Joe Biden should explain where his "Lying dog faced pony soldier" line came from.

[bluewater]

Did he just make that up?

Was it from some old movie?

If it was from a movie, who said that line?

Was Joe parroting old stereotypically racist dialog from some Western?

C'mon, Joe, please explain.

[Kurt V.]

1. he has said it was from john wayne movie. but so far no one has found such a

line in a wayne movie. he possibly misremembers the exact line.

[bluewater]

3. Does he say that if he remembers that line being spoken by a Native American character?

If it was, that would be a prime example of a stereotypical racist representation of Native Americans that was all too common in those ancient Western movies.

No Democratic Presidential candidate in 2020 should be parroting old racist dialog.

He really needs to clear that point up.

[Kurt V.]

7. here. its a pretty quick read.

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/02/joe-biden-calls-someone-a-lying-dog-faced-pony-soldier-for-the-second-time

[MH1]

18. Here. Already covered.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1287494411

(also provided downthread)

[mr_lebowski]

2. Using 'dog-faced' in any comment toward a woman is ummmm ... highly ill-advised in his position ...

Regardless of whether it's a legit quote from some old-ass movie or not.

Not good, Joe. I love ya, but ... not good.

[George II]

4. You've seen where it came from a few times this afternoon. How is that line "racist"?

[bluewater]

8. Biden claims an actor portraying a Native American said it in a movie.

Quoting stereotypical racist depictions and dialog of minority characters from old movies or TV shows is simply unacceptable. This is up there with the "feets don't fail me now" Amos and Andy type dialog from that racist TV show in the 1950's depicting African Americans.

We all have an obligation to call this out when we see this, especially from our politicians.



Thanks to the people in this thread for providing the background information about Biden's quote and where he says it came from.

[Beartracks]

9. I understand Amos & Andy to be full of stereotypes, but how is the "feet" thing racist?

Was "feet don't fail me now" used in a derogatory way or something?

Honest question. I didn't even know that phrase come from (or was used in) Amos & Andy.

===========

[bluewater]

10. It was physical over the top comedy and also mocking Black accents.

It was the clothes, the actor's posture, their physical movements, their accents, their grammar. That racists show grossly exaggerated and mocked all of those at the expense of African Americans.

Think minstrel show-like stuff.

[George II]

15. So I guess Eddie Murphy is a racist when he played "Buckwheat" and "Mr. Robinson" on SNL?

Quite a long stretch.

I suppose we should also burn "The Wizard of Oz", "Gone With The Wind", "The Godfather", etc.?

[bluewater]

19. Seriously, you are not trying to defend Amos and Andy now, are you?

A Black actor/comedian gets to be sarcastic and portray stereotypical black characters as Eddie Murphy has.

Don't you understand that?

It's why African Americans get to use the N-word and white people do not.

I am boggled at your attempt to equate the two situations.

Seriously, you are not trying to defend Amos and Andy now, are you?

That's going too far.

[George II]

20. Ah, so that's how it works. How about The Godfather? James Caan played Sonny Corleone....

....and used some "racist" language about Italians in the movie, but he is Jewish whose parents emigrated from Germany. So he's a racist.

[bluewater]

22. Ah, it is how it worked. Amos and Andy was racist as hell.

It was started as a radio show by two white actors "familiar with the minstrel tradition".

The minstrel show, or minstrelsy, was an American form of entertainment developed in the early 19th century. Each show consisted of comic skits, variety acts, dancing, and music performances that mocked people specifically of African descent. The shows were performed by white people in make-up or blackface for the purpose of playing the role of black people. There were also some African-American performers and all-black minstrel groups that formed and toured under the direction of white people. Minstrel shows lampooned black people as dim-witted,[1] lazy,[1] buffoonish,[1][2] superstitious, and happy-go-lucky.[1]

Trying to compare The Godfather to Amos and Andy is simply absurd.

But, yes, Italian Americans have been stereotyped in movies. But nowhere nearly to the degree African Americans, Asians and Native Americans have.

No Presidential candidate in 2020 should be repeating ANY stereotyping depictions or dialog in townhalls, Period. Full stop.

Biden should be embarrassed for doing so.

[George II]

24. Biden didn't repeat any stereotyping depictions or dialog. That line didn't refer....

...to anyone of any particular race based on anyone's race.

From what you're saying, I shouldn't repeat any of Eddie Murphy's lines from any of his characters on SNL? Do you remember this classic?

BTW, in The Jeffersons George Jefferson repeatedly referred to Lionel's girlfriend/wife as a "zebra" and made jokes about her interracial parents.

You're pushing this way too hard and in my mind it's not working.

[bluewater]

26. Biden said an "Indian Chief" said "lying dog faced pony soldier" in a movie

https://www.dailywire.com/news/watch-joe-biden-suggests-republican-lawmaker-ryan-saavedra

NOVEMBER 1ST, 2018
WATCH: Joe Biden Suggests Republican Lawmaker Should Get Beat Up

“As my brother, who loves to use lines from movies, a John Wayne movie, there’s a good line in a movie, a John Wayne movie where the Indian chief turns to John Wayne and says ‘this is a lying dog-faced pony soldier,'” Biden rambled.

Stereotypical racist depiction of minorities in movies is wrong.

Repeating those depictions and dialog is also racist and wrong.

It's that simply and should be easy to understand.

John Wayne was a self-professed white supremacist, so perhaps not quoting lines from his movies would be advisable in general.

[George II]

27. Not this morning. Over and done, until the tenth OP about this.

[whathehell]

12. Please..

We don't know it's a "stereotypical racist depiction". It might be best to hear from Native Americans themselves before making such an assumption..

[bluewater]

14. "Why I Won't Wear War Paint and Feathers in a Movie Again"

We all ready have heard from Native Americans about Westerns....

At some point, every Native American actor comes to a career crossroads and has to answer the question: Do I participate in stereotyping or maintain my cultural integrity?
As a Navajo man, I answered that question early in my acting career. Fresh out of Yale with a bachelor’s degree in film studies, I moved to Albuquerque in 2010 when the New Mexican film industry was booming. To build up my resume, I took on parts in various short films—including one memorable role as an “Indian” shaman.
Acting parts for Native Americans are few and far between, so I felt I couldn’t say no to the gig. But as I climbed into the feathered costume and began to apply “war paint” to my face, I began to feel very uncomfortable. Even though I’m not of a Plains tribe (as of 2013, the number of federally recognized tribes in the U.S. was 566), I knew that this kind of regalia was not meant for casual, every-day wear. For many tribes, including mine, feathers are sacred.
Related Stories

Looking at myself in the mirror in full costume, I felt shameful for mocking my spirituality. I promised myself I’d never play “Indian” again—and since then have turned down several auditions for big budget films.

https://time.com/3916680/native-american-hollywood-film/

How Hollywood has changed its portrayal of Native Americans over the years - and still frequently falls short.

https://www.sbs.com.au/guide/article/2017/10/11/evolution-native-american-representation-westerns

There's a lot more where that cam from, so, no, we don't have to "wait".

[whathehell]

21. So all Westerns, and, by extension, those quoting them, are 'racist" now?

My apologies to the PC Police, but I think I'll wait til Joe's numbers with Native Americans come in before I get too upset.about this.

[bluewater]

23. The sweeping "all westerns" doesn't get a pass. Virtually all the old ones were racist.

Just to slightly different degrees, and Biden made it clear he was talking about an old John Wayne movie his brother liked to quote.

So yeah, Presidential candidates should stop quoting the old stereotypically racist dialog put in the mouths of Native American characters.

No more "Ugh!" or "Me send Squaw" or "lying dog faced pony soldier" quips should be made in 2020, especially while campaigning as a Democratic candidate.

[whathehell]

30. Lol..Sorry, but I doubt anyone here needs a "pass" from you

Like I said, I'll wait for more reliable sources to weigh before concerning myself with this nonsense. I'm going now. Buh bye

[bluewater]

35. lol well defending old racists Westerns certainly won't get one from me.

Here is more info about depiction of Native Americans in film:

The portrayal of Native Americans in films has varied throughout the 20th century, employing stereotypes that range from violent barbarians to noble and peaceful savages.[1] A variety of images appeared from the early to mid 1930s, and by the late 1930s negative images briefly dominated Westerns. But in 1950, the watershed movie Broken Arrow appeared that many credit as the first postwar Western to depict Native Americans sympathetically. Starting in the 1990s, Native American filmmakers have attempted to make independent films that work to represent the depth and complexity of indigenous peoples as people and provide a realistic account of their culture.[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Americans_in_film

5 Common Native American Stereotypes in Film and Television

The 2013 remake of “The Lone Ranger,” featuring Native American sidekick Tonto (Johnny Depp), renewed concerns about whether the media promotes stereotypical images of Native Americans. In film and television, American Indians have long been portrayed as people of few words with magical powers.

Often the Indians in Hollywood are dressed as “warriors,” which perpetuates the notion that Natives are savages. On the other hand, Native American women are depicted as beautiful maidens sexually available to white men. Collectively, the stereotypical images of American Indians in Hollywood continue to influence public perception of this racial group.

https://www.thoughtco.com/native-american-stereotypes-in-film-television-2834655

Sometimes facing the truth about our past is painful, but it is always necessary to face the truth.

[Jedi Guy]

32. A few things you may want to consider.

"Dog face" is slang to refer to a US soldier, especially an infantryman. "Pony soldier" refers to US cavalrymen who fought the Plains Indians during the westward expansion of the United States in the 19th century. So what Joe said pretty much boils down to "dishonest infantryman cavalry soldier." It's gobbledygook.

If the line in the film was spoken by a Native American character, so what? It could just as easily have been said by a character of any race. You'd have a point if Joe did the tomahawk chop when he said it, or if he put on an eagle-feather headdress before saying it. Since he did neither of those things, you really don't have a point.

So no, what Joe said wasn't racist, and your mental gymnastics won't make it so.

[bluewater]

38. Joe himself attributed that quip to an "Indian Chief" in the recent past

https://www.dailywire.com/news/watch-joe-biden-suggests-republican-lawmaker-ryan-saavedra

NOVEMBER 1ST, 2018
WATCH: Joe Biden Suggests Republican Lawmaker Should Get Beat Up

“As my brother, who loves to use lines from movies, a John Wayne movie, there’s a good line in a movie, a John Wayne movie where the Indian chief turns to John Wayne and says ‘this is a lying dog-faced pony soldier,'” Biden rambled.

[Jedi Guy]

39. And as I asked in my post: so what?

If he'd said, "As heap big chief Squatting Horse said..." and then launched into the quote, you'd have a point, because that sort of language is racist. But that's not what he said. You keep insisting over and over that what he said is racist, and your explanation makes absolutely no logical sense. It's not racist just because you want it to be.

[bluewater]

41. We disagree then.

You do not think attributing the quip "lying dog-faced pony soldiers" to an "Indian Chief" and then repeating it on different occasions is offensive on Biden's part.

I find repeating such stereotypical depictions and dialog by a white Presidential candidate inappropriate.

Use of dialect like that in writing or movies walks was heavy handed in the past. There was no way a White character in those old movies would have been given a line like that. It's stereotypically Western "Indian chief" dialect. And Joe himself described it as just that.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/watch-joe-biden-suggests-republican-lawmaker-ryan-saavedra

NOVEMBER 1ST, 2018
WATCH: Joe Biden Suggests Republican Lawmaker Should Get Beat Up

“As my brother, who loves to use lines from movies, a John Wayne movie, there’s a good line in a movie, a John Wayne movie where the Indian chief turns to John Wayne and says ‘this is a lying dog-faced pony soldier,'” Biden rambled.

Joe should not have used that quip in the past, and he should not repeat it in the future. In my opinion.

I have run this by many people today in real life, and, being honest, all but one agreed with me. That's what my circle thought of it. I am sure your circle might agree just as strongly with you.

That's about all I can say on the matter. I disagree with you, but I am not a final authority. But neither are you.

Thanks for the discussion, and I hope you enjoy the rest of your evening.

[wisteria]

36. Grasping a straws on this one.

[jmg257]

5. He did - back in 2018...

https://www.dailywire.com/news/watch-joe-biden-suggests-republican-lawmaker-ryan-saavedra

NOVEMBER 1ST, 2018
WATCH: Joe Biden Suggests Republican Lawmaker Should Get Beat Up

“As my brother, who loves to use lines from movies, a John Wayne movie, there’s a good line in a movie, a John Wayne movie where the Indian chief turns to John Wayne and says ‘this is a lying dog-faced pony soldier,'” Biden rambled.


On Edit:

Hondo - 1953 referred to Pony Soldiers (cavalry)...
Vittorio : You are Apache. Now, hear me. Pony soldiers are near. Soon will be ford-remembered fight. They will come here first. You will not go with them, white man.
Hondo Lane : I will not.
Vittorio : Leader of pony soldiers will question you. You will say you see Apache trailing to the west.
Hondo Lane : [refusing to comply with the additional instruction] This I will not do.

She Wore a Yellow Ribbon - "Dog faced soldier"'...

At the end of She Wore a Yellow Ribbon, the narrator tells the audience: "So here they are. The dog-faced soldiers, the regulars, the fifty-cents a day professionals riding the outposts of a nation. From Fort Reno to Fort Apache...from Sheridan to Stockton...they were all the same. Men in dirty-shirt blue...and only a cold page in the history books to mark their passing. But wherever they rose and whatever they sought for, that place became the United States."

[bluewater]

6. OMG, so Joe Biden is parroting stereotpically racist dialog from old Westerns?

In 2020, while running for President, as a Democrat?

Sorry, but he really needs to apologize for that.

Quoting stereotypical racist depictions and dialog of minority characters from old movies or TV shows is simply unacceptable. This is up there with the "feets don't fail me now" Amos and Andy dialog from that racist TV show in the 1950's depicting African Americans.

We all have an obligation to call this out when we see this, especially from our politicians.

[videohead5]

11. This was in a John Wayne movie

It's what someone called John Wayne. How is it racist? I don't get it?

[George II]

16. It's "racist" because a white actor who played a Native American used the expression.....

....pretty racist, eh? Actually it wouldn't be considered "racist" if Joe Biden hadn't used the expression! The expression was in a movie made 70 years ago and this is the first time anyone called that expression "racist".

Unbelievable!

[videohead5]

25. It's just plain silly

So anything that a white actor playing a native American says is racist?

[bluewater]

17. Did John Wayne Say He Believed in White Supremacy? Fact Check: YES

Last edited Sun Feb 9, 2020, 09:56 PM - Edit history (1)

Claim

John Wayne said that he believed in white supremacy during an interview with "Playboy" magazine.


Rating

True

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/john-wayne-white-supremacy/

[oasis]

31. Wrongo! The quote referenced is NOT from the dialogue of a minority

character in the film. It's from the narrator at the films ending.

[bluewater]

37. Joe Biden attributed it to an "Indian Chief"

https://www.dailywire.com/news/watch-joe-biden-suggests-republican-lawmaker-ryan-saavedra

NOVEMBER 1ST, 2018
WATCH: Joe Biden Suggests Republican Lawmaker Should Get Beat Up

“As my brother, who loves to use lines from movies, a John Wayne movie, there’s a good line in a movie, a John Wayne movie where the Indian chief turns to John Wayne and says ‘this is a lying dog-faced pony soldier,'” Biden rambled.

It was Biden that attributed that to an "Indian Chief".

Actually, we have no definitive proof where Joe's quip came from, no one has found an exact quote yet. And that includes the movie you cited.

[oasis]

43. So what? He got his "Cowboys and Indians" mixed up. Kinda like you

mixed up "Amos 'n Andy" with Mantan Moreland. Moreland, played the character. Birmingham in many ""Charlie Chan" movies. He is the actor famous for the fearful expression, "feels don't fail me now".

[bluewater]

44. It's an expression used in a lot of places actually

(A) Catch-phrase that possibly originated during the vaudeville and chitlin' circuit days. Spoken by several African-American actors in motion pictures of the 1920s to 1940s, usually when scared by a ghost or such (whereupon the character scooted). Delivered by actor Willie Best (1913–1962) in the 1940 Bob Hope film "The Ghost Breakers"; delivered by actor Stepin Fetchit (1902–1985) in several films; often attributed to actor Mantan Moreland (1902–1973)."

According to another website called The Straight Dope, which describes its mission as
"Fighting ignorance since 1973 (It's taking longer than we thought)":
(Feets don't fail me now) was one of the catch phrases of Stepin Fetchit, an early black film performer. He basically transitioned the old racist minstrel shows from stage to screen, portraying a humble, fearful Negro caricature for the delight of white audiences. He made a lot of money doing it, but it's still a rather hateful stereotype."

The author of the entry then adds:
"I find it interesting that the phrase has survived to the present, while somehow shedding its deeply racist origins, to the point that it can apparently be used in mainstream marketing (though I haven't seen that myself and would welcome a citation). In any event, if you choose to pick up this phrase for your own usage, be very careful about your audience, lest you inadvertently cause serious offense."

But here's the thing, I am not running for President and even then I don't walk around saying "feets don't fail me now".

Joe should drop the "lying dog-face pony soldier" quip, it's simply inappropriate especially since he attributes it to an "Indian Chief".

[Loki Liesmith]

42. Wokescold nonsense

[essme]

13. Just say OK. nt

[Squinch]

28. The comment, no matter where it came from, was rude. He shouldn't have said it.

I know he was kidding, but it isn't funny to insult someone and call them a liar.

He needs to not make this kind of unforced error. His tendency to do so has always been his problem in the past, and he needs to freaking learn not to.

[Turbineguy]

29. We should make sure

we don't discus substantial topics but dwell on inconsequential, off the cuff remarks. Putin needs all the help from us he can get.

I'm not accusing anybody of being a "useful idiot", I'm saying, "Don't be a useful idiot!"

The Russians have obviously come to the conclusion that Biden is a threat to their agent, Trump. That's what's been going on since 2017 or even earlier.

We can take it for granted that the Russians have infiltrated any conservative organization that they feel has influence. The NRA was obviously a known goal but they've likely infiltrated others that have influence at a higher milieu such as the Federalist Society and such.

We can also take it for granted that they will hack the 2020 election with the full support of the GOP. In fact, based on that notion, Biden may not be the ideal candidate.

[MustLoveBeagles]

33. Thank you

[wisteria]

34. Look it up

[stonecutter357]

40. good let's go Joe !