Fri Jan 24, 2020, 01:21 PM

BeyondGeography (38,561 posts)

Warren: "Unfairness" of loan relief is like saying no to SS because prior generations didn't have it

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If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided

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98 replies	Author	Time	Post
Warren: "Unfairness" of loan relief is like saying no to SS because prior generations didn't have it (Original post)	BeyondGeography	Jan 2020	OP
Exactly	cilla4progress	Jan 2020	#1
No, it's not	squirecam	Jan 2020	#28
You don't get ss unless you're over 66.	dawg day	Jan 2020	#43
You are wrong about SS.	MicaelS	Jan 2020	#88
I know... reduced rate before 66.	dawg day	Jan 2020	#93
People who were 85 at the start of Social Security didn't get retroactive payments	dragonlady	Jan 2020	#64
And everyone will benefit from the debt relief as well	kcr	Jan 2020	#67
'zactly	cilla4progress	Jan 2020	#72
Do you have any college age kids?	BlueWI	Jan 2020	#82
I do not	squirecam	Jan 2020	#83
Having college age children is just a reference point.	BlueWI	Jan 2020	#84
I wish she hadn't used social security as an example	jimfields33	Jan 2020	#45
It's a poor example....	squirecam	Jan 2020	#47
True.	jimfields33	Jan 2020	#49
It was a perfect example	kcr	Jan 2020	#68
Time will tell	jimfields33	Jan 2020	#74
Actually, once SS started, only those who paid into it got it.	PoindexterOglethorpe	Jan 2020	#85
Recommended.	guillaumeb	Jan 2020	#2
A whole lot of DUers agree with the selfish father. There was a huge thread on it last night.	LonePirate	Jan 2020	#7
That's because he wasn't selfish.	highplainsdem	Jan 2020	#10
Yes he was/is. He didn't want Warren helping other people obtain an education.	LonePirate	Jan 2020	#11
It was clear from what he said that he didn't see why the government should pick up the	highplainsdem	Jan 2020	#12
He was selfish, and short sighted.	guillaumeb	Jan 2020	#15
No one forced those students to borrow massive amounts. The ones who borrowed the most did so	highplainsdem	Jan 2020	#23
My son in law borrowed over 35,000.	guillaumeb	Jan 2020	#40
That's under $150/mo over 20 years, and I think the loan balance is forgiven after 20 years.	highplainsdem	Jan 2020	#53
My son in law and daughter had to wait to buy a house.	guillaumeb	Jan 2020	#60
People with lower incomes because they don't have degrees have to wait, too, if they can ever	highplainsdem	Jan 2020	#62
So, making college less affordable and accessible makes sense?	kcr	Jan 2020	#69
Didn't say anything like that. I like Biden's plan:	highplainsdem	Jan 2020	#70
But, but, but. Wuttabout the public servants who did the right thing?	kcr	Jan 2020	#71
They don't have to watch others being given debt forgiveness for nothing. And I imagine if any	highplainsdem	Jan 2020	#73
Well, yes they do. They paid for their college. Their new colleagues don't.	kcr	Jan 2020	#75
Laughable.	highplainsdem	Jan 2020	#76
I can see subsiding the cost of attending a state school	The Mouth	Jan 2020	#66
And that might be easier to accomplish. eom	guillaumeb	Jan 2020	#86
Only in tupsy-turvy world are those who pay their own way considered "selfish" and those	The Valley Below	Jan 2020	#51
+1,000,000	highplainsdem	Jan 2020	#55
I never thought I was being "selfish"	calguy	Jan 2020	#54
I agree with her!	David__77	Jan 2020	#3
This is going to be...	pfeiffer	Jan 2020	#4
If Democrats support policies of virtuous cruelty and selfishness, they will lose in November nt	Fiendish Thingy	Jan 2020	#6
Bingo! If voters want cruelty and selfishness, 45 will win them over each and every time.	LonePirate	Jan 2020	#9
+1	Kurt V.	Jan 2020	#77
Yup, extremely tone deaf on her part	Amishman	Jan 2020	#14
It will get much tougher as word gets out that her plan, like Sanders', provides most of the	highplainsdem	Jan 2020	#18
It's like the ones against free public tuition	bigbrother05	Jan 2020	#5
And the free education	squirecam	Jan 2020	#32
No, it isn't. Social Security was never offering tens of thousands of dollars (or potenteially	highplainsdem	Jan 2020	#8
OK.	Act_of_Reparation	Jan 2020	#30
???? Have never heard anyone whining about that.	highplainsdem	Jan 2020	#33
Uh huh.	Act_of_Reparation	Jan 2020	#37
Still have no idea what you're talking about, since there's nothing in there about millennials and	highplainsdem	Jan 2020	#41
Your failure to recognize hyperbole notwithstanding...	Act_of_Reparation	Jan 2020	#42
You do see it's about changing tastes, don't you?	highplainsdem	Jan 2020	#46
To what	squirecam	Jan 2020	#34
Would say forgive all debt equal to the cost of the closest, least expensive	The Mouth	Jan 2020	#13
Right	squirecam	Jan 2020	#36
Yes, everybody knows where that talking point comes from. It is major CRINGE	m-lekktor	Jan 2020	#16
Obama admin Treasury official:	highplainsdem	Jan 2020	#19
Trump Education Dept Official Urges Student Loan Forgiveness	BeyondGeography	Jan 2020	#21
Did you notice Johnson recommended that people who'd already paid their debt get a $50,000 credit?	highplainsdem	Jan 2020	#26
Point is you're to the right of a Trumper	BeyondGeography	Jan 2020	#31
No, I'm not to the right of a Trumper. I've never said I'm an absolute no on loan relief.	highplainsdem	Jan 2020	#35
So you agree with Warren that we shouldn't avoid addressing the	BeyondGeography	Jan 2020	#38
Biden's plan makes much more sense than Warren's:	highplainsdem	Jan 2020	#56
When people get riled about this they really ought to stop and think about all the handouts to corps	captain queeg	Jan 2020	#17
+1 nt	backtoblue	Jan 2020	#44
In similar condition	tiredtoo	Jan 2020	#20
It is very hard to get SSDI	The Mouth	Jan 2020	#24
Well ok	tiredtoo	Jan 2020	#50
So you are	squirecam	Jan 2020	#59
No that is not what i said.	tiredtoo	Jan 2020	#80
All I know is that it requires pretty solid medical evidence	The Mouth	Jan 2020	#65
No i think most of the people on SSDI need it	tiredtoo	Jan 2020	#79
I'm a little split on this...	Happy Hoosier	Jan 2020	#22
I was listening to a financial-advice show last year where a parent asked if she should take	highplainsdem	Jan 2020	#29
Well she starts this fall....	Happy Hoosier	Jan 2020	#57
Social Security didn't exclude people who had already saved for retirement	Jose Garcia	Jan 2020	#25
Exactly	squirecam	Jan 2020	#39
No, but it didn't reimburse them either.	kcr	Jan 2020	#78
K&R!	redqueen	Jan 2020	#27
You have to start somewhere	matt819	Jan 2020	#48
This message was self-deleted by its author	geralmar	Jan 2020	#52
Really bad argument....	Happy Hoosier	Jan 2020	#58
Although CURRENTLY the any 'wealth tax'	The Mouth	Jan 2020	#81
This isn't a good argument.	Drunken Irishman	Jan 2020	#61
Everyone who NEEDS loan relief should get it, IMO.	mike_c	Jan 2020	#63
How does one define who actually "needs" relief ?	MichMan	Jan 2020	#87
These are all good questions	squirecam	Jan 2020	#91
Just because the questions are difficult....	killaphill	Jan 2020	#95
There seems to be a lot of people that you're mad at.	mike_c	Jan 2020	#97
That is totally absurd	dsc	Jan 2020	#89
It will never pass	squirecam	Jan 2020	#92
life isn't always fair to everyone...	mike_c	Jan 2020	#98
Doesn't Elizabeth's proposal have a means test? Won't the very rich be ineligible for student loan	totodeinhere	Jan 2020	#90
No, the unfairness is that it's a lot of money going to some very well-off people	Recursion	Jan 2020	#94
Actually she is wrong on the facts.	former9thward	Jan 2020	#96

Response to BeyondGeography (Original post)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 01:32 PM

cilla4progress (22,550 posts)

1. Exactly

Exactly. Obscene, frankly.

Past generations didn't have penicillin, either.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided

Reply to this post

Response to cilla4progress (Reply #1)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 02:25 PM

squirecam (2,706 posts)

28. No, it's not

Everyone got social security once enacted. They didn’t give it only to college age students.

Everyone needs healthcare. They don’t give medicines only to young college aged people.

College is a ONE time thing. Unless Warren is now going to give everyone 10 free degrees...

It is nothing like medical care or social security.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Response to squirecam (Reply #28)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 02:38 PM

dawg day (7,947 posts)

43. You don't get ss unless you're over 66.

Medicare at 65. Some benefits are targeted. And lower income students.... there are millions in community college and yes, they take out loans too... will benefit.

I'd rather have free community college tuition, but something would be good.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Response to dawg day (Reply #43)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 07:47 PM

MicaelS (8,739 posts)

88. You are wrong about SS.

I just turned 62 and was able to take early retirement.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Response to MicaelS (Reply #88)

Sat Jan 25, 2020, 01:58 AM

dawg day (7,947 posts)

93. I know... reduced rate before 66.

But it is for older people, and of course for children who lost a parent and the disabled... but it is limited by those. And you get it even if you're rich. I'm okay with that, as it's worth that to get it to us nonrich. But same thing for gree tuition or forgiven student loans.

More affluent people might benefit, but that's the price we might have to pay ... pay them off.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Response to squirecam (Reply #28)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 03:41 PM

dragonlady (3,577 posts)

64. People who were 85 at the start of Social Security didn't get retroactive payments

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided

Reply to this post

Response to squirecam (Reply #28)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 04:27 PM

kcr (15,243 posts)

67. And everyone will benefit from the debt relief as well

They will have the benefit of not having to choose between letting their kids drown in debt vs their own retirement security, for example. It is short-sighted, selfish thinking to let an entire generation drown and maintain the status quo based on an outdated view of how things were when they had to pay for college/pay for their kids' college in the past. The idea that we should never change anything because it isn't fair to people who couldn't benefit before is self-defeating, and that's the nicest way to put it. It causes needless suffering and everyone eventually loses.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Response to kcr (Reply #67)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 04:44 PM

cilla4progress (22,550 posts)

72. 'zactly

Revelatory.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided

Reply to this post

Response to squirecam (Reply #28)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 05:35 PM

BlueWI (1,736 posts)

82. Do you have any college age kids?

Relief for students is also relief for parents. And if would certainly help some family budgets.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided

Reply to this post

Response to BlueWI (Reply #82)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 05:41 PM

squirecam (2,706 posts)

83. I do not

I have a niece who will be able to go to college in 2 years. Giving her free college would certainly help my sister.

And I’m against it.

Whether my family personally benefits or not is not the way I judge policy.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Response to squirecam (Reply #83)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 05:50 PM

BlueWI (1,736 posts)

84. Having college age children is just a reference point.

Your previous post implied that the only beneficiaries of college access are the students themselves. I'm pointing out that there's a larger economic impact that is less likely to be acknowledged if one doesn't have to co-pay college tuition for adult children.

Whether one agrees with the policy or not, it should be universally noted that the policy's economic impacts go beyond the students.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided

Reply to this post

Response to cilla4progress (Reply #1)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 02:41 PM

jimfields33 (12,465 posts)

45. I wish she hadn't used social security as an example

Once started everyone 65 and above got it. There was nobody left out and those that were are dead.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Response to jimfields33 (Reply #45)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 02:46 PM

squirecam (2,706 posts)

47. It's a poor example....

Just like Medicare 4 all ISNT MEDICARE.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Response to squirecam (Reply #47)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 02:47 PM

jimfields33 (12,465 posts)

49. True.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Response to jimfields33 (Reply #45)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 04:29 PM

kcr (15,243 posts)

68. It was a perfect example

The only people who can't grasp it are people who don't understand how time works.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Response to kcr (Reply #68)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 04:51 PM

jimfields33 (12,465 posts)

74. Time will tell

Iowa will be deciding factor on this.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Response to jimfields33 (Reply #45)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 06:02 PM

PoindexterOglethorpe (24,271 posts)

85. Actually, once SS started, only those who paid into it got it.

It's not a simple universal benefit. Oh, and it was several years before SS payments actually started.

I've known people who are very smugly pleased with themselves that they've mostly been paid under the table. No taxes. And then, they reach retirement age and surprise, surprise! They don't get Social Security.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided

Reply to this post

Response to BeyondGeography (Original post)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 01:39 PM

guillaumeb (42,641 posts)

2. Recommended.

And in 1900, no women were allowed to vote.

This father's nonsense argument will be used by the GOP to divide voters.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Response to guillaumeb (Reply #2)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 01:48 PM

LonePirate (12,899 posts)

7. A whole lot of DUers agree with the selfish father. There was a huge thread on it last night.

They did not like it one bit when I refused to agree with the father and his right wing motivations.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided

Reply to this post

Response to LonePirate (Reply #7)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 01:50 PM

highplainsdem (43,291 posts)

10. That's because he wasn't selfish.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Response to highplainsdem (Reply #10)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 01:54 PM

LonePirate (12,899 posts)

11. Yes he was/is. He didn't want Warren helping other people obtain an education.

He was of the mindset that if he can do it, so can everyone else.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided

Reply to this post

Response to LonePirate (Reply #11)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 02:02 PM

highplainsdem (43,291 posts)

12. It was clear from what he said that he didn't see why the government should pick up the

college bill for families that could afford to pay it.

That is NOT selfishness. It's pragmatism.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Response to highplainsdem (Reply #10)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 02:04 PM

guillaumeb (42,641 posts)

15. He was selfish, and short sighted.

Unless some feel that children should be forced to borrow massive amounts for an education.

Our priorities, what we do with taxpayer dollars, tells the world what we really prioritize.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Response to guillaumeb (Reply #15)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 02:15 PM

highplainsdem (43,291 posts)

23. No one forced those students to borrow massive amounts. The ones who borrowed the most did so

to attend elite schools they couldn't get scholarships to (even though those schools tend to hand out a lot of scholarships), or went to grad school, in both cases to make much higher incomes more likely.

It's a regressive plan.

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2019/04/24/how-progressive-is-senator-elizabeth-warrens-loan-forgiveness-proposal/

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Response to highplainsdem (Reply #23)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 02:34 PM

guillaumeb (42,641 posts)

40. My son in law borrowed over 35,000.

He attended a state school. And my children know many people their age in similar circumstances.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Response to guillaumeb (Reply #40)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 02:56 PM

highplainsdem (43,291 posts)

53. That's under $150/mo over 20 years, and I think the loan balance is forgiven after 20 years.

You don't think your son's degree is going to make him much, much more than $150/mo more than someone without a degree?

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Response to highplainsdem (Reply #53)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 03:13 PM

guillaumeb (42,641 posts)

60. My son in law and daughter had to wait to buy a house.

Having to pay back large loans depresses other spending by the affected students.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Response to guillaumeb (Reply #60)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 03:26 PM

highplainsdem (43,291 posts)

62. People with lower incomes because they don't have degrees have to wait, too, if they can ever

buy a house at all.

College is an investment.

I'd like to see college costs brought down, and more subsidies. I think Biden's plan is a good one:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1287443786

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Response to highplainsdem (Reply #62)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 04:35 PM

kcr (15,243 posts)

69. So, making college less affordable and accessible makes sense?

But, at least you're thinking of those without. That's the first step.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Response to kcr (Reply #69)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 04:39 PM

highplainsdem (43,291 posts)

70. Didn't say anything like that. I like Biden's plan:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1287443933

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1287443786

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Response to highplainsdem (Reply #70)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 04:41 PM

kcr (15,243 posts)

71. But, but, but. Wuttabout the public servants who did the right thing?

and paid for their college? Hmm.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Response to kcr (Reply #71)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 04:47 PM

highplainsdem (43,291 posts)

73. They don't have to watch others being given debt forgiveness for nothing. And I imagine if any

brought up reimbursement for earlier student debt, Biden would have a more reasonable, polite answer than "Of course not!"

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Response to highplainsdem (Reply #73)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 04:53 PM

kcr (15,243 posts)

75. Well, yes they do. They paid for their college. Their new colleagues don't.

So, now we're imagining what candidates would say. You imagine that Biden will have a plan to reimburse past college expenses? That's a bold prediction. I'm trying to imagine how much that would cost. Wow!

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Response to kcr (Reply #75)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 04:54 PM

highplainsdem (43,291 posts)

76. Laughable.

See my previous reply.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Response to guillaumeb (Reply #40)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 04:18 PM

The Mouth (2,822 posts)

66. I can see subsiding the cost of attending a state school

No problem with that.

I have a real problem with subsidizing people attending schools that cost more than that.

Tie the subsidization or credit to the cost of the closest state university. That would be fair.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided

Reply to this post

Response to The Mouth (Reply #66)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 06:02 PM

guillaumeb (42,641 posts)

86. And that might be easier to accomplish. eom

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Response to highplainsdem (Reply #10)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 02:50 PM

The Valley Below (1,701 posts)

51. Only in tupsy-turvy world are those who pay their own way considered "selfish" and those

who expect others to float their boats considered "unselfish."

Do these people not own dictionaries?

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Response to The Valley Below (Reply #51)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 02:57 PM

highplainsdem (43,291 posts)

55. +1,000,000

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Response to LonePirate (Reply #7)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 02:56 PM

calguy (4,001 posts)

54. I never thought I was being "selfish"

when we scrimped and saved to pay for our children's college. I don't think it's selfish to be a little bit pissed that EW is proposing that we did the wrong thing, since the debt we would have incurred could now be forgiven.
Foolish proposal if you ask me. And one that would b a sure loser in the general election.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Response to BeyondGeography (Original post)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 01:41 PM

David__77 (21,458 posts)

3. I agree with her!

...

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided

Reply to this post

Response to BeyondGeography (Original post)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 01:41 PM

pfeiffer (280 posts)

4. This is going to be...

a bit tough for Ms. Warren.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Response to pfeiffer (Reply #4)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 01:44 PM

Fiendish Thingy (12,243 posts)

6. If Democrats support policies of virtuous cruelty and selfishness, they will lose in November nt

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided

Reply to this post

Response to Fiendish Thingy (Reply #6)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 01:49 PM

LonePirate (12,899 posts)

9. Bingo! If voters want cruelty and selfishness, 45 will win them over each and every time.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided

Reply to this post

Response to Fiendish Thingy (Reply #6)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 04:57 PM

Kurt V. (5,624 posts)

77. +1

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided

Reply to this post

Response to pfeiffer (Reply #4)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 02:04 PM

Amishman (5,327 posts)

14. Yup, extremely tone deaf on her part

Even if it's some kind of tax credit (retroactive deduction for principal payments maybe?) That has less benefit for those who paid theirs off, offering nothing will be very divisive.

Many people are selfish, if it costs money and they receive no benefit, they won't support it

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Response to pfeiffer (Reply #4)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 02:07 PM

highplainsdem (43,291 posts)

18. It will get much tougher as word gets out that her plan, like Sanders', provides most of the

benefits to people who are well off already or who'll earn much more because of their education, while providing only a small fraction to people who aren't well off.

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2019/04/24/how-progressive-is-senator-elizabeth-warrens-loan-forgiveness-proposal/

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Response to BeyondGeography (Original post)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 01:44 PM

bigbrother05 (5,995 posts)

5. It's like the ones against free public tuition

Worrying that some rich kid will not have to pay to go to a state college or trade school. We have free K-12, but the rich still pay to get their kids in the elite private schools.

Any rich kid that goes to a public college will be better oriented to the world, so what's the loss?

The real issue is to make the tuition disappear as a factor for higher education and lower the need to take out loans.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided

Reply to this post

Response to bigbrother05 (Reply #5)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 02:28 PM

squirecam (2,706 posts)

32. And the free education

Is fine in rich neighborhoods but there are several failing schools that need more funding in minority or poor neighborhoods.

Why don’t people fix that first, before spending $ on free college.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Response to BeyondGeography (Original post)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 01:49 PM

highplainsdem (43,291 posts)

8. No, it isn't. Social Security was never offering tens of thousands of dollars (or potenteially

hundreds of thousands, with Sanders' plan) in debt relief to individuals who might have little trouble repaying that debt.

Warren's plan is regressive, benefiting people with higher incomes more. Sanders' plan would be even more regressive.

Analysis by a Brookings Institiute senior fellow in economic studies who was Deputy Assistant Secretary of the Treasury for Tax Analysis during Obama's second term:

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2019/04/24/how-progressive-is-senator-elizabeth-warrens-loan-forgiveness-proposal/

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Response to highplainsdem (Reply #8)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 02:27 PM

Act_of_Reparation (8,850 posts)

30. OK.

If that's the position we're going to take, then I don't want to hear another boomer whining about how stingy millennials are killing the economy by buying fewer screwdrivers.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided

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Response to Act_of_Reparation (Reply #30)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 02:28 PM

highplainsdem (43,291 posts)

33. ???? Have never heard anyone whining about that.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

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Response to highplainsdem (Reply #33)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 02:32 PM

Act_of_Reparation (8,850 posts)

37. Uh huh.

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/millennials-industry-casual-dining-weddings-beer-razors-golf-motorcycles-fabric-softener-a8574281.html

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided

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Response to Act_of_Reparation (Reply #37)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 02:36 PM

highplainsdem (43,291 posts)

41. Still have no idea what you're talking about, since there's nothing in there about millennials and

screwdrivers.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

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Response to highplainsdem (Reply #41)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 02:38 PM

Act_of_Reparation (8,850 posts)

42. Your failure to recognize hyperbole notwithstanding...

...you do see the article describing multiple, non-related examples of millennials being blamed for the decline of certain industries, yes?

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided

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Response to Act_of_Reparation (Reply #42)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 02:41 PM

highplainsdem (43,291 posts)

46. You do see it's about changing tastes, don't you?

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

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Response to Act_of_Reparation (Reply #30)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 02:28 PM

squirecam (2,706 posts)

34. To what

Are you referring to?

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

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Response to BeyondGeography (Original post)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 02:03 PM

The Mouth (2,822 posts)

13. Would say forgive all debt equal to the cost of the closest, least expensive

State college.

Or subsidize the same.

Everyone should be able to go to their local, State, 4 year college without going into debt.

OTOH, if someone runs up $75K or some other huge amount because that option wasn't good enough for them, or they wanted to get away from the parents, or wanted to live in a frat or their own place at a much higher cost, and/OR go to a Stanford or Yale, they can pay the difference.

Yes, I stayed local, went to my closest 4 year university; I have no problem with anybody who wants to, and will actually get through it doing that without debt. The kid up the street who goes into deep debt to go to a fancy Ivy league or a U.C. 500 miles away, I don't feel like I should subsidize that.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided

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Response to The Mouth (Reply #13)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 02:31 PM

squirecam (2,706 posts)

36. Right

No one is forced to go to an expensive out of state school.

If what you care about is learning...that can be done in state or at a community college.

If you care about the “experience” of not living with mom and dad, that’s your decision that the taxpayers shouldn’t subsidize.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Response to BeyondGeography (Original post)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 02:05 PM

m-lekktor (3,675 posts)

16. Yes, everybody knows where that talking point comes from. It is major CRINGE

when somebody who is supposed to be a democrat uses it!

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided

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Response to m-lekktor (Reply #16)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 02:08 PM

highplainsdem (43,291 posts)

19. Obama admin Treasury official:

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2019/04/24/how-progressive-is-senator-elizabeth-warrens-loan-forgiveness-proposal/

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

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Response to highplainsdem (Reply #19)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 02:12 PM

BeyondGeography (38,561 posts)

21. Trump Education Dept Official Urges Student Loan Forgiveness

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2019/10/24/student-loan-official-resigns-calling-for-massive-debt-cancellation.html

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #21)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 02:22 PM

highplainsdem (43,291 posts)

26. Did you notice Johnson recommended that people who'd already paid their debt get a $50,000 credit?

When that father asked Warren if he'd get his money back, her response was a dismissive one: "Of course not."

https://www.mediaite.com/politics/watch-angry-father-confront-elizabeth-warren-on-selfie-line-people-who-paid-for-college-get-screwed/

Johnson's apparently aware off the unfairness of forgiving student debt without also considering those who scrimped and saved and paid already.

From your article:

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/24/student-loan-official-resigns-calling-for-massive-debt-cancellation.html

Johnson proposes forgiving $50,000 in student debt for all borrowers, about $925 billion, according to the newspaper. For people who’ve already repaid their debt, he suggests offering them a $50,000 tax credit. The plan would be paid for with a 1% tax on corporate earnings.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

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Response to highplainsdem (Reply #26)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 02:27 PM

BeyondGeography (38,561 posts)

31. Point is you're to the right of a Trumper

if your position is an absolute no on loan relief.

Plus, in arguing the fine print you are not responding to Warren’s basic point about the stupidity of grandfathering misery because it’s unfair to those who played by rules that need to change.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #31)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 02:30 PM

highplainsdem (43,291 posts)

35. No, I'm not to the right of a Trumper. I've never said I'm an absolute no on loan relief.

I think we should expand on the loan relief already available.

But Warren's plan is too regressive, and the Sanders plan even more so.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Response to highplainsdem (Reply #35)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 02:33 PM

BeyondGeography (38,561 posts)

38. So you agree with Warren that we shouldn't avoid addressing the

the problem because...other people.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #38)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 03:02 PM

highplainsdem (43,291 posts)

56. Biden's plan makes much more sense than Warren's:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2019/10/10/biden-student-loans/#509da17f6bbf

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Response to BeyondGeography (Original post)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 02:06 PM

captain queeg (8,513 posts)

17. When people get riled about this they really ought to stop and think about all the handouts to corps

And various wealthy types that’s where anger should be focused

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

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Response to captain queeg (Reply #17)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 02:39 PM

backtoblue (10,919 posts)

44. +1 nt

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

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Response to BeyondGeography (Original post)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 02:11 PM

tiredtoo (2,731 posts)

20. In similar condition

A cult45 member recently told me he is upset with all the people receiving Social Security who should not. When asked to clarify he said many people receive ssdi that should be working. Cannot totally disagree with this statement but it is probably minimal in comparison with the tax breaks given to the wealthy and corporations.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided

Reply to this post

Response to tiredtoo (Reply #20)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 02:19 PM

The Mouth (2,822 posts)

24. It is very hard to get SSDI

But for actuarial and accounting purposes, it should be a separate program.

It's too easy to confuse SSDI and SSI.

he latter you pay into, and could easily be made solvent by raising the cap and possibly the retirement age (the retirement age of 65 was set when the life expectancy of someone born that year was 58).

SSDI should be funded as a separate program, it's never going to be solvent, not should it have to be, it's insurance for the genuinely disabled. And it is *HARD* to get.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided

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Response to The Mouth (Reply #24)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 02:50 PM

tiredtoo (2,731 posts)

50. Well ok

But i may question your term "HARD". 60 minutes had a segment on about how many lawyers are working on the Kentucky/West Virginia border getting SSDI for the folks down there.
Have an 86 year old neighbor who was a mason/bricklayer. He has had a few knee replacements and a few hip replacements since he went on disability at around 55 years of age. And he appears healthier than me. He works in his yard daily, he has built a shed in his yard, he has put a large brick patio in his yard, removed and planted new trees in his yard. Golfed frequently until he turned 80.
I also have two family members on SSDI. One had a debilitating stroke at 56 years. The other with autism.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided

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Response to tiredtoo (Reply #50)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 03:11 PM

squirecam (2,706 posts)

59. So you are

saying that people on disability are committing fraud?

If so, the govt should prosecute them.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

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Response to squirecam (Reply #59)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 05:10 PM

tiredtoo (2,731 posts)

80. No that is not what i said.

I suggested that some are committing fraud. IMHO the vast majority really need it.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided

Reply to this post

Response to tiredtoo (Reply #50)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 04:14 PM

The Mouth (2,822 posts)

65. All I know is that it requires pretty solid medical evidence

and often multiple rejections and appeals.

I'm sure there are people on it who could work a full time job, or are scamming in other ways. But on the whole, would you really argue that most, or many people on it don't need it.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided

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Response to The Mouth (Reply #65)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 05:08 PM

tiredtoo (2,731 posts)

79. No i think most of the people on SSDI need it

and some are scamming the system.
I agree with you.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided

Reply to this post

Response to BeyondGeography (Original post)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 02:13 PM

Happy Hoosier (4,836 posts)

22. I'm a little split on this...

.... should I take out $50K of student loans for my daughter and hope Warren gets elected, or spend what I've saved?

So many decisions....

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Response to Happy Hoosier (Reply #22)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 02:25 PM

highplainsdem (43,291 posts)

29. I was listening to a financial-advice show last year where a parent asked if she should take

out a second mortgage to pay off her son's student debt, which is at a higher interest rate, so he could save money as he repaid her.

She was advised to just wait in case one of the candidates recommending debt forgiveness gets elected.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Response to highplainsdem (Reply #29)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 03:03 PM

Happy Hoosier (4,836 posts)

57. Well she starts this fall....

so I need to make a choice this summer I guess. If I borrow the money for the first year, I could get it for "free"" instead of spending the 529 money I have saved up. What's the worst case.... I have to pay a little interest if it doesn't happen?

It's a toughie.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Response to BeyondGeography (Original post)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 02:21 PM

Jose Garcia (2,260 posts)

25. Social Security didn't exclude people who had already saved for retirement

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

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Response to Jose Garcia (Reply #25)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 02:33 PM

squirecam (2,706 posts)

39. Exactly

The argument is nonsense and it doesn’t compare. Everyone needs lifetime medical care and social security.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Response to Jose Garcia (Reply #25)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 05:02 PM

kcr (15,243 posts)

78. No, but it didn't reimburse them either.

They still had to save more of their own money to equal that of those on SS. And everyone gets SS, even the wealthy. Everyone had to start chipping in for all, and if that hadn't been enacted because it wouldn't have been fair to those alive at the time who'd entirely saved on their own, would that have been the right thing to do? We wouldn't have SS today.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Response to BeyondGeography (Original post)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 02:25 PM

redqueen (112,669 posts)

27. K&R!

Exactly right, however I do think forgiving 100% of all loans isn't the best way to help.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided

Reply to this post

Response to BeyondGeography (Original post)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 02:46 PM

matt819 (10,749 posts)

48. You have to start somewhere

A few years ago a credit card processing company made a public announcement that they would phase in a $75,000 minimum annual salary for all their employees. The CEO's brother quit - or maybe he was the co-CEO - or at least threatened to. The CEO reduced his milion dollar salary to $1 for a period of time. Some of the higher-paid employees, who believed they were worth the $75,000-plus that they were paid, were pissed that lower-paid (and lower skilled?) employees would soon be at their level, decided to quit. (I may be a bit off on the quitting and pissed-offedness, and I don't know what actually transpired, other than that the company is doing very well, but you get the idea - people were pissed off.)

Well, you have to start somewhere. There's millions of students and ex-students in this equation, and well over $1 trillion in question. Then there's the added factor - and confusion - over federal loans and private loans. Some have been paying for years and gotten nowhere close to repaying. Some have been paying for years and paid off their loans or are close. Some loans were humongous. Some not. Some people got great jobs and had no problem repaying. Some not. Some students got screwed by their colleges and by banks. For others everything worked out fine. Some loan recipients turned out to be deadbeats.

So, yes, people will be pissed off. But you have to start somewhere to alleviate this crisis.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Response to BeyondGeography (Original post)

geralmar This message was self-deleted by its author.

Response to BeyondGeography (Original post)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 03:09 PM

Happy Hoosier (4,836 posts)

58. Really bad argument....

I think a reasonable argument would be about tuition free college in the future. That would apply relatively evenly.

When talking about loan forgiveness, however, it does kind snub folks who sacrificed to save for their kids' college when their neighbors might have done otherwise.

I am in that position. My buddy has always bought the latest gizmo and gadget. Trades in his car every 5 years, etc. Me? I have been saving for college since my kid was a baby.

My buddy complains now about his student loans, but he is hopeful it gets forgiven. Me? I guess I get that warm feeling knowing I did the right thing? Kinda cold comfort.

Perhaps some kind of benefit for those who sacrificed to save?

And as a note.... if this doesn't get a universal support HERE, then how do you think it plays to the general electorate? (answer: Not great).

Maybe it's better to start with zeroing out interest? I'd be okay with that.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Response to Happy Hoosier (Reply #58)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 05:23 PM

The Mouth (2,822 posts)

81. Although CURRENTLY the any 'wealth tax'

will only effect the rich, the same was initially true of the Income tax.

When the income tax rolled out it only applied to about the top 5 percent, and only really hit the one percent.

I have no confidence at all that a wealth tax that starts out going after those with 5 million or more rapidly becomes a tax on everyone who isn't actually in debt.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided

Reply to this post

Response to BeyondGeography (Original post)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 03:23 PM

Drunken Irishman (34,857 posts)

61. This isn't a good argument.

Those prior generations were gone by the time SS rolled out. Her comparison only makes sense if SS rolled out only to those who hadn't currently retired yet. If that had happened, I doubt the program would have been viable. Instead, it rolled out, and expanded, to all those who qualified by age (65).

There's people who've already paid off their debt who won't be reimbursed by this program at all. Personally, I wouldn't mind but I also know a lot of people probably do, which makes the viability of this plan suspect.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Response to BeyondGeography (Original post)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 03:32 PM

mike_c (35,417 posts)

63. Everyone who NEEDS loan relief should get it, IMO.

That would exclude some people already wealthy enough to afford the cost of attendance, those who have already repaid their loans, and those who did not go to college at all. Don't forget that those people might still benefit going forward if they or their children enroll at a free or low cost university later. I went to college in my 30s, so if similar loan relief/ low cost public universities legislation had happened before I went to school I would not have benefited until later. That's not unfair. It's life.

Edit: And just because some people might benefit less than others, that doesn't mean we should not do what's best for those who will benefit.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided

Reply to this post

Response to mike_c (Reply #63)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 07:43 PM

MichMan (9,061 posts)

87. How does one define who actually "needs" relief ?

Those that can't pay ?

Those who can afford to pay, but don't want to?

Those who borrowed the max allowable and spent some of it frivolously?

Those who dropped out?

Those who selected expensive colleges?

Those who chose low paying fields of study?

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided

Reply to this post

Response to MichMan (Reply #87)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 08:19 PM

squirecam (2,706 posts)

91. These are all good questions

That won’t be answered

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

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Response to MichMan (Reply #87)

Sat Jan 25, 2020, 12:23 PM

killaphill (212 posts)

95. Just because the questions are difficult....

It doesn’t mean we shouldn’t seek to answer them. This is very similar to reparations for slavery. Of course they should be paid. And figuring out who would be eligible for what would be difficult. But it can be done.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Response to MichMan (Reply #87)

Sat Jan 25, 2020, 10:30 PM

mike_c (35,417 posts)

97. There seems to be a lot of people that you're mad at.

I prefer Senator Sanders approach of simply forgiving all student loan debts, in part because it sidesteps ethically perilous choices like who is deserving and who is not. As I understand Senator Warren's proposal it would limit loan relief over some threshold of personal income. But please understand that the entire student loan industry was predatory for decades. It had to be to attract private investors to unsecured education loans back in the 1980s and 1990s. So regardless of their ability to repay their loans, wealthy students were also harmed by the harsh terms of their loans. Those loans were unethical across the board, and no amount of personal wealth can change that.

So yeah, everyone with student loan debt needs debt relief AND we need to reform the way we finance higher education so that students in the future will not have to be saddled with a lifetime of debt at the very beginning of their lives.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided

Reply to this post

Response to BeyondGeography (Original post)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 07:52 PM

dsc (51,671 posts)

89. That is totally absurd

No one got a windfall from Social Security. People paid in and then got money out. In this case, you have two people, one who worked hard, saved money, maybe raided his retirement fund so he could send his kid to school and not have the kid be in debt and another who did none of those things. You are now going to tax both of them, to give a six figure windfall to the second person and not one cent to the first.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Response to dsc (Reply #89)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 08:40 PM

squirecam (2,706 posts)

92. It will never pass

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

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Response to dsc (Reply #89)

Sat Jan 25, 2020, 10:44 PM

mike_c (35,417 posts)

98. life isn't always fair to everyone...

...but that doesn't mean we shouldn't do what we can for those we can do for. That is why everyone finances public schools whether they have school aged children or not. I would happily pay taxes to provide relief where we can, instead of endless wars for endless profits. The argument that we shouldn't have to help support people who we think made poor decisions is unworthy of Democrats, IMO.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided

Reply to this post

Response to BeyondGeography (Original post)

Fri Jan 24, 2020, 07:58 PM

totodeinhere (12,718 posts)

90. Doesn't Elizabeth's proposal have a means test? Won't the very rich be ineligible for student loan

debt relief? I actually support that idea myself. I think that my candidate, Bernie Sanders, wants to give it to everybody regardless of means. But I'm pretty sure that if Congress were to pass a law with a means test Bernie would sign it.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

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Response to BeyondGeography (Original post)

Sat Jan 25, 2020, 09:39 AM

Recursion (56,552 posts)

94. No, the unfairness is that it's a lot of money going to some very well-off people

We generally don't like huge Federal programs that are regressive, and student loan relief is hella regressive. I know Americans hate when people call us out as not being poor, but college graduates pretty much universally are doing much better than non-college-graduates. (And if they're not, well, that's why there's income based repayment and time-based forgiveness.)

It would be much, much better for society and the economy to take that trillion dollars and expand Medicaid with it, or increase the number of bus routes and buses running on them, or expand SNAP.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden

Reply to this post

Response to BeyondGeography (Original post)

Sat Jan 25, 2020, 02:49 PM

former9thward (28,541 posts)

96. Actually she is wrong on the facts.

Previous generations before the law was enacted in 1935 did not get SS but they did not pay into it either. Social Security began taxing employers and employees in Jan 1937 but did not begin paying out monthly payments until Jan. 1940. The only people getting SS paid into it. Nobody got it for "free". Completely different than people who previously paid off their student debt.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided

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