Splitting hairs over "social democracy" versus "democratic socialism".

[DanTex]

Technically, Bernie is a "social democrat," not a "democratic socialist." People like to harp on this, as if it makes any difference whatsoever. You might think you can impress a PoliSci seminar with that. But you'd be wrong, because anyone with half a clue knows the terms are used fluidly and interchangeably in common parlance. And also by politicians and political parties.

There are political parties all over the world that call themselves "socialist" even though they are "social democratic." Bernie didn't invent that. In France, for example, the "Socialist Party" is their version of our Democrats, the major left-of-center party. Hollande, a member of the Socialist Party, was the French President before Macron. He wasn't actually a "socialist" in the sense of eliminating private enterprise or anything like that. He was a social democrat.

Bottom line is, the terms don't matter, the policies do, anyone who thinks they've "gotcha"ed Bernie by complaining about technical definitions is wrong.

[TwilightZone]

1. It's not splitting hairs.

They're not even remotely the same thing.

[DanTex]

3. In a technical sense, but it doesn't matter. See this post:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1287547637

[pnwmom]

6. Social Democrats are capitalists. Democratic Socialists are socialists.

And he's always said he's a socialist and it does matter.

[DanTex]

8. You're playing word games instead of looking at policies. That's my whole point.

[pnwmom]

25. BERNIE insists on this BRAND. And if he becomes our nominee it will become

our whole party's brand.

And it's not a WINNER. The brand itself will stop people from thinking about his policies.

EW has very similar policies and clearly identities herself as a proponent of well-regulated capitalism. That's what Bernie should have done, but he's locked into the brand he chose 40 years ago.

[Cha]

44. No.. she's being accurate with the definitions.

[msongs]

2. bernie calls himself a democratic socialist. not a technical definition, right outta his mouth....

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2015/10/13/sanders-democratic-debate-bernie-sanders-democratic-socialist-5.cnn

[DanTex]

4. As does the French Socialist Party. Who cares?

[NurseJackie]

9. We're not in France.

Even the Nordic Socialists don't like him.

[DanTex]

10. Umm, it's an example of how the term is used...

[NurseJackie]

11. If you're still explaining and justifying... you're losing.

[DanTex]

15. Except he's ahead in all the polls...

[NurseJackie]

16. He'll never be elected. It's as simple as that.

[Cornus]

37. Yes, he will!

[NurseJackie]

38. As Senator from Vermont... but that's it.

[pnwmom]

27. Not in the US. We have an actual Democratic Socialist party here and they espouse socialism

That would be like calling him a Republican and then saying the label doesn't matter because there are other Republican parties all of the world -- the Republic of France, for example.

[NurseJackie]

31. How about the Republican Guard .... it's all the same, right?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_Guard_(Iraq)

[pnwmom]

42. LOL.

[Cha]

45. How did we get to France?

[TwilightZone]

52. Deflection.

Same as it ever was.

[Cha]

54. Majorly.. imv.. something's amiss

if one has to work so hard at that.

[pnwmom]

5. Technically, Bernie is a Democratic Socialist, not a Social Democrat. He can point to the

Nordic countries all he wants, but he's called himself a Democratic Socialist ever since he stopped referring to himself simply as a socialist.

And Social Democrats aren't socialists -- they're capitalists.

Whatever the case is "all over the world" Bernie lives in America, where we have a Democratic Socialist party. And they believe in socialism. It would be as silly for Bernie to say, "I am a Democratic Socialist, but not that kind of Democratic Socialist," as for anyone else to say, "I am a Republican, but not that kind of Republican."

If you disagree, you should take this up with Bernie. I think one of the major strikes against him is that he insists on branding himself as any kind of a socialist.Though, at this point, it's probably too late. The only question is whether he has already managed to smear the whole party with the brand.

https://www.dsausa.org/about-us/what-is-democratic-socialism/#govt

We believe that the workers and consumers who are affected by economic institutions should own and control them.

Social ownership could take many forms, such as worker-owned cooperatives or publicly owned enterprises managed by workers and consumer representatives. Democratic socialists favor as much decentralization as possible. While the large concentrations of capital in industries such as energy and steel may necessitate some form of state ownership, many consumer-goods industries might be best run as cooperatives.

[NurseJackie]

7. If his campaign still needs to keep explaining this at such a late date... he's going to lose.

There's just no two way about it. If you're explaining... you're losing.

Nobody likes a Socialist, no matter how much lipstick is used... no matter how pretty the bow.

He has only himself to blame. Why shouldn't we take him at his word? Isn't that at trait that his supporters often boast about... that he is who he is and he never changes (or some such)?

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/campaigns/bernie-sanders-campaigned-for-marxist-party-in-reagan-era

The 2020 Democratic presidential primary candidate and United States senator from Vermont, now 77, often scoffs at comparisons between his brand of self-described "democratic socialism" and communism. In recent years, he has said he is merely interested in having the United States look more like Sweden, a social democracy with a broad welfare state but a well-functioning private sector.

But his personal files from his time as mayor of Burlington, from 1981 to 1989, archived at the University of Vermont, show that he supported and campaigned for the communist SWP and maintained a close relationship with its senior members. While Democrats campaigned for President Jimmy Carter in 1980 and Walter Mondale in 1984, Sanders spent the Reagan era supporting fringe Marxists with no chance of reaching the White House.

In 1980, Sanders "proudly endorsed and supported" Andrew Pulley, the party's presidential candidate, who once said that American soldiers should "take up their guns and shoot their officers." Sanders was one of three electors for Pulley on the Vermont ballot, stating in a press release: "I fully support the SWP's continued defense of the Cuban revolution."

Four years later, he backed and campaigned for the SWP presidential nominee Mel Mason, a former Black Panther, saying it was important for there to be "fundamental alternatives to capitalist ideology." During the campaign, Mason praised the Russian and Chinese revolutions and said: "The greatest example of a socialist government is Cuba, and Nicaragua is right behind, but it's still developing."

[DanTex]

12. Seems to be going pretty well for him so far...

[NurseJackie]

14. Yet here you are... still explaining on his behalf.

It's only going to get worse.

[DanTex]

17. By "worse" do you mean he will keep rising even more in the polls?

You're probably right!

[NurseJackie]

19. He'll never be elected. It's as simple as that.

Our nation will never elect a self-admitted avowed Socialist. And the treatment he's getting here is TAME compared to what the GOP would be able to dish out without fear of reprisal.

I hear lots of excuses and "explaining" about his earlier positive and glowing compliments about other communist institutions and regimes too.

Stand by, Bernie.

[DanTex]

22. If his middle name was "Hussein", you might have a point...

[Cornus]

39. What you are saying...

...is just not true!

[NurseJackie]

40. ...

[uponit7771]

50. +1

[Uncle Joe]

13. I don't care if Bernie calls himself a ham sandwich, it's the policies that matter.

Thanks for the thread DanTex.

[DBoon]

18. calling yourself a "socialist" in the USA immediately puts you outside the mainstream

It is a self identification as an outsider, analogous to calling yourself a "beatnik"

[k2qb3]

35. True enough. You think that has no value?

I think the reason this place is so worried about Bernie's label is they're completely discounting the negative connotations of their own with persuadable voters.

All that label says is he's a liberal who's not always lockstep with the D party, like almost everyone else in America.

Issues, priorities, credibility matter more than labels.

Ecology/climate have exploded as a priority over the last decade, almost half of Republicans are on board with doing more now and huge majorities of independents and Democrats. You can't take ecology seriously without questioning unfettered crony capitalism. It isn't 20 or 30 years ago anymore, Clinton style third way neoliberalism is a LOSER. To win you have to be in a position to attack your opponent where he's weak.

[ehrnst]

56. It was the Clinton administration that really started the conversation on Climate Change.

He and Al Gore were Democrats as I recall.

[k2qb3]

57. Sure.

Point wasn't "Clinton bad"

Point was 2020 isn't 1992.

We all tend to settle into a comfort zone fairly early in life and most people stay there.

I think this board skews pre-W, at least.

[andym]

20. I would like to hear Bernie's policies that DIRECTLY help Americans gain more prosperity

through the market economy. Helping with health care and college are NECESSARY to help promote entrepreneurship, but they by themselves are insufficient to satisfy this question. AN effective answer will go a long ways to allaying fears about socialism--because it will contradict the socialist narrative that Bernie and his enemies have created.
A true social Democrat would have a set of such policies.

[Thomas Hurt]

21. these terms don't matter when the right controls the narrative...

and anything socialist is evil or subhuman.

[stonecutter357]

23. lol

[cry baby]

24. What Bernie calls himself really does matter.

The word Socialism has specific meaning to older people...the most reliable voter block in the US.

When is Bernie going to turn to start to convince older Americans that “socialism” is going to benefit them? He must do that because his self-described label may cause reliable dem voters to stay home.

Frankly, I’m not sure I’m ready to defend the “socialism” word 100+ times a day if I’m walking blocks for the eventual candidate. It puts us on the defensive, not on offense like we need to be when trying to convince.

Words matter, especially the ones the candidate currently uses. You can ignore the matter, but I don’t think that saying “terms/words/definitions don’t matter” is not a winning answer.

[LanternWaste]

26. The terms obviously do matter, else no one would be lecturing so vociferously that they don't.

Bottom line is, people don't protest as much as you do over small things. Hence, the concern is not small.

[at140]

28. Bottom line is the bottom 50% in America

should be making a living wage, and get healthcare which they can afford.

[Jose Garcia]

29. He has praised communist governments and supported marxist candidates

That's enough evidence to show where his loyalties are.

[NurseJackie]

33. "his personal files from his time as mayor show he supported and campaigned for the communist SWP"

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/campaigns/bernie-sanders-campaigned-for-marxist-party-in-reagan-era

The 2020 Democratic presidential primary candidate and United States senator from Vermont, now 77, often scoffs at comparisons between his brand of self-described "democratic socialism" and communism. In recent years, he has said he is merely interested in having the United States look more like Sweden, a social democracy with a broad welfare state but a well-functioning private sector.

But his personal files from his time as mayor of Burlington, from 1981 to 1989, archived at the University of Vermont, show that he supported and campaigned for the communist SWP and maintained a close relationship with its senior members. While Democrats campaigned for President Jimmy Carter in 1980 and Walter Mondale in 1984, Sanders spent the Reagan era supporting fringe Marxists with no chance of reaching the White House.

In 1980, Sanders "proudly endorsed and supported" Andrew Pulley, the party's presidential candidate, who once said that American soldiers should "take up their guns and shoot their officers." Sanders was one of three electors for Pulley on the Vermont ballot, stating in a press release: "I fully support the SWP's continued defense of the Cuban revolution."

Four years later, he backed and campaigned for the SWP presidential nominee Mel Mason, a former Black Panther, saying it was important for there to be "fundamental alternatives to capitalist ideology." During the campaign, Mason praised the Russian and Chinese revolutions and said: "The greatest example of a socialist government is Cuba, and Nicaragua is right behind, but it's still developing."

[stopdiggin]

30. it would be helpful if more people concentrated on policies ..

but, I mean, com'on .. this is after all American politics .. (Trump .. policy?)

But Sanders has done this to himself by belligerently INSISTING on the label for himself all these years.
If you're really more interested in policies and programs .. then stop screaming "I AM A SOCIALIST" .. and refusing to walk that back even an inch in 2020.

[brewens]

32. It's like when people insist we have a republic and not a democracy. What we have is defined by

the Constitution and at least was a unique form of government the framers came up with. It never fit any dictionary description.

Sanders being elected is not going to make us any kind of socialist government. Anything he does will be within the confines of the Constitution.

[Mister Ed]

34. Oh, I get it. You get it. We all do here.

But the electorate in general is way too dumb and disinterested to try and understand the policies behind the label. Policies that would greatly benefit that same disinterested electorate.

[SidDithers]

36. Jeez. When universally accepted definitions are inconvenient...

just pretend the definitions don’t matter.

Words have meaning.



Sid

[brooklynite]

41. Fortunately there isn't any supporting evidence that he's a Socialist, like, say...

...fortunately there isn't any supporting evidence like, say, being a former member of a Socialist Party or praising authoritarian Socialist Governments, or advocating for nationalization of private industries or....

[George II]

48. Right, he isn't documented supporting or admiring socialist governments, but then again....

....the Soviet Union, Cuba, Nicaragua, and Venezuela aren't socialist governments.

[George II]

43. That's not splitting hairs. They are entirely different things:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy

Social democracy is a political, social and economic philosophy that supports economic and social interventions to promote social justice within the framework of a liberal democratic polity and a capitalist-oriented economy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism

Democratic socialism is defined as having a socialist economy in which the means of production are socially and collectively owned or controlled, alongside a democratic political system of government.

[NurseJackie]

46. Thank you. (Why do people think we're stupid?)

This really isn't that hard to understand. It's very easy to distinguish the two. Quite different... but we're told it's all the same and we're splitting hairs over inconsequential semantic differences!

Total bullshit.

[TwilightZone]

51. Sanders doesn't even appear to understand the difference.

He's been trying to pass off regulated capitalism as socialism for years.

I guess it's not surprising that his supporters don't know the difference either, though in this particular case, the "don't know" is likely a conscious decision, because it's been explained ad infinitum.

[David__77]

47. The state has been socializing big capitalists' risk for years.

It seems reasonable to socialize some more of the benefits.

[ahoysrcsm]

49. Sanders first run for Senate and Governor in the 70s for the Liberty Union Party.

LUP, is well... democratic socialism, Marxist leaning. Sanders ran as LUP candidate in '72 '74 and '76.

Sanders had this to say about the co-founder Peter Diamondstone

Diamondstone was unforgiving when his former colleague became an independent. Sanders, in a statement Thursday, aimed to assuage past divisions by noting, "Peter was a very independent thinker, unafraid to express his (often controversial) point of view on any subject. As a result, he forced people to examine and defend their own positions. No small thing. In his own way, Peter played an important role in Vermont politics for many decades."

https://www.reformer.com/stories/liberty-union-co-founder-dies-at-age-82,518253?

Your example was France? Check the USA and learn about someone's history. Talk about what our enemies could use against Sanders if he were to win the nomination...

[ms liberty]

53. It's a popular sport here, splitting hairs. n/t

[SidDithers]

55. But much less popular than "making shit up"...nt

Sid