020, 05:52 PM

5. I'm a strong Sanders supporter but will happily pull a lever for Warren. I have no doubt that

 

if either of them are the nominee, they will support eachother fully in the election and in the Senate if we should be fortunate to have them elected.

Welcome!
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)

Sun Jan 5, 2020, 05:57 PM

6. In the end I hope Warren & Sanders supporters can join forces

 

There's definitely a largely shared vision associated with both candidates. I currently prefer Warren for a number of reasons but supported Sanders in 2016, and my hope would be that one or the other take a clear, early advantage so that progressives can have a chance to unite behind whichever candidate gains more traction with voters.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to caraher (Reply #6)

Sun Jan 5, 2020, 06:03 PM

7. 100% with you on this!

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Response to caraher (Reply #6)

Mon Jan 6, 2020, 09:03 AM

15. Yes, I would like to rally around one of them

 

Their public appeal differs slightly but their core messages are so closely aligned. I hope one of them soon establishes clear evidence of breaking through with increasing circles of voters.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Reply #15)

Tue Jan 7, 2020, 12:21 AM

52. Me too, as you can obviously see below... but, welcome aboard the Bernie bandwagon!!

 

Whether it's Bernie or Elizabeth in the end, when they combine forces, look out!! They'll be an unstoppable team, as I've been saying for years... unstoppable all the way to the White House!!




Bernie/Elizabeth or Elizabeth/Bernie 2020!!
Either way, they're stronger together & can't be bought!!
Jump on the Bernie Bandwagon & join the revolution!!
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)

Sun Jan 5, 2020, 06:08 PM

8. A well thought out post.

 

Thanks for sharing Tom Rinaldo.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Response to Uncle Joe (Reply #8)

Tue Jan 7, 2020, 12:36 AM

53. I agree with you Joe. I notice that those who I believe are the most politically astute tend to vote

 

for Democratic candidates on the progressive end of the political spectrum, which, of course, is leading them to support either Bernie or Elizabeth in the 2020 primary. When the two forces combine, hopefully soon after voters in the early primary states have their say, we will see one of those two emerge in a big way!! Cant wait!!


Bernie/Elizabeth or Elizabeth/Bernie 2020!!
Either way, they're stronger together & can't be bought!!
Jump on the Bernie Bandwagon & join the revolution!!
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)

Sun Jan 5, 2020, 06:24 PM

9. Suit yourself, but Sanders is the only one of the first- or second-tier candidates

 

whom I will absolutely not support in the primary in my state. Obviously I'd vote for him in the general because he'd be better than Trump (but that's a pretty low bar), but I seriously doubt he could win. For one thing, the GOP will slap the "socialist" label on him and he won't be able to peel it off because he's called himself that, and that label, fairly or accurately or not, is still the kiss of death in this country. For another thing, maybe we're all sick of angry, shouty old men. I certainly am.

More importantly, I don't think that, even if Bernie did manage to win, he would be a good or effective president. Although I supported him in 2016, he showed me a side I didn't like at all when he refused to concede to Clinton even after there was no mathematical chance he could get enough delegates - and then his supporters tried to disrupt the convention because they didn't like the outcome. That's poor sportsmanship at best and destructive, even nihilistic behavior at worst. Even though my personal ideology is closer to his, I was happy to shift my support to Hillary because by then I thought she could win and that she'd be a good president.

Now, four years later, I'm more convinced than ever that Sanders, unlike Clinton and unlike most of the other current candidates, lacks the temperament needed for the presidency. His ideology is rigid and, like his political vocabulary, it has not changed appreciably since the '60s. He doesn't understand that racism can't be fixed with only a more progressive economic policy, which means that he doesn't have a particularly strong following among PoC, especially women, whose votes we need desperately. He seems oblivious to reported charges of sexism within his own campaign (an onloing problem within the doctinaire left since the '60s), and his campaign's senior staff includes former Stein voters and current Democrat-bashers like David Sirota, Brihanna Gray and Nina Turner, all of whom seem to be more interested in trashing the so-called "establishment" (as if someone who's been in Congress for decades isn't a member of same) than in focusing on persuading voters to actually vote for Democrats. What will this do to down-ticket Democratic candidates who rely on the coattails of a strong Democratic presidential ticket?

And this all comes down to the basic point that Bernie isn't a team player and never has been. He's a Democrat only every four years when it's convenient, and he will have a huge problem on that account if he were to become president: to be successful a president absolutely needs his/her party to have his/her back. Would Bernie appoint agency heads who can work with Democrats in Congress, or will he appoint ideologues without proper vetting (see, e.g., Darius Khalil Gordon, who had to be fired from his campaign when his anti-Semitic and homophobic tweets were discovered; why weren't they discovered before he was offered a job - and what about the endorsement of noted misogynist Cenk Uygur)? Never mind being able to work with Republicans - will Democratic Congresspeople and other politicians trust Bernie after he and his surrogates have been kicking them in the nuts for the entire duration of his campaign? Will they support his initiatives and legislative proposals? Will he kick them in the nuts some more if they ask him to support proposed bills that are not pure enough to suit him? Or will he just yell and point his fingers and rail about the billionaires, like always?

I do believe Bernie is sincere, but sincerity isn't enough. And I really don't give a shit about satisfying my own personal ideology or anybody else's as long as Trump is in the White House posing an existential threat to democracy. Sorry, but the only reason I can think of any more to support Bernie is that he's better than Trump.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)

Sun Jan 5, 2020, 07:00 PM

10. Thanks Tom.

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)

Sun Jan 5, 2020, 07:02 PM

11. Very smart analysis.

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)

Sun Jan 5, 2020, 07:19 PM

12. great write-up...

 

...good shift...

...
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)

Sun Jan 5, 2020, 07:27 PM

13. It just occurred to me why Sanders said, I apologize to no one

 


Because everyone else got behind the Iraq war and he didn't. So they have to apologize but he doesn't.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)

Sun Jan 5, 2020, 08:15 PM

14. Very well thought out post. nt

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)

Mon Jan 6, 2020, 09:21 AM

16. Suit yourself

 

I think he would crumble in the general. Too many Democrats despise him and the R’s would find it easy to red scaremonger suburban voters to death. I also don’t like that he exerts zero control over his most rabid supporters. His leadership skills in that respect are nil. Trump/Sanders would be the ugliest campaign imaginable.

Warren would pull from a broader base of support and hold up much better if given the chance. She’d also be far more likely to put together a functioning administration that gets things done. Bernie, based on the way he runs his campaign and who he surrounds himself with, would waste at least a full year cleaning up appointments that never should have been made. And by then he would be an 80-year-old man with a heart problem.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #16)

Mon Jan 6, 2020, 09:34 AM

17. I don't think we collectively are capable of imagining how ugly the upcoming campaign will be

 

We got a taste of that last time with how Trump attacked Clinton ("Lock her up" etc.) We are seeing that now with the early smears of the Biden's. They will red bait Sanders. They will also red bait Warren. But each Democratic choice opens up different ugly doors for Trump to storm through. Sanders has the bedrock foundation of a consistent message for 40 years at a time when increasingly people are fed up with establishment politics.

My own support is still fluid, but I am suspecting that Sanders is better positioned to tap into a general public disgust with how our nation has been sliding for decades now than is Warren. And thus he may have a better chance to get to being able to put together an Administration than Warren does.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Reply #17)

Mon Jan 6, 2020, 09:35 AM

18. Who do you see as his running mate?

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #18)

Mon Jan 6, 2020, 09:59 AM

19. I would hope for Kamala Harris

 

They have worked together in the senate on progressive legislation and she is definitely progressive leaning if not outright progressive, so it would not be too much of a stretch for him. But she also has mainstream creds, is much younger and of course a Black female. She addresses weaknesses that Bernie has on his own.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #18)

Mon Jan 6, 2020, 01:02 PM

23. I'm At The Bottom Of The Tank For Amb. Rice (Check Her Fresh OpEd On Iran)

 

Susan Rice would be the IDEAL running mate, not just for Bernie but any Democrat. Her New York Times OpEd on Iran reminded me of her bona fides on foreign policy. PBO and the nation was served very well having her as National Security Advisor!


If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Response to corbettkroehler (Reply #23)

Tue Jan 7, 2020, 01:14 AM

55. Rice is on my list for VPs, too.

 

Would love to see two brilliant, competent women take the helm.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)

Mon Jan 6, 2020, 10:22 AM

20. Anyone switching to Sanders was for Sanders all along

 

This is just to create a pseudo "momentum" for Bernie and its timing could be part of a Sirota-Weaver plan to make it look like a lot of people are switching to Sanders.

It will not work.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to NYMinute (Reply #20)

Mon Jan 6, 2020, 10:35 AM

21. I don't appreciate the implication that I am lying

 

I've been on this board since 2003 and I have always been upfront about what I feel and why. I can, if it would help ease your mind, provide documentation from my journal here about where I have stood, when and why. In 2008 I was a Hillary supporter. In 2016 I wanted Warren to run but she didn't and I supported Bernie in the primaries and of course Hillary in the General.

I stayed undecided initially on this forum, and then expressed a leaning for Warren. I have always said that there were four candidates who I was drawn toward. Sanders, Warren, Harris and Brown. My reasons for this (soft) shift are expressed above. Are you accusing me of being deceptive?
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Reply #21)

Mon Jan 6, 2020, 01:26 PM

26. I am sorry, but now that you have declared yourself a Bernie supporter, this is to be expected.

 

It just goes with the territory. We have to have pretty thick skins to post about Bernie and expect the blowback.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Response to NYMinute (Reply #20)

Mon Jan 6, 2020, 05:57 PM

34. Tom Rinaldo is not a liar. He's a stellar DU member and

 

his posts are thoughtful.

Biden and Buttigieg campaigns targeted Warren incessantly for a few months and succeeded in getting her numbers down. You should be proud to see Sanders doing so well after the onslaught waged against Warren.

Isn’t that what you wanted?

Aren’t you proud?
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to blm (Reply #34)

Mon Jan 6, 2020, 07:35 PM

36. You've perhaps read a different history altogether

 

It was the Sanders camp that attacked Se. Warren.

It was Sen. Warren who attached Mayor Buttigieg with the wine cave meme.

Biden has not attacked a single opponent. He has focused his sights on Trump.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to NYMinute (Reply #36)

Mon Jan 6, 2020, 07:58 PM

37. Um....Biden camp said she was dishonest like Trump.

 

Some in Sanders camp attacked her as not far left enough for them.

Pete attacked her on Med4All even though he was for it himself just a year ago.

You’ve, perhaps, missed those episodes.

Warren was attacked for 3months before she finally joined the fray.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to blm (Reply #37)

Mon Jan 6, 2020, 09:58 PM

39. Those are not attacks on Sen Warren but an attack on her policy of M4A

 

Attacking a guy for having a fundraiser in a wine cave is a personal attack.

btw -- Biden never said she was dishonest -- that is fake news.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to NYMinute (Reply #39)

Mon Jan 6, 2020, 11:21 PM

41. They went after her honesty and credibility - that's personal

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/16/us/politics/joe-biden-elizabeth-warren.html

Joe Biden Ramps Up Attacks on Elizabeth Warren’s ‘Credibility


https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/10/us/politics/joe-biden-sexist-elizabeth-warren.html
The New York Times
Biden's Attacks on Warren Turn Personal, Drawing Some Complaints of Sexism

Nov 10, 2019 · By calling Warren's approach “condescending,” “angry” and elitist, Biden and his allies are making a risky case against a female candidate. He says the criticism has nothing to do with ...
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to blm (Reply #41)

Mon Jan 6, 2020, 11:24 PM

42. No one went after her honesty and credibility

 

The only thing Biden said about Sen. Warren was "We are not electing a planner to have a plans, we are electing a president."
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to NYMinute (Reply #42)

Mon Jan 6, 2020, 11:26 PM

44. You're wrong.

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to blm (Reply #44)

Mon Jan 6, 2020, 11:27 PM

45. Link?

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to NYMinute (Reply #45)

Mon Jan 6, 2020, 11:32 PM

46. Posted a couple above.

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to blm (Reply #46)

Mon Jan 6, 2020, 11:42 PM

47. There are none - I read all your posts above. nt

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to NYMinute (Reply #47)

Mon Jan 6, 2020, 11:46 PM

48. Repost for you

 


41. They went after her honesty and credibility - that's personal

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/16/us/politics/joe-biden-elizabeth-warren.html

Joe Biden Ramps Up Attacks on Elizabeth Warren’s ‘Credibility


https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/10/us/politics/joe-biden-sexist-elizabeth-warren.html
The New York Times
Biden's Attacks on Warren Turn Personal, Drawing Some Complaints of Sexism

Nov 10, 2019 · By calling Warren's approach “condescending,” “angry” and elitist, Biden and his allies are making a risky case against a female candidate. He says the criticism has nothing to do with ...
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to blm (Reply #48)

Mon Jan 6, 2020, 11:48 PM

49. Thanks

 

I still don't see Joe Biden personally attacking her -- it was probably distant peripheral people.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to NYMinute (Reply #47)

Mon Jan 6, 2020, 11:49 PM

50. Another. And, unfortunately, it WAS Joe

 

The New York Times
Biden Attacks Warren as a 'My Way or the Highway' Elitist

Nov 5, 2019 · Joseph R. Biden Jr. unfurled sharply personal new lines of attack against Senator Elizabeth Warren on Tuesday, questioning her contributions to the Democratic Party and seeking to cast ...

Politico
'Elitist': Biden steps up attacks on Warren

Nov 6, 2019 · 'Elitist': Biden steps up attacks on Warren. The former VP is looking to stoke resentment among working class voters by casting Warren as a snooty Harvard professor. Joe Biden. Former ...
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to blm (Reply #34)

Mon Jan 6, 2020, 11:18 PM

40. Thank you. n/t

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)

Mon Jan 6, 2020, 12:56 PM

22. Welcome! Here's Why You're Right

 

The information below is but the latest raft of proof that Bernie attracts the most independents.

This is CBS/YouGov polling released earlier today regarding New Hampshire.



[the graphic above appears on digital page 17 of this PDF]

[read the full CBS News report here]

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)

Mon Jan 6, 2020, 01:07 PM

24. Sanders 2020 equals McGoven 1972

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to question everything (Reply #24)

Mon Jan 6, 2020, 01:20 PM

25. I am familiar both with that viewpoiint and with the 1972 election, which I participated in.

 

This is not 1972. The differences in eras are both profound and numerous. For starters, in 1972 America was still experiencing a decades long high from economic expansion. Unions were strong, job security and good pensions existed for many, middle class incomes continued to climb. The period of prolonged class warfare in which the wealthy stole virtually every cent of wealth generated by increased worker productivity from over 90% of the American public had not yet begun.

A George Wallace type could not come close to winning in America in 1972. Donald Trump is president today. Anger and disillusionment with the established order among mainstream Americans is much more rampant today than it was in 1972, even granted that there were those like me who identified with the "counter culture" back then.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Reply #25)

Mon Jan 6, 2020, 02:08 PM

29. McGovern was the only one against the war, which was one reason why he won the nomination

 

And, I think, as found out, he was not a union supporter.

But... he was a Democrat!

How can so many Democrats support Sanders who, essentially is mocking us? Who is not a Democrat, never been a Democrat, except to manipulate the Vermont Senate race, who actively campaigned against Democrats including wishing for someone to primary challenge Obama in 2012?

And, if so many Democrats choose someone who is not one, why should others, Independents and, yes, Republicans should too? If they (Democrats) do not trust their own why should we?

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to question everything (Reply #29)

Mon Jan 6, 2020, 02:27 PM

30. Sanders has very high favorability numbers. If I'm not mistaken, the best in the field

 

He also has, I believe, the top constituency rating among all Senators nationwide. Many find good reasons to like him. Meanwhile those like you, who are angered over his relationship with the Democratic Party, would also find good reason to vote for him over Trump if Sanders wins the Democratic nomination.

If your premise is true, Sanders will not win the Democratic nomination. If Sanders wins the Democratic nomination, your premise is at the least seriously flawed.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to question everything (Reply #24)

Mon Jan 6, 2020, 05:36 PM

33. I can think of worse people to compare Bernie with.

 

McGovern was ahead of his time and in retrospect we now know that he was right on most issues. But he was in an impossible political situation, and the Eagleton debacle pretty much sealed his fate.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to totodeinhere (Reply #33)

Mon Jan 6, 2020, 07:11 PM

35. If you are happy to repeat that major loss, your pleasure.

 

Most of us see the defeat of Trump as superseding any pleasure indulgence.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to question everything (Reply #35)

Mon Jan 6, 2020, 08:02 PM

38. I guess we disagree on who would be more likely to beat Trump.

 

We have come a long way since 1972 and actually, today McGovern would probably be considered on the right wing of today's Democratic Party.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to question everything (Reply #24)

Mon Jan 6, 2020, 11:25 PM

43. The only difference would be VT would substitute MA in the final result

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to NYMinute (Reply #43)

Tue Jan 7, 2020, 12:12 AM

51. Do you mean SD?

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to blm (Reply #51)

Tue Jan 7, 2020, 01:06 AM

54. 1972 electoral map

 



McGovern only won Massachusetts. If Bernie is the nominee, he'd win only Vermont.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to NYMinute (Reply #54)

Tue Jan 7, 2020, 11:00 AM

56. Oh, right.

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)

Mon Jan 6, 2020, 01:26 PM

27. Let's just ALL OF US pull the lever for the Democrat.

 


We cannot afford a Bernie or Bust mentality this year.

😏
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to secondwind (Reply #27)

Mon Jan 6, 2020, 01:36 PM

28. Of course we should, and will

 

There were less BoB's in 2016 than there were PUMA's in 2008. There will always be small percentages of voters who, from our viewpoint, act irrationally. That is simply a given in a population of hundreds of millions.

There should also be fewer character assassination type assertions made by some self identified Democrats against both Bernie and the many millions of voters who value him. Call the odds 50/50, call them one in twenty, either way there is still a real chance that he will become our nominee.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)

Mon Jan 6, 2020, 04:32 PM

31. Thanks for the thoughtful post.

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)

Mon Jan 6, 2020, 05:33 PM

32. Thank you. You are very insightful and I agree with you. n/t

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)

Tue Jan 7, 2020, 12:41 PM

57. Same here

 

Bernie answers questions very clearly and does not fuck around. I'd love to see a debate between Trump and Bernie.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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