Fine I'll admit it. Bernie Sanders is pandering to me.

[Tiggeroshii]

I'm an 18-35 year old with more than 10,000 dollars in student debt. Bernie's pandering to me because he thinks I shouldn't live the rest of my life carrying that debt. He's pandering to me by trying to solve this problem that directly effects me.

I'm a resident of a state with one of the worst onslaught of wildfires in the last 3 years than any other place in the country. His plan on climate change is going to allocate the most resources and most immediacy to this problem than any other plan there. Bernie is pandering to me because he thinks that my generation and younger generations shouldn't have to live in a world that is burning and drowning because we are going to wait until after climate change has taken it's toll to START to address it.

I'm a husband whose wife was charged 200 dollars the other day for an inhaler that will keep her alive because she didn't have the correct prescription drug insurance, despite paying for the most expensive medical insurance plan that her employer has to offer. Bernie is pandering to me because he doesn't think that my wife should die if she doesn't have 200 dollars because we live paycheck to paycheck.

I'm middle class and underwater in my bills because hours are being cut in my business, and I am having to shift careers by going back to school again. Bernie is pandering to me because he thinks I should be able to do this without going bankrupt, and is proposing free public higher education for this purpose.

I am a veteran. Bernie is pandering to me because he doesn't think that we should be spending unlimited amounts of money on endless wars where my friends came home disabled or dead.

I am a human being. Bernie is pandering to me because he thinks we should be living in a world without endless violence, where people who are sick are taken care of regardless of how much money they have, where you can get a decent education without paying for it the rest of your life, and where forest fires, pollution, institutional racism and poverty don't have to be regular, everyday aspects of our lives.

Hell, I just wish other candidates were able to pander to me as much as Bernie could. It might actually make things just a tad better!

[NJCher]

1. Said the writing teacher

Eloquent post.

[Tiggeroshii]

3. Thanks!

[CountAllVotes]

2. Was a Bernie supporter in 2012

And yeah, I still like the guy!

[pbmus]

4. We already have voted for a wizard of oz...

We cannot afford another one...

[Tiggeroshii]

5. We can't afford anything less than solving our problems now.

Doing anything else is ignoring the fierce urgency of now.

[KPN]

26. Oh that's right. We can only hope. Anything

else is quixotic.

[lapfog_1]

6. rainbows and ponies for everyone

Lets say Bernie gets nominated... chances he beats Trump are not so good... less than almost any other remaining candidate.

Now lets say he wins... ok...

Chances he passes this legislation package with all of the goodies you want... zero.

so we go through the next 4 years with absolutely no progress anywhere... ACA rots away and your wife's prescription inhalers get more expensive... that student debt is still there... and you job... your hours aren't coming back.

But hey... he pandered to you and you fell for it.

Almost as bad as the MAGAts falling for Trumps promises (reduce the deficit in 4 years, build a wall and Mexico will pay for it, a beautiful health care plan, no nukes in NK, much better trade deals - he only renamed NAFTA, oh, and a nice mid east peace plan and no more ISIS).

but you got the candidate you wanted... if only he was a dictator then maybe you would get your rainbows and ponies.

[Tiggeroshii]

7. Taking the minimum steps on global warming and

keeping people from dying of preventable illnesses is not "rainbows and ponies." And it is disgusting that people still try to equate basic human decency with fantasy.

[lapfog_1]

8. lets make progress

instead of taking our bat and ball and sulking because we cant get everything we want.

We elect someone who can actually improve the ACA and possibly get the cost of that inhaler down to something reasonable... and maybe takes SOME steps on climate change and maybe puts a program to reduce the interest on that student debt to 0 or near 0...

but that isn't good enough to an ideologue.

The way I see it, your vote for Bernie absolutely insures that things remain they way they are right now (but with reversals on a number of executive actions... which would happen no matter what from ANY of our Democratic candidates).

[Tiggeroshii]

11. You know what? We've tried it your way.

For eight years. Then we got a demagogue elected. Can we try it a different way now? Please? The fate of the world is sort of depending on it.

[KPN]

27. Not eight, forty. The GOP breaks all norms, pillages and

succeeds wildly in their aims over those 40 years. Result? Some of us argue “we can’t, it’s not possible, we can’t afford to do anything risky.”

Meanwhile, Roberts, Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, tRump, McConnell, expand drilling, export oil/gas, “adjunct” professorships with no security/benefits, best way to get ahead for most — join the military, no healthcare no problem there’s always the emergency room, the treasury plundered/deficit turbo boosted, ... you get it, the list goes on and on and on. But let’s do more of the same is “realistic”. We’re the tinker bells?

[JudyM]

47. This. We have to fight our way back, and fight hard to make up lost ground. Not inches, but miles.

[KPN]

61. ....

[Tiggeroshii]

60. Thanks KPN!

[BannonsLiver]

28. Ah yes those terrible Obama years.

[NCProgressive]

37. lol

[squirecam]

40. Best president in my lifetime

Nt

[Skidmore]

42. We got a demagogue cheating his way into office

because billionaire families invested big money in establishing the Tea Party and an infrastructure to support their grievance culture while suppressing and stealing votes. I don't think they planned for a Trump and he stole their power base while placating them.

Now why should we support another demagogue, and one who is interested only stripping away the power we hold instead of building on it? Sanders can command a crowd but lacks the skills needed to lead a nation, IMHO.

[awesomerwb1]

53. Wow

Guess who helped get trump elected? Your guys did. So don't come tell us how bad the Obama years were (implied by saying "we tried it your way for 8 years&quot ....

If Bernie is so different, and the Obama eight years were so bad, then why does God Bernie keep coming to the Democratic party every time he runs for president?

Cults are not good bro.

[Midnightwalk]

55. We had control 10 years out of 52

Sporadically. Almost 2 years under Obama, 4 under clinton, 4 under carter.

Last two times we had a strong push from the left were 2016 and 2000. Didn’t exactly work out either time. Lot’s of other reasons but I believe in looking at all the reasons for failure not just “only the important one”.

And I hate it. I want universal healthcare. I want no cost or low cost college education. I want unions and a high minimum wage or guaranteed income.

But what states have voted for those policies? Only in states we hold and even then only subsets of policy that don’t go as far

And the arguments I hear back are completely dismissive. The revolution is just around the corner. Again. We didn’t wish hard enough. Don’t worry at all about cost because the idiot republicans passed a tax cut and increased military spending. Ok that makes me mad at republicans first but it’s still a bullshit response.

I’m tired of being lectured on the existence or nirvana. I’ve been sold for decades but the only path acceptable is walking in the straightest line possible which might go directly off a cliff. Again.

[Happy Hoosier]

33. That's great rhetoric, but...

... it doesn’t change the fact that his policies won’t pass unaltered. And let’s face it, Bernie has not shown the people skills to build a coalition big enough to get it passed. Warren, maybe, but frankly, Bernie has poked a lot of people in the eye. It’s hard to build a friendship with folks you’ve called intellectually bankrupt and whose campaign has derided as corrupt. I half want to see him get the nom and get elected just so I can say I told you so.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

51. THIS!!!

Bernie/Elizabeth or Elizabeth/Bernie 2020!!
Either way, they're stronger together & can't be bought!!
Jump on the Bernie Bandwagon & join The Revolution!!

[Turin_C3PO]

9. I'm not for Bernie

because I don’t think he can win the general. But saying that the things the OP wants are “rainbows and ponies” is ridiculous and dismissive.

[lapfog_1]

10. and you forgot to say accurate

tell me please... which of the programs mentioned will pass a 61 vote margin in the Senate... even if we take control of it?

I'll wait.

[Tiggeroshii]

12. Student loan forgiveness does not require the legislature.

[lapfog_1]

14. so... let's see

we should forgive the student loans why?

There are a lot of us that went to college before the current crop... let's take me for example...

I was offered a partial scholarship to MIT... or a full scholarship to the University of Kansas. That scholarship included a student loan to pay for living expenses and a scholarship for tuition and books. Fine... after 1 semester I decided to not load my self up with debt (my parents were poor so I wasn't expecting them to help)... I got a half time job and started paying my own living costs... which meant I spent 6 years to complete enough credits to graduate... but I did, and I was debt free.

so why should I pay tax dollars so that 20 somethings that took on $60,000 dollars of student debt get a fee ride out of tax dollars that I pay now?

Explain how this is fair?

You think I am the only person over 30 that feels this way... I don't mind if we charge them 0 interest... I don't mind if they take 40 years to pay it off... but why should anyone, especially people better off by a long shot than me when I went to college... get a free ride on my tax dollars.

[Tiggeroshii]

15. So because you dont benefit from it, then nobody else should?

That doesnt make a whole lot of sense. With that logic we should have never given people va loans because veterans before them never benefited from it, or social security or Medicare. Heck we should not do any program that is beneficial to large amounts of people because that means somebody might not have benefitted from it. Heck let's just not even try...

[Happy Hoosier]

34. We've had This argument in another thread....

... but the problem is that a lot of folks (like me) have made significant family sacrifices in order to save for college. My neighbor complaining about his kid’s student loans? The newest, biggest TV every two years, and a new car every five. Yeah, I am going to be upset if his choices are validated and mine are pissed on. Bermie’s plan needs a lot of work...

[wackadoo wabbit]

17. Indeed, let's see

My husband died just two months after the ACA came into effect, but, alas, it was too late for him. He'd needed a bone marrow transplant, but our previous insurance -- for which we paid $1600 per month for the two of us -- wouldn't cover one, and they weren't required to. The ACA changed that for subsequent patients: now all insurance companies are required to cover procedures such as bone marrow transplants.

But wait! He didn't get to have a transplant, so why should people today get one. That's not fair!


I shouldn't need to put a "sarcasm" tag on this -- I'm obviously being sarcastic -- but this is exactly what you said, just with a slightly different set of circumstances (student loans = bone marrow transplant).

I welcome and, indeed, relish the idea that things can be better for subsequent people. Isn't that a progressive ideal? That we work to improve the lives of those who come after us?

I had student loans. If younger people today can have those loans forgiven, then wonderful, I say.

[KPN]

30. [phone]

[KPN]

29. What?! Yikes. No wonder we have problems.

Identical story here — only I mostly worked to pay for my education, only a few small scholarships. Let’s stop strangling our future. Get rid of the fucking parasitic educational finance system that is crippling the futures of current and future American adults. Relieve their debt — now! We are the wealthiest nation in history and on earth for crying out loud. That’s a fact, not a pipe dream. Our economy would only benefit by relieving the student debt. Our economy would only benefit by making education not just affordable but a public good. Do it or at least shoot for it now!

[lapfog_1]

49. We are NOT the wealthiest nation on earth

We currently have a 22 trillion dollar debt. Not including obligations into the future.

The CBO just announced that for the next 10 years we we add at least 10 trillion more.

320,000,000 people. 32 trillion. $100,000 per person, $400,000 for a family of four

The repulse have set us up... They tax cut every time they get a chance... And leave it to the Democratic presidents to try and clean it up. Their idea once upon a time was to shrink the federal budget enough so they could "drown it in a bathtub". But that is not the game now... Now it is simply to bankrupt the rest of us while the 1 percent escape with the money. You all think we are going to tax the 1 percent to pay for everything... I got news... They will not pay those taxes... Ever. Wealth tax or income tax or investment tax. They will not pay

That leaves the rest of us holding the bag... Eventually the world will cut up our collective credit card. And that will be the start of the worst depression ever seen. You think populist dictators like trump are bad now... Wait until you see what we get from that era. Germany had a similar situation in the 1920s. They tried to inflate their way out of it... And that brought them hitler.

[Turin_C3PO]

13. Shoot for the stars

and then negotiate downwards from there. Of course we won’t likely get anything more than incremental change. But it’s important to start out with our big plans and work from there.

[treestar]

73. anyone who really wants those things should be working on

Senate campaigns right now. It won't matter which Democrat is President. They would all sign a bill for those things. The problem is getting it out of Congress, especially the Senate. So concentrating on Bernie is pointless.

And thinking Bernie will just magically get the Senate to agree to it with the bully pulpit is simple-minded. The bully pulpit does not create a dictatorship out of the Presidency. Bernie is not popular with his colleagues and they are not going to be impressed by him to the extent his followers are (they seem to appear to think once in the Oval, Bernie will be able to convince anyone of anything, as if the Senate never met him before).

Those things are very out of reach in this nation which, due to the Senate, can be held back by a rural minority. The filibuster just adds to that. That body can stop anything even if the majority want it. A Senate made up of Bernies, or even Bidens or Harrises for that matter, will take a long, road of hard work. It will involve convincing states like Alabama and Arkansas and South Carolina. That's not going to be easy.

[Hav]

16. I hope Bernie doesn't win the nomination and

I'd say there is overlap on the issues with the other candidates but these were damn fine and honest reasons to support him if you believe he can deliver on those subjects (and I also believe many of these goals are realistic).

[Lexblues]

18. Do something to earn loan forgiveness!

I have loans too. Sure, I'd love to have them forgiven but I don't think I should be given a blank slate without something in return. I'd be glad to do community service or something. I don't feel entitled to be given free loans for absolutely nothing while my older siblings paid their off through hard work.

[Tiggeroshii]

19. The problem is bigger than yours or my individual loans.

The problem is about whether we are capable of paying our loans(most of us arent and defer them or do an income based repayment), and the unscrupulous practice of packaging them into investment assets with no actual value or negative value, potentially endangering the entire economy when that value is actualized.

[Lexblues]

20. Well we aren't forced to sign up for them

It's not required. We signed up for them to pay them back. I just don't think there should be forgiveness without something in return. It's very divisive on a micro scale. You're talking in a macro scale and most people don't operate on that plain. Voters feel offended that they had to pay off their shit and we in my generation get off scot free. Bernie's plan needs to be reworked.

[Tiggeroshii]

21. I think it is absurd to think something shouldn't be done simply

Because it didn't benefit me. I dont disagree with you entirely about other plans or options that could work, but they just dont seem to exist at the moment -sans certain military contracts and loan reduction through national service commitments.

[Happy Hoosier]

38. It's not just about it not benefiting a particular person....

I made choices in my life to fund my daughter's education. My neighbor chose not to do that and take out loans instead. He used his money to fund a rather more lavish lifestyle. I admit to a sense of grievance if he basically gets that decision validated, I'm left holding the bag. There has to be some filter on this. I'm think a better place to start would be be no interest loans, and expanded Fenderal grants (including grants that can be applied for post-graduation). Eliminating interest on loans would be a huge boon.

[squirecam]

41. I'd like to have a full and fair discussion on this...

But it requires some personal info.

Did you go to a state school? In or out? Private or public?

What degree did you get? Why did you choose that major?

When did you serve? Did you get any aid for college through service?

What is your interest rate and repayment options?

You mentioned going back to school? What new degree are you seeking?

[PandoraAwakened]

64. I think this is where the "not fair" crowd falters.

One of the biggest problems with the "not fair" argument (beyond the more important one about having a better chance of saving our democracy with a well-educated populace) is that the "not fair" crowd is comparing apples and oranges.

They think it's the same as when they went through the motions either for themselves or their own children. They are, by and large, woefully uninformed about the collusion between higher education and the student loan industry that have driven costs to ridiculous figures, all of which would gobsmack them senseless if they actually looked under the hood.

I have yet to see anyone on the "not fair" side of the fence also pointing out the decidedly unfair and unscrupulous practices that today's students are subjected to regarding debt accumulation...apples and oranges.

[squirecam]

68. This is nonsense.

When I left law school, my guaranteed base salary after taxes was $400 a week. Every dollar above that was just potential, depending upon collections.

My school loans and rent was $1600.

That means I’ve got no money for car maintenance, electricity. No gas. No food. Let alone entertainment.

I had to get a line of credit. And use that to eat. And pay that down whenever I did manage to get money. Which then allowed me to borrow more, just to continue to live.

Life wasn’t great. But no one forced me to go to law school. No one forced me to take out loans.

The youth of today have the same trials all of us have had. It isn’t unique.

And if you say “no one should live that way...” well, no one is forcing you too.

But these are choices you make when you agree to get a loan. You agree to pay it back. And you should determine FIRST what your prospects are before you ever take out a loan. Law students should clearly know that not everyone graduating will pass the bar, or get a high paying job.

[PandoraAwakened]

71. No, my informed opinion is not "nonsense." However, this is:

You said, "The youth of today have the same trials all of us had."

You do realize this is a statement that has never been true for any generation in the entire history of civilization, right?

Don't mean to burst anybody's bubble, but interestingly enough, not only is every generation unique, but so is every individual. Yes, I know, a groundbreaking, novel, mind blowing notion! Wow!

[squirecam]

72. You are correct

I take it back.

Prior generations didn’t have civil rights, some were slaves, medical care was non existent, and diseases were rampant. Technology was in its infancy or too expensive.

Things are much easier today by comparison.

Thank you for correcting me.

[samnsara]

25. we ALL had student loans. For many of us it was the first mjor financial decison of our lives..

.. I was a single parent so I got a little break. I was on the Deans list so I got few scholarships. Loan were 2-3%. My friend got her entire Pharmacy degree loan forgiven for working in an under served area. I never expected a free education and I never demanded one.

[Skittles]

22. I still cannot believe we are arguing....

between Joe and Bernie

[NurseJackie]

23. Don't be fooled. He's making pie in the sky promises.

Any candidate can pander and read from a laundry list of "everything that's wrong with the world". Fortunately our party's nominee won't be someone like that, because there are rational and intelligent people who can see right through pandering and empty unfunded promises. The mature and reasonable adults know that we're not choosing a dictator or king, and that whoever we do choose will need to be someone who is willing to compromise in order to progress. The smart voters will choose someone who isn't too proud to work with others to find common ground, who believes that it serves no good purpose to approach politics with an "all or nothing" philosophy; and who doesn't put their own ego above others. It may be feel flattering to be pandered to, but it's meaningless. There will be no "revolution" in the way that's being described. If someone wants change... any change at all... then it's going to be when we have a candidate who knows how to compromise and who is willing to accept a little less (rather than make a ridiculous "boast" about "holding firm" and coming back with ABSOLUTELY NOTHING). The experienced adult voters understand how things actually work in the real world.

[samnsara]

24. if trump* wins...you can forget about ALL of that.. probably forever.

[NCProgressive]

31. Aha! So you want to benefit by $10K and want other people to pay for it!!

[NurseJackie]

35. I've had a loan for OVER 10K before and I paid it off in about six years.

I've had a loan for OVER 10K before and I paid it off in about six years. And I was also living paycheck-to-paycheck, hand to mouth. Why should it take "forever" to pay off a 10K loan? I always presumed that student loans were an actual loan, with a fixed payment and fixed interest. Some folks make it sound as though student loans like having that much debt on a revolving charge card... is that the case? Does the loan amount actually grow and grow and grow... or remain constant... over time (similar to having a big credit card debt and only making the bare minimum payment month after month)?

[NCProgressive]

36. Actually, there are several ways one can pay off the loans

1. If allowed, work in an underprivileged area for 2-3 years and the debt is forgiven.
2. Serve in the military for a 2-5 year commission and the debt is forgiven.
3. Choose an income-based repayment plan where a fixed % of one's income is taken towards the loan (about 5%) and the loan is written off after 15 or 20 years (depending upon when it was signed for.)

Student loans are not a "crisis" and Sanders should know it. This program is to pander to the young voters who have dreams of not having any debt. (And more money to buy kegs at frat parties)

[greatauntoftriplets]

39. A family connection took option 1.

He's an M.D. and worked in an under-served community for a number of years. Now he has his own practice in an area of his own choosing.

[Tiggeroshii]

63. They are actually looking like a gigantic crisis

https://www.npr.org/2019/12/09/785527874/student-loans-a-lot-like-the-subprime-mortgage-debacle-watchdog-says


The question is: This time are we going to bail out the banks or the people?

[CentralMass]

32. K&R

[squirecam]

46. I'd like to know more

Please see post 41 for basic questions if you are willing to answer.

[squirecam]

56. Whelp

Nt

[brooklynite]

44. I don't care if he panders; I care if he loses so he can't deliver on the pandering...

[totodeinhere]

50. Well of course. We should care if our eventual nominee loses to Trump no matter who she or he may be

So we need to work our butts off to make sure that doesn't happen.

[brooklynite]

57. Yes, but some candidates have a greater likelihood of losing than others...

...based on my 40 years of political experience. And a candidate who has half the Party support that he did four years ago falls into that category.

[scheming daemons]

45. When he loses to Trump, you will get NOTHING on your wish list.

Beating Trump is the *ONLY* priority that matters.


Bernie is a general election disaster for Democrats... and not just in the Presidential race. Negative coattails down ballot too.

[LanternWaste]

48. His pandering and triangulation are effective tools of a career politician.

He knows both his base and his position with them very well.

[LakeArenal]

54. Not one thing any candidate wouldn't want.

Everyone may disagree how we get there.
How we pay for it and which things are more immediate than others.

But I do agree with the “ poked in the eye”
Analogy? Metaphor? Simile?

[Demsrule86]

58. Hey I like you and we have great discussions...but I am done with Bernie Sanders in the primary.

He gets my vote only in a general. I was pissed about Rogan...but this new hire Matt Orfalea ...that's it. He gets my vote in a general...period. So while I understand where you are coming from...Sander isn't the guy we need to fix this. You a hire a person like this and he had to know who this guy is...I have a wet dream...are you kidding...what the fuck is Sanders thinking.

[Tiggeroshii]

59. He was fired, no?

https://www.foxnews.com/media/bernie-sanders-video-creator-hired-fired-problematic-youtube

Thanks Demsrule! I like you too, and definitely agree on our discussions -even if we disagree on the candidate. The first thing I did when I read your comment was google the person. Is that link accurate? I Know nothing about the person.

[Demsrule86]

67. It is too much for me...they had to know who he was and then she liked his video.

Voting starts soon and we shall see what happens. Have a great evening.

[Tiggeroshii]

69. Thanks! You too!

[Uncle Joe]

62. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread Tiggeroshii.

[The Revolution]

65. $10K for life?

Sorry to stick on this one point, but it's a little unclear to me why you would have $10,000 or so in student loan debt for life. Even under current repayment plans (which need revising), income based repayment plans are available that should end after 20 or 25 years and the rest is forgiven. I would definitely suggest looking into those. My wife is currently enrolled in such a plan and has many times that level of student debt, and I don't expect us to have that forever.

Take a look at Biden's ideas. A quick search turned up this for me: https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2019/10/10/biden-student-loans/#37cc61246bbf

As to a couple other points:
-We've probably already missed the boat on climate change. Anyone alive today is likely going to be stuck with the consequences for the rest of their lives, even if we do make changes. Not that we shouldn't address this, but I wouldn't call this pandering.

-Healthcare costs are of out of control. I don't disagree that a single payer or even completely nationalized system is where we should be headed. I just don't think it will get through the Senate right now. A public option will be hard enough. Also you might want to see if another health plan other than the "most expensive" would work better for you. For us, we use my company's high deductible plan because it works out better for us overall.

[Tiggeroshii]

66. More.

I am not comfortable giving the exact amount on here, but it is (far more) than 10,000

That being said, even 10000 can keep someone down for life if they do not make a living wage. Interest is often above 6 or 7 percent after the first few years.

[David__77]

70. Thanks for your post.

...