Sanders implies Russia, not his supporters, to blame for online vitriol. Experts aren't so sure.

[RandySF]

LAS VEGAS — Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) mounted a new defense Wednesday for the toxicity emanating from pockets of his presidential campaign’s supporters, implying it was possible Russian actors were again manipulating social media to incite Democratic divisions.

Sanders’s language was indirect, offered on the debate stage here as his opponents faulted him for the behavior of his most strident fans. It drew criticism from experts in disinformation, who said they had no direct evidence the Kremlin had masqueraded as Sanders voters to interfere in the 2020 race much as Russian trolls had done four years earlier.

“All of us remember 2016, and what we remember is efforts by Russians and others to try to interfere in our elections and divide us up,” said the senator from Vermont. “I’m not saying that’s happening, but it would not shock me.”

Even the insinuation that foreign actors may be to blame for controversial online behavior by Sanders’s most dedicated followers was an extraordinary indication of the extent to which election interference looms over the 2020 contest. It illustrated how few standards exist for assessing claims of meddling by Russia or other malicious actors, which are being vetted by the very same tech giants whose platforms became host to disinformation that went undetected four years ago.



https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/02/20/sanders-implies-russia-not-his-supporters-may-be-blame-online-vitriol-experts-arent-so-sure/

[George II]

1. .

He's taking the old Alfred E. Newman position (look it up!)

[Squinch]

2. That's pitiful.

[yaesu]

3. well, we do know the russians are at it and that the orange nazi refuses to stop them. nt

[PatSeg]

4. I'm sure there is some Russian mischief

on the Internet during this primary, but there is also a lot of verifiable vitriol coming from real life Bernie supporters, not to mention his own staff.

[RandySF]

5. Many of them have blue check marks

[PatSeg]

7. Bernie is clearly in denial

Also, he's not in control of his own campaign.

[apcalc]

6. You do not want to know what I think about this.

[Renew Deal]

8. Who were the english speaking Russians that were yelling at Biden last night?

[Perseus]

12. You are kidding, you don't think there are Russians out there with perfect USA English accents?

There are tons of those.

Look at sports, and I will give you a very good example...In the LPGA (Ladies Professional Golf Association) when South Koreans started dominating in women's Golf the then Director of the LPGA came up with the crazy idea that in order for foreigners to play in the LPGA they had to learn English. That director was shown the door after that crazy idea, but the South Koreans must have decided together that they did need to learn English because they were playing the majority of the tournaments in the USA. Some of those S. Koreans speak English so well now that their accent is perfect, not all of them of course, but many of them.

How about all the Russians in Tennis, and I don't mean Sharapova who practically grew in the USA, I am talking about those who came when older and now it is hard to pinpoint their accent because they speak so well.

Of course there are plenty of Russians who speak English with perfect USA accent, and some with perfect British accent, and so on.

[Perseus]

9. How can we doubt that? Russia has just said they are going to help the creature win again

What is there to doubt? Yes, I am sure some of the supporters have been manipulated into that kind of behaviour, unfortunately the Russians learned in 2016 that USA citizens are easy to manipulate, and they are kings at that.

I don't doubt the Russians have something to do with it, and we are all being manipulated into carrying on with the bickering.

How about if we show them all that we are not going to engage in their game? Sometimes the best defense is ignoring the attacks.

[sheshe2]

10. He denied all interference in 2016

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/16/bernie-sanders-russia-2016-election-interference-415691

Now claims interference. Hmmm.

Yet...

Researchers have found some of the most divisive tweets and memes during the 2020 election originate with specific, verified Sanders supporters. That includes the viral #mayorcheat hashtag that attacked Buttigieg for ties between the former mayor’s presidential campaign and Iowa caucus organizers, said Ben Nimmo, director of investigations at Graphika.

“Russian operations have a track record of amplifying American divisions, but I’ve not seen any evidence to suggest that the Bernie bro phenomenon is the result of Russian interference,” Nimmo said.

Online discourse has become so polarized this election cycle that “you don’t need Russians to inflame it,” he said, adding: “Americans are doing it to each other. And saying that it’s caused by Russian operators without presenting any evidence just makes it harder to address either problem — American polarization or genuine Russian interference.”

Ball is back in your court Bernie.

[Me.]

11. Well, The Way I See It

there were only 2 Dem candidates in '16. now only one of them is running again.

[Perseus]

13. Russians throw a small snowball and USA citizens make an avalanche not knowing who started it

That is the way it always works, and we are buying it.

When we stop the bickering they will go away to try something new, but as long as we continue to feed their plan, it will get worst.

[sheshe2]

15. You don't watch the news much do you.

Nor the congressional hearings.

You are a believer that Russia did not meddle in our elections? They are doing it again 2020. It is no small snowball.

[Fiendish Thingy]

14. After today's news about the National Security briefing to Congress, we can't rule it out

Congress was told bluntly that not only do the Russians want influence the election in November, but they want to interfere with the Democratic primaries too.

[Cha]

16. Proof?

[Julian English]

17. Purely anecdotal, but my experience is many of the Sanders' online supporters are vitriolic

On twitter I have received far more ad hominem attacks than from tRump supporters. Most of the abusive replies I have seen made to several of the "mainstream" Democratic candidates and Democratic supporters come from supporters of Sanders. Many of these attacks are the same one the tRumpers use. Likewise, most of retweets of negative new stories about another Democrat candidate are from Sanders' supporters. Again, these same

I see myself as relatively far left. I believe in a wealth tax, a guaranteed minimum income, gun control, revisions of the inheritance and gift taxes and general tax reform, single payer healthcare (with reform on drug pricing), meaningful prison and bail reform, reigning in Defense spending, immediate climate action, student debt relief and reform in college/graduate school costs,and lots more.

But, despite being to the left of Sanders on many of my beliefs, I am also a realist.

I know that a president alone can't get such a level of reform alone and without Congress. A president will need to be able to show the political acumen to create a coalition (or, in tRump's case, have Rupert Murdoch, the Russians, and other low-life manufacture one). When I ask Sanders supporter how Sanders plans to create such a coalition, the few responses I've received either talk about other politicians being corrupt or have been ad hominem attacks.

As a realist and someone with medical training, Sanders age and health raise questions for me. The life expectancy for most 78 y/o men after a heart attack is only around 3 years. (I will say he looks heaalthy than tRump, but so have a number of men I know who had MIs at this age. They all died inside in 5 years or less) Sanders supporters I ask about this generally don't respond to this question. They switch topics. When they do respond they deny the studies or resort to with more ad hominem attacks. You might as well show tRumpers the picture that show how bad tRump's make-up is. They just won't believe it or say the pictures are photoshopped.

The Sanders supporters also seem unable to let go 0f 2016. I witnessed repeated claims that Bernie really won the primaries in 2016 but somehow Clinton and the DNC rigged it so she won the nomination. Further, I keep hearing from Sanders supporters either that the Russians (and Assange) didn't worked to defeat Clinton or that she deserved it because she was corrupt. Heaven help you if point out these are tRumper talking points.

The most popular and depressing claims I heard recently made by Sanders supporters are (1) everyone knows Sanders is going to win and (2) if he doesn't win, it's because the DNC and the elite have it rigged.

Beyond the fact these two uncannily echoes tRump's assertions in 2016, it shows a profound ignorance of the workings of the primary system, a contempt for the Democratic Party, and unwitting admission that these Sanders supporters lack faith in he ability of Sanders to unite the party behind him.

I will add two things.

First, I know lots of Sanders supporters in real life who don't act like these online knuckleheads. I can discuss most of these issues with them rationally, and have learned from them.

Second, that if Sanders wins the Democratic nomination, he gets my support 110%. He's not in my top 3 or 4, but he's still a world better than tRump.

[Laelth]

19. Thanks for that excellent post. n/t

-Laelth

[ehrnst]

18. Experts Call BS on Bernie's Russian Bot Theory

The Daily Beast reached out to experts in tracking disinformation to see if there was any evidence of Russian involvement in the feud between Sanders supporters and the Nevada Culinary Workers Union. None could point to a specific example of Russia-linked personas imitating pro-Bernie personas and attacking members of the Nevada Culinary Workers Union.

Ben Nimmo, director of investigations at the disinformation-tracking firm Graphika, told The Daily Beast that, after 2016, Russian trolls have tried harder to stay undetected, making finding them a tricky process.

“Actually proving that a particular account is run from Russia means crossing a high evidence bar. There are far more accusations of ‘Russian trolls’ or ‘Russian bots’ going around than there are actual known Russian assets that have been taken down.”

Oftentimes, Russian covert operations on social media act as echo chambers for the issues and priorities of overt Russian propaganda outlets like Sputnik and RT. Jessica Brandt, director of research at the Alliance for Securing Democracy, which tracks Russian state news trends and disinformation, said Russian outlets haven’t made much of the Nevada union feud.

“We’ve seen no evidence of that,” she told The Daily Beast, adding that the Alliance’s dashboard for tracking overt Russian propaganda turned up only one story on the Nevada issue.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/experts-call-bs-on-bernies-russian-bot-theory