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[Firebrand Gary]

This message was self-deleted by its author (Firebrand Gary) on Sat Mar 7, 2020, 11:56 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[George II]

1. What homophobic dog whistle are you talking about? Did you see Michael Moore mocking Buttigieg....

....in his post debate interview?

[Firebrand Gary]

5. Here you go.

[George II]

10. I've seen that ad five or six times today, watched it through each time. Repeat, what homophobic....

....dog whistle are you talking about?

There are none.

Now, Michael Moore was blatant last night though:

https://www.mediaite.com/politics/watch-michael-moore-wave-hand-in-questionable-reenactment-of-pete-buttigieg-at-debate/

[George II]

64. How does it imply that Buttigieg is racist? And the OP claims that it's a homophobic dog whistle.

[Gothmog]

69. I am wondering about this also?

[UniteFightBack]

24. Crying wolf with slurs. If anything it's to make sure Pete stays at 0% with AA's. nt

[emmaverybo]

79. If he had wanted to do that he had plenty of ammo from Buttigieg's mayoral failures all the way

up to and including his Frederick Douglas plan roll-out. I think Buttigieg consigned himself to zero support starting some time ago.

PS AA voters do not like to be stereo-typed as homophobic because they can’t support you, Mayor Pete. They just can’t! For good reasons having nothing to do with your sexual orientation. All might not embrace it, as with many different types of groups throughout the US, but they’d have given you a fair shake if you’d given them one.

Now listen to your elders and grow the hell up before you run for the most powerful office in the land again!

[doc03]

39. Oh brother what a stretch nt

[William769]

50. That ad is nothing but childish and I thought beneath him. Guess I was wrong.

What disqualified him with me was his pledge no attacks on fellow Democrats. I have a major problem with man that's speaks with forked tongue.

[jimfields33]

55. I watched the video twice today

I especially paid attention the second time because as a gay guy, I’d want to see any form of homophobia taken down. But I see nothing homophobia at all.

[mahina]

60. Disagree

That’s no dog whistle. In my protective of LGTBQ allies’ opinion

[radical noodle]

74. I support Pete

but I fail to see anything homophobic about it. Perhaps I'm missing something.

I must admit, I like the fact that Pete made it easier to get pets chipped for ID... I didn't know that about him.

I sure would like it if they'd have ads against trump instead of one another, tho.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

76. Hard to watch, but only because Joe has chosen to go that negative, despite his pledge not to do so.

Bernie/Elizabeth or Elizabeth/Bernie 2020!!
Either way, they're stronger together & can't be bought!!
Jump on the Bernie Bandwagon & join The Revolution!!

[sheshe2]

104. Bernie called Warren a liar on the debate stage.

That is not negative?

[Haggis for Breakfast]

78. If you want to hear outrageous,

then listen to Franklin Graham's comments about Mayor Pete. Disgusting.

Graham uses the bible to justify his attacks. Well, you know what else the bible tells you, Frankie, don't eat shellfish, don't wear cloth made from two sources, don't plant one vegetable next to another, etc. Stop living your life according to a Bronze Age relic.

[Hermit-The-Prog]

114. huh?

The only thing I find objectionable at all about the ad is the minimizing of another Democratic candidate's record. Joe has enough experience he doesn't have to do that. Even with that, it's not a nasty attack, and I certainly don't hear any dog whistles in it.

[Gothmog]

68. Michael Moore was obnoxious

Link to tweet

[radical noodle]

75. I turned it off when he came on

so didn't see this before. It's disgusting.

[evertonfc]

2. The party

has so many coalitions the candidates offend weekly it seems

[Firebrand Gary]

9. Oh, I'm not offended

Pete’s a grown man running for President, he can and needs to defend himself. I am saying that I expect a better politician out of our candidates, and I bet there are a lot of people who agree.

[SWBTATTReg]

18. And Pete's been doing a pretty bang up job of defending himself. I am more and more...

impressed w/ him as each day goes on.

[Kurt V.]

52. i agree.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

77. You have a point Gary... respect!!

Bernie/Elizabeth or Elizabeth/Bernie 2020!!
Either way, they're stronger together & can't be bought!!
Jump on the Bernie Bandwagon & join The Revolution!!

[Pachamama]

3. What are you talking about?

[elleng]

28. Nothing much, imo,

but 'trouble.'

[Kurt V.]

57. by the looks of this thread, a lot.

[OhZone]

4. Naw-

I'm lesbian and, well I'm not a gay man, but I thought that contrasting his VP leadership guiding the nation vs small town leadership, made a point.

[George II]

12. My brother doesn't find it questionable or a "dog whistle" either. People have to make stuff up.

[Kurt V.]

56. i don't think its made up but i'll check with my sisters wife tomorrow. i could be wrong.

[BlueWI]

85. This fail of an ad snacks of white privilege

along with trivializing the work of local government leaders.

If you don't think it's white privilege, imagine candidate Obama putting in the lines about firing black employees.

Political instincts vary I guess.

[emulatorloo]

6. Smoking hot take. Congrats on that, I guess

Unrec for the rest of your post. The lights are “homophobic” is a real stretch,

I am more concerned about Sanders and Warren smearing Pete over fundraising, that should probably concern you as well.

[dem4decades]

7. If Biden is out say hello to Bloomberg

[Firebrand Gary]

11. Great! The BEST candidate should win.

I’m all for Amy, I think Bloomberg is running a great ship right now as well.

[dem4decades]

14. I like Pete but don't think he has the experience,. Small time major

Isn't that we need to go against evil.

[UniteFightBack]

26. +1000

[Demsrule86]

8. Seriously lame...Your candidate is done after New Hampshire ...maybe Nevada...less likely...with

3% AA vote, he is done in Carolina and on Super Tuesday.

[Cha]

20. Biden was a valued member of President Obama's TEAM..

There's no reason to call him "poor".

And. Joe Biden is NOT "homophobic". He was the one who wanted Gay Marriage.

[totodeinhere]

36. Very true. n/t

[emmaverybo]

80. Mahalo!!

[Cha]

23. Biden gets credit for pushing Obama on gay marriage

https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/national/article24770671.html

[Scurrilous]

41. You're repeating a Jill Stein voter Nina Turner slur.

That kinda takes the fire out of you brand.

[still_one]

44. +++

[still_one]

40. It isn't Mayor Pete that is done, it is some of his supposed supporters who spew bullshit

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

15. Piffle.

Also, nonsense, rubbish, balderdash and malarkey.

[mr_lebowski]

22. Also ... POPPYCOCK!

Cuz that's a great one ...

[2naSalit]

45. And Horsepucky too!

So there.

[emmaverybo]

81. Took the words right outta my mouth. Ha hah. No I ain't that clever, but I do agree 100 percent.

[Codeine]

97. Codswallop! nt

[OnDoutside]

16. Lol.

[Sloumeau]

17. This ad is obvlously saying that the stuff Biden did was bigger...

than what Mayor Pete has done. Colored lights are not specific to gay people. We put colored lights up in my home every Xmas, and none of my immediate family is gay. You are really stretching with this.

[Quixote1818]

19. I felt it was designed to just suggest he didn't have enough experience

I doubt if they meant anything more than that but I can see how if might be perceived as slightly homophobic. Probably one of those things no one critiquing the ad considered. But I see your point. I personally doubt that was what they were up to.

[Drunken Irishman]

21. Oh stop it. If Mayor Pete is going to be president, he'll have to answer for his experience.

And there's no way Biden's ad was homophobic lol

[Cha]

25. Biden gets credit for pushing Obama on gay marriage

https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/national/article24770671.html

[democrattotheend]

91. Which is why I can't believe he'd intend his ad to be a homophobic dog whistle

I get why some people say that, and coming from certain politicians (especially on the other side of the aisle), I'd say it may have been intended. But that doesn't seem like something Biden would do.

[UniteFightBack]

27. You need to SELF DELETE this SLANDER about Joe Biden. n

[FloridaBlues]

34. Agree!

[still_one]

47. I wouldn't count on it. This is pure meritless flamebait

[DarthDem]

106. Out of Many

All these attacks. Strange, as I'm reliably advised by various people on the website - coincidentally supporting other candidates - that Joe Biden's campaign is done or something. Not sure why anyone is still attacking a guy who's "done." Hm.

[emmaverybo]

83. Of all people, Joe. One of the most politically powerful straight male supporters. Many sat on

their hands. You can read any subtext into anything. This is slanderous!

[shenmue]

29. Hush

[Firebrand Gary]

33. I'm loving Amy! She's my number 2!

[Firebrand Gary]

31. Your offended tone tells me I'm right on the money.

Thank you

[Cha]

37. But you're not, Gary.. regardless of that post.. it has

nothing to do with Joe Biden.

I'm always sticking up for Pete.

[FloridaBlues]

32. What dog whistle, think your reading too much into the ad. Would you rather have heard ugly

Ugly overpriced? They were decorative and colorful, perhaps that's what the city council wanted.
Over the top criticism.

[doc03]

35. Got me stumped I watched the debates and never heard any dog whistle nt

[Garrett78]

38. Biden's in a tough spot. He can't finish too far behind Buttigieg. On the other hand...

...an argument can be made that he would benefit more from Buttigieg, as opposed to Sanders, winning New Hampshire.

If Sanders wins NH, Buttigieg comes in second and Biden is a distant third (or worse), Nevada will not go well for Biden. Next thing you know, he's struggling to hang on in South Carolina. Snowball effect.

Buttigieg's alienation of Black folks is keeping Biden's hopes alive, which is why Sanders losing New Hampshire would likely benefit Biden. Because if Buttigieg wins NH, the wind is taken out of the Sanders sail and Biden can still win South Carolina with ease. But if Sanders wins NH and then Nevada and Biden hasn't come anywhere close to winning in any of the first three contests, Biden is probably finished.

[Scurrilous]

43. Buttigieg is in single digits and not rising in after Nevada races.

We will see what happens..

But I'm pulling for him in NH.

[Garrett78]

48. The NV polls are old. Besides, if Buttigieg were to win NH or come in a close 2nd, while Biden...

...is a distant 3rd or 4th, Nevada polls will look a lot different than they do now.

Just like the NH polls are looking a lot different than they did pre-Iowa.

[Scurrilous]

51. Thanks.

Last edited Tue Feb 11, 2020, 05:10 AM - Edit history (1)

[Garrett78]

54. You're not addressing the point.

Each contest can rapidly and profoundly impact the following contest. As an example, Buttigieg is looking a lot better in New Hampshire than he did before Iowa.

By the way, how many of the polls you cite were taken within the last week?

[Scurrilous]

61. Pete went up in NH, Bernie down. Biden was 2 down from the week before., the rest not much change.

Bernie up again in latest NH.

No one is getting profound anything from the tiny white people go first states. Nate Silver is already doubting his whacky forecast.
Seriously. Fuck NH and Iowa, Why care how they vote.

I'm citing most recent polls. Those above were from last night, most recent. After Iowa where there were some.

I have more like this but I gotta go. Did this debate Tues. with someone and numbers didn't change much.

HailStateForever@PamChas2

Black people are not going to vote for anyone other than Biden in SC at the same rate. They are not focused on two white states, that exclude them. When Biden gets to my state, we will vote for him as well.

[Garrett78]

63. What are the dates on the polls you are citing?

For instance, what are the dates for the Alabama polls or the Texas polls?

Buttigieg has made substantial gains in NH since before IA when he was polling at around 12% in NH.

[Scurrilous]

92. boink

[Garrett78]

94. The only polls that aren't from well before the IA Caucus are the SC and NC ones.

And since the point of this discussion is that IA and NH (and the resulting narrative) always have an outsized influence, polls from January and earlier don't do us much good.

As for both the SC and NC polls, you can already see the impact IA has had.

[Scurrilous]

95. Yep.

Last edited Tue Feb 11, 2020, 05:12 AM - Edit history (1)

[Garrett78]

96. Most pre-Iowa polls had Buttigieg around 12. After Iowa, his numbers doubled. That's huge.

He's taken a bit of a hit post-debate.

The polls from the Carolinas, again, are the only recent polls of the ones you cited. And Biden's numbers (in both NC and SC) declined significantly post-Iowa. That's not a coincidence.

It may not seem right, but the fact of the matter is IA and NH (and the resulting narrative) always have an outsized influence.

[Scurrilous]

108. K&R

Last edited Tue Feb 11, 2020, 05:07 AM - Edit history (2)

[Garrett78]

110. You're either misunderstanding or misrepresenting.

It's not about winning both IA and NH. It's about winning at least 1 of the 2. Only once has someone from either party won the nomination without winning either IA or NH, and that was Clinton in '92. Every other nominee won at least 1 of those 2 contests.

And, as I've pointed out repeatedly, it was precisely Clinton's strong 2nd place finish in NH (behind Tsongas of MA) and the resulting "comeback kid" narrative that propelled him forward. And Iowa was essentially nullified that year by there being an Iowan in the race. The people who keep citing 1992 as evidence that Biden is not in trouble are actually hurting their own case.

[Scurrilous]

111. How did NH propel Clinton?

He didn't win a primary until Georgia, number 6. That was a slow propel. In fact his percentage went down the next two primaries. He won GA because he swept the south. Like Biden is going to do.

And you're forgetting '72 McGovern. Muskie won Iowa and NH.


Gotta go. I'll be back in AM.

[Garrett78]

112. The major impact of "comeback kid" Clinton's strong showing in NH in 1992 is well-known history.

There were 4 contests prior to Georgia and the rest of the mini-Super Tuesday contests.

As I wrote in another thread:

1992 is the exception that proves the rule, and it's not really much of an exception. Because IA was essentially nullified due to there being an Iowan in the race. And because Clinton was propelled forward precisely because of his very strong showing in NH (remember, Tsongas was from nearby MA) and the resulting "comeback kid" narrative.

Georgia was the biggest prize of that mini-Super Tuesday. In Maryland, Clinton once again finished a very strong 2nd behind Tsongas. Tsongas went on to leave the race in mid-March.

After what happened in NH, the only candidate who ever presented a serious challenge to Clinton was Brown, and that challenge was short-lived.

Clinton was finishing top 3 in nearly every contest leading up to Super Tuesday.

[Scurrilous]

115. I really have to go, I'm being yelled at. LOL

You keep forgetting McGovern. '72. Lost 49 states. And these magical powers you ascribe to NE and Iowa are goofy. It can't be because they're 1 and 2. The GOP mixes it up. Reagan, Dole, and McCain all won the nomination without winning the first two. And you're telling me Hillary's .3% margin of victory in Iowa was so important it won her the nomination? I say she got it because Bernie can't win in the South, Same as this year. Bernie can't win in the South. Biden can. No matter what happens in NH and Iowa both Buttigieg and Sanders will lose every state in the South.Bye.Manana.

[Garrett78]

116. You keep misrepresenting what people are saying.

Over the last 40 years, only 1 person from either party has won the nomination without winning *either* IA *or* NH. That 1 exception (that proves the rule) was Clinton in '92, and I've explained why he's not really much of an exception.

Nobody is saying that you have to win *both* IA and NH.

Furthermore, you citing polls that pre-date Iowa is completely irrelevant, since the whole point of this discussion is about the impact that IA and NH have historically had. So, yeah, polls taken before the Iowa Caucus don't play any role in this discussion.

[Scurrilous]

118. I'll leave you with this -

AVERAGE OF NATIONAL POLLS - The Economist (Feb. 7th)

"Since 1980 no Democratic candidate has won the nomination without winning a majority of African-American primary voters."

Black voter support -

Biden 48%

Sanders 12%

Buttigieg not listed so it has to be below Yang 3%

https://projects.economist.com/democratic-primaries-2020/

Bernie and Buttigieg will not win black vote.

And you keep forgetting McGovern. He won '72 nod without winning NH and Iowa.

[Garrett78]

121. Once again...

Over the last 40 years, only 1 person from either party has won the nomination without winning *either* IA *or* NH. That 1 exception (that proves the rule) was Clinton in '92, and I've explained why he's not really much of an exception. 

The Biden campaign, by all accounts, is very concerned. So, perhaps you should contact them and assure them that it's silly for them to be concerned, and that they should disregard what history says.

[Scurrilous]

117. LOL

Last edited Tue Feb 11, 2020, 05:09 AM - Edit history (1)

[Garrett78]

120. As I said, the only recent polls you cited are from SC and NC.

And the graphs for SC and NC on 538 show a decline for Biden post-Iowa.

[emmaverybo]

84. No wonder they want Biden out of the race soonest!

[Scurrilous]

93. Yep.

Game 1 and 3, hope 2 repeats 2016, rely on the media to hype tiny and white to death, and pray for a lemming-like reverse bumrush from Biden as all 2,107 journalists signed to cover the race shout in unison 'Jump, jump.' Bernie needs him out before S. Carolina. And the media craves a scalp. Expect a big push of this after NH.

Last night (paraphrasing from memory) during a interview w/ Biden: Concern Troll journalist: "But why, oh why behind in NH?" Biden: " Bernie won the goddamned who cares what they do 33 delegate nowheresville by 20 points in 2016 you idiot, go vote for Trump." *slightly embellished*

[Polybius]

99. Where are you getting these polls from?

The only polls the number one poll site in the world (RCP) has are NH.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/

[Scurrilous]

100. 538

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-primary-d/new-hampshire/

[Polybius]

113. From that link, the only recent ones are NH

Last poll for Florida was February 1st, Georgia November 19th, Alabama July 19th, etc. The ones you listed are not 24 hours old at all, or RCP would have had them listed.

[Scurrilous]

42. There was a weaker one last night so at least you are not most lamest.

Good luck next try.

[doc03]

46. You aint seen nothing yet wait till Trump hits him, it won't be a dog whistle

he can come out with the worst slander you can think of and his people will eat it up.

[underthematrix]

49. I thought Biden's comments were focused on Mayor Pete's lack of experience.

As an African American woman, I see Mayor Pete running for president as THE poster child for Jim Crow. No. He's not a racist. He's smart, great with the king's English but he's not qualified. He has never won a statewide race. So you have to ask why do white folks have such high standards when it comes to black people and such low standards when it comes to people who look like them? What are they really voting for?

[WA-03 Democrat]

59. Great point!

Thanks for posting!!

[emmaverybo]

86. Brilliant! When you put it THAT way...and no, his being gay is not equivalent. If anything, it has

given his ho hum candidacy and mediocre to majorly failed record a helpful historicity and made him seem progressive to many people when, in fact, he isn’t.

Now the novelty will begin to wear off.

[myohmy2]

53. WOW...

...I couldn't agree more...

[gollygee]

58. The ad is about how little experience he has had in comparison to Biden

I wasn't very impressed with the ad though. I already knew Pete had less experience. I'm interested in vision, how electable he is, etc.

[Squinch]

66. Oh, FFS. Maybe try a nice hobby. Knitting or birdwatching, perhaps.

[Gothmog]

67. Are you also upset at Michael Moore for his comments and acting?

Link to tweet

[Cha]

70. JHC.. wtf?

[Gothmog]

71. I am not a fan of Moore

The man tries to offend

[cwydro]

73. Ugh.

What an idiotic thing to do.

[Gothmog]

122. This picture.... I ...

Link to tweet

[TexasTowelie]

72. I think that all of the candidates have made statements that could be considered as attacks

by members in other camps. I'm definitely not going to conclude that all of the Democratic candidates should be disqualified though.

Vote your conscience. It will get sorted out over the next few weeks.

[Ferrets are Cool]

82. Why in the fuck do our candidates stoop to disparaging each other??????

Can't it be good enough to trash the real enemy and tell the American voters what you WILL do for them? FUCK THIS SHIT.

[highplainsdem]

87. It's BS that there was ANY "homophobic dog whistle" in that ad. As I pointed out

elsewhere, the standard word "decorative" was used by the South Bend Tribune in an article referring to those bricks

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1287&pid=489821

and the description of the lights is also very standard, and the company that did that project in South Bend quoted similar wording from a NYT piece on Buttigieg:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1287&pid=489892

Your accusation that the wording used in the Biden ad is somehow a "homophobic dog whistle" is a hell of a lot more outrageous than anything in the ad.

[democrattotheend]

90. I agree. I don't see a dog whistle

I was disappointed to see him go negative, but I don't think a homophobic dog whistle was intended.

[lunasun]

88. Pete's camp has already issued a reply to the ad, but they didn't say it disqualified Biden

I think he can handle criticism . Biden too

[Chemisse]

89. I see what you mean, but it's a bit of a stretch.

The blue lights might evoke a snicker from an already homophobic viewer, but nobody else is going to notice it for a slur at all. It's hard to know if it was meant to be one.

[The Mouth]

98. It's only a "dog whistle" when Republicans do it

[stonecutter357]

101. lol fail !

[apcalc]

102. What bullshit.

[stonecutter357]

103. ok comrade !

[nilesobek]

105. Biden is going to be hard to beat.

Obama and Biden were part of a winning team in 08 and 2012 and a lot of that winning was because of Biden.

It's borderline whether this is a slur or not. Biden could just be pointing out trivial frivolities in Pete's priorities list.

Biden has a huge lead on Super Tuesday. It will pretty much decide the race.

[DarthDem]

107. Please

Ah, another attack, and sort of a silly one too. Strange, as I'm reliably advised by various people on the website - coincidentally supporting other candidates - that Joe Biden's campaign is done or something. Not sure why anyone is still attacking a guy who's "done." Hm.

[AncientGeezer]

109. Yeah..umm..no not really.

[Recursion]

119. Well, the proof of the tree is in its eating

The primaries are the sine qua non of partywide coalition building. We'll find out soon if you're right or not.