Democratic Primaries
Related: About this forumWhat's wrong with tuition-free college?
Last edited Fri Feb 7, 2020, 01:45 PM - Edit history (2)
Fewer than 60% of college students graduate.
Over 40% of those who do graduate are under-employed.
Yang's plan to offer free or nearly free community college and trade school makes so much more sense.
https://www.yang2020.com/policies/close-skills-gap-community-college
Edit: since the wording was so distracting I edited it.
The point is, forking out billions to pay for something that many don't even use is maybe not the best plan?
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Rider3
(919 posts)I believe education should be free, just like healthcare should be. It's the greed and ignorance of others that's preventing us from getting these programs. I'd rather give a chunk of my pay to ensure that I get all my healthcare and education. Right now, I'm paying off HUGE sums of school debt, as well as medical debt when my husband nearly got killed last March in a freak motorcycle accident. It only takes 1 second, and your life can change. Mine did. I'll never get out of debt between school and medical expenses.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
redqueen
(115,096 posts)so that 60% can just drop out?
That makes sense?
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
samnsara
(17,572 posts)..before they even graduate HS..so they graduate as a college Sophomore right from HS. We have this very program in our state, called Running Start and I'm sure there are many HS's with the same. Id like to see more of this..
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
squirecam
(2,706 posts)Is referring to them. The 60% that dont graduate are not usually those with college aspirations in high school that are taking college prep courses.
The 60% likely refers to those who want the college experience and not the degree.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
pnwmom
(108,925 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
squirecam
(2,706 posts)Is much different tuition wise from out of state college.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
pnwmom
(108,925 posts)However, an argument can be made for states paying for their own students, not everyone else's.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
squirecam
(2,706 posts)Want to make community and tech schools affordable for everyone.
Its only two that want free college for everyone. And without any restrictions such as GPA or public service or military service, etc.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
exboyfil
(17,857 posts)Did it on my own, but some of the classes were paid for through PSEO when the high school did not offer the course.
If they did the AP grind in high school, they would have barely shaved off one year.
What my older daughter did to do 2+2 for her mechanical engineering degree could not be duplicated now because the engineering courses offered online are no longer being offered. She would be a 2+3 now.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
underpants
(182,284 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
redqueen
(115,096 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
jmg257
(11,996 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Walleye
(30,729 posts)I attended Los Angeles City College in the early 70s. The total cost was $6.50 a semester for the student union card. Took some very interesting classes and learned a skill for a job. Damn conservatives and their anti-government crap.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
SharonAnn
(13,767 posts)That is by far the biggest cause.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
MichMan
(11,790 posts)College costs dont seem to be any cheaper in one vs the other.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
MichMan
(11,790 posts)they wanted regardless of cost as someone else is paying. No reason to select a more affordable college when you can go to the biggest and best instead.
I would expect current tuition costs to double or triple. With all the promises about free college, I have heard no one actually address why it cost so much
Let's say for example, anyone who wanted one could have a "free" car. Would anyone choose a base model Kia with no options or would they all want a loaded luxury model with all the hi tech features and gadgets?
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
JoeOtterbein
(7,698 posts)...jealousy that another may receive more than they.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
squirecam
(2,706 posts)Given that Yang wants to give everyone $1000 instead.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
redqueen
(115,096 posts)are unpopular with some voters. I'm just talking about numbers.
Once we've addressed the skyrocketing cost of college tuition, funding free college for all will make sense.
As of now, it's frankly a reckless idea imo
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
scheming daemons
(25,487 posts)The money comes from somewhere. You have to define where that is.
Professors/teachers don't work for free. We want them paid what they're worth, we have to fund it from somewhere.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
redqueen
(115,096 posts)is already familiar with reality.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
squirecam
(2,706 posts)Nt
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"Some are. Some arent (sic)"
Most are. A handful pretend they don't.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)The "nothing is free" meme is worn out, irrelevant and not something that anyone takes seriously unless it's used just as a quick, meaningless jab.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
scheming daemons
(25,487 posts)I like Liz's wealth tax idea.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Ghost Dog
(16,881 posts)and often thick children of the rich.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
squirecam
(2,706 posts)Nt
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
redqueen
(115,096 posts)In the UK the slang usage of thick means angry. Here it means dumb.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Ghost Dog
(16,881 posts)or as a brick, we say.
(Not angry: stupid. Not dumb: that means unable to vocalise, mute).
I dig language
Edit: "Thick as thieves", however, means in close conspiracy, and implies a degree of (dangerous) intelligence.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
redqueen
(115,096 posts)I do too
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Ghost Dog
(16,881 posts)in the few years I lived in the County Clare.
The English spoken in Ireland is, generally, of a much higher quality than that of England itself, as is well known.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
redqueen
(115,096 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Ghost Dog
(16,881 posts)... Observe, I recommend, the process leading to Scotland's independence from now on (breakup of the UK)!
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
JustABozoOnThisBus
(23,283 posts)Sometimes, the kids of the rich can be fairly cliquish, thick as thieves.
Like Kavanaugh and friends, gathering at Timmys for skis w/Judge, Tom, PJ, Bernie, Squi.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
UniteFightBack
(8,231 posts)for. Naturally people think about their taxes going up. So the framing is crucial ...college needs to be considered more like 13th and 14th grade etc...I think it can be much more easily sold if it is framed properly ..and of course we'd have to have a good salesperson to sell that.
Maybe a a compromise of people could pay something...even a nominal amount.
A token payment if you're really broke. Maybe take away the 'free' element from the opposition.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ibegurpard
(16,685 posts)Nothing wrong with investing in higher education like we've invested in K-12 in modern times but it's not free and we need to make sure people understand that. Same as how government funded single payer healthcare is NOT free but there are trade-offs that people can understand.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Magoo48
(4,660 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
frazzled
(18,402 posts)Tuition is free for all four years at the University of Illinois for in-state residents whose families have incomes of $67,100 or less.
You must be a U.S. citizen or eligible noncitizen
Youre an Illinois resident (parents listed on the FAFSA are also Illinois residents)
Your family income is $67,100 or less
Your familys assets are $50,000 or less
Youre under the age of 24
Youre admitted as a new freshman or transfer student
You attended and graduated from an Illinois high school
You must be enrolled in a baccalaureate degree program for at least 12 hours during fall or spring semesters
https://osfa.illinois.edu/illinois-commitment/
Tuition is free at any one of the City Colleges of Chicago (community colleges) if you graduate from a Chicago Public School (and now several partner schools) with a 3.0 grade average and are college ready (get a score of 17 or higher on ACT math and English; or get 460 or higher on SAT English and 440 in math; or pass a "Completion" test). Full tuition and books covered for three years. Graduation rates in this program have been 80%.
http://pages.ccc.edu/apply/star/
I think states (and municipalities) need to initiate more of these programs before it is possible on the national level. After all, public higher education is under the purview of states and cities, not the federal government.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
redqueen
(115,096 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
exboyfil
(17,857 posts)or are the regional campuses also included? The reason I ask is that the entrance requirements to the flagship campus is very high (thus selecting out the students from less wealthy background - this is the same thing the prestigious privates are doing).
Also hasn't there been a recent scandal with kids leaving guardianship with their wealthy parents and having poorer guardians take over (family friends and other relatives).
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
frazzled
(18,402 posts)the main campus, but other of the regional campuses may have other programs. And I think the cheating thing has been addressed, once it was revealed.
But I take some exception to your suggestion that students from less wealthy backgrounds cannot meet the admission requirements. I may be taking it wrong, but it sounds like you might be referring to minority students. And I don't accept that poor or minority students are not capable of being high achievers.
It's true that middle and high schools in some minority neighborhoods don't offer the kind of educational instruction that kids need to be able to attend first-rate colleges and universities. But that is a whole different issue: we desperately need to improve our elementary and secondary schools. I remember years ago when my son was a student at the University of Chicago and signed onto a summer program to assist middle-school students in math. He and a fellow student worked with an 8th-grade kid from one of the worst middle schools in the city. But he said this kid was "absolutely brilliant": it was just that his school didn't offer any of the math that would be needed for an advanced high-school program. So they spent the summer getting him up to speed; and it worked. He would be attending a very good high school the following year. I hope he would be the kind of kid who would qualify for the free tuition.
Students without such bright futures can access the free tuition at community colleges, and hopefully get the credentials they need to transfer to another school to complete a full undergraduate degree.
But get this straight: none of the policies proposed by any of the candidates would help underserved kids to get into the best state schools. You still have to meet the entrance requirement at a given school, and not everyone will do that, by far. The REAL issue to me is improving El-Hi education in this country. Every kid has the ability to achieve, but not all of them are getting the educational start they need. And it can't be made-up for completely in the post-high-school environment.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
exboyfil
(17,857 posts)but look at the profile of even a prestigious public like Illinois - it does not represent the demographic of college students in general in regards to wealth. The reason is the barriers to poorer children meeting the requirements (not able to pay for testing services, parents less able to help students academically, pooer schools, etc).
I was the first person in my family to go to college, and I recognize how hard it can be. I barely made it out of Purdue, and I made many mistakes along the way. Someone with parents who knew what was going on would have helped me to avoid those mistakes. Competition at prestigious public universities like Illinois and Purdue has only gotten worse over the years. I think my daughter faced some greater challenges at Iowa State than I faced at Purdue, but she had me to help her (we both majored in Mechanical Engineering).
I can't imagine how hard it is for a poor kid who may only have one parent at home who has never gone to college. I am very supportive of mentoring programs for the disadvantaged and affirmative action. I probably would not have gotten into Purdue without some affirmative action myself (I came from Mississippi, and I understand they were trying for some regional balance at the time).
I have tutored some in math for high school kids. My daughter is also doing this.
My only point is, if a larger percentage of students accessed the tuition free income based program, then the university would have less resources to make such a program available. I hope a better representation of society does go to Illinois. It is an excellent school, and our nation would benefit from communities having wider access.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
frazzled
(18,402 posts)But making it free doesn't help make up for that lack of support.
I used to volunteer twice a week at my daughter's inner-city high school in what was called the "college and career center." We parents would help kids who came in, mostly with no clue, to look through all the college catalogues (the Internet was still in its infancy, so it was dead-tree catalogues still) and to help advise with appropriate choices, applications, scholarship opportunities, etc. I hope we were able to make up for some of the support they lacked.
I doubt that kind of thing is replicable on a large scale. But volunteers, along with hiring more counselors, could help. It's a massive issue, that permeates the whole system. It's not just one thing, and it doesn't start top down, with college.
I should mention that in the countries that have "free" university, it's still the same issue: not everyone gets to go to college; indeed only the top tier. Sometimes I think people have the wrong idea about what this all means. And there are other issues: how do we insure that institutions of higher learning can maintain their standards, pay their faculty and staff adequate salaries (and attract top faculty), maintain research facilities, etc. when tuition is capped by the federal government? History tells us that when states run into budget problems, higher education funding is always one of the first things to get cut. There's a reason tuitions rise (among other things). It's one reason why I sort of lean towards the idea that the wealthy should not get a prize of free tuition: their kids are more likely to qualify for the top schools in the first place, and we need that money for educational help at the primary and secondary levels ... so that more less-advantaged kids can get into these schools in the first place.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
MichMan
(11,790 posts)Their tuition most likely went up to make up for it.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
frazzled
(18,402 posts)which doesnt sound unreasonable.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
democratisphere
(17,235 posts)This idea of free will definitely lose elections. Somebody always has to pay for it! Always!
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
MoonlitKnight
(1,584 posts)Leaders put forth bold ideas and lead people to their positions. Leaders have a vision. Great leaders have a vision and an ability to govern and get things done.
That is my issue with Biden and Klobuchar. They are not exhibiting leadership by crapping on ideas such as this. They can govern and get things done, but can they lead? I have not seen them do so yet.
Yang has ideas but lacks an overall vision or ability to govern.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
democratisphere
(17,235 posts)This country is buried in debt and deficits. Sick of the BS Voodoo economics.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
MoonlitKnight
(1,584 posts)So expanding it will be a tax cut. People love tax cuts. Especially ones we say we are restoring that Trump took away.
Beat them at their own game.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
judeling
(1,086 posts)The Idea behind two year free with expanded granting is that it covers a much broader part of the educational landscape. This is especially true as technical degrees lose value rapidly and the need for retraining and refreshing grows. It allows for the expanding of the infrastructure to more areas of the country and immediately serves those most likely to be left out.
Its not as if four year programs are cut out, they merely change to incorporate the two year entrance. Your PHD now has an AA at the beginning.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
mr_lebowski
(33,643 posts)So is 'Student Debt Forgiveness'. So is 'Medicare for All', as it implies you MUST avail yourself of it. That's not going to fly.
There's way better names for these ideas.
'Tuition Support'
'Early Medicare Buy-In' (there's no question in my mind a radical transformation isn't in the cards, it must be done incrementally). Or 'Public Option'.
'Student Debt Reform'
There's some for ya ... those are the types of name the GOP would use ... if they were into this kinda stuff.
People like 'options' and 'reforms' and 'support' ... they don't like mandates, and they don't like the word 'free', when it's obviously NOT free.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
MoonlitKnight
(1,584 posts)Like when Sanders and Warren are asked if immigrants get free healthcare .
Yes, because they will be paying into it just like everyone else. Immigrants pay taxes. Undocumented immigrants pay taxes. Everyone pays taxes. The only ones who dont pay taxes are the mega corporations like Amazon. We are going to fix that. And even though the Supreme Court thinks they are people, Amazon wont get Medicare. But their hardworking and underpaid employees will.
Something like that.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Doremus
(7,261 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Doremus
(7,261 posts)I think Andrew Yang is a good man and if he somehow got the nomination I would proudly vote for him.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
MichMan
(11,790 posts)Due to the easy availability of student loans, as costs rose, students and parents kept borrowing more and more. Colleges realized that they could keep raising tuition and people would continue to keep borrowing. The costs would never go down until enrollments started dropping.
I cant imagine how high tuition costs will go if the government is the one paying for it.
K12 education has the local government owning and operating the schools with government employees and state/local funding. Colleges are set up nothing like this at all.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ibegurpard
(16,685 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Luciferous
(6,068 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Happy Hoosier
(7,083 posts)My daughter is headed off to Indiana University in the Fall....
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden