Explain to me why bad behavior by some Sanders supporters is an indictment of him again?

[Bonobo]

So many posts here are devoted to showing that Sanders is somehow bad because we can find, among his supporters, people that act badly.

Those posts rest upon a very shaky logical base.

I'm not entirely sure I understand it because:

1) We know that all candidates have some supporters that behave badly. To pretend otherwise would be silly. Of course, many will advance the idea that Sanders has MANY, or a large proportion, of poorly behaving people. But this is not based upon hard evidence, but rather a sort of "feeling" combined with self-selective searching for such examples, aka, cognitive bias.

2) It is not clear what the logic is. Is it something like: *If Sanders attracts bad people, then he must be a bad or dangerous person*? Okay, let's go with that for a minute. First of all, #1 above already does lots of damage to that argument, but furthermore, one person's bad behavior can often be another person's "passion" or "commitment". Be honest with yourself and admit that in some cases, that is true. But another thing is, they could ALSO be counter-operatives muddying the water to stir up bad feelings among Dems or to make Sanders look bad. We KNOW such things do happen, but not how often.

3) We are here to discuss candidates and not supporters. The entire idea of casting mud upon a candidate with such posts is rather ridiculous on the face of it. I mean, when you get into the thousands, let alone the tens of millions of supporters, you cannot prevent these things. And the power of one person (one idiot's) voice magnified by Twitter is truly something. Especially when cherry-picked and disseminated as "proof" of a candidate being a bad actor.

[PubliusEnigma]

1. "There were good people on both sides!"

[ucrdem]

2. Leadership.

If that's where Bernie is leading, some of us don't want to go there. Buttigieg explained this well last night.

[Bonobo]

5. People in an unjust society have rage. That is to be expected.

Witnessing anger is often distressing for people, especially those that are comfy.

But in a democratic country, it is far from undesirable. It is, in fact, what the system is designed to encourage.

[ucrdem]

22. The system is designed to encourage legislative progress toward shared goals.

Yes it permits certain behaviors. Nevertheless the type of leader who cynically exploits such behavior is a bad one in my book. YMMV

[projectiboga]

30. The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson

I'm a pacifist, just posting what one of our founders felt about how power would likely coalesce and need to be broken up to restore freedom. The federal system is designed to enforce property rights, including slavery, which was ended by lawbreaking (the underground railroad was illegal), and war. Slavery wasn't ended though legislative progress toward shared goals.

[ucrdem]

35. Perhaps but if that described the current state of affairs we'd need a Robespierre, not a Lincoln.

I'll take a Lincoln.

[sheshe2]

31. Exactly, ucrdem.

I get angry, yet impossible for me to stay angry and I am never enraged. One has to focus on the future and do something and not rage about it.

[ucrdem]

36. Exactly sheshe!

And working his crowds into a lather over Obamacare is not helpful at all.

[sheshe2]

41. Yep.

So good to see ya, ucrdem.

Late. Gotta go.

[ucrdem]

42. ...

[sheshe2]

43. Sweet dreams

Not sure if you are old enough to remember them...

[showblue22]

3. People emulate their leaders. nt

[sheshe2]

32. Well said.

They do.

Follow me I'm the Pied Piper.

[TomCADem]

4. Explain to me why bad behavior by some Trump supporters is an indictment of him again?

Bernie argument that "all campaigns need to crack down," brings to mind Trump's "all sides" defense of his racist supporters. Can Bernie do more? Absolutely. What can Bernie do? Well, here are some examples:

First, President Obama was class personified even in the midst of a campaign. He was respectful of John McCain:

John McCain, in turn, was not afraid to disagree with supporters who were spouting the worst Fox News attacks on President Obama:

In sharp contrast, Bernie's campaign has argued that reports about the behavior of supporters are not true and due to media bias or they have tried to argue that everyone behaves the way their supporters due. Even as his surrogates actively encourage attacks on well known Democrats:

Bernie has made a career of burning down the Democratic party to elevate himself. His unwillingness to accept responsibility in reminiscent of Trump. The next time Bernie Sanders campaign cheer leads the booing of another Democrat, consider the example of President Obama:

[Bonobo]

10. Here are links that support the idea that Sanders is conciliatory.

https://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/bernie-sanders-booed-convention-226136

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/bernie-sanders-email-supporters-799468/

https://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/289160-sanders-asks-supporters-not-to-boo-protest-during

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/oct/02/bernie-sanders-defends-hillary-clinton-recording

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/10/25/13403088/bernie-clinton-emails

[sheshe2]

33. Thank you.

[33taw]

6. This is not unique to Bernie.

When John McCain’s supporters started disparaging Barrack Obama, he stopped them. Bernie doesn’t lead, he let’s them go on and passes the buck.

Just saw above post

[TomCADem]

8. At Bernie/Trump's Rallies, Bernie's Campaign Eggs On Supporters...

...whether its booing the last Democratic nominee or booing the "Democratic establishment," Bernie's campaign encourages such behavior in Trump-like fashion.

[Bonobo]

13. News flash: Booing isn't that big of a deal.

Where did we get the idea it was?

It is an expression of disfavor and political rallies are places for such expressions.

Booing is a non-violent form of expression.

Why on earth is it so objectionable?

Do you expect politeness at political rallies when we are MUCH more uncivil to each other at DU as one example?

Booing is a very mild thing indeed.

[TomCADem]

16. Booing Your Own Party? The Last Democratic Nominee?

Bernie is running for the Democratic nomination. Not the Republican nomination. This is why I can't support Bernie. He has built his career on trashing his would be allies and throwing them under the bus.

[Bonobo]

17. Freedom of expression.

It's double-edged.

Anyway, one has to accept that there are many people who feel that way.

You can disagree but it doesn't change that such feelings exist among people who are liberals and progressives.

And, in a democracy, those voices WILL hopefully find representation.

[33taw]

20. Why sis you ask? Just to harass or to find out why we felt that way.

This isn’t a discussion, it is your attempt to support bad behavior.

[Bonobo]

23. Is harassing and finding out why people feel that way similar in ANY WAY?

What a strange statement.

[33taw]

34. You are justifying bad behavior with freedom of expression.

You don’t want to know why anyone feels Bernie has a responsibility to reel in his supporters for bad behavior. You want to tell us why we are wrong. So you pick a fight. Have a good night.

[TomCADem]

39. Not Arguing That Trump/Bernie's Incitements Against Democrats...

Last edited Fri Feb 21, 2020, 11:02 AM - Edit history (2)

...is not protected by the First Amendment. But that does not mean that I have to support Bernie/Trump's attacks on the Democratic Party?

To the contrary, this just confirms that I also have the freedom to express my disagreement and disapproval of them as a possible President.

[sheshe2]

38. Booing Black members at the convention is mild now?

Bonobo
13. News flash: Booing isn't that big of a deal.

Where did we get the idea it was?

It is an expression of disfavor and political rallies are places for such expressions.

Guess you missed the Convention.

Almost as soon as the gavel echoed, ardent supporters of Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders hijacked the opening moments of the Democratic National Convention in Philadelphia Monday, repeatedly booing mentions of Hillary Clinton, chanting Sanders’ name and turning what was supposed to be a celebration of party unity into an ugly family feud.

It was a disastrous start to a four-day televised event that was supposed to showcase Democratic unity. Inside the arena, Sanders supporters repeatedly disrupted the proceedings on stage, drowning out a series of black elected officials at the podium. Outside the arena, some Sanders supporters tried to block buses carrying delegates from entering the secured complex.

THIS DURING THE OPENING PRAYER

From the opening prayer, in which Rev. Dr. Cynthia Hale invoked Clinton’s name, almost every reference of the presumptive Democratic nominee’s drew boos from hundreds of vocal Sanders delegates and supporters. Some delegates borrowed a chant from last week’s Republican convention in Cleveland, shouting, “Lock her up!”

https://time.com/4422889/democratic-convention-protests-opening/

Nice crowd. They booed every black leader that spoke. They are NOT part of our party.

[relayerbob]

7. Explain why you have to rationalize for him again?

It's been going on for years. By people that I used to like and know. His staff encourages it, on a near daily basis.

He doesn't say stop, he tries to give false equivalencies.

That's what the other side does.

Take responsibility for one's actions is my motto. He doesn't appear interested in doing that. Blame someone else, always. We already have that in DC, don't need more of it

[Bonobo]

12. Rationalize is a loaded term.

I am actually DENYING the claims as being "feeling rather than fact" based.

Once the Bernie Bro myth was established, there began a cognitive bias in favor of seeing things in a certain way.

To be quite clear, if Bernie behaved as "Alpha Male" ish as Biden, he would REALLY be in trouble from that POV.

[relayerbob]

24. The sadly long list of former "friends" and acquaintances ...

I have blocked on FB alone would suggest otherwise, and that includes a number of people I have met in person, whom I actually considered friends at one point or another.

Perhaps the bias actually works in the opposite way, and that once a group has become accustomed to bad behavior they choose to turn a blind eye, or even condone the behavior? Calling someone a liar, a shill, a "Republican" or other names, insulting and/or otherwise berating someone who simply chooses to approach a problem from a different angle is inappropriate behavior. If I see someone do that, among my peers and friends, I call them on it, and tell them to stop. I repeatedly tell people that all the Democrats are our allies, and we cannot fight one another. Differences of opinion do not include yelling and disrupting campaign events or nationally televised events.

As a long time manager in senior leadership positions, with significant amounts of leadership and management training, if I saw such behavior, or had it reported to me, that individual would be in serious trouble, and if it continued they would've been looking for a new line of work. Even if someone who agreed with me in a company meeting, started screaming "liar" at someone who disagreed with me, that person would be in some serious deep shit. That's not theory, that's not feeling. These are facts and personal observances and personal histories.

And your insinuation about Biden is clearly leaning way over the edge there. THAT'S some pretty serious cognitive bias, right there. I would ask who is the one constantly raising his voice and shouting at everyone around him, demanding attention, and demanding respect? That sort of behavior filters down, and we have a President who has generated such hate in his followers through his constant berating, that they get violent. I'm not saying Sanders is like that at all, but his actions and way he expresses himself flow down through his organization, through the people he has chosen to work for him and beyond. Respect for a leader is earned through actions, not demanded by sheer volume and anger.

Sadly, he has not shown himself to be a leader, in my estimation. I used to like him, gave him a lot of money in 2015/6, and even got to see him, meet his then campaign manager, stand next to his wife in the front row at the event and shake his hand. But, as I have watched him since then, he clearly is not Presidential material, and the behavior that makes him not, is exactly the behavior that is being reproduced by a fairly small, but very aggressive, and pretty easily identified, percentage of his followers.

[HarlanPepper]

14. If only there was a word for people so devoted to a cause they lose their ability to reason.

[Gravitycollapse]

9. It's a tricky subject. Leaders are responsible when they encourage behavior.

Sanders has never done this. That he doesn't do "enough" to condemn it is a subjective interpretation heavily biased by one's own political allegiance. For some, nothing Sanders says will ever be enough because they believe (falsely) that he is encouraging such behavior and anything he says will simply be seen as a dog whistle for his supporters.

[RockRaven]

11. Wow. Such rational. So logic. Wow.

Doge is bow-wowed.

[ChubbyStar]

15. Who is Doge?

[msongs]

18. random moronic behavior everywhere, official candidate spokespersons is different nt

[Bonobo]

19. Agreed. But I'm referring to the "Sanders supporters are..." posts. nt

[jg10003]

21. Trolls will always exist. Bernie can't stop them, no one can.

To expect Bernie to continually apologize for something that is not his fault and can't control is ridiculous.
Besides, who knows what their real motivations are; sowing discord among dems, making Bernie look bad, or just enjoying all the attention they get (like here on DU). The best way to handle trolls is to ignore them. Deny them the attention they seek and they will get bored and go back to 4chan and their RPGs'.

Let's stop letting a bunch of 14 year-old bullies (of all ages) dictate our primary. I propose that henceforth the term "bernie bros" be banished from DU. Let us stick to who has the best policies and who can defeat trump. Let's stop getting sucked into the worst part of the internet.

[kcr]

25. Two reasons

He chooses to hire people who encourage this behavior and engage in it themselves and then refuses to acknowledge the problem exists by claiming they aren't really supporters of his.

[DonaldsRump]

26. If BS was a D Senator, I might give him some credibility n/t

[Horizens]

27. Explain to me why bad behavior by some Sanders supporters is an indictment of him again?

Explain to me why bad behavior by some TRUMP supporters is an indictment of him again?

[pnwmom]

28. Because his personality is what draws them to him.

And repels the 70% who aren't in his camp.

[demosincebirth]

29. Thats the type of voters he appeals to - "the impossible dream."

[wryter2000]

37. No

Other candidate's supporters do not act like Bernie's. Plus, it's not just his supporters. It's people on his staff.

[mtron32]

40. Calls for civility is the sword of the empowered.

I've lurked on this forum for quite some time and the the amount dismay over "Bernie Bros" leaves me wondering why is our side so weak willed and thin skinned? The internet has been around for over a couple generations and you still haven't come to terms with the fact that some people say mean stuff?

I'd like to ask those candidates a follow up question when they put their pearls away: "What do you think Trump and his supporters are going to throw at you if you make it past these "Bernie Bros?" Whomever our nominee is will have to be able to deal with and clap back at the attacks when they come. I think every candidate on the stage knows this and assuming I'm right, the whole reason for the media/candidate obsession with Bernie Bros is to tear down Bernie so they can win, politics. In that case, I can fully appreciate the gamesmanship but I have to ask many here, why are YOU so obsessed with it?

Now when we get to the general, do you want a party full of civil upstanding democrats? Or do you want some junk yard dogs ready to tear some alt right ass off? I prefer the later, tired of being in the party of the weak.

[Gothmog]

44. Vetted sanders delegates who represented sanders and his campaign are not random people

Normally going to a national convention is a once in a life time experience. I have worked really hard inside the party on campaigns and voter protection issues for a very long time to earn this trip. Too bad that sanders and his vetted delegates ruined that experience and did their best to help trump. A candidate has absolute approval rights over their pledged delegates because these delegates can change their votes and these delegates represent the candidate and campaign. I helped vet Clinton delegates and I know that I was vetted. The Clinton campaign told us that we represent her and that our actions would reflect on her and her campaign.

In contrast, sanders sent one very weak text the Sunday night before the convention and then did little or nothing to control his delegates. It was nasty I was there when the sanders delegates booed Congressman John Lewis. I was warned about this stunt 30 minutes before it happened by the Clinton campaign whip. According to my whip, sanders was asked to stop this event and declined. That incident will be used against sanders by Russia to suppress the African American vote just as was done in 2016

Link to tweet

Russia will just run material showing sanders delegates booing John Lewis, Elijah Cummings and others to suppress the vote of African American voters and I feel that this tactic would be very effective

I was at the Texas delegation breakfast when a group of sanders delegates marched in and demanded that we condemn Clinton and change our votes to sanders.

sanders spoke to the Texas delegation the next morning and his speech was again solely about himself. There was a mini-riot due to his delegates the prior morning and the only thing that sanders talked about was himself. sanders did nothing to deal with the fact that his delegates were out of control and did nothing to try to help Hillary Clinton win the general election.

Finally a group of sanders delegates yelled at my daughter and called her the c-Word because she would not try to get me to change my vote. Again sanders was asked to tell his delegates to behave during the convention and sanders refused

[ibegurpard]

45. a lot of people just flat-out hate his guts

and blame him for 2016. Is that fair? I don't think so but it is what it is. So they are looking for any excuse to trash him or anyone who supports him. It's why I was hoping he wouldn't run again. He's just too divisive whether you agree that it's his fault or not.