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[bucolic_frolic]

1. I thought he was always an Independent

[TidalWave46]

8. No. He normally runs his campaigns as a democrat and then turns down the nomination.....

and runs in the general as an Independent. Unlike the Senior Senator from Vermont, who is a Democrat.

[Thekaspervote]

2. Right there with ya!!

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

3. Please allow me to add mine:

He is the only one of the first- or second-tier candidates whom I would absolutely not even consider supporting in the primary in my state. Obviously I'd vote for him in the general because he'd be better than Trump (but that's a pretty low bar), but I seriously doubt he could win. For one thing, the GOP will slap the "socialist" label on him and he won't be able to peel it off because he's called himself that, and that label, fairly or accurately or not, is still the kiss of death in this country. For another thing, maybe we're all sick of angry, shouty old men. I certainly am.

More importantly, I don't think that even if Bernie did manage to win, he would be a good or effective president. Although I supported him in 2016, he showed me a side I didn't like at all when he refused to concede to Clinton even after there was no mathematical chance he could get enough delegates - and then his supporters tried to disrupt the convention because they didn't like the outcome. That's poor sportsmanship at best and destructive, even nihilistic behavior at worst. Even though my personal ideology is closer to his, I was happy to shift my support to Hillary because by then I thought she could win and that she'd be a good president.

Now, four years later, I'm more convinced than ever that Sanders, unlike Clinton and unlike most of the other current candidates, lacks the temperament needed for the presidency. His ideology is rigid and, like his political vocabulary, it has not changed appreciably since the '60s. He doesn't understand that racism can't be fixed with only a more progressive economic policy, which means that he doesn't have a particularly strong following among PoC, especially women, whose votes we need desperately. He seems oblivious to reported charges of sexism within his own campaign (an onloing problem within the doctinaire left since the '60s), and his campaign's senior staff includes former Stein voters and current Democrat-bashers like David Sirota, Brihanna Gray and Nina Turner, all of whom seem to be more interested in trashing the so-called "establishment" (as if someone who's been in Congress for decades isn't a member of same) than in focusing on persuading voters to actually vote for Democrats. What will this do to down-ticket Democratic candidates who rely on the coattails of a strong Democratic presidential ticket?

And this all comes down to the basic point that Bernie isn't a team player and never has been. He's a Democrat only every four years when it's convenient, and he will have a huge problem on that account if he were to become president: to be successful a president absolutely needs his/her party to have his/her back. Would Bernie appoint agency heads who can work with Democrats in Congress, or will he appoint ideologues without proper vetting (see, e.g., Darius Khalil Gordon, who had to be fired from his campaign when his anti-Semitic and homophobic tweets were discovered; why weren't they discovered before he was offered a job - and what about the endorsement of noted misogynist Cenk Uygur)? Never mind being able to work with Republicans - will Democratic Congresspeople and other politicians trust Bernie after he and his surrogates have been kicking them in the nuts for the entire duration of his campaign? Will they support his initiatives and legislative proposals? Will he kick them in the nuts some more if they ask him to support proposed bills that are not pure enough to suit him? Or will he just yell and point his fingers and rail about the billionaires, like always?

I do believe Bernie is a sincere, decent person who wants to do good (although I 'm not so sure about some of his campaign people), but that isn't enough. And I really don't give a shit about satisfying my own personal ideology or anybody else's as long as Trump is in the White House posing an existential threat to democracy. Sorry, but the only reason I can think of any more to support Bernie is that he's better than Trump.

[dsc]

6. that sums up my objections with him very well

likely better than I could have.

[TreasonousBastard]

14. Well said-- I agree completely, althugh I might highlight that aside from beating Trump...

there is the question of just what kind of President we need in the next term.

Bernie has absolutely no history of groundbreaking legislation of his own-- and cosponsoring other legislation is irrelevant. He also has no history of working well with others in Congress.

We may quibble over some of the positions Biden has take over the years, but he has shown the ability to work with others and find working compromises. Compromise is the basis for any democracy, after all.

Klobuchar is probably the best in this crew for working through problematic legislation without pissing off the opposition too much, and Warren may be just as good at it. But I would comfortable with Joe.

Effective compromise and putting the country back on track together are the reasons for beating Trump.

[PatSeg]

15. Very well said

I have been an admirer of Bernie Sanders for years, though I never saw him as a viable presidential candidate, more of an activist. Now that I see how he has run his campaign, I cannot imagine him running an administration. If he were to be elected, I envision four years of nothing, because Bernie would not work with congress to pass meaningful legislation. He doesn't cultivate relationships and shows no inclination to compromise.

If you've heard one or two Sanders' speeches, you have probably heard all he has to say. Whenever he speaks, it is like a rerun of every speech I've heard him give, though I think he has become more animated and angry as he gets older.

Like you, I also believe Bernie is a sincere, decent person, but I think running for president has changed him and his ego is obscuring his vision.

[redstatebluegirl]

18. This is how I feel.

I saw way to much in 2016 for me to consider supporting him in 2020.

[greatauntoftriplets]

22. +100,000

[bunny planet]

4. what Russian ties?

Can you elaborate....just curious

[ritapria]

5. Bernie's Ties to the Russians ?

Evidence ?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

13. I don't think he has Russian ties in the same sense as some of the GOPers.

However, the Mueller report did find that the Russians' election interference included efforts to help Sanders in order to damage Clinton and help Trump:

It turns out Donald Trump wasn’t the only candidate the Russians allegedly tried to help during the 2016 presidential campaign.

A 37-page indictment resulting from special counsel Robert Mueller’s investigation shows that Russian nationals and businesses also worked to boost the campaigns of Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders and Green party nominee Jill Stein in an effort to damage Democrat Hillary Clinton.

The Russians “engaged in operations primarily intended to communicate derogatory information about Hillary Clinton, to denigrate other candidates such as Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio, and to support Bernie Sanders and then-candidate Donald Trump,” according to the indictment, which was issued Friday.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/02/17/indictment-russians-also-tried-help-bernie-sanders-jill-stein-presidential-campaigns/348051002/

There's no evidence that Bernie knew about or encouraged this, though.

[LanternWaste]

20. Ten bucks say you fail to see the irony in your asking for evidence for an allegation

[TidalWave46]

7. To be fair, the party has always let him be a fair weathered friend.

He has joined and left the party over and over again throughout his career.

At the state level it made sense. It makes no sense at the national level. You hit it out of the park with this sentence when it comes to him doing this nationally. "He wants access to the resources, just as long as he doesn't have to help replenish them."

[Autumn]

9. Bernie has Russian ties? Bullshit. I honeymooned in Hawaii, I have no ties to Hawaii.

You have a problem with him being in the Democratic party and them welcoming him in you should take that up with your leadership. Obviously they don't share your concerns, they are smart enough to know he's a valuable player on our side.

[MineralMan]

10. I'm not voting for him in the Minnesota primary on March 3, because

I don't believe he can beat Donald Trump, once the general election campaign begins. I think that is by far the most important thing for the 2020 election, so I'll be voting for the person who appears to have the best chance of beating Trump - Joe Biden.

For me, nothing else is as important as that.

[BannonsLiver]

11. I'm right there with you

The way he has handled sanctions on Russia gives me a lot of pause. Among other things.

[samnsara]

12. i just plain dont like the man..never have even when he was a relatively invisable senator..

..he would pop on on tv once inna while and he was always introduced as the "Independent from Vermont".. but who caucuses with the dems. So his support for the dems was always questionable. I never liked his yelling or finger wagging...even way back then he always seemed to be scolding me for something.

Then as candidate i questioned the motives of some of his supporters and surrogates. It frankly left me scratching my head wondering whose side he..or they..were even on.

He wont get the dem nom but IF he does.. yep I will vote for him. He..and we...will lose but i wont waste my vote on a protest write in.


Im not 14.

[PatSeg]

16. He appears to have no control

over his campaign and surrogates. I cannot imagine how he'll run an administration.

I can't take that yelling and finger wagging either. Constant anger and outrage are not persuasive, they are stressful and exhausting.

[comradebillyboy]

19. On the contrary, I think his surrogates are doing exactly

what he wants them to do. Bernie didn't hire the likes of Sirota, Gray and Turner by accident.

[PatSeg]

21. Scary thought

He's certainly not the man I thought he was.

[Fresh_Start]

17. we already have a grifter family in the white house, we don't need another

which is another reason to not vote for sanders